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Aredoros87

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Aredoros87

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

KhndzorUtogh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Aredoros87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 22 November 2023 Immediately restores their extremely contentious additions accusing someone of having "sympathy to Nazism" after not replying to a talk page discussion for over a week
2. 23 November 2023 Now adding additional heavily biased sources that contain Armenian genocide denial and inflammatory/offensive comments about Armenians ("Armenian claims related to the traumatic events of 100 years ago", "support claims of Armenian victimhood", "Armenians seem to exhibit amnesia about their brethren’s participation") ("the Michigan Armenian lobby that in all likelihood has been greasing her political career") and otherwise ridiculous false WP:UNDUE claims ("It is practically unknown to most that Armenian antisemitism played a weighty role in Hitler’s Final Solution")
3. 15 December 2023 Makes a WP:PA against me ("Is this the way that you discredit authors that you dislike?") and that I "unlawfully" did the same in an AFD that everyone except Aredoros87 supported. When the previously mentioned genocide denying and xenophobic sources are pointed out to them, Aredoros87 denies those sources have offensive and undue claims
4. 15 December 2023 Continued edit warring and restoring these unreliable sources after all of the issues with them were pointed out

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Participated in process about the area of conflict (that is, requested same sanction against me with diffs that didn't merit action), on 5 December 2023.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Just that I didn't want to make an AE report on Aredoros87 any time soon after they made one about me, until they made a personal attack. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

@Grandmaster: Did you even realize that the UN report is ALREADY IN the article (second to last paragraph) but in a proper context? Did you know that you had added the same information twice? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aredoros87:

1. List article is a copy of an article that was already deleted in an AFD consensus
2. I reverted a topic banned user blocked as a result of making that edit.
3. Okay, how about a source from the Turkish Foreign Minister? "Reynolds does not categorize the Armenian events of 1915 as genocide"
4. You added a source blaming Armenians for the Final Solution and still reverted it back.

You weren't involved in #1-3 at all. Why is the first time you are making any issue of them while asking for sanctions (again)? This is the exact same thing that Firefangledfeathers ScottishFinnishRadish had described two weeks ago, that you are still throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

@Callanecc:

• I was literally quoting the closing statement, closed with no formal action. I took the advice to follow WP:BRD very seriously, and have already demonstrated doing so. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 06:47, 25 December 2023‎ (UTC)

@Callanecc: @Vanamonde93: Please allow me to explain in detail, I had summarized "nothing to support any action" based on these quotes: the "no formal action" closing statement, "I'm not seeing enough in those three diffs to support any sanction", "I'm thinking to close this with no other action", and a final comment by Firefangledfeathers advising Aredoros for bringing weak cases to AE and for misrepresented consensus (and yet Aredoros still doing that here). I had never meant to imply that I had nothing to improve myself, I took the BRD advice very seriously and have applied it since. I was only trying to illustrate Firefangledfeathers's final point which was primarily in support of warning the OP Aredoros for a very weak report. I acknowledge my words incorrectly implied there was nothing I could've done better, but please consider that I tried to keep my words simple and few because of the word limit and respect for the admins time, which is what I think caused this misunderstanding.

And for 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, I just recalled that it was Grandmaster who first changed the section wording, which they omitted mentioning. Grandmaster was a party to the AA3 case and put on indefinite probation. Indefinite probation meaning, any further edit warring should mean an immediate topic ban. Grandmaster has been edit warring with this same UNHCR statement, using it long after the ceasefire to imply to massacres before it and then, when another user removed it, reverted them and adding the same statement back. This is also the second time Grandmaster tried to tag team in an AE report I created, previously trying to claim obvious selective removal of information was not selective. This now appears to be battleground mentality. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 19:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

"That's how I realized that KU often knowingly misinterprets information/sources/rules"

Aredoros not only neglected to explain their personal attacks to instead throw as much mud as possible (despite being explicitly told not to do that), they are even making new personal attacks in this very thread. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

"it feels like he wants to remove that article at any cost" yet another casting WP:ASPERSIONS personal attack in this thread by Aerodoros, this time at HistoryofIran. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I am aware of the WP:BRD process and WP:CONS building. I do my best to avoid edit warring and work together with other editors, not against them. On one article I was reverted and never reverted the other user back, instead I had a long discussion that the other user who eventually stopped replying a month ago, but I still haven't reverted them since. Callanecc has voiced the concern 'while KU has provided some examples what I think they've demonstrated is that they were doing it sometimes but not in this instance'. In those instances, I felt what I was reverting had to be removed immediately for MOS:ALLEGED in a contentious subject and WP:LIBEL, which states to remove the material when identified. I was only trying to do what I thought the guidelines required; I generally don't mind leaving my changes reverted until a consensus is reached. I didn't even want to make this report, a lot of other users probably would've done so immediately after Aredoros used a source denying the Armenian genocide (explicitly condemned in WP:GS/AA) but I instead wanted to explain why that kind of source isn't reliable. I only felt compelled to make this report after the personal attack. If my understanding of the alleged and libel pages was incorrect, I apologize, and will be even more careful to avoid edit warring in the future. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 18:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Aredoros87

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Aredoros87

R1.KU presented diffs in a misleading timeframe, but:

1. I added(14/11/23) sources(;) day after KU claimed that sources don’t mention it. After his revert(21/11/23), I assumed his WP:GF in edit-summary and talk-page.
2. He cherry-picked and calledthe source "propaganda". Then complained about WP:RSAGE and asked more sources. Then claimed the source was primary and removed content from articles. (;). Again claimedsource doesn't mention what I said. I listed all mentionings.Then KU repeats same arguments and tries to discredit all 8 sources. For example, he claims author has "COI" because he gave an interviewabout political-economical relations, or tries to discredit source because author is founder of AZ-US cultural foundation.
3. Calling well-known scholar "genocide-denier" because he said"I cannot make juridistic assestments" is nonsense.
4. Last message on talk-page was posted by me(23/11/23). After ~month(14/12/23) KU suddenly deletedcontent with 8 sources. Then I restored and talkedabout it.

R2.I support WP:BOOMERANG. KU constantly POV-pushes:

1. redirected article, claiming it was "copy" of another article. In reality, KU deleted well-written and sourced articleand redirected to low-quality article.
2. claimed to be restoring removed citations. In reality, KU removed sourced information about Turkic inhabitants.
3. changed "Claims of violence against Armenians" to "Massacre of Armenians," saying it's massacre as there's confirmation of civilian killed. However, no reliable source supports that. Even UN stated "there's no violence"against civilians.
4. discredits sources he doesn't like as "partisan” and parallelly defends partisan outlets like Armenian Revolutionary Federation

R3.I sincerely apologize for inconvenience I have unintentionally caused. As a newcomer, I made efforts to familiarize with Misplaced Pages policies, but I now realize–I should be more patient in editing and commenting, and I promise to learn. I must admit, I was confused by double-standards of experienced editors: when I raised concerns about sources, I was reverted, and was told sources not listed in WP:RSP are reliable. However, same user reverted my edits on another article, saying sources are unreliable, even though they weren't in WP:RSP.

That's how I realized that KU often knowingly misinterprets information/sources/rules. For example, KU even in AE:

- referenced a dubious sourcewrongly claiming that "children being beheaded," however source states: "five civilians died as a result of shelling".

- says he deleted the article as there was an AFD in 2018. But, KU fails to mention AFD was about one-entry article with no sources, whereas deleted article had 12,000bytes and 9 sources. Why didn’t he merge content to improve Misplaced Pages, but choose deleting? Just compare before and after.

- says he was reverting edits of banned user. I didn't find policy justifying that. Moreover, his edit comment was, "Restoring removed citations", but now claiming he was reverting.

@Vanamonde93: I would like to let you know that I didn't write that article, but translated. Aredoros87 (talk) 21:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Just briefly, re reverting banned user edits, see WP:BANREVERT and WP:BLOCKREVERT. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

R4.@Black Kite: I found “Good article” and decided to translate it. I admit, article I translated isn't perfect. I guess I expected that it'll require collaboration to improve, since it was first article I ever translated. I like translating articles and always announce what articles I'm planning to translate. Everyone are welcomed to help me with translation in a friendly and constructive way.

I learned original author is banned here only during AfD, when I tried to invite him for discussions.. Is it prohibited to translate article if author is banned here?

HistoryofIran took article straight to AFD, which was closed with no consensus to delete, but with recommendation to improve it though editing. Immediately after HistoryofIran requested title change and started removing parts of article. While I agree with some of removals, some I don’t really understand. However, when I tried to join the talk , I felt strong tension from the HistoryofIran, so I decided to leave it for more experienced editors to deal with. Aredoros87 (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

R5.@Firefangledfeathers@Black Kite@Callanecc Let me explain myself. I'm new to Misplaced Pages, and I admit I'm not perfect. I sincerely apologize for inconvenience I unintentionally caused and assure you I'm learning from these incidents to avoid repeating them.I have no one to mentor me, my learning process revolves around familiarizing myself with policies and observing the editors I encounter. HistoryofIran, I apologize if I somehow offended you. I didn't mean to, I was simply tying to express how I felt during our interaction. I didn’t mean to WP:PA anyone,and I apologize if I did. I realize that I was genuinely confused, because as new editor I was partially mirroring experienced editors I encounter. It's difficult to explain, but I'll attempt to explain by example: I noticed Beshogur raised WP:NPOV and WP:REDFLAG concerns and reverted edit and then KU reinstated it without engaging in any discussion, but with the addition of new material I now understand this wasn't correct way of editing, and the best course of action is to initiate a discussion and refrain from making edits until consensus is reached. However, at time, I believed it to be the norm. It feels unfair to be indefinitely banned for beginner mistakes I made while just starting to learn or for the flaws in first article I had ever translated. Aredoros87 (talk) 09:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Grandmaster

Per WP:Boomerang, I think it would be appropriate to look into KhndzorUtogh's own recent activity. Today he removed from 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh the information provided by the top international organization, the UN, claiming that the UN info was false, despite no authoritative international organization or other third party source contesting it: Previously, he was among those who objected to inclusion of the same information in the related article of Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. In order to resolve the dispute, I followed the advice of an admin and did an RFC on whether the UN information on violence against civilians during the recent hostilities should be included or not. The overwhelming community consensus was that the UN information should be included, and it was restored to the article. Now KhndzorUtogh removes the same information from another article on the related topic, despite the clear community consensus that this information is relevant to the topic. Do we have to do RFCs on the same topic on every article concerning the same event, or it is enough to form the community consensus once and follow it? Grandmaster 10:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

The information about the UN mission at the bottom of the article omits any mention of the UN mission report that it "did not come across any reports — either from the local population or from others — of violence against civilians following the latest ceasefire". This is the same situation that led to RFC in the article about the flight of Karabakh Armenians, where the UN mission was mentioned, but the part about civilian casualties was omitted. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians are pretty much the same article split in 2, as one event led to the other. The arguments against inclusion of the UN mission findings about violence against civilians were discussed in much detail during the RFC, and were rejected by the community, but KhndzorUtogh keeps bringing them up again on a related article. Grandmaster 10:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

With regard to this diff, when the UNCHR statement was removed with the comment that its place implied a rebuttal of a later statement by another source, I rearranged it chronologically to address the concern, when that was reverted by the same user, I continued discussion at talk. It is also worth mentioning that back in 2021 there was a complaint about KU , then a new user, of undoing edits by the same above-mentioned banned user Curious Golden regardless of their merit, and he was advised by the admins against doing that. Grandmaster 23:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers. I only restored the content because the reverting user stated in his edit summary that its place implies that it serves as a rebuttal to the claim by Manasyan, but its date is wrong for it to do so. As one can see my edit summary, I put all the sources in chronological order, added date to UNHCR report, thinking that it would address his concerns. But when the same user removed the content second time, this time saying nothing about placement, but claiming that it was generally "dated" , I continued the discussion at talk. The only reason that I restored the UNHCR was that I thought that the objections could be addressed by sorting information according to their dates. I always try to resolve disputes in accordance to the rules, and it was me who started the RFC, and I've been considering another RFC on the same issue, and sought an advice from Callanecc . I was just unsure whether it was worth doing a repeated RFC on the same issue. I think we see stonewalling from KU, because first they argued that the UN was undue, when the community rejected that, he said that the UN was "dated", while there was no information from the UN or any other independent party that would supersede it. When asked which Misplaced Pages rule requires to use only "up to date" info, KU referred to MOS:DATED , which in fact is not a rule, but a guidance on how to format articles, and it says quite the opposite, that the information needs to be dated precisely. A user who's been around for 2 years should be able to understand the rules. Grandmaster 09:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by HistoryofIran

"I would like to let you know that I didn't write that article, but translated" Didn't wanna take part in this, but I find this somewhat disingenuous and deflecting. No one forced you to translate that mess, which is full of non-WP:RS and misused citations (I had to use 2 ish hours to only somewhat clean it up), not to mention the disconnected info, and bizarre claim of all Turks in that area and period being "Azerbaijani", an ethnonym which was not even present back then. The original article was created by a user who is indeffed in the English Misplaced Pages , and to make it worse, you have openly stated that you're planning to translate more of their messy (essentially WP:POVFORK) articles . This is quite concerning, especially when there are suspicions of you not being new here . Moreover, you were not cooperative in the AFD despite the evidence presented, even making a suggestion seemingly based on the one given by the indeffed user , but worse. While they suggested changing it to "Turkic-Mongol cultural relations in the South Caucasus and Iranian Azerbaijan", you suggested it as Turkic-Mongol cultural relations in the Caucasian and Iranian Azerbaijan, despite this clearly contradicting the presented WP:RS (there was no "Caucasian Azerbaijan" at that time). You then amongst other things went on to repeat the same suggestion at Talk:Azerbaijani-Mongolian cultural relations. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:17, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you thought you would gain by this, going more after me than addressing the concerns I made. Quoting a 7 year old comment when I was a brat and didn't know better, not to mention casting random accusations, especially when the WP:RS is literally there for you to read ; "I'm really struggling to understand why HistoryofIran is so harsh, it feels like he wants to remove that article at any cost. I can only guess that it's something personal,". And you're not really being completely honest here either, I did not merely "remove parts of the article" and the recommendation was not merely "to improve it though editing", the AFD , talk page and my edit summaries are there for everyone to see it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Clerk work (Aredoros87)

• I don't intend to respond here except as a clerk. Aredoros87, you greatly exceeded your word limit, and I have cut your most recent response. You are free to shorten your statement to accommodate further responses—as long as you don't meaningfully change any part that has been responded to—or request a word limit extension. Please assume that you will need space for further replies and trim accordingly. I'm unlikely to accept an extension request until it's clear that responding admins would benefit from further info, but such a request might be granted by someone else. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC) striking a bit 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
• KhndzorUtogh: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
• Grandmaster: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
• A note in case it helps: I'm unlikely to grant word limit extensions at this time. I think the current length is already a barrier in getting admin attention. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• I granted KU and GM another 200 words each per requests at my user talk and am granting Aredoros87 the same for fairness. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Result concerning Aredoros87

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I said I was just going to clerk, but I forgot I'd reviewed a prior dispute between these two. Might have thoughts later, but I'd prefer to hear from other admins first. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
• It seems like there are two issues here:
  1. A87's and KU's conduct at Ruben Darbinyan and its talk page.
  2. A87's and KU's conduct in the wider AA topic area.
• I think there's enough evidence presented—which I haven't reviewed quite enough yet to suggest any action—for responding admins to come to some sort of conclusion for #1, even if that conclusion is inaction. I think it makes sense to start small and go big, so I'd prefer to postpone review of #2 or have it take place in a separate filing. A narrow finding of fact might be useful in processing the wider issue. I'm partially favoring this process option because I, and probably many admins, will be busy with holiday obligations for the next week or so. Any admin that's enthusiastic about a wider and deeper review should go ahead. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
  • I'm grateful for the additional analysis. I'll say that I really did mean for the advice to KU to be a non-warning. I don't think we're quite at "something must be done", but I do agree that some sanctions could help relieve contention in this topic area. I'm pro-IBAN. As I understand the ban, they could still bump into each other, but they'd need to neutrally seek dispute resolution—without comment on the other party—rather than debate 1 on 1 and revert war. A TBAN from just Nagorno-Karabakh wouldn't cover something like the Darbinyan article. How about a shorter AA-wide TBAN? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
    • Rather than a TBAN I'd be okay with trying an individual consensus-required type restriction where if their edits in the topic area are reverted they need to establish a consensus for the edit before readding it (with the usual exemptions). Ping Vanamonde93 for your thoughts. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
      Noting that I've changed my mind from my initial suggestion of a replacement to an IBAN (that is, a ban on reverting each other) as I just noticed above there is still commenting on each other above, rather than the substantative issue, when it's really not required. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
      • We've got something of a logjam of sanction proposals on the table. I think we're all in agreement that both editors need some sanction. I like Callanecc's most recent proposal, and I would love to see us wrap this up in the next 48 hours or so. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

• My analysis of the evidence presented above:

• I believe we're in WP:ARBAA3#Administrators encouraged territory so we're at a spot where sanctions are necessary. The goal of this thread will be to determine what those sanctions are.
• Aredoros87 filed an AE request concerning KhndzorUtogh earlier this month. The request was closed on 12 December with advice to both editors. For KhndzorUtogh to follow BRD more closely, check content they're adding to the lead is sourced and include reasons with reverts. A87 was advised to build a stronger case before coming to AE and not to cite consensus where none clearly exists. Given the history between these two editors of not working well together and that they've recently filed requests against each other a mutual interaction been seems a good starting point.
• Re KhndzorUtogh:

• Despite this month's AE thread being closed with advice to them, KhndzorUtogh says above that the the AE thread saw nothing to support any action against them which suggests that they don't feel they need to improve their conduct.
• I find this revert concerning given the reminder about BRD in the previous AE thread and that there was a talk page discussion underway that they had not contributed to and rather than do so first they reverted as the first step.
• At Ramil Safarov, while dismissing a concern A87 had about sources KU added to the article, KU implied that as the sources aren't listed at WP:RSP they are fine to use and reverted A87's removal of them.
• At 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, after the December AE thread was closed KU changed the section heading regarding civilian deaths from "Claims of violence against" to "Massacre of". Around 24 hours later this change was then reverted by A87. Approximately seven days later KU changed it to "Reports of violence against" without noting this in the edit summary. Neither change was discussed on the article talk page.
• At Ruben Darbinyan, KU edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 3 November (then started talk section) 21 November (seven days after last talk page reply) 13 December (three weeks after last talk page reply) instead of only engaging constructively in discussion to come to a resolution. KU's third revert occured after they had not replied on the talk page for three weeks following A87's most recent talk page comment and article edit.

• Re Aredoros87 :

• At Ruben Darbinyan, A87 edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 10 November (5 days after last talk page reply), 23 November 15 December. The last two reverts were following KU returning to the article after a break and reverting.
• A87 engaged in incivil behaviour and made a personal attack towards KU at Talk:Ruben Darbinyan.

Summary: As I said above the starting point for sanctions appears to be a mutual IBAN between A87 and KU. I'm currently considering whether further sanctions are necessary. That might be a crafted revert restriction (BRD with a long timeframe or a paired down version of something like consensus required) or a topic ban. I'm not convinced that this'd work in practice but another option might be that if a source they wish to use is challenged (including reverted) they need to establish a consensus in favour of using it (on the article talk page, RSN, etc) before they can readd it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• After seeing KU's reply I'm more inclined to TBAN than I was before. Their justification that they were quoting from the closure statement of the last AE request is patently false, "closed with no formal action" is not the same as "saw nothing to support any action". If they believe that that is a quote then I have no faith in their ability to assertain information from sources. In the last AE thread they were advised to follow BRD more closely and while KU has provided some examples what I think they've demonstrated is that they were doing it sometimes but not in this instance. For example, KU said that they added the "Massacres of..." section header and so when it was changed by someone else then didn't follow BRD when changing it back.
  I'm also more convinced of the POV editing from A87 and that to counter it required a TBAN, potentially limited to particilar areas around conflict in particular.
  Re Vanamonde93's suggestion of a logged warning, I think in some topic areas, especially where ArbCom has passed an "Administrators encouraged" remedy, we should look to seeing unlogged reminders/advice and logged warnings as effectively equivalent. If advice didn't work we should strongly consider skipping logged warnings in favour of more impactful sanctions. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Thank you for organizing this evidence, Callanecc. Regarding your second KU diff, hadn't they responded twice in the talk page discussion before reverting? As I see it, at the moment of their revert, there were two talk page participants in favor of including the UNHCR paragraph and two opposed, and I'm surprised to see that GM restored the content while consensus was so unclear. GM was leaning on an RfC at a different article, with disagreement about its applicability being reasonable. Am I misreading? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, you're correct. I suspect I misread the month of the edit. I've struck it above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• This is a difficult situation, that is in many ways similar to nationalist POV disputes in other contemporary ethno-nationalist conflicts. It's made more difficult by the fact that many sources are not in English, and assessing their quality and partisanship is therefore very challenging. I'm seeing sub-par behavior from both editors that smacks of POV intent; reverting while discussion is ongoing, using marginal sources to support a preferred version of content but opposing sources of similar quality elsewhere, using marginal sources to make the most sweeping statements possible, edit-warring slowly instead of discussing (not every behavior is visible for both users). KU is also showing some evidence of stonewalling/filibustering, while I'm more concerned at A87's use of sources (including at this AfD, that isn't mentioned here AFAICS). That said, I'm not necessarily seeing a smoking gun here that would justify a draconian sanction (such as a CT-wide TBAN); and I'm not sure what lesser scope I would choose. Callanecc, I'm somewhat opposed to an IBAN. This isn't a particularly wide topic; I find it difficult to believe these two can continue to edit constructively in this topic without running into each other constantly. I would prefer a logged warning about battleground behavior. Vanamonde (Talk) 13:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  @Callanecc: I share your concern about KU's response to the previous AE. I remain opposed to an IBAN, but as I said above I would consider a TBAN of limited scope. My hesitation is with finding appropriate scope. In my assessment KU has been more immediately disruptive within the locus of the present-day dispute between the two countries, and A87's behavior is concerning topic-wide, but I would not want to give A87 the wider sanction here. How do you (and Firefangledfeathers feel about a 3-month TBAN from the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict for both parties? That's the best I can come up with at the moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 09:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  @Callanecc: I'm okay with requiring both these editors to obtain consensus for their edits within this topic. I would like the closing statement also to remind them about battleground conduct, though, because we're entering territory where sanctions for battleground behavior may need to be applied with no further warning (I know we can do that already, technically, but it feels more reasonable to do so after a formal warning). Vanamonde (Talk) 14:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• I have to say that User:HistoryofIran's evidence is concerning. Black Kite (talk) 16:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
  • I agree. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Me too. I'm currently considering whether it pushes me over the line to TBAN. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposed sanctions

I've created this subsection so we can keep track of how we're closing this. I know it's not required but hopefully others find it useful. Admins feel free to add your username or other proposals. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
@Vanamonde93, Firefangledfeathers, and Black Kite: Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

• Aredoros87:

• Formal warning re battleground, ...

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

• IBAN from KhndzorUtogh

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

• Requirement to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area.

Support: Callanecc, Vanamonde, Firefangledfeathers

• TBAN from Azerbaijan

Support 3 months:

Support indef:

• TBAN from Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Support 3 months: Vanamonde

Support indef:

• TBAN from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and related ethnic conflicts, broadly construed

Support 1 month: Firefangledfeathers

Support 3 months: Firefangledfeathers

Support indef: Callanecc (see notes)

• KhndzorUtogh:

• Formal warning re battleground, ...

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

• IBAN from Aredoros87

Support: Callanecc, Firefangledfeathers

• Requirement to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area.

Support: Callanecc, Vanamonde, Firefangledfeathers

• TBAN from Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Support 3 months: Vanamonde

Support indef:

• TBAN from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and related ethnic conflicts, broadly construed

Support 1 month: Firefangledfeathers

Support 3 months:

Support indef:

Notes

I've supported an indef TBAN for A87 primarily based on HistoryofIran's evidence and A87's reply. I've gone for the indef as I believe that A87 needs to learn about Misplaced Pages's norms in other topic areas rather than just needing a break from the topic area and effectively 'waiting out' the TBAN. I'm considering the same for KU but haven't decided yet. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:45, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Closing

I'm intending to close with in the next 24 hours with the following sanctions:

Aredoros87

• formal warning re battleground editing and engaging construtively with consensus building
• IBAN from KhndzorUtogh
• indef restriction to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area
• 3-month TBAN from AA2 topic area.

KhndzorUtogh

• formal warning re battleground editing, edit warring and engaging construtively with consensus building
• IBAN from Aredoros87
• indef restriction to obtain consensus whenever their edits are reverted in AA2 topic area.

@Vanamonde93, Firefangledfeathers, and Black Kite: are you okay with those sanctions? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you for pushing this forward. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:42, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm okay with this, and thanks from me too. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, sounds good, thanks. Black Kite (talk) 13:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

שמי (2023)

Rsk6400

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Rsk6400

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Crash48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Rsk6400 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBEE

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• WP:STONEWALL:
  1. 13 November 2023 reverted my addition with the message stop edit warring. You have no consensus for that; two weeks earlier, on 29 October 2023, I had pinged him on the article talk page asking whether he had any opposition against my addition; Rsk6400 ignored my question, and it remains unanswered to this day.
  2. 13 November 2023 refused to state any specific reasons for reverting my addition when I asked him on his user talk page.
  3. 16 December 2023 claimed that most of the draft I created is original synthesis of primary sources; but then refused the moderator's request to identify the text that is synthesis from primary sources.

• WP:FILIBUSTER:
  1. 28 November 2023 feigned willingness to participate in a mediated DR; but then, over the course of a month, refused to suggest any specific change to the article, or to relate to any specific change suggested by me.
  2. 10 December 2023 stated that after a draft of the proposed article section is created, he'd like to take part in the process of improving the draft; but after the draft was created, he refused to contribute even a single edit to it.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict on 24 November 2023, and further warned by the DR moderator on 4 December 2023, on 5 December 2023 and on 22 December 2023 as he kept on filibustering without engaging in the discussion of the content whose inclusion he opposes.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See WP:DRN#Ukrainian language for the DR which is now closed as failed.

Earlier, on 20 September 2023, Rsk6400 stated that the reason why he reverted my addition was "because it was without context". Then, on 22 September 2023, Rsk6400 added a "context" to the article to his satisfaction; but he insists on reverting my addition even though the "context" he had required is now present.

The example when an editor refuses to accept a change unless some condition is complied with, but it is not a condition that has any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines is specifically listed as a case of stonewalling, and Rsk6400's condition that primary sources should not be used here has no basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines.

Regarding the accusations of me edit warring: WP:DRNC#How to respond to a "no consensus" edit summary advises, upon not receiving any response on the talk page from the revertor within a few days, to reapply the change, prior to taking the dispute to other forums. This is the recommended course of action that I followed, unlike Rsk6400 none of whose reverts was preceded with an attempt to discuss the content that he disputes.

@Mzajac: indeed, about a half dozen editors alleged that my proposed additions are WP:SYNTH. Each one of these editors refused to substantiate their allegations. The multitude of stonewalling editors expressing baseless allegations should not be mistaken for a consensus.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Rsk6400

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Rsk6400

The issue was discussed at

• Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• Talk:Ukrainian_language#Pereiaslav_and_Western_Ukraine
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Ukrainian_language
• After filing this request, Crash48 also started an RfC at Talk:Ukrainian_language#Request_for_comment_on_adding_a_section_on_the_names_of_the_language.

Re "Stonewall" 3: The moderator misunderstood my point, which was "The claim ... is not really supported by the source." (From the diff given by Crash48)

Re "Filibuster" 2: When I stated my willingness to improve the draft, there were three editors in the discussion. I was hoping that the third editor would provide a sensible draft, but they withdrew from the discussion.

I'll gladly answer to the other points if an admin has any questions.

Please note that Crash48 says that I "feigned willingness" (against AGF) and that they continued edit warring at Ukrainian language after they accepted the rules of the moderated discussion. I'll provide the diffs as soon as I can, but please excuse me for now because of Christmas celebrations (Happy Xmas to all who celebrate that feast !) Rsk6400 (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Please note that I informed the third party of the DNR of this discussion.

Replying to Robert McClenon's statement: It's not true that I "wanted to roll back the article to a stable version". I demanded that the rule be applied according to which the mediation failed because Crash48 edited the article after having accepted the rules. I also wanted that you saw that you were mistaken when saying that Crash48 made that edit "so soon after I provided the rules." It's also not true that you "had to" collapse much of the discussion. At least everything that I said was said for procedural reasons. The extracts from the discussion (8th to 10th statements) which you presented here are arbitrarily chosen. Of course, I said that "most" was original synthesis. But the most important claim was "not really supported by the source." I'm really at a loss how you could misunderstand me so often and so deeply. I reject your final statement that it was me who "made reasoned discussion impossible." Rsk6400 (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think I did anything that merits a formal TBAN, but I certainly lost my nerve and need to disengage from the topic. I just removed Ukrainian language from my watchlist and will not edit that page or anything belonging to the topic ("topic" as defined by WP:TBAN) for at least 12 months. Robert McClenon, I certainly didn't intend to gaslight you, Manyareasexpert explained my idea better than I did. Rsk6400 (talk) 11:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

I was the moderator at DRN of the dispute over the content of the Ukrainian language article. When I begin mediation of a content dispute about a contentious topic, I instruct the principals to acknowledge that they are aware that the topic is contentious. Some topics are subject to battleground editing because they have historically been real battlegrounds. Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, which is where World War Two began. It is also the location of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century.

This was a difficult mediation. Both Crash48 and Rsk6400 had to be warned. I had to collapse back-and-forth discussion. Rsk6400 wanted to roll back the article to a stable version, which I did not do, because my objective is to improve the article going forward rather than to go back. Rsk6400 wanted me to fail the mediation because Crash64 had edited the article after I had said not to edit the article. I could have failed the mediation at this point, but chose not to do so, because I was trying at least to get the parties to agree as to what they disagreed about.

Things got worse on 20 December, when I tried to explain what I saw as the situation. I thought that I was quoting Rsk6400, and they denied having said that there was original synthesis from primary sources. This appears to be an attempt to gaslight the moderator. I failed the moderation when I thought that I was being gaslighted.

In Rsk6400's Eighth Statement, they wrote:

Commenting on this version of the draft: Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1190235427&oldid=1190181961

So in my Tenth Statement, I wrote:

I was mistaken in my statement about what Rsk6400 wrote about Crash48's section on name. They said that the section consisted largely of synthesis from primary sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1190852606&oldid=1190699459

Then in Rsk6400's Tenth Statement, they wrote:

Dear moderator, the whole thing has become too frustrating for me. You misunderstood my eighth statement once again. The claim in the first sentence " the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" is not really supported by the source. The source (Flier & Graziosi) is of course a secondary source. I did not claim that this was original synthesis as you mistakenly claimed in your last statement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1191238647&oldid=1191110219

Maybe they aren't trying to confuse the moderator, which may be like trying to confuse a jury, but the effect is that they made reasoned discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, User:Manyareasexpert, for trying to explain what Rsk6400 is saying, but I am no longer mediating this dispute, and I do not plan to resume mediating it. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I think that I am over and out, but will need permission to add more words if I am pinged again. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Manyareasexpert

Greetings, just a small comment regarding "Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources" and "is not really supported by the source" to @Robert McClenon 's attention. Both can be true, the section of the text could be "original synthesis" mostly, and the particular sentence out of it may "not really be supported by the source". Indeed, if we look at the text Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48, it has an extensive collection of facts (primary sources) of how Ukrainian was named Little Russian and Ruthenian (confirming synthesis), and the best I can find confirming " the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" at the source given is ... the “Little Russian” language (the term used for Ukrainian in the Russian Empire)... and ... It was during this period that elites on both sides of the border began to apply the term Ukrainian to the varieties formerly called Ruthenian and Little Russian., and @Rsk6400 may hold the opinion that The source only makes the corresponding statement in a specific context, i.e. to specify the language it is talking about Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Eighth statements by editors (Ukrainian language) . Manyareasexpert (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Mzajac

Crash48’s proposed edits to the article have been extensively argued in multiple discussions as noted above by about a half dozen editors, including myself. They do not have consensus. They are not getting any closer to consensus.

Kudos to Rsk6400 for being the only one with the patience to continue engaging tirelessly with Crash48. They don’t deserve to be singled out and accused of obstruction, because they are not the only one opposed.

This is getting nowhere. It seems disruptive. It should end. The proposed changes shouldn’t be made without consensus, so maybe the best action is to declare a moratorium for a cooldown period while everyone involved continues with productive editing on other articles. —Michael Z. 03:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Rsk6400

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Crash48's contributions to the mediation are filled with sections where they demonstrate a battleground mentality. For example Third statement and Fourth statement.
  Robert McClenon's statement does a good job of summarising Rsk6400's stonewalling in this discussion. I also found Rsk6400's focus that the mediation should have failed when Crash48 edited the article exemplified their stonewalling and battleground mentaility throughout the mediation.
  Both editors also engaged in (slow) edit warring at the Ukrainian language article. Based on the above I would support topic banning both editors from the Ukrainian language. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Just noting that I'm intending to close this with the above sanctions in the next 18 hours or so. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:52, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nableezy

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – 20:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

90 day topic ban

Administrator imposing the sanction

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Notified

Statement by Nableezy

I was warned for this response to another editor on 01:22, 25 December 2023, a response that had already been modified prior to any warning for that matter (23:55, 24 December 2023). I was then topic banned with the diffs supporting the ban 12:27, 24 December 2023 (pre warning, though also cautioned about that edit on 13:37, 24 December 2023), this revert and edit summary, apparently for calling the grammar "trash", a response on my talk page about that edit (2023-12-25 22:14:30), and my participation at an AN thread. SFR has said these demonstrate a pattern of battleground editing, but I dont see how. He has also said that The individual interactions are not enough, in and of themselves, to sanction, e.g. your needlessly inflammatory edit summary (which should have been the first diff, not a repeat of the discussion on your talk page) which you tacitly admitted was unduly harsh. The problem is that it has remained a common occurrence after warnings. But the only thing that has been shown post warning is the AN thread and the revert/response on my talk page, all the other diffs pre-date that warning. And regarding the AN thread, in which I said that an editor calling a clearly good faith editor NOTHERE was uncivil and I criticized an editor attempting to overstate the level of consensus for sanctions, my views were basically accepted by an uninvolved admin (here) and another editor was convinced by my argument to adjust their previous position (here). I dont see how politely engaging in the substance of arguments on AN is "battleground mentality". I can admit that the 12:27, 24 December 2023 edit was SOAP in response to SOAP and I need to not do that, but it has not re-occurred since any warning. As far as the edit summary, I was unaware we may not criticize edits. The sentence was in fact poorly written, and I dont think it merits a topic ban to say that in an edit summary. We arent editing a fourth grade play here, this is supposedly an encyclopedia written in English, and criticism of poor English being placed in the leads of highly visible articles is not, in my view, any type of offense at all, much less evidence of "battleground behaviour" that merits a topic ban. SFR's claim that my supposed problematic behavior remained a common occurrence after warnings is unsubstantiated in my view. He has said he cautioned me to stop arguing with Andrevan, but I had no interaction ban and I do not know how to respond to people making arguments that I feel are misrepresenting both the sources and our policies without saying so. But given SFR's own admission that none of the edits merit sanctioning, and the fact that they all, excepting the edit summary calling poor grammar "trash" and the AN thread, pre-date any warning, I dont see how this ban is justified on the merits and I request it be vacated.

There are now several more diffs supposedly substantiating "veiled or not so veiled commentary on other editors' motives". Makes no mention of any motives, is a response to somebody citing NOTNEWS in a deletion discussion, which applies to routine announcements, is a remark on the systemic bias of covering all acts of Palestinian violence while not covering Israeli violence, is another remark on the systemic bias of requiring murder convictions to call the purposeful killing of a human a murder when the circumstances dictate that will never happen. None of those are about another editors motives. The last diff was a result of my misreading the prior comment, I read it as claiming that the IDF had not killed these three people, and I apologized immediately upon recognizing my error. And none of those demonstrate any ongoing issue post warning, being that they all came prior to the warning. Also, I dont think its really fair to after imposing a ban and having it appealed to then tack on other supposed issues. I would have addressed those in my initial statement if I had been aware they were considered in the original ban. nableezy - 21:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I can only answer for the diffs I’ve been given and I don’t think you have substantiated any disruptive pattern, and certainly not after your warning. nableezy - 22:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Would also request topic ban violations be enforced here. nableezy - 23:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

SFR no it’s an indication that I misread and that when I realized my error I recognized my mistake. We don’t typically hold against editors mistakes they make that they sincerely apologize for, without prompting by an admin I’d add. nableezy - 23:25, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

I provided a few diffs to demonstrate the problem was recent and continuing. I have also warned multiple times, , including here at AE . A warning also does not cancel out any prior issues, and I was placing warnings for behavior in real time while reviewing a vast corpus of discussions.

I have been asked by several editors in the area to just read the talk pages, and it will become clear where the problems lie. I have spent an enormous amount of time reading dozens of talk pages with what likely totaled a few hundred thousand words. What I determined is that there is persistent battleground behavior by many editors, and I acted to remove some of the worst actors temporarily, and one flagrantly disruptive one indefinitely. I don't have a large book of diffs because battleground behavior is a pattern, not single diffable. I was also reading many discussions, many of them weeks old, mostly on my phone. Looking up each diff of battleground conduct, incivility, unnecessary escalation, hostility, and extended unonstructive back and forths with the find addition/removal tool, or by trolling through histories of talk pages with thousands of edits was simply not feasible.

There are many examples going back of the disruptive behavior. Much of it, as I explained to Nableezy, would not be worth a sanction, or sometimes even a warning. Taken as a whole it demonstrates disruptive editing in the topic, hostile or dismissive responses towards those with a different POV on events or sources, and frequent veiled or not so veiled commentary on other editors' motives. (This last was apologized for, but look at the tone even in a misunderstanding). They also recognize this behavior in others . They have had to deal with a lot of bullshit, yes, but so has everyone in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Nableezy, I sanctioned you for a pattern of editing which I believe I explained at your talk page where I said The issue is with the consistent pattern of your editing, rather than any single specific diff. I included the diffs to show some recent behavior, but there have been dozens of instances of your behavior demonstrating a battleground mentality, an inability to keep calm in the topic area, and lashing out at other editors. and I didn't topic ban you for a single edit summary, I topic banned you for a pattern of behavior. A pattern of behavior is more than four diffs, and the pattern goes back for weeks, before and after the numerous warnings I gave. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

And yes, you did apologize for , as I noted, but your first response demonstrates how you've been reacting to other editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Coretheapple

I generally edit on popular culture nowadays. I started editing I/P about two weeks ago and found the atmosphere to be poisonous. I commend ScottishFinnishRadish for doing the hard work required to improve civility on that page.

When I began editing 2023 Israel-Hamas War, I made this comment on the talk page concerning an overlong paragraph: Perhaps what is being conveyed here can be described succinctly rather than reeling off what one media outlet after another said on this subject. The paragraph in question is overlong and disproportionate weight.

Nableezy responded . Guess it was the right amount of weight when it pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. II was new to the page, had never interacted with this editor before. I had never edited that paragraph before. I had never "pushed the lie" to which he referred. This was not "exasperation." He was questioning my motives.

Nor was it an expression of "exasperation" when he accused me of being a hypocrite. Such personal attacks are no longer prevalent on that talk page entirely due to ScottishFinnishRadish and him alone. Coretheapple (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Drmies

I don't wish to speak/act like an administrator here, but I do have two cents' worth. First, I understand SFR's verdict, but second, I believe that Nableezy was by no means the worst in these exchanges, and their tone was more of exasperation than of a battleground mentality. Both sides were not totally equal here, and I think the project would benefit from having Nableezy back in the game. It would be very nice if we had more uninvolved editors and admins active in these areas who could speak words of warning before things get out of hand between editors. Drmies (talk) 22:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Ah yes. “pattern of editing”. It’s one of those amorphous, ethereal, vague pretexts that are actually an admission of “I don’t really have any real diffs but I need to manufacture a reason here”. Especially when the diffs that are provided are such weak milquetoast as this. Some people see patterns - dragons, turtles, Jesus himself - in the clouds, others just see white fluff. Usually the “white fluff” people are right.

The above applies to not just Nableezy but a few others that caught a sanction here. All of these, with one possible exception, should be rescinded. Volunteer Marek 23:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Sluzzelin

I wouldn't word it the way Volunteer Marek did, and I don't think ScottishFinnishRadish is seeing Jesus in the clouds ... yet I agree with Volunteer Marek that these topic bans should be rescinded. Everyone's exasperated regarding the war, and it's impossible not to feel exasperated when reading the talk pages of most articles about the war. These are editors, however, who do try very hard to follow reliable sources, policies, and to avoid personalizing their comments or making forum-type contributions. I think en.wp needs to endure the possibility of occasional over-the-top escalations in this heated area, and manage them case by case. I certainly find the duration of the topic bans far too long. In my view, there also appears to be an intention of even-handedness in the making of these bans, and therefore I ask for all of them to be cancelled. Peace. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Objective3000

AMPOL is a picnic on a perfect, spring day compared to A-I. Nableezy has 52,000 edits, many in CTOP areas, without a block in a dozen years. It’s difficult to see a recurring pattern here. The constant influx of POV editors, many SPA, in the most C of CTOPs is going to result in moments of exasperation. From a purely technical POV, I don’t think SFR was out of line and I am delighted that some admins spend some time where angels fear to tread. But Nableezy is not the cause of the problems in A-I and his presence is valuable in keeping these articles within the boundaries of Misplaced Pages guidelines. This will always ruffle feathers as many editors in such topics put their personal beliefs over our guidelines. Nableezy’s responses here may sound defensive and defensive sounding appeals don’t go over well on this page. But I would sound defensive in this case also. In my mind, the best result is quick termination of the sanction. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Homerethegreat

Since I begun interacting with Nableezy I've felt a lack of understanding and respect and at times what has felt very clearly as complete lack of civility. Nableezy accused me of tag teaming ] without presenting evidence. I once wrote to Nableezy stating that I thought he/she/they had done a false edit summary and Nableezy responded with what really felt like a series of personal attacks ]. Nableezy said the following:

 "You have, consistently across a range of pages, attempted to skew the leads of articles by adding whatever bullshit you can Google up and stuff it in to the lead without a thought as to weight or how poorly you make the lead read. "

He also said this:

 " your complaint here is as low quality as most of your edits. "

Nableezy's inability to explain without using derogative terms and his negative style alarmed me.

In another edit the user said the following]:

 "...Both are accused of ongoing war crimes whereas France and those other countries you keep pretending like this compares to is not. Sorry, but no I do not need to accept your chosen framing in which you can fill the lead of Hamas with all sorts of hysteria..."

From this and other edits arouse the feeling of the inability for I and other users that do not think the same as Nableezy to cooperate since Nableezy's communications were negative in their style and tone were derogatory.

I have also seen Nableezy react in a way that can be insulting and also shows behavior that seems unaccepting and seems to show a mentality that does not accept cooperating with users that think differently (in his responses to BilledMammal)].

 "So you’re saying the UN secretary general said there is no bias? Cool cool. The section you linked to is filled with garbage sources like UN Watch, and you want to pretend like it should be treated as objective fact. Again, gaslighting, the abuser claims to be the victim to make you disbelieve anything said against them. Next you’ll tell me Btselem is antisemitic too."

 "The only people claiming a bias against Israel are highly partisan sources. It is gaslighting, an attempt to shield criticism by claiming to be the victim"

I've also seen Nableezy interact with other users in a way which is at minimum disrespectful.

Overall from very early on I have felt insulted and attacked by Nableezy at times resulting in a personal attack on me as a person. Over time this behavior seems to have worsened. There's no doubt Nableezy is a significant contributor to Misplaced Pages and has spent extraordinary amounts of time working on the encyclopedia. Perhaps it is really best for a 3 month cooling period so that the user can contribute with freshened mentality and politeness. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.