Talk:Battle of Donbas (2022)

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sawol (talk | contribs) at 07:21, 3 October 2023 (ClueBot III: archiveprefix parameter). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 07:21, 3 October 2023 by Sawol (talk | contribs) (ClueBot III: archiveprefix parameter)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Donbas (2022) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Not moved, 23 February 2023, to War in Donbas (2022–present), see discussion.
Not moved, 27 March 2023, to Donbas campaign, see discussion.
Not moved/withdrawn, 29 July 2023, from Battle of Donbas (2022–present) to Battle of Donbas, see discussion.
Moved, 31 August 2023, from Battle of Donbas (2022–present) to Battle of Donbas (2022), see discussion.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

International relations

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Military history: European / Russian & Soviet / Post-Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	European military history task force
	Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Russia: Military / Politics and law Mid‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Russian, Soviet, and CIS military history task force.
	This article is supported by the politics and law of Russia task force.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Ukraine High‑importance

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Битва за Донбас (2022) from the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2023

This edit request to Battle of Donbas (2022–present) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The Russian offensive (April 2022 - May 2023) section is wrong and is overlapping the Ukrainian Fall counteroffensives (September-November 2022). DitorWiki (talk) 04:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Russian offensive (April 2022 - May 2023) section is to be divided like the following.

Section is two divide into two parts.

First Russian offensive (April-August)

Ukrainian counteroffensive

(August - November)

Second Russian offensive (November 2022-June 2023. DitorWiki (talk) 15:57, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: How to divide it? Where to add the new headers? Lightoil (talk) 07:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Fixed; The article no longer contains info about the counteroffensive as part of its scope. HappyWith (talk) 16:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 31 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 02:05, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Donbas (2022–present) → Battle of Donbas (2022) – This article started out in a pretty reasonable state, after officials on both sides of the war announced a “Battle of Donbas” in spring-summer 2022. However, since then, the article has quietly, unreasonably ballooned in scope to cover every single thing that happens in the Donbas in the war from then on, despite there being zero sources that still call ongoing activities the “battle of (the) Donbas”, or the “battle for (the) Donbas” in a more than figurative way.

To the contrary, I will prove in this nomination that reliable sources actually consider the “battle” - or “offensive” or whatever you want to call it - to have ended in late summer 2022, at some point after Russia captured the twin cities Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk and before Ukraine started its twin counteroffensives in the autumn of that year.

There are not many sources to draw on here - mostly because the terminology “battle of Donbas” completely fell off in usage almost immediately after the announcements - but the ones that are available are pretty clear about the scope. AXIOS wrote in late August that the 2022 Kherson counteroffensive “likely marks the start of a third phase of the war, following Russia’s initial three-pronged assault and the grinding battle in the Donbas.” The “battle in the donbas” is clearly considered to have ended as a “phase” of the war with the beginning of the counteroffensives. This is, in fact, the same grouping of events Misplaced Pages already uses to separate sections of the war at Russian invasion of Ukraine and Timeline of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and this very wiki article calls it the “second phase” already.

Military experts and commentators also use the terminology to describe a specific phase and offensive of the war which has since ended, rather than as all activity in Donbas since summer 2022. Rob Lee and Michael Kofman, writing for the Foreign Policy Research Institute in an article titled “How the Battle for the Donbas Shaped Ukraine’s Successes”, state: “Ukraine’s successes in Kherson and Kharkiv were largely a result of the losses it inflicted on the Russian military in the Battle for the Donbas in the spring and early summer.” They describe the ending of the campaign, saying “Russia’s advances in the Donbas, from April to July, proved to be a pyrrhic victory, tactical successes at the expense of strategic vision. Russia expended valuable manpower and artillery ammunition, while Ukraine pursued a defense-in-depth strategy. By September, NATO arms deliveries had reduced Russia’s critical advantage in artillery and Moscow didn’t have sufficient forces or ammunition to hold the territory occupied, which set the stage for Ukraine’s successful offensives.” The Institute for the Study of War also puts the ending roughly in Summer 2022, stating: “Russia lost the initiative in summer 2022 after its offensive in Donbas culminated.”

