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Topic ban appeal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm here to appeal my topic ban from caste related articles that i recieved on 21 June 2021 : BLP, POV issues along with civility issues were cited as the reason for topic ban. :

In the future, I will only rely on broad perspective scholarly sources for the changes i wish to make and utilise venues such as WP:RSN and WP:DRN incase the dispute arises.

I will avoid making any edits that might be deemed promoting a POV. If I get reverted, I will seek consensus on the talk page and refrain from edit warring . I will not accuse or cast aspersions against any fellow editor. I will maintain civility and take additional time to seek the consensus.

It has been roughly two and a half years since I was topic banned from caste related articles, during this time my contribution has been constructive to Misplaced Pages, having brought Brajesh Singh to DYK section on Misplaced Pages's front page aswell as participating in recent NPP and AfC backlog drives. I have also been granted permissions such as new page patroller, rollback and pending changes reviewer. I have stayed out of trouble and I have not been blocked or received any other sanction other than this topic ban. I hope my topic ban will be lifted. Ratnahastin (talk) 11:21, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support Convincing appeal. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 12:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support - Ratnahastin deserves a chance to prove themselves. GoodDay (talk) 14:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support - I have been watching Ratnahastin edit since he was on a verge on getting topic banned. He has reformed big time as his appeal clearly shows and has been significantly productive for this site. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 16:57, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Dozens upon dozens of questionable redirects created by now-blocked user

• JailBrokenIPODGoneWild (talk · contribs)

Today I've discovered that Special:Contributions/JailBrokenIPODGoneWild, a user now blocked for harassment, had created dozens upon dozens of questionable redirects related to public transportation. The redirects are all from color terms to a specific transportation line or service in systems where lines are depicted with colors on maps but not referred to by color in conversation or in official operations. The problem is that these redirects have qualifiers in front of the color terms like "Dark" and "Light", when nobody speaks like that, at least not in America. Nobody will say "Take the Dark Red Line"; people just say "Take the Red Line". If a given system has multiple lines or services that share a core color with different shades, the core color title should be a disambiguation page. Example of redirects that I just turned into disambiguation pages today are Green Line (Metra) and Orange Line (Metra). Again, very few if anyone would actually use the color qualifiers in conversation and thus I'm led to conclude that these redirects are implausible. The issue is the sheer quantity of them - way too many to list at RFD. How do we proceed from here? Taking Out The Trash (talk) 21:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

• Holy crap. This user has created a whopping 12,000 redirects, and that's not including the 500ish additional redirects that have already been deleted. There's no way that all of those are valid. This may be a bigger issue than it seems on the surface. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Some redirects appear valid (e.g. List of countries by calling code) but the majority appear to be nonsense. I think we need community consensus to allow admins to review and delete at their discretion. GiantSnowman 22:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
• Looks like a 13k editor that was not blocked for socking, so WP:G5 and WP:NUKE is not an option here. Their activity and the block were both over a year ago. Looks like they were on the redirect autopatrol list at the time of their blocking, so all their stuff got autopatrolled. RAL at the time of their blocking, with them on it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
• Notified: Misplaced Pages talk:Redirects for discussion. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
• (from RFD): This is, uh, not good...

  The worst part is that many of the redirects look plausible, at least the most recently created ones.

  I think the best way to proceed is to have a formal, community-wide discussion on Are Such Redirects Helpful or Valid, preferably at the Village Pump, and if community consensus is that they are not, and that they would be deleted at RfD, then mass-delete them as a community action. (Non-administrator comment) Cremastra (talk) 22:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

• This user has had plenty of redirects come to RfD before and I think they should probably continue to be handled that way; I fear that the mere fact of being blocked for an unrelated reason could place unwarranted scrutiny upon these redirects. While some of these redirects may be undesirable, their problems seem at a glance to generally be in the class of "implausible search term", not very harmful, rather than "targets wrong place", actively harmful. At the least, the most recent redirects are very helpful creations. J947 ‡ 01:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

  • I skimmed through a few hundred of these redirects and most seem at first glance to lie somewhere in the space between "probably fine" and "implausible search term"; nothing Neelixual. Is there a way to find the ones that have inbound links? Folly Mox (talk) 03:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Was it unrelated? Was it for harassment at all?

