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????

Why is this article titled black people, when wikipedia redirects a search of "white people" to the article "Caucasian People." I believe that this article should be renamed to "African American People," or "Caucasian People" should be renamed to "White People"

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Editingisbad (talk • contribs) 20:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Sure, but that would pose as a problem for Jamaicans, Afro-Caribs, Afr-Brazilians, Haitians and everyone else not African AMERICAN.

Just as the anonymous comment above mine states, Black People are not the same as African Americans. African Americans must live in America. Black people do not have to. Many Americans make this mistake, being to PC in my opinion. Also, the Caucasian people article does not cover White people. It mostly covers people from the Caucasus area, as thhat is what Caucasian means in pretty much every country but the good old USA.ɱўɭĩє_wrong 00:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

PROPOSAL!

My thoughts and suggestions are as follows; I question the whole subject as not having WPOV or NPOV in encyclopedic terms. I conclude that the subject "Black people" is too broad a term, and is actually only an observation, and a subjective one at that, made by some people to describe or to categorize as they see fit. It can never be NPOV, not as it is now. Yet, if the subject/title would be "Blacks in the Americas" or some form thereof and which can include topics such as;

• • SLAVERY
  • LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN
  • EARLY IMMIGRATION AND SLAVERY
  • BLACK MUSLIMS
  • AFRICAN-AMERICANS
  • Iberian Blacks
  • Beginnings of the African Slave Trade
  • Conditions of Slavery
  • Volume of Immigration
  • Blacks in Colonial Society
  • The Free Blacks
  • The Campaign Against the Slave Trade
  • Abolition of the Slave Trade
  • The Abolition of Slavery
  • Brazil: suffered a long internal struggle over abolition and was the last Latin American country to adopt it.
  • Prejudice Against Blacks or Racism
  • Assimilation of Black Minorities
  • Regional Differences
  • Cultural Modifications
  • Religious Practices
  • Black Literature
  • POLITICS
  • Resistance: as Blacks resisted enslavement from the time of capture in Africa but, outnumbered by whites, North American slaves were less likely than Brazilian or Caribbean ones to engage in massive rebellions. Africans in North America typically underwent 'seasoning' in the West Indies and a 'breaking' process on the mainland, etc.

• • Other headings can include;
    • THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION AND BLACK REBELLIONS
    • SEMI-FREE BLACKS
    • ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT
    • GROWING ACTIVISM
    • CIVIL WAR
    • RECONSTRUCTION AND URBAN MIGRATION
    • GROWING SELF-AWARENESS
    • BLACK CULTURE IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY
    • WORLD WAR I
    • THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE.

And many more topics/subtopics that have to do with valuable contributions/inventions, influence, and oppression that Black People are known for, and have persevered under great injustices, and have a rich and diverse history. We can have other pages connecting to any page(s) that have any of these and other titles listed here. Perhaps disambiguation pages too? This is just my suggestion (and not in any particular order as expressed here) that I feel may alleviate the constant bickering and do away with the many different points of view, edit wars, heated discussions, and have a better WPOV, etc. Just a thought.

I know this is long, and it may be encyclopedic in some areas on this page. Or even ignored altogether. You may think I'm a lunatic, and you may be correct. You may think I'm ignorant of the content that already exists, which can be absolutely correct. But I think this project as it is is not going to work on this site as note worthy, encyclopedic, etc. Heck, it can be put with Genetics, Race, Human Beings, or whatever. Please, just not "Black people" as this will always be more controversial than any of the topics I've suggested, and possibly all can be included an it's own article as I suggested in the beginning of this diatribe Blacks in the Americas just not Black people! forgive me, I think this article, as it is, is embarrassing, stupid, too controversial and can only have individual POV in this context. --Jeeny 20:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

An enormous part of the layout you have here is dedicated to African Americans, and as such is probably alread covered in other articles. There is an article on African Americans. This article is on black people as a whole, not black people in America. Yes, you would cover some non-American blacks with your sections on Black Muslims and on The Caribbean, etc. I understand that you think the article is POV, stupid, and controversial, because for the most part it is. It needs a huge amount of work, a near complete rewrite, and it's much too brief for the huge subject it covers. But there's already and article on blacks in America. ɱўɭĩє_wrong 00:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Rushton

why is this guy quoted in the article. He has been accused of being a racist, why does his opinion count. Muntuwandi 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Scientific racism has had a huge influence on how black identity has historically been constructed and what it has come to mean and how black people are treated in everyday life, so even if Rushton were a racist (which I don’t think he is) the reader to have a complete understanding of the topic needs to know more than just all the Afrocentric and black views quoted in the article (most black kids hear that on the street growing up, they don't come to encyclopedia's to hear that), but the contemporary “racist” perspective on who is considered black, and from that perspective Rushton is as influential and scholarly as they come. The only reason he is considered racist is because he’s assembled serious data showing black men have larger penises than white men who have larger penises than oriental men. But his data comes from the World Health Organization and is is part of a serious sociobiological theory and Rushton has been defended by very eminent scientists.

Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson (one of the two cofounders of r/K selection theory) states "I think Phil is an honest and capable researcher ... The basic reasoning by Rushton is solid evolutionary reasoning; that is it's logically sound. If he had seen some apparent geographic variation for a non-human species-a species of sparrow or sparrow hawk, for example-no one would have batted an eye."

Rushton is an extremely credible source because he’s spent the last 3 decades studying black people, writing articles about black people in peer reviewed academic journals, and teaching a course on race. I think he’s reliable enough to give a 1 sentence definition of who a black person is. He is a professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada, holds two doctorates from the University of London (Ph.D. and D.Sc) and is a Fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations. He is also a member of the Behavior Genetics Association, the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and the Society for Neuroscience. Rushton has published six books and nearly 200 articles. In 1992 the Institute for Scientific Information ranked him the 22nd most published psychologist and the 11th most cited. Professor Rushton is listed in Who's Who in Science and Technology, Who's Who in International Authors, and Who's Who in Canada. Iseebias

some people can be racist all their lives. In fact old habbits die hard. Muntuwandi 23:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I think known racist should be reduced in content as the base for their info is a racist one, even if content sometimes doesnt violate. Its like why would Jews quote any Nazi, even if the statement was fair. Lets find someone else and stop advertising ,celebrating, validating these kind of people.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

A section about Arabs is fine. It is infact quite relevant if it is about Yemenis etc (some of whom are black). However, as the sub-section is currently about how Arabs view blacks, spiced with ignorancies such as "hybridized blacks", I have removed it. Quote Rushton, but only if it is relevant. Not merely as another attemt to push fringe POV. --Ezeu 00:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

We need more freaking quotes from Rushton to keep the article balanced. 90% of the quotes are from FREAKING AFROCENTRICS with a 9th grade education which doesn't surprise since the talk page is full of Afrocentic shit. And what fring POV was Rushton pushing? And Rushton never said Ethiopians were hybridized but anyone with an IQ over 50 knows they are. Bernard Lewis in his landmark book about slavery in the middle east said exactly the same thing as Rushton said about how the Arabs viewed the blacks. That's probably where Rushton got it Christmasgirl

I find it funny go to White people or Jews do you see them adding Afrocentrics to bring balance? So y do we need racist Eurocentrics to bring balance. last time i checked it was called Black people, i am sure they can speak with enough diversity to rep balance--dont u?--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Because White people were the ones who decided to call themselves White. Jewish decided to call themselves Jewish. It was White people who decided to call some people black so we need to hear more from white on people on what they mean by the term. Also, Afrocentics have no power over white people so it doesn't matter what Afrocentrics think about white people. But it matters lots what white people think about black people because it determines where black people live, work, and their standard of living. Afrocentrics belong in the Africoid article cause they made that shit up Christmasgirl

I cannot possibly reply properly to the above message without violating all of Misplaced Pages's civility policies. This is the worst piece of racist crap I have seen on this page so far, and if it is coming from a black person, then fuck us. I really hope it represents juvenile ignorance and not the thoughts of an educated person. --Ezeu 01:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well what do you expect this article is about racism. Black is a racist slur. No different from the N word in fact the literal translation of Black is the N word. No self-respecting African would call themselves black. And I've been to Africa so you better pay attention to what I got to say. And no I'm not African, I'm one of those hybridized people you think don't exist Christmasgirl

I am sorry if you have an identity crisis, but perhaps you should deal with it outside the scope of Misplaced Pages. Whether you like it or not, and despite your belief that it is evidence of self-loathing, most people of African ancestry (especially those in your home country) refer to themselves as black. --Ezeu 02:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a FREAKING identiy crisis I'm the most secure chick you've been lucky enough to meet. Sure African ancestry people call themselves black but it's because of racism they've been brainwashed into doing that. No one would choose to call themselves black on their own, as it's the color of the devil, the color of evil, the color of death. All the great religions have said this. Why do you think Afrocentrics are always trying to push that the East Indians, the tamils, the Australian aboriginals were black. They feel it's unfair that they got stuck with the black label and are pissed that other dark people escaped it. That's why this article will always be controversial. Me I don't care because I'm half Asian (notice I didn't call myself yellow), half White (that I will call myself because it's the color of purity)Christmasgirl +

Thanks, I needed the comic relief. Now I can sleep soundly. --Ezeu 02:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

i can almost hear the screaming and shoutingMuntuwandi 04:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well FREAKING HELL the talk page was nice and quiet until you started talking about FREAKING RACISM!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way the Who is a Jew? article has a whole FREAKING section about how anti-Semites defined Jewish people. How come they're mature enough to handle FREAKING REALITY and this place has 15 archived talk pages of FULL of FREAKING COMPLAINING!!!!!!!!!!!! Christmasgirl

I agree with Muntuwandi, but i will do one better, i am picture them killing one another in a ring or something. 2 b fair to both. I agree with Christmas girl (on one point), nobody in their right historical mind would refer to themseleves as black, no people in history have done this. They have been called Black, they either accept it or reject it. No one in Africa ever said "we is blacks" the said "we are Nubian" We are Nigerian or Wolof or Fulani. However Afro centric r not to blame for race lumping. Afrocentrics have done a lot for reforming African identity many dont use the word black. see Kimani Nehusi and Karenga. I do find it amazing however that anyone from anywhere from any identify can take all kinds of shots at the poor Negro. I challenge anyone 2 try that on jew, u cant even breath wrong if you edit there. Their is no group more oppressed than Africans i tell u that. Only 2 race color identify, everyone else has rejected these color labels save the Negro, sorry the Black.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The decision to call black was one of necessity to distinguish between the two. Wherever the white man went, he was also given a name. In east africa it was muzungu. the use of the term black was not forced upon, it was more common sense. But at the time there were no negative stereotypes to attach to the word.Muntuwandi 14:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

BLACK IDENTITY WAS INVENTED BY RACISTS WHO CALLED THEMSELVES WHITE FOR PURITY AND AFRICANS BLACK FOR WICKEDNESS, DIRT, AND EVIL. ALL THE SLAVERY BOOKS SAY THIS!!!!!!!! And even though Jewish people named themselves the Who is a Jew? article contains a whole FREAKING section on anti-semitism and it got so big it was turned into a whole FREAKING ARTICLE. Christmasgirl

Please stop swearing and shouting. Maintain calm. There is no good evidence that the term black was chosen for derogatory meaning, but there is, of course evidence that the symbolism of black/white and dark/light became interwoven with it. Lots of ancient commentators, including the Egyptians and the Greeks considered "excessive" paleness not to be so-called purity but to be just as unappealing as excessive darkness. Paul B 15:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Muntu, it doesnt matter what a disempowered people call white people, no where is the opinions of African the globall standard for identity, if you dont have power to make it law and process then who care what white were called. We love black because we were trained to love it. I never heard anyone call themselves black in Ethiopia, or NIgeria. It was only in the west that people say "I am black". what we say is we r African. Black means we r not white, we r not them, we r the opposite of purity. Still i fail to see y Negro is worst than black. One is spanish one is English. And AA got sold this lie. Y? X said you r African American. That makes sense as Shahad said "there is no Blackia or Blackistan" there is also no history of us calling ourselves black prior to 500 yrs ago.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 15:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Some examples of Greek writings on excessive (in their view) paleness:

Polemon, Physiognomica, 8.11-1:

Blond and whitish hair, like that of Scythians signifies stupidity , evilness , savagery

Pseudo-Aristotle, Physiognomica:

The people whose eyes are light blue-grey or white are cowards

Paul B 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Arab slave traders said "we are neither unbaked dough or bunt crust but cooked just right". Christmasgirl

But does anyone ever wonder why first White Americans decided to go all the way to Africa to get their slaves when they had a huge population of Native Americans they could have enslaved? Well there were lots of reasons of course, but one of the biggest according to the history books was the negative attitude the Europeans had towards the color black. They defined black as evil, wicked, soiled, deeply stained by dirt. They couldn't bring themselves to enslaves the people they saw as red as red was considered a pretty color, hence they went all the way to what they called black Africa to get slaves over and over again wasting huge amounts of time and effort when they could have just used Native Americans as slaves who were already in the Americas anyway. That's how much they hated the color black Christmasgirl

Native Americans WHERE used as slaves by the first white Americans (who came from Europe) butthey died too quickly because of the new diseases brought from Europe, therefore not suitable for the type of work the new Americans needed. African's where considered stronger, healthier and a better investment in the long haul (they did not have the same vulerablities to diseases.) Read up more about Georgraphy, History AND Science, etc. (not other's opinions or commentaries. ::I would like to know where you live in the world, and what is your educational background, if any. Also, you seem to change your "ethnicity" combination often to suit your agenda, whatever that is I have no idea. I do believe you are white (more than 50%, at least more than any other supposed "race" you've stated. Scientifically, there is only ONE race, the Human Race. Social Biology is another word for eugenics (not a real science), this is a very racist THEORY about the different "races" and there strenghts/weaknesses. Much like when Hitler used it to push his evil agenda. I can go on and on, but there is no reasoning with you. Jeeny 17:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I've said all along that I'm half Asian, half White but I've been all over the world. North East Asian actually so I'm white as ghost in color. Never understood why they called us yellow. And yes Jeeney a lot of the stuff you said is true. I never said color was the only reason nor did I say it was the primary reason. But it was one of the reasons at least according to the history books I've read. I may be a little rough around the edges but I seldom get my facts wrong. It's funny that you think I'm caucasian because I'm widely feared in the white people article because I corrected their Eurocentricism. In fact users there were so shell shocked by my edit that they threatened to block me. It's was the most shocking edit they had ever seen. Problem with me is I'm brutally honest. No sugar coating from me baby. I'm a straight shooter. People start out hating me but always end up respecting me. Christmasgirl

Okay, about our heredity. :) Facts about the subject are more important, right. Anyway, there were many reasons Native Americans where not used in the way Africans were used for slavery. But they sure tried and would have prefered it as African slaves where much more expensive. Europeans did use Native Americans right along side the Africans though. The owner's of the lands didn't like the fact that Natives could escape too easily, and they feared rebellion more so, as the Natives could run off into the wilderness and come back and fight. So, eventually it was worth the extra cost and the safety of their lands.

Also, Native Americans used slaves long before any "white" man came to America. The slaves would be captives of warring tribes, among other reasons. Another irony is that when Europeans first used Africans to work their new lands, they were considered indentured servants, and could be freed after a certain amount of time. But then the racial rationalization took over them (greed, ignorance, etc), and they were afraid that Africans would war with them, and didn't want them to mix with the so-called superior whites. They took advantage of taking them from their homelands, and different parts of Africa so the slaves could not communicate with each other as lauguage varied among African tribes. They feared escape plans being made and other such fears the white man had.

It's so complicated the more I type, leads me into another thought and facts are of a very complex nature of the first slaves (not allowing them to read, threats, beatings, etc). Eventually though, yes, whites did justify their slavery of African blacks because they thought them inferior, because of religion reasons (were thought of savages, etc), also their perceived notions that Africans where next to apes, therefore, not true humans (so they could "morally" use slaves like animals). All nations used slavery, from the beginning of times, but nothing like the History of African slavery in the US. Where actual LAWS where made to keep them as less than human for thier own greed,etc. Ugly, ugly ugly. :/ Jeeny 18:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course other Africans were also involved in selling Africans as slaves. Ugly, ugly ugly. Lukas19 15:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the socalled Africans who were involved in selling Africans into slavery were extremely hybridized with Arab blood. This tendency to say Blacks themselves were responsible for slavery further victimize Black people. Authentic Black slave traders were exceedingly rare. Iseebias

That's just your opinion. And if you read History of slavery, you'll see that slavery wasnt exclusive to Africans. So, such victimization is redundant anyways. Lukas19 20:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In 1620 ,when the european pilgrims first landed on plymouth rock of the 102 people, 50 died during the first winter from various diseases. A year earlier in 1619 the first africans had landed in virginia. They were not slaves but indentured servants. There must have been great amazement that the africans were not easily succumbing to the various diseases of the new world. millenia of battling malaria and other jungle illnesses made the africans more resistant. They were already good farmers, fishermen and hunters. They knew how to navigate themselves through difficult jungle terrains as many escaped to form communities in the busheg columbian communtity. because of the skills of the africans, the europeans must have sensed a great economic opportunity.Muntuwandi 22:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Incivility

I fully appreciate the concept of free speech, but I do not understand why we have to contend with unnecessarily offensive language that is clearly not aimed at improving the article. Even talk pages can be vandalised.Muntuwandi 15:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

And your complaining about me using the FR word (now that's offensive too?) which I've already stopped using does what to improve the article? It seems like everytime us editors are starting to get along you create another controversy. Speaking of controversy the only contribution you've ever made to this article (population section) was controversial. But lucky for the article, you create most of your controversies on the talk page Christmasgirl

see Removing uncivil comments- If comments are offensive, wikipedia policy allows for them to be removed, even on talk pages.Muntuwandi 16:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything is offensive to you which is why you keep draining our energy with one pointless talk page controversy after another. Christmasgirl

And please stop removing comments from the talk page. Ezeu is an admin and he told you not to do this. Christmasgirl

Please be considerate and helpful by signing your posts using four tildes, instead of three. You can also use the button at the top of the page if you have problems. It helps to follow the coversation by knowing what is new or old. Thank you. Jeeny 04:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Rushton Quote

"Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the "Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position"

The Rushton quote is definitely wrong. Africa is huge. It is therefore for exemple very ulikely that Arabs in Egypt would have known about the situation in West Africa. Or that they would have been able to differentiate Ethiopians from Western Africans(In order to avoid intermarriage, etc.). I am from Western Africa. And we had different waves of Arab immigration. And some deffinitely mixed with the local population(Spread of Islam, etc.). Besides, (Christian&Jewish) Ethiopians are often considered as absoulte ennemies of the Arab World. Just ask the Somalis, who are very close to the Jemenites and who can definitely be considered as part of the Arab World, even though they look black.(Afro-German)(87.176.254.80 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

Well if Rushton is wrong than Bernard Lewis the foremost scholar on the Arab slave trade of Africans is wrong because Lewis says the same. Also Halaqah who I respect for his knowledge of African/Arab history said the quote is right on the mark. But I'm not trying to take sides on whether the Arab section should stay or go I'm just saying Bernard Lewis says the same Christmasgirl

Just go to Egypt, Algeria, Marocco and so on. It is obvious that a sensitive part of the population has African descent. But if you have like 10-20% looking very "African"-even in remote places-, then it is likely that the rest of the population has also a very high likelyhood to have some African ancestrors.(87.176.254.80 17:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

Rushton never said there was no interbreeding. All he said was that the Arabs didn't want it for their daughters. But the fact that he mentions hybridized blacks prove your point. There was interbreeding between the blacks and the Arabs. Lots of it. Christmasgirl

It just has nothing to do with Skin Colour. Regionally, in Sudan and elsewhere, Arabs and Black Africans look extremely similar. But they clearly differentiate themselves by culture and so on. So Arab slave trade is true. But if somebody is very Black but is extremely well integrated in the Arab society, he might very well marry whoever he wants. => Rushton speaks of "colour" where the key to understanding the problems is culture. (87.176.254.80 17:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

See this where the confusion comes in with the word black. Some people use it to mean dark skin, but Rushton & Bernard Lewis use it to mean sub-Saharan African ancestry. So you can have people who are dark skinned pure Arabs from Southern Arabia who are much darker than say the Khoisan but only the Khoisan would be considered black cause he's sub-Saharan. But the people who define black by color would consider the pure Southern Arab to be blacker Christmasgirl

Rushton is a typical white arrogant man, he is imposing his own understanding and coming up with sense according to his racism. It is more than color in Sudan. Sometimes very dark people are "Arab" and their social ranking would far exceed a light skin guy like Cuba Gooding, but all of this is confusing to these racist so they just generalize and make all kinds of mistakes. Rushton is so ill informed he also seperates Zanj and Habesha, crazy the Zanj would be the Ethiopians..these kinds of mistakes show the quality of his knowledge he is a popular eurocentric with the same low quality academics as the worst of the Afrocentrics.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

But just so you know, Rushton is not talking about color. To White academics, black is just another word for African. And those ideas aren't Rushton. We should have quoted the original source, Arab scholar Bernard Lewis. Christmasgirl

All of them are heads of the Orientalismcrew. if you quote the devil or his son they basically say the same thing. J.D. Fage, all John Reader, al of them. God knows why African validate these people. u know what they are yet we prop them up, never does Diop (a valid academic) appear on their little pages.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

But just a few days ago you praised Rushton's quote in your edit summary. So should I believe what you are saying today or what you are saying then? And how do you define the Zanj? For example you complained about Rushton separating Ethiopians from the Zanj but not about him separating Nubians from the Zanj. So I'm very curious what your definition of Zanj is. Christmasgirl

What was said was correct, however why he said it maybe for his racist agenda. the quote is in isolation to his other posion. When he draws a conclusion it is to suit his argument. But the statement is correct. I think we should quote someone else with a better perspective, see dispute on Zanj and the racism going on where some people on wiki dont like to be told. Rushton doesnt know what a Zanj is, sometimes i like these things because it shows his ignorance.Ethiopians would be Zanj.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the dispute at the Zanj article and the expert on Arab linguistic translation seems convinced that Ethiopians are not Zanj. Christmasgirl

Well then it proves my argument on the Zanj page that Zanj is not a generic term for all "blacks" but it also proves that Rushton doesnt understand the usage of the word. However in a nutshell the word is clearly not generic. That is the point, Zanj is not a general word it has a specific meaning just like Habasha.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Rushton never said the term was for "all" blacks; he sad the Arabs divided blacks into 3 main groups: Ethiopians, Nubians, and zanj Christmasgirl

Yet you know this and go and counter my work on Zanj, so clearly Zanj is not a Black generic term, it is specific like saying Habasha, or Ethiopian. People used Ethiopian to mean Africa, but it real meaning is specific, so you canot say Ethiopian means Ghana can u. wrk with me here not against my edits as i find it very dishonest.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 13:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Black People = American Topic

Americans have no knowledge about the cultural complexity outside their country.

Some of them might even go to Iraq and think the people there will speak Spanish, beaucause they look "Brown" and therefore must belong to the "Brown race" like the Mexicans, etc.

And because Americans lack this cultural knowledge, they tend to identify themselves by very primitive criterias like "Skin colour", etc.

Just look at the many awfull wars there were in Europe, and you will understand that it is totally crazy to put whites, blacks or others in one group just beacuse they somewhat look similar.

Now other countries, cultures, etc. also have many problems. But as a whole, this article does only make sense in the US.(87.176.254.80 17:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

I totally agree. It's a POV article. One of the reasons color makes a difference in the US is the Bill of Rights for example. If it were not for this, blacks especially would still be very much oppressed today. The whole Bill of Rights, and many of the Ariticles of the Constition would have to change. Though Blacks want to keep their idenity as being "black" or African-American for many reasons. Black and whites are very preoccupied by race, even though things have changed since the 1960s, ignorance and bigotry is very strong here. I'm hoping things will changed very soon. With the Internet we have access to many other POVs, and cultures where we would not have had before, unless one was wealthy and could travel. Even then, there exists an ignorance for sure. Like I said, I'm hoping things will change soon. Let the people who are aware of the complexities speak up, and continue to challenge those with small minds. The Internet is one place to start. Free higher education would help too. Jeeny 18:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that User:87.176.254.80 has some great points. JJJamal 22:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a very US-centric article, as far as POV. I believe this helps explain why biological/genetic concepts of "Black" are prioritized and social and political concepts are currently barely present. For example, the entire section on Arabs is written from a US POV —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jd2718 (talk • Forgot to sign Jd2718 23:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Then improve it!--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This has been a very difficult article to work on, as rapid editing took place over the last few weeks without any clear plan, but with a clear consensus to push a biology-related POV. I was waiting for a version to stabilize, and when it did it was very far from where the article had been. I do not know how to improve this article without reconstructing it. It is permeated with US-centric and race obsessed assumptions. Jd2718 00:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Start by being specific about a specific statment and not just a general overview. also your tag is innocrrect it should b a worldview tag.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The article will never please everyone since the topic itself is controversial. Christmasgirl

A category of people "Black" as opposed to simply Ethiopian, Bantu, Khoisan, etc, arose not from simple contact between Africans and Europeans - such contact had occurred repeatedly in the past; not from internal identification in Africa - there's no evidence of an internal African identification based on skin color; but rather from European-African contact related specifically to colonization and the slave trade. Yet this article insistently puts forward a timeless notion of Blackness based on ancestry and biology, and assiduously avoids mention of oppression, economics, slavery. Look at our race article. Majority, reliable source POV has race as a social construct. Yet this article avoids explaining what that means. When I saw the discussion of Arabs, that was too much. The article treats "Black" as a genetic or biological or ancestry-related category. The view is popular, especially in the US, but is a minority POV among experts on race. Jd2718 17:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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