These bounds are a bit rough and imprecise, I admit, but we are covering an ongoing war, and the specifics are going to be a little bit blurry. My tentative proposal is to place the end date immediately before the beginning of Ukraine’s 2022 counteroffensives, but this is something that editors can decide in further discussion threads. I think from the evidence I’ve showed, it is clear that the campaign is not ongoing and did indeed end in mid-2022, and so should be moved. I should also note: This proposal is formatted as an RM, but will also necessitate a significant downsizing and rewriting of the article, with all out-of-scope material either transferred to higher-scope articles like Eastern Ukraine campaign or deleted if it’s already covered in relevant places. There will also need to be a lot of links removed from pages that will now be out of the scope of the article. I think this is a manageable amount of refactoring. HappyWith (talk) 19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Support: Only a few RS who use "Battle of Donbas" say the battle is over. The current title violates WP:OR and causes WP:OR violations not only in this article but in other articles. Parham wiki (talk) 11:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment. My general understanding is that the Russian Donbas offensive has made little or no progress in months and Russian forces have been forced to go to on the defensive. But the capture of the Donbas oblasts remains a top Russian objective and continues to influence Russian actions (e.g., devoting significant resources to holding Bakhmut, symbol of the only Russian “success” of 2023). —Michael Z. 16:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Combat is still taking place in the Donbas now, yes - but fighting was also taking place before officials announced the "battle for the Donbas" had started in April 2022. It makes a lot more sense to have "Battle of Donbas" refer to that specific summer offensive, which was followed by the 2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive and later the abortive Russian winter campaign, and now the eastern sector of the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive. My argument in the RM is that most sources agree with my interpretation, using "Battle of Donbas" in a limited sense to refer to that specific offensive later than all fighting in Donbas since April '22. Fighting before and after the summer 2022 offensive can, and is covered in Eastern Ukraine campaign. HappyWith (talk) 16:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The Russian 2022 winter campaign still aimed at taking the Donbas, including Bakhmut and Vuhledar. When I hear “battle of the Donbas” I think of this too. I believe it’s a synonym for Eastern Ukraine campaign, whether we choose to differentiate the two or not. —Michael Z. 18:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment This is part of the eastern Ukraine campaign; whether it is a distinct part is another question (per Michael). It was marked by the Russian redeployment of troops from the northern areas and a patriotic war cry that was taken by the press but this has petered out in usage with no distinct end. We should certainly not suggest that it does have a distinct end. Like most of our articles in this area, it is constructed as an agglomeration of NEWSORG (or similar) bulletins and therefore substantially fails to be an encyclopedic article. If a concerted effort were made to bash this into shape, I suspect it would be very much reduced. Whether that would be sufficient to justify a stand-alone article or whether it should just be subsumed back into the eastern Ukraine campaign is a very reasonable question. The same might be said for the other articles that are "phases" of the overall campaign. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Support change of scope. This would finally differentiate this article with Eastern Ukraine campaign. I am thinking that we could make this article cover the second phase of the war, and Eastern Ukraine campaign, Southern Ukraine campaign, Northeastern Ukraine campaign and Kyiv offensive (2022) (these last two should be merged) could cover the initial Russian blitzes of the first phase. Then the two 2022 counteroffensives could cover the third phase, maybe this thing along with Battle of Bakhmut and Battle of Vuhledar the fourth, and the 2023 counteroffensive the fifth. Because current analysis on the war seems to divide it into five phases. We have a lot of overlapping articles right now. My only issue would be the title. "Battle of Donbas" is barely used and the use of 2022 in the title overlaps with the Russian offensives following Ukraine's counteroffensives. But it's better than keeping the article as is. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 10:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move cleanup

I've already merged most of the out-of-scope material to Eastern Ukraine campaign, but there's still some stuff that needs to be done. The stats in "Casualties" include stuff after September, for instance, which I've marked. It would also be really good to have some sort of conclusion or "Aftermath" section to wrap the article up, rather than it just ending abruptly at the end of August like it does now. HappyWith (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Sloviansk offensive into Battle of Donbas (2022)

(Proposed after discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen?)

There isn't much of significance in the Sloviansk offensive article that can't be effectively covered in Battle of Donbas (2022). It mostly consisted of Russia repeatedly bashing infantrymen against Ukrainian fortifications south of Izium over and over until the 2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive - which is covered just fine in other articles. Even though it's been over a year since the events, large amount of the material is also just not independently confirmed, leaving even less notable events in the Sloviansk offensive article. It makes most sense to cover the notable stuff in the Donbas battle article, since it was one of the prongs of that offensive. HappyWith (talk) 22:40, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and per discussion at the talk page of the article proposed to be merged. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen? Cinderella157 (talk) 01:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen? Parham wiki (talk) 09:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and discussion at Talk:Sloviansk offensive#Did anything actually happen?. Jebiguess (talk) 03:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose As ISW and others have discussed, the operation was pretty notable/decisive precisely because the Russians failed, both initially and later on. A successful drive and exploitation could have had very serious consequences. Instead, the Russians ended up having to take a more frontal approach, leading to limited and Pyrrhic gains.

The main Battle of Donbas article has a far larger scope, and any weaknesses in the current article don’t reflect on the topic. In fact, the current revision doesn’t contain a lot of the substantive discussion found in sources, probably because it was only recently moved to its current title.

I would also suggest that the skirmishing around Velyka Komyshuvakha and Husarivka be covered, as well as the Russian mistakes in troop dispositions and force-to-space ratios that set the stage for the Ukrainian counterblow, which is fairly extensively discussed by sources.

Unfortunately I completely missed out on that previous, closed, discussion which others have linked to.

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 10:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

We could divide this campaign into many several subcampaigns. If Russia took Siversk it could have also been bad. Also if they took Avdiivka, or Vuhledar. We can't give articles to every subaxes of this campaign, and I am not convinced the fighting north of Sloviansk was particularly more notable than the others. Plus, A successful drive and exploitation could have had very serious consequences. is speculation. Instead, the Russians ended up having to take a more frontal approach, leading to limited and Pyrrhic gains. can apply for the whole campaign, or for the whole invasion itself. If this article got into a better shape and became longer, we could discuss a split in the future. But currently both the proposed merged article and the proposed target article do not cover the fighting north of Sloviansk in great detail. In my view having everything neatly packed into one article will make expansion easier, at least in this one case. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Is it really over though?

Battles of Donetsk suburbs were merged in, but they had lot of stuff happening AFTER Kharkiv counteroffensive. when you look at some winter offensive battles (like Bakhmut and Vuhledar), it says that they are part of the battle of donbass.

Main offensive probably ended, but they are still fighting for Dobass Slimebor (talk) 07:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the so-called "second phase" of the war, from the Russian retreat from the north of Ukraine to Ukraine's counteroffensives. Russian advance slowed down after taking Lysychansk and started focusing mainly on the Bakhmut direction. It only started gaining traction after Ukraine's two counteroffensives had ended, accordingly they are defined by some as the "third phase" and the battle for Bakhmut (among others) as the "fourth phase". It makes sense from an organizational and historiographic point of view. Also worth noting that fighting was also taking place in Donbas before the start date here anyway. Perhaps another title could make the article's scope more evident. After the fall of Lysychansk I don't think we could say Russia pulled any offensive aimed at taking the whole of Donbas. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Categories: