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Censorship of Misplaced Pages
I am a participant of the Russian Misplaced Pages, my name is User:Рождествин.
I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2008. Currently, there is a situation developing in the Russian Misplaced Pages that greatly concerns me. Below, I will provide a chronology of events and highlight the aspects that are causing my concern.
On November 6, 2023, I wrote an article about the head of an international drug cartel operating in Russia, Ukraine, and possibly Europe - Yegor Burkin:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%91%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%95%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 (en version have been deleted too https://en.wikipedia.org/Egor_Burkin)
Three hours later, the article was deleted by a user, whose name I don't mention deliberately as a duplicate copy of a previously created and deleted article. It was removed without any discussion and even without notifying me This was not the correct resolution, as the article was written by me from scratch and had no relation to the previous version.
The article complied with the rules of the Russian section, so I raised the issue with the administrator forum to inquire about the reasons for such behavior. Administrator Lesless responded to me, stating that someone (not me, although I am the author of the article) received real-life threats related to this article. Due to this reason, the name of the user who deleted the article has been changed, the account was blocked (at that time), and any mention of this article started to be removed from Russian Misplaced Pages. A few minutes later, Oversighter Q-bit array deleted the entire edit history on the administrator forum with corresponding section (plz see Screenshot 1 as attached file).
Plz see the diff link https://ru.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Википедия%3AЗапросы_к_администраторам&diff=134040347&oldid=134040320
In a private email conversation, Administrator Lesless informed me that the article was removed for security reasons, and I should understand the danger. The administrator informed me that this was a private initiative of one or several administrators, who did not receive any instructions or directives from third parties, and strongly requested that I refrain from mentioning this incident further, citing the Foundation and the Foundation's legal department being aware of it. Currently, the article is protected from creation. All mentions of the discussion on this matter have been removed and hidden from the administrator forum and the article restoration page.
I acknowledge that the criminal organization in question is well-known and possesses significant resources. However, the situation where real-world threats result in the removal of an article can set a terrible precedent, which could have enormous consequences for Misplaced Pages: it would be sufficient to publish a threat towards the editors of a particular article to have it completely eradicated. This situation is reminiscent of an incident in the French version when an article was removed under pressure from intelligence services. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Censorship_of_Wikipedia#France ) I sincerely hope, although I cannot be entirely certain, that the administrators of the Russian Misplaced Pages are not operating under external pressure.
I consider this issue to require the attention of the Foundation, and I kindly ask you to clarify the following matters:
Can information about a character who is formally significant according to the criteria of notability be removed based on the decision of administrators of a regional project due to real-life threats received by some participants related to this article? --Рождествин (talk) 15:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
- User:Рождествин does not describe the situation quite correctly. I can only confirm that on resources external to Misplaced Pages, measures of physical coercion against Misplaced Pages users were discussed. The administrators of the Russian WP took measures. We also asked User:Рождествин to draw less attention to the situation, since the threat of de-anonymization of the users had not disappeared, but the participant, as we see, did not listen. Lesless (talk) 05:03, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин: If you want to engage the Foundation this page at Meta provides various ways of contacting them depending on the situation. MarcGarver (talk) 13:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- I do not want engage Fond. Russian wikipedia administrator told me that Fond had already been engaged. But I have grounds for doubt in his words. I had already sent a letter to legal@wikimedia.org a week ago but they didn't answer. Рождествин (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- A week is not very long. Your expectations of a quick answer are probably wrong. It isn't urgent, so it'll be dealt with at some point. I recommend waiting a few weeks then contacting them again. MarcGarver (talk) 09:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
- I do not want engage Fond. Russian wikipedia administrator told me that Fond had already been engaged. But I have grounds for doubt in his words. I had already sent a letter to legal@wikimedia.org a week ago but they didn't answer. Рождествин (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- There are two possible issues. First, per People accused of crime, people cannot be called criminals unless they have been convicted. Second, while I can find many articles about the alleged cartel in news outlets, none of them are considered reliable sources. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, which rates the reliablity of Sputnik and other publications that have covered the story.
- Can you provide any reliable sources that extensively document the topic? If not, it lacks notability for its own article. TFD (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Please read my message attentively before answering. I don't complain about the deletion of article. I complain on reason of deletion. The reason is (by the words of russian wikipedia administratos) threats for users in real life. Article was deleted because of outside pressure. Is it clear enaugh now? Рождествин (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- And I am not a newcomer. I have been editing wiki sience 2008, so there is no need to tell me about reliable sources. Рождествин (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not allowed even discuss this article in russian wikipedia. Even mention it on forums. As I said, because of the threats against users. Do you understand the subject or I have to find another words to explain situation? Рождествин (talk) 22:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- There is no correct forum to do anything that might lead to people being harmed. It is unlikely that anyone here can judge whether harm may occur but that is going to make most of us decide to leave it to the current system. Raising a shit storm because you can might be an abuse of Misplaced Pages. What are you hoping to achieve? Not every wrong can be righted and while it might be ok to courageously put your own health on the line, it is not so good when doing that for others. Johnuniq (talk) 00:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- If the user reports stuff from mainstream media, there should be no harm. Misplaced Pages:WikiLeaks is not part of Misplaced Pages. If the user publishes novel allegations, they are banned as WP:OR. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- What I want achieve? It is not clear from my first message? I want to understand: 1) does the decision to delete an article about any person on Misplaced Pages comply with Misplaced Pages's rules and the Foundation allows the article's deletion if the article's author has received real-world threats? 2) does the Foundation know anything about the situation surrounding the article about Yegor Burkin? Has any evidence been provided to anyone at the Foundation that someone has received threats in connection with this article? I am the author of the article, and I have not received any threats, nor have I received any confirmation that such threats were received by anyone else. How can I know if the article was deleted due to threats rather than bribery of administrators in the Russian section or external pressure on them? Рождествин (talk) 02:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- @РождествинHi, have you read Misplaced Pages:Appeal to Jimbo? You'd better fix your problem locally, if local process is corrupted, you may want to go metawiki for help. -Lemonaka 09:00, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Have you read my massege? It's not an appeal. It's not a local question, so why I should fix it localy? I don't understand why people hurry to give advices if they don’t understand the essence. Рождествин (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm a little suspect about the clearness of my explanation.
Jimbo has waived his rights as a founder for global issues years ago, they cannot block or lock anyone again. Months ago they even resigned on English Misplaced Pages as a sysop. Calling him for help is useless unless something is really urgent, e.g. a government is going to file a sue against Wikimedia Foundation.
This can be just likened to a school boy crying for help from principle. The better way is try to solve the problem in better process which has been already advised by others. -Lemonaka 05:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)- "imbo has waived his rights as a founder for global issues years ago"
- I know. That's why first of all I wrote letter to Foundation. But the didn't answered. Рождествин (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- "process which has been already advised by others."
- What advice? Write letter to Wikimedia Foundation? I have already done it. Above I wrote on 30 November "I had already sent a letter to legal@wikimedia.org a week ago but they didn't answer". And on 2 December you give me advice to do what I have already done. So you didn't read anything above but hurry to give useless advices. Why? Рождествин (talk) 12:03, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Go to meta for raising comment, compared with Foundation, they are faster way. No one advised you about that? So you did read nothing above but hurry to criticize me, why? -Lemonaka 13:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have read that message above. Where on Meta place to post such message? Point me forum on meta where I can post such message. Рождествин (talk) 13:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин Hello, it's on m:Requests for Comment -Lemonaka 14:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. I take your advice. Рождествин (talk) 02:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин Hello, it's on m:Requests for Comment -Lemonaka 14:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have read that message above. Where on Meta place to post such message? Point me forum on meta where I can post such message. Рождествин (talk) 13:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Go to meta for raising comment, compared with Foundation, they are faster way. No one advised you about that? So you did read nothing above but hurry to criticize me, why? -Lemonaka 13:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm a little suspect about the clearness of my explanation.
- There should be another essay: "Don't give advices if don't understand the plot". Рождествин (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- Or maybe there's an essay to be written entitled "If you come from one language Misplaced Pages to English Misplaced Pages, even to post on the founder's talk page, you need to be very clear what action you think can and should be taken by a founder who has no special powers and a wiki that has no authority over your wiki and when editors are puzzled by what you want in that context maybe the fault is yours in being totally unclear and/or unrealistic as to why you are posting here" or something like that. DeCausa (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- "what action you think can and should be taken by a founder who has no special powers"
- I think I everything is pretty clear, this was my question:
- I consider this issue to require the attention of the Foundation, and I kindly ask you to clarify the following matters: Can information about a character who is formally significant according to the criteria of notability be removed based on the decision of administrators of a regional project due to real-life threats received by some participants related to this article? Рождествин (talk) 11:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Jimbo isn't the Foundation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:17, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Jimbo is not the Foundation and you is not Jimbo, so if you answering intead of him, why he couldn't answer instead of Foundation? Рождествин (talk) 03:19, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- And I already wrote, I will repeat for the log: you are not conveying the essence of the matter quite correctly. That's not why the article was deleted. Lesless (talk) 14:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have letter from you where this reason was pointed. Рождествин (talk) 03:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Это не так. Статья вообще была удалена ДО сообщений с угрозами, и причина удаления находится в открытом доступе. = That's not so. The article was already deleted BEFORE the threatening messages, and the reason for the deletion is publicly available. Lesless (talk) 11:19, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Of course public reason of deletion couldn't be "threats for users in real life". But as I said in my top message "The article complied with the rules of the Russian section" and aske for restoration of the article, but my message on forum (Requests for undeletion) was deleted too and contributes were hidden. And you wrote me a letter where said that it is dission of Foundation because of threats to some editors. You didn't read my top message too? Why nobody read it, but give answers? Рождествин (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Я-то знаю, как всё было. В отличие от вас. Если у Фонда будут ко мне вопросы, я отвечу. А вот зачем вы устроили всю эту кутерьму, мне неведомо. = I know how it all happened. Unlike you. If the Foundation has questions for me, I will answer. But why you started all this mess, I don’t know. Lesless (talk) 14:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- "But why you started all this mess, I don’t know"
- Cause I have no assurance that Foundation is informed as you said to me. I didn't see screenshot of their letter to some of russian admins or letter from russian admis to Foundation. Рождествин (talk) 02:33, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- А вам и не нужно его видеть. Вот я подписку давал. А вы давали? Вы арбитр? Вы юрист Фонда? Lesless (talk) 11:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Я-то знаю, как всё было. В отличие от вас. Если у Фонда будут ко мне вопросы, я отвечу. А вот зачем вы устроили всю эту кутерьму, мне неведомо. = I know how it all happened. Unlike you. If the Foundation has questions for me, I will answer. But why you started all this mess, I don’t know. Lesless (talk) 14:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Of course public reason of deletion couldn't be "threats for users in real life". But as I said in my top message "The article complied with the rules of the Russian section" and aske for restoration of the article, but my message on forum (Requests for undeletion) was deleted too and contributes were hidden. And you wrote me a letter where said that it is dission of Foundation because of threats to some editors. You didn't read my top message too? Why nobody read it, but give answers? Рождествин (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Это не так. Статья вообще была удалена ДО сообщений с угрозами, и причина удаления находится в открытом доступе. = That's not so. The article was already deleted BEFORE the threatening messages, and the reason for the deletion is publicly available. Lesless (talk) 11:19, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- And not deletion of the article is essence of my message too. Users think that some idiot came to Jimbo cause his article was deleted, he don't know that Jimbo is not in Foundation, let's give him our very important advices... No, the plot of my message is that I am not alowed even to discuss deletion, even mention it, all contributions of discussing on forums were hided beacause of threats for editors in real life. And I want to know is ok to do such actions. Рождествин (talk) 03:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин If you are in danger of threat of harm, please go to emergency@wikimedia.org, then call the police. For more information, you may want to read WP:EMERGENCY -Lemonaka 13:13, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- God, are you kidding??? Did you read my message??? I am not in danger/ Article was deleted cause of threats in adress of some wiki editors. Not me. Do you understand? And opposite I say that such deletion does not comply with the rules. This is clear? I think it is wrong to delete articlese because someone said to wiki user "I will kill you if you would't delete the article about me". It is in simle words, if it is to hard for you to read my top message. Рождествин (talk) 13:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- If following Misplaced Pages's rules gets people killed, we should consider changing them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- So if any person doesn't like some article and want this article be deleted all he needs to do is to send a message "I will kill you all" and we will delete it? Think twice Рождествин (talk) 14:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- That wasn't what I wrote at all. You wrote at the top of this thread that a contributor to the Russian Misplaced Pages "received real-life threats" in relation to an individual you stated was "the head of an international drug cartel". If it is indeed the case that the article was deleted because of these threats (a claim for which you have so far not actually produced any evidence) then clearly this is not something Misplaced Pages should feel good about. It might however, depending on the circumstances (particularly relating to the credibility of the threats) be justified, if the alternative is getting contributors killed. Absolutely nobody - not you, not me, not Jimbo - has the right to endanger another contributor's life in order to follow the rules of an online encyclopaedia. We don't engage in involuntary martyrdom for the sake of 'free speech' here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- "That wasn't what I wrote at all"
- I think you said right that. And I don't know if there was a real danger for somebody, russian wiki administrators siad there was danger (by their opinion). But it is dengerous precedent for wiki. As I said if you don't like any article you would have just send a letter with words "I will do smth bad with you if..." Рождествин (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not taking sides, but if the drugs cartel would be angry at somebody, they would be angry at the mainstream media, not at those who cite the mainstream media. Since: how exactly do you hide something that has been read by millions of people? tgeorgescu (talk) 02:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- That wasn't what I wrote at all. You wrote at the top of this thread that a contributor to the Russian Misplaced Pages "received real-life threats" in relation to an individual you stated was "the head of an international drug cartel". If it is indeed the case that the article was deleted because of these threats (a claim for which you have so far not actually produced any evidence) then clearly this is not something Misplaced Pages should feel good about. It might however, depending on the circumstances (particularly relating to the credibility of the threats) be justified, if the alternative is getting contributors killed. Absolutely nobody - not you, not me, not Jimbo - has the right to endanger another contributor's life in order to follow the rules of an online encyclopaedia. We don't engage in involuntary martyrdom for the sake of 'free speech' here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think there would be a lot of people who would like to censor wiki that way. Politics for example. You don't like the article about war in Ukraine — just write a letter where you promise kill some of wiki editors... Рождествин (talk) 03:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Another reason I can think of: they are petty drug dealers. So, okay, they were reported for dealing drugs, but they are petty criminals, so they don't deserve a Misplaced Pages article. Even if someone cool-bloodedly murders someone else, that's not a reason for having an article. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:18, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- So if any person doesn't like some article and want this article be deleted all he needs to do is to send a message "I will kill you all" and we will delete it? Think twice Рождествин (talk) 14:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- If following Misplaced Pages's rules gets people killed, we should consider changing them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- God, are you kidding??? Did you read my message??? I am not in danger/ Article was deleted cause of threats in adress of some wiki editors. Not me. Do you understand? And opposite I say that such deletion does not comply with the rules. This is clear? I think it is wrong to delete articlese because someone said to wiki user "I will kill you if you would't delete the article about me". It is in simle words, if it is to hard for you to read my top message. Рождествин (talk) 13:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин If you are in danger of threat of harm, please go to emergency@wikimedia.org, then call the police. For more information, you may want to read WP:EMERGENCY -Lemonaka 13:13, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have letter from you where this reason was pointed. Рождествин (talk) 03:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Jimbo isn't the Foundation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:17, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Or maybe there's an essay to be written entitled "If you come from one language Misplaced Pages to English Misplaced Pages, even to post on the founder's talk page, you need to be very clear what action you think can and should be taken by a founder who has no special powers and a wiki that has no authority over your wiki and when editors are puzzled by what you want in that context maybe the fault is yours in being totally unclear and/or unrealistic as to why you are posting here" or something like that. DeCausa (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- Have you read my massege? It's not an appeal. It's not a local question, so why I should fix it localy? I don't understand why people hurry to give advices if they don’t understand the essence. Рождествин (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Рождествин and to all who is still interested in this topic, we've interrupted Jimbo for a long while, can we move this topic to Рождествин's talk page instead of Jimbo's talk page? -Lemonaka 16:08, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Times Radio talk
Just caught your live talk with Ayesha Hazarika on Times Radio: Elon Musk is making Twitter vulnerable of a MySpace-style death. I especially liked your nostalgia for physical printed encyclopedias. Thanks for sharing. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:15, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
- That was an excellent interview, Jimbo. Informative, thoughtful, warm, upbeat and cheerful. I, too, grew up with World Book Encyclopedia. And I very rarely listen to one hour interviews. Well done. Cullen328 (talk) 09:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, these comments made me smile.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Safety and privacy concerns regarding porn performer articles
Jimmy, I know that in the past (and even quite recently) you have acted to reinforce the importance of treating porn performers with respect (as our policy on biographies of living people demands for everyone).
Recently, user Bennorey created articles for two female porn performers, Ella Jean and Emily Willis. Both of the articles prominently and repeatedly use the purported "real names" of these women. Both of them have sourcing issues. Both of them have previously been deleted. For Emily Willis, there is a "controversy" section which recounts an allegation that she had sex with a dog. The source for that allegation and related lawsuit is the New York Post, a source which is generally considered unreliable and should not be used for a biographical article.
I don't mean to suggest that a newish editor like Bennorey should stick to editing articles about proto-Nazi figures and never create articles about living people, but something is very wrong when any editor can just throw up articles like this that should be triggering all kinds of red flags. Several editors (including admins) have made edits to these two articles without addressing the name issue, which is strange because they are the very first thing in each article and they are bolded for emphasis. Above and beyond the usual BLP issues that are being ignored here, the safety and privacy concerns for porn performers should be obvious.
The reason I am writing this on your talk page and not asking for the issues to be addressed on the talk pages is that this seems to be a systemic issue. I have checked on a few other language Wikipedias and they also have the "real names" and unacceptable sourcing. Wikidata has the "real names". There is a talk page discussion on Spanish Misplaced Pages which uses a Los Angeles court document to confirm the name. Someone even uploaded part of that document to Commons. Fixing two articles on English Misplaced Pages will not fix the problem. This is a project-wide issue. I have not looked at other porn performer articles on other projects, but my suspicion is that this is not an isolated case.
I know that the Board (and you, personally) are concerned with respect for living people, but resolutions are not addressing this very real problem. WP:BLP is not addressing this very real problem. Jimmy, I ask you and the board to find ways to prevent things like this from happening again and again. Thank you. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 21:20, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Just an observation, rather than a comment on the specifics, but I'd have thought that having the real name of a performer (any performer, in any genre) was more or less a prerequisite for writing a meaningful biography about them. One certainly shouldn't be presenting promotional material about an on-screen persona as if it represents reality. If we can't source biographical content discussing the real life of an actual performer in a meaningful way, without violating Misplaced Pages policy, we shouldn't be creating such supposed 'biographies' at all. 'Biographies' built around the commercially-convenient fantasies of the adult film industry have no place on Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Don't see a huge problem with the real name, it's in enough sources even if a lot of them are tabloid and/or flaky. Is there really a debate that it is not her real name? I have however removed some of the more salacious details from the controversy section, purely because it really isn't needed - if anyone wants to read the details, the sources are there. Black Kite (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Black Kite I'm looking at the Emily Willis article right now (after your changes) and there is literally no source given for the name. The source given for the sentence that contains the birth date is link to an interview which does not contain any reference to the birth date. Those are very basic elements of any biography and covered by multiple rules and guidelines here. If you, an experienced admin, can overlook these types of obvious things, how can an inexperienced user be expected to create policy-compliant articles?
- You also left in the New York Post source, as well as one from something called "My News LA". Are either of those acceptable sources for a biography of a living person? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Fair point. I've removed the NYP source, but I have no knowledge of "My News LA" (sounds a bit tabloid, but looks ... not too bad? Needs a RSP discussion, probably). However you are absolutely right about the name, and I've removed it. (Edit: and the DOB). Black Kite (talk) 22:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- Quick note: it's late in the evening here now, so I won't be able to monitor the article, but I have watchlisted it. If there's anything else that you think should be removed, be bold and do it. I'll be quite happy to fix any issues with it tomorrow morning. Black Kite (talk) 22:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Black Kite Thank you for making those changes. I don't want to get bogged down in the details of one particular article on English Misplaced Pages since this is a problem replicated across multiple projects and multiple articles, but you are proving my point about the lack of concern for the privacy (and, quite possibly, safety) of the living people who have articles on Misplaced Pages. I shouldn't have to point out basic things like that. As it is, I'm sure someone will eventually (and correctly) remove the "controversy" section, and I'm sure that if the article doesn't get deleted, someone else will eventually add back the unsourced name, the unsourced birth date, and the allegations that this woman had sex with a dog. The question is how do we avoid that happening, not what do we do to fix it now that it has happened. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- How to avoid such things happening? Stricter notability requirements for biographies of living persons, along with an approval process that requires assessment by uninvolved experienced contributors before the article goes live, and the automatic implementation of pending changes for all such biographies. Good luck getting consensus for that though... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Fair point. I've removed the NYP source, but I have no knowledge of "My News LA" (sounds a bit tabloid, but looks ... not too bad? Needs a RSP discussion, probably). However you are absolutely right about the name, and I've removed it. (Edit: and the DOB). Black Kite (talk) 22:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see why we need to include the real name of a performer unless that name is (reasonably) widely published and the performance has not taken steps to try to distance themselves from that name. If the person is only widely discussed under their performance name, and you have to dig (perhaps beyond the bounds of RS) to find the real name, the real name shouldn't be there at all. Masem (t) 02:04, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- If it were possible to create properly-sourced biographies of performers under such circumstances, you might well be correct. In practice though, as has been previously noted when attempting in the past to deal with the proliferation biographies of adult film industry performers sourced solely to the industry's own media, one is very often dealing with fictional publicity material. Not just stage names, but stage 'biographies'. Not something we should be making an article out of. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:40, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- If the only reliable sources for someone's biography is known fiction, and we're turning to less-than-reliable sources for the "truth", that's a problem. Further, if we know that these are fictional biographies, and there's no other indicators of notability, then absolutely yes we should not have an article on these people in the first place.
- I'm thinking on the broader picture in that we have had people like Bansky who are clearly notable but that have generally shied away or purposely kept their real identity a secret. And I could easily imagine there are porn actors in a similar situation in that they are notable under their pseudonym but have not publicly revealed their real identity, though likely there are aggressive fact-finders that have dug into the real name published in less-than-reliable sources. That's what I think we absolutely give the edge to avoiding the real name in the first place. Masem (t) 13:13, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- If it were possible to create properly-sourced biographies of performers under such circumstances, you might well be correct. In practice though, as has been previously noted when attempting in the past to deal with the proliferation biographies of adult film industry performers sourced solely to the industry's own media, one is very often dealing with fictional publicity material. Not just stage names, but stage 'biographies'. Not something we should be making an article out of. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:40, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- Don't see a huge problem with the real name, it's in enough sources even if a lot of them are tabloid and/or flaky. Is there really a debate that it is not her real name? I have however removed some of the more salacious details from the controversy section, purely because it really isn't needed - if anyone wants to read the details, the sources are there. Black Kite (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
I am disappointed to see that readers of this talk page seem to be more interested in discussing what you might do with a completely fanciful billion dollars than they are in dealing with the privacy and safety concerns of real people. No one has even been bothered to remove the completely unsourced "real name" from the Elsa Jean article which I pointed out in my first posting here. Jimmy, the policies, guidelines, and Board Resolutions don't seem to be working. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:29, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- She's quite open about her name, for example right in the title of her Instagram Sapphire Howell (@elsajeanofficial). It's also printed prominently on her covers for Glamour Magazine Bulgaria, and Harper's Bazaar Vietnam. GRuban (talk) 06:22, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GRuban If she's "quite open about her name" it should be easy to find reliable secondary sources that confirms it. You've been on Misplaced Pages for over 18 years. You know (or should know) what WP:BLP says. Yet when I bring this up here as a systemic issue, I get you and admin Black Kite making statements that go directly against clear policy. This is exactly my reason for trying to get Jimbo's attention - what we are doing now isn't working. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 16:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- Three, right there. She is giving her name on her own web site. That is a reliable source. She sayin "these are articles about me". Those are reliable secondary sources. Which part is missing?GRuban (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GRuban Just to be clear, you're saying that the cover of a fashion magazine which does not use both names (real and stage name) is a reliable source for the "real name"? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know what her "real name" is, quite possibly both are aliases, I never heard of her before you posted on Jimbo's talk page here. (Edited Dec 18: Actually the Glamour Bulgaria does say it is her real name.) However, when someone makes a social media account called JaneDoeOfficial, they are, in fact, openly claiming to be Jane Doe. This account is ElsaJeanOfficial; it's got 3 million followers, it's not a fly-by-night-made-yesterday. Click on the Press link right at the top there, it goes over her articles, from two Business Insider articles calling her "Elsa Jean ... retiring from the mainstream adult-film industry", to the Glamour and Harper's Bazaar articles I already linked calling her Sapphire Howell. Those do each use both names, in fact: "Talent: Sapphire Howell @elsajeanofficial." "Талант: Sapphire Howell @ElsaJeanOfficial". Each of those articles about Sapphire Howell says her podcast is Heartbreakers, which is "Heartbreakers" with Elsa Jean & James Maas ... a unique take on sex, love, dating and relationships from a former porn star and a gay pop singer. The Linktree right at the top of that account] goes to her Playboy pictorial and her Fleshlight, all as Elsa Jean, and also her Thrissle articles as Sapphire Howell. There is no end of the reliable sources here; yes, sources from her are perfectly reliable for what her name is, that's called WP:ABOUTSELF, we do, in fact, almost always take a person's word for it when they say "this is my name" (exceptions include Anna Anderson ...
). --GRuban (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GRuban If what you say is correct, we should not have to rely on assumptions to verify the name. The information should be available in reliable sources in the form of statments that Elsa Jean's real name is X. I'm going to remove the name and start a discussion at the BLP noticeboard. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Just because an account is named "<Person>Official" does in no way assure that that Person made or is in charge of that account. We need something akin to the blue checkmark that Twitter used to have (prior to its acquisition) where we know there is a means that the service has confirmed the owner's identity, or something along those lines. Masem (t) 13:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Glamour and Harper's Bazaar say explicitly that Sapphire Howell is @ElsaJeanOfficial. But I see Counterfeit has started another discussion on WP:BLPN, accidentally also leaving out that part. I followed up there, saying that, and also giving multiple other sources, which are not hard to find. I'm all for "treating porn performers with respect", and taking their word for it when they say what their name is, is part of that. --GRuban (talk) 16:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- When you have those sources, that's fine (those are RSes). But again, the point still remains that simply an account that claims to be a real person should never be taken to be that real person until we have some type of confirmation by other RSes that that is the case. Masem (t) 16:36, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Of course. So we are in agreement that those are RSes? --GRuban (talk) 16:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GRuban I hope we can agree that regardless of whether or not reliable sources are found for the name, it should never have been included unsourced in a Misplaced Pages article. We can continue to discuss sourcing at BLPN, but I would like to stay on the larger issue here. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Of course. I am in agreement with your goal as stated and as I have quoted. However people are complicated. Some former porn stars conceal their past profession and try their best it never be associated with them. This person, however, seems to be fine with building on her past for her current career. We shouldn't confuse the two. GRuban (talk) 17:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GRuban I hope we can agree that regardless of whether or not reliable sources are found for the name, it should never have been included unsourced in a Misplaced Pages article. We can continue to discuss sourcing at BLPN, but I would like to stay on the larger issue here. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Of course. So we are in agreement that those are RSes? --GRuban (talk) 16:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- When you have those sources, that's fine (those are RSes). But again, the point still remains that simply an account that claims to be a real person should never be taken to be that real person until we have some type of confirmation by other RSes that that is the case. Masem (t) 16:36, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Glamour and Harper's Bazaar say explicitly that Sapphire Howell is @ElsaJeanOfficial. But I see Counterfeit has started another discussion on WP:BLPN, accidentally also leaving out that part. I followed up there, saying that, and also giving multiple other sources, which are not hard to find. I'm all for "treating porn performers with respect", and taking their word for it when they say what their name is, is part of that. --GRuban (talk) 16:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know what her "real name" is, quite possibly both are aliases, I never heard of her before you posted on Jimbo's talk page here. (Edited Dec 18: Actually the Glamour Bulgaria does say it is her real name.) However, when someone makes a social media account called JaneDoeOfficial, they are, in fact, openly claiming to be Jane Doe. This account is ElsaJeanOfficial; it's got 3 million followers, it's not a fly-by-night-made-yesterday. Click on the Press link right at the top there, it goes over her articles, from two Business Insider articles calling her "Elsa Jean ... retiring from the mainstream adult-film industry", to the Glamour and Harper's Bazaar articles I already linked calling her Sapphire Howell. Those do each use both names, in fact: "Talent: Sapphire Howell @elsajeanofficial." "Талант: Sapphire Howell @ElsaJeanOfficial". Each of those articles about Sapphire Howell says her podcast is Heartbreakers, which is "Heartbreakers" with Elsa Jean & James Maas ... a unique take on sex, love, dating and relationships from a former porn star and a gay pop singer. The Linktree right at the top of that account] goes to her Playboy pictorial and her Fleshlight, all as Elsa Jean, and also her Thrissle articles as Sapphire Howell. There is no end of the reliable sources here; yes, sources from her are perfectly reliable for what her name is, that's called WP:ABOUTSELF, we do, in fact, almost always take a person's word for it when they say "this is my name" (exceptions include Anna Anderson ...
- @GRuban Just to be clear, you're saying that the cover of a fashion magazine which does not use both names (real and stage name) is a reliable source for the "real name"? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- Three, right there. She is giving her name on her own web site. That is a reliable source. She sayin "these are articles about me". Those are reliable secondary sources. Which part is missing?GRuban (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GRuban If she's "quite open about her name" it should be easy to find reliable secondary sources that confirms it. You've been on Misplaced Pages for over 18 years. You know (or should know) what WP:BLP says. Yet when I bring this up here as a systemic issue, I get you and admin Black Kite making statements that go directly against clear policy. This is exactly my reason for trying to get Jimbo's attention - what we are doing now isn't working. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 16:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Lex Friedman interview
Hello, I saw the interview with you and Lex Friedman. It was great. I do have a theoretical question, If you were given 1 billion dollars, what would you do with it to improve Misplaced Pages? Waylon (he was here) (Does my editing suck? Let's talk.) (Also, not to brag, but...) 21:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
- I've given this a few days of thought, and I still don't have an answer. I can think of a lot of projects in the world where $1 billion would help. I can think of a lot of ways that Misplaced Pages could be improved. But the intersection of the two is really quite small, whereas the number of ways that $1 billion could cause Misplaced Pages problems is quite significant.
- I'm not saying absolutely no, of course. I mean, if the offer were made, of course the answer would almost certainly be yes. But there would be some real challenges that I would be concerned about. Happy to expand if this is too cryptic, but I'd also love to hear from others on this interesting thought experiment.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Buy it's way out from under WMF :-). North8000 (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- https://chat.openai.com/share/b0878f17-f14d-4708-bc20-62c6326a0f7f
- All pretty much what the Foundation already does, except "employing expert contributors" under #2. Sandizer (talk) 07:58, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- "employing expert contributors" would make Misplaced Pages more "Public Broadcasting System"-like. That's what PBS does with a lot of the money it raises, and what I suspect a lot of Misplaced Pages's financial contributors think Misplaced Pages does with its contributions, but doesn't. Rather they employ amateurs who pay for the privilege of editing via their tuition to the universities who partner with Wiki Ed. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not a thought experiment, I fully expect billionaires to fund Misplaced Pages (Misplaced Pages specifically aside from the "movement" and WMF salaries and tech, which will also be covered) to the tune of hundreds of millions a year. The slogan "W comes before X" summarizes the public and private appeal: Elon Musk inadvertently set a billion dollar challenge as doable, and others will also see the value in funding it (and Musk will come around, a mind such as his can wake up one morning and write a two hundred million dollar check simply because he already consciously and unconsciously recognizes the project's worth). A few presents under the tree:
- Fully and greatly fund the Wikimedia conferences for 1,000 editors. Reward them, they are the backbone - throw them yearly parties/educational sessions and venues, fully paid room and travel and then add on all the bells and whistles. A round figure of $3,000 American per person per four regional and one worldwide conference a year comes to only $15 million. Up that to 2000 editors and it's still only 30 million. Editors deserve it, billionaires can envision it, and any one of them could say upon a good meeting or lunch, "Yeah, I can cover that for ten years". Exceedingly doable and real (for example, I've been advocating VivaWikiVegas for a few years, and have put it forward as the theme of the 2026 25th Birthday North American Conference to augment the worldwide Paris event, both of which everyone should be fully funded to attend).
- Then a dozen other ways to make billionaires take notice and sign-on easily come to mind. Give major bot operators and creators a few thousand a year for their machines to run and to attend their own conferences. Send out Editor Exploration teams of four editors with varied interests on week or two-week visits to specific cities or sites to research and write articles, backed-up by teams of four at home base who will communicate with them daily and serve as the four to take the next Editor Explorartion (to expand out from Misplaced Pages, this would be ideal for Commons editors). And fully fund Wikigroups (an aside, at the recent North American Conference, in-between great lunches and the occasional bomb threat, I thought I heard that some Wikigroups actually need funding, which I found hard to believe given that Misplaced Pages is already the backbone-presence for WMF funding, so it's possible I misheard).
- Will stop short of adding more ideas for ease of post-length. But yes, a billion to start is not a thought experiment but is tomorrow's reality based educational playground and work-station. Actively planning for that now, and actively putting the outreach in motion, seems reasonable. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. Conferences are great. The more scholarships, the better. The more conferences, the better.
- More developers. Every file in MediaWiki core, every extension, and every skin should have a team assigned to maintain it. We should fill up the list at mw:Developers/Maintainers. There's an awful lot of "unassigneds" on there.
- More endowment. The endowment is like a retirement account. A big windfall will let us "retire" earlier and start pulling that money out, instead of sitting and waiting for it to grow. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I know what I'd do. Host large-scale Misplaced Pages improvement contests with amazing prizes and try to attract thousands of new editors. Wouldn't be "paid editing" if you could offer grants to students and things of esteem etc. Perhaps create a 1 Million Article Destubathon and start to massively reduce our 3.7 million stubs or whatever it now is. I'd put my own money into it if I was super rich! Even with £10,000 a year I could do a lot. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- Prizes for backlog drives, too. Sandizer (talk) 21:44, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Will stop short of adding more ideas for ease of post-length. But yes, a billion to start is not a thought experiment but is tomorrow's reality based educational playground and work-station. Actively planning for that now, and actively putting the outreach in motion, seems reasonable. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- Dreaming about this is like dreaming about Wikimedia Foundation got a Nobel Peace Prize next year. -Lemonaka 12:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Anne Hathaway
Dear Mr Wales, I am a regular user of Misplaced Pages and I noticed the following comment in the article of Anne Hathaway, Shakespeare’s wife: “Harris believed that "Shakespeare's loathing for his wife was measureless" because of his entrapment by her and that this was the spur to his decision to leave Stratford and pursue a career in the theatre.” Apparently in the opinion of this scholar, Ms Hathaway entrapped Shakespeare by getting pregnant. A woman does not entrap a man by getting pregnant. A woman cannot get pregnant without the input of a man. He is responsible for his own actions (and body fluids). Moreover, at that time, she had little choice but to get pregnant...If this opinion needs to be included, it should say something like: "According to Harris, Shakespeare measureless loathing for his wife was caused by his lack of desire to marry her after getting her pregnant." Right?
Young men and women read these comments from scholars and, because they are included in Misplaced Pages, they may think this type of opinion is valid; whereas it is obviously sexist and misogynistic. Should Misplaced Pages publish misogynistic opinions? My kids are likely to come across Anne Hathaway in their studies and read this article. Could you please get it changed for the sake of the next generation's education? I am not a regular contributor so my changes will no doubt be removed from such an important article. Many thanks and wish you a wonderful Christmas. Sofia. Sofiairiondo (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Sofiairiondo. Talk:Anne Hathaway (wife of Shakespeare) may be a better place to post your message. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:30, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, that's good advice. Speaking only to broad general principles, which may be helpful to some degree in this case, we will often be confronted with opinions stated by reliable sources in the past which strike us as offensive or otherwise problematic today. We shouldn't always therefore simply hide those views or dismiss them out of hand, but we should take care to contextualize them appropriately. For example, in this case Sophia is objecting (rightly, in my view) to the old fashioned view of "entrapment" and so rather than use the word ourselves (in the voice of Misplaced Pages, as it were) we should quote from the original if that's possible. Reading the rest of the passage we see that Harris's view is far from universally held, which is all the more reason to treat it with due caution. It is noteworthy that the word 'entrapment' doesn't appear in the source. (Although a cursory reading of the passage in question leaves little doubt that Harris thought in those terms more or less at least. source)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:47, 20 December 2023 (UTC)