Talk:Faisal of Saudi Arabia

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Old comments

Does anybody know who was behind the assassination? It is odd that I've never even seen any theories!

One theory that I read of was that King Fahd was indirectly responsible for it. He was the Minister of Interior at the time he order the execution of Khaled bin Musaid for killing a guard. King Feisal took the blame for it. And it was Khaled's brother Faisal bin Musaid who shot the late loveable King Faisal. King Fahd supposedly convinced Faisal bin Musaid that the late King Faisal was the killer and not him.

The writer/social anthropologist Madawi Al Rasheed writes that they had to leave Saudi Arabia after 1975..as her fathers sisters son Prince Faisal bin Musad had assassinated his paternal uncel, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia. Nothing is mentioned about the Rashidi connection on the Prince Faisal bin Musad page, perhaps it should be? I am presently reading the book by Madawi Al Rasheed, does anybody else have a knowledge/opinion about it? -Look at the Rashidi page and discussion site for ref. Huldra 00:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Article name

There was a proposal that Faisal of Saudi Arabia be renamed and moved to King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, but no debate.

Faisal bin Musad not King Faisal nephew as wrote in article he is son of Musad the younger brother of King , CIA was behind the assassination coz they gives the assassination plan while Faisal Bin Musad was in USA Qatarson 11:22, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

- Please; sources? References? Huldra 00:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Protocols

Is there a source for his interest in the Elders of Zion propaganda? --Skritek 05:09, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

--Why should we include a section on what he thinks about Jews? Do we have a similar section, say in a Menachem Begin article, as to what he thinks about muslims? If anything, I think we should have a section titled "controversies" or something along those lines, and mention it there among other things. Otherwise, it sounds as if criticizing or stereotyping Jews is different and more serious than doing the same thing to other ethnicities and races of the World. -Ur

-- I feel you're right about this one, there's no reason to include a section on everyones biography about what they though about the Jews. thestick 03:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Assasination Theories

Any theory which may suggest outside intervention because his actions regarding oil caused great tubulence in the energy hungry industriliazed countires. Perhaps CIA??? I am also surprised there is no discussion here regarding that. Living in the middleast, I often came across people touching this subject almost always as if it was a western (popularly) US assisted assasination. omerlivesOmerlives 12:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is very likely that his assassination was a plot from within the family, probably by king Fahd himself. And yes, it is also likely the Americans assisted him, to get revenge from Faysal, because he's the one who masterminded the oil embargo against pro-Zionist western states during the 1973 October war.

Stop it

Beit Or can you stop blindly reverting my edits, esp. when I am giving the article a more logical order. I also added a source for the fact that he was a fan of a roick group. Also, your implicit declarations that I'm "stalk" you are offensive and uncivil. If you have any objections to the sources, please state them here.Bless sins 18:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

See WP:STALK. You never edited this article before, only reverted my contributions, minutes after I made them. Regarding your comment on content, Jews are not a "foreign nation", and making antisemitic attacks is not "relations" with Jews, just antisemitism. Beit Or 18:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not revert your edits. Yes, I shifted content around, and re-sectioned the article. His comments are mostly regarding Israel. Jews can be considered a nation that is foreign to Saudi Arabia. Nation: A nation is not a state, and while traditionally monocultural, it may also be multicultural in its self-definition. Also "relations is the most NPOV way to put his comments. In anycase, Faisal is far more noted for other things. WP:NPOV#Undue_weight demands we give very little weight to this issue.Bless sins 18:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems Beit Or, that you are not interested in improving this article, rather just throwing dirt at the man.Bless sins 18:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

We can't give his attitudes towards Jews a section as they are notable in his career. Infact that quote of him must be reduced per WP:NPOV/Undue_weight. He is known far more for other aspects.Bless sins 22:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely his attitude towards Jews - who are not a "foreign nation" - are far more notable than the lyrics to Grateful Dead songs.Proabivouac 23:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes and I have removed neither. You on the other hand, are selectively removing content. I am saying that his quote on Israel should be shortened for sake of due wieght. Jews are foreign to Saudi Arabia. They are not the indigenous pop. There are also a nation. I think you are confusing "nation" with "nation state".Bless sins 23:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Last I checked, Jews are a religious and ethnic group.Proabivouac 23:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

If you really want, we can change the title to "peoples" instead of nations. That woudl work better in light of Faisal's relation with the American rock bands.Bless sins 00:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not certain that the Grateful Dead trivia needs to be here at all, but, as the song was supposedly written on the occasion of his assassination, I've moved it to that section.Proabivouac 00:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

That song is more illustrative of his relations to other nations, than it is to his death. In any case it is no more "trivia" than Faisal's liking Protocols of Elders of Zion.Bless sins 00:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Being a Deadhead has nothing to do with foreign policy.Proabivouac 00:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ofcourse not. And I never said that. But does have to do with one's personal interests. And it also has to do with how others view that person.Bless sins 01:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Kindly refrain from hampering attempts to make the article better and more neutral Beit Or, there's no dedicated section for the communists. thestick 08:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Blood Libel

OK, there is no source for the protocols issue, so I removed it, but writing in support of the concept of the blood libel is not only a reference to the antisemitism issue, but is patently antisemitic in and of itself. Anyone disagree? -- Avi 16:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Just as I can't go around hurling accusations of Islamophobia without a source, you shouldn't deface Arab leaders with accusation of anti-semitism, uinless you have a reliable source.Bless sins 18:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. But the protocols have now been properly sourced by Beit Or, and the blood libel has always been sourced, so the antisemitism tag is properly applied. Anyway, I am of the belief that Faisal would not have thought of it as defacement, but as a badge of honor. I mean, the blood libel is such a disproven canard, and such a disgusting accusation, that for someone to make such an accusation in the modern era strikes me a s person who would wear his hatred of Jews loudly and proudly. Of course, that is just my opinion, but it does not change the verified and reliable sourcing of the facts that demonstrate the need for the category. -- Avi 01:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Blood libel and belief in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have now joined pogroms in an expanding list of things that, according to certain editors, aren't antisemitic.Proabivouac 01:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Grateful Dead

Sorry people but this is silly. The guy was not a fan of the Grateful Dead - I doubt he ever even heard of them. The source that's been provided here only shows that some 'Dead lyricist wrote a song inspired by King Faisal, but that's it. Slackerlawstudent 19:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages discourages the addition of trivia sections Misplaced Pages:Avoid_trivia_sections_in_articles. Pelase take note of that before anyone re-inserts the section on trivia. Bless sins 20:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Views on Jews

Also, Faisal's views on Jews were his personal ones and part of his hobbies and interests. Lastly, for the sake of undue wieght, we shouldn't have a section "views on Jews", as Faisal is not at all notable for that.Bless sins 20:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he is very notable for his antisemitic views. Beit Or 20:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Not really. He is notable as the King of Saudi Arabia. If he is, please show me a biography of Faisal that mentions his views on Jews. Bless sins 20:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you show any biogrpahy of Faisal? Also, please review the notability guidelines. His antisemitic views were documented by mutiple, independent, reliable sources; thus, they are notable enough to be included. Mixing views on Jews with hobbies makes no sense; there is not a single Misplaced Pages article that does so. Topics like antisemitism or racism are always presented in separate sections. Beit Or 21:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

There is one already cited in the article, Encyclopedia of World Biography. His views on Jews were personal ones. That he believed in the ritual murder by Jews were his personal views on Israel/Zionism. For the sake of undue weight we shouldn't give that its own section. Also, you have inserted qutoes regarding him in the article. Please provide sources that suggest those quotes of his are notable enough to be included.Bless sins 01:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You are under a bit of a misconception, I believe, Bless. The person has to be notable to merit an article. Once he is notable, important points about his life, even if they are not meritorious of an article in and of themselves, are eligible for the article if properly sourced. It is similar to a notable band. Often, the individual album articles are "merged" into the parent, because they are uneorthy of their own article, but are important in the context of the band's article. Same here. Perhaps you need to become more involved in the AfD proces to get a better understanding. -- Avi 01:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, please refer to me as "Bless_sins", editors in the past have used short forms in an offensive manner. Secondly, I'm more focusing on undue weight, which is exactly what is going on here. I am not against removing sourced views, only against giving them a prominent place in the article.Bless sins 01:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely, Bless sins, if that is what you prefer. Secondly, where would you suggest putting his blood-libel accusations and protocol funding? It is not exactly foreign relations. To remove it from the article in toto would be POV violation, especially as Arab-Jewish relations are a significnat part of any discussion of the Middle East, and the views of one of the most important Arab leaders of the modern world is of extreme importance. -- Avi 04:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Avraham please understand that i've never advocated the removal of the material, regardless of what some users says on this page. I suggest putting it in a section containing his personal views and interests. There is no connection between his politicial activities and his views on Jews (as Saudi Arabia is not the onyl country that is hostile towards Israel).Bless sins 05:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

"There is no connection between his politicial activities and his views on Jews (as Saudi Arabia is not the onyl country that is hostile towards Israel)"

Non sequitur, Bless sins.Proabivouac 05:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you be more clear. In any case, the burden of evidence is on you to show how his views on Jews were connected his political life and were something major.Bless sins 05:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Per your request, I can be more clear: your claim that there must be no connection between his antisemitism and his hostility to Israel because other countries are also hostile towards Israel falsely presumes that these are not also hostile towards Jews, and even if that were so, it wouldn't mean that Faisal's policies and his personal views weren't related. That he shared his views with foreign envoys makes it that much clearer. As it is no secret that Israel is the only Jewish state, it is ridiculous to allow that Faisal believed Jews to be evil, yet this had no effect on his policies, which, only by coincidence, strongly opposed and rejected Israel. It is incredible to me that I should really need to explain this; indeed, I'm left wondering why you object to the label "antisemitism," as it refers to a set of attitudes which your contributions consistently suggest you to believe completely justified.Proabivouac 06:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And I thought you had learned from you previous mistakes. You had (falsely) accused me of sockpuppetry, now you are hinting that I believe that "antisemitism" is "completely justified". If you want to disrespect other users, wikipedia is not the place.Bless sins 06:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I accused you of sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry, which over multiple inquiries you have refused to unambigiously deny, perhaps because you are an honest man. As these IPs have quieted down since our conversation, I have no further complaint.

Where articles are concerned, whether on Banu Qurayza, Battle of Khaybar, Antisemitism, Islam and antisemitism or this article, I find you representing the same duplex point of view: that there has been no antisemitism in Islam, and that what incidents and attitudes were otherwise ascribed to antisemitism are justifiable on some other ground. You are certainly free to represent this point of view; there is also no reason I cannot observe it. If I am mistaken in this, you are likewise free to correct me.Proabivouac 06:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, there should be no mistake about my behavior: Your allegations that I used an anon for sock/meat puppetry, votestacking, vandalism etc. ARE COMPLETELY FALSE. Do I make myself clear? Are you looking for a stronger "unambigiously den"? If there has been anti-semitism in Islam you need reliable sources to show that. The lack of sources saying otherwise can't be used as a justification to throw accusations on 1.2 billion people.

I don't agree with "blood libel" or other "antisemitism". I only wish you didn't agree with the propaganda that suggests Muslims are bad people.

However, King Faisal is better knwon for other things, his politics, charity, relations with other Muslim countries, than he is known about his views on Jews. Thus per undue weight that should not figure prominently in the article.Bless sins 16:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem, expand the other aspects of the article, but do not attempt to hide his antisemitism somewhere in "Personal life" or "Foreign relations". Beit Or 18:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but his alleged "antisemitism" can't be given too much wieght per NPOV:undue weight.Bless sins 03:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Bless sins, since for whatever reason you insist upon discussing this here, the specific question that you've repeatedly declined to answer was, "Are you saying that you are not in any way connected to the person who posted as User:216.99.52.133?"Proabivouac 04:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This is the third time I'm giving you a clear answer: I AM NOT INVOLVED IN SOCKPUPPETRY WITH ANY ANON LIKE YOU'VE ACCUSED ME OF. I also believe that you don't really have any "evidence" (that you said you did) against me. Bless sins 04:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that you are not in any way connected to the person who posted as User:216.99.52.133?Proabivouac 04:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that this is the most active Saudi-related page simply because of some dubious quotes about Jews found in a polemical tract, plus a really insignificant tidbit about the Protocols (as if any of this has showed itself in his policies). I just took a quick look at some pages relating to Israeli personalities. Golda Meir made the statement that "Palestinians do not exist", and she also accused Arab mothers of hating other people more than they love their own children. Neither of these quotes appear in her wikipedia article. May I include these two better documented and far more relevant quotes under "Views on Arabs" without provoking an edit war? Moshe Dayan once called for treating the Palestinians "like dogs" in order to induce them to leave the West Bank after 1967. This does not appear in his article either. May I include that quote as well under a seperate section, for the sake of consistency and relevance? Slackerlawstudent 17:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd like it if double standards, such as the ones you have outlined above, end. Bless sins 17:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

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