It is unclear from Special:Diff/1106477198 what prompted the 2022 block by Daniel Case, or the determination that this was a trolling/harassment-only account. I haven't found any noticeboard or talk page discussion since the 2009 discussion of the creation of redirects at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive579#Redirects for every street in Manhattan. I haven't found a single talk page contribution from this account in 13 years, so it is perplexing what the trolling/harassment was. And the block log entry is no help.

Uncle G (talk) 02:33, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

• Looks like it was in response to this AIV report, which just expressed concerns about the redirects. I'd be curious to hear how people reached the conclusion that this was a vandalism-only account/troll: at a glance most of the redirects appear to be pretty clearly in good faith, whatever one might think of their usefulness. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I RfD'd a few of JBIGW's creations, and wasn't surprised to see them blocked eventually. (I'm not dismissing Uncle G's concerns about the procedure of the block, but in either case that level of WP:COMMUNICATE was going to lead to a block sooner or later.) My perception of JBIGW's redirects in general, though, is similar to Folly Mox': Most probably weren't worth creating, but at the same time don't need to be deleted. Before we go too far talking about a CSD X3 or whatever, could someone put together a list of, I dunno, 20 redirects they think would almost certainly fail RfD, and say how many redirs they had to go through to compile that list? Right now it's hard to get a feel for the shape of the problem, and if it is such a massive issue, this shouldn't be too hard to put together. -- Tamzin (they|xe|she) 04:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

• It is more that Taking Out The Trash said above that JailBrokenIPODGoneWild was blocked for harassment and J947 commenting that this was unrelated and could result in unwarranted scrutiny. But from what Extraordinary Writ has turned up the block log entry is misleading, the block was actually directly about the redirects, and they were characterized by Sir Joseph as vandalism.

  That report was made on 2022-08-24; the most recently deleted redirects, created on 2022-08-20, were the ones from Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 18#MBTA Silver Line line redirects; and the most recently not-deleted redirects were the likes of Postal code (United States) and List of Internet top-level domains (country) which may be useless, but which as Extraordinary Writ says do not really say vandalism-only account let alone trolling/harrassment.

  They also contain KOP, Pennsylvania and 84, PA created that day which seem unlikely but conceivable search terms that are fairly obviously in line with the target articles's contents. And from the previous month Geography of State College, Pennsylvania and its ilk seem uncontroversial and Government of Veracruz actually got used by someone else in an article.

  So I think that you are right, and both a case for vandalism and a case for "Holy crap. 12,000 redirects" need to be made with examples.

  Uncle G (talk) 10:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

  For the record, I think Postal code (United States) is a great redirect. How am I supposed to remember what they call their postal codes? Zippers? Something like that. Cremastra (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

  In this case, the best solution is to have Postal codes have a list of links to individual countries' pages where they exist (possibly as a navigation box); I believe that parantheticals generally make unneeded redirects, except where either there is the potential for a future article, or where an ENGVAR-alternate article with the parenthetical already exists (e.g Orange (color)). Animal lover |666| 08:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  I'm generally lenient on redirects – my criterion is, is this potentially useful to a reader?, as they are after all WP:CHEAP and generally harmless (they are usually a small net-positive, even if they seem unusual), but we should probably leave theses specifics to later. (And I'm aware I'm probably not wholly within policy with my views). 🎄Cremastra 🎄 (talk) 13:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

(Undid automatic archival) So what exactly should be done here? I haven't had the chance to comb through all 12,000+ redirects, but I can tell you that the ones like "Dark Red Line", "Dark Green Line", "Light Green Line" etc when referring to transit lines are implausible, since nobody talks like that. The problem is that there are simply too many of these alone to send them all to RFD. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 19:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@Taking Out The Trash: I don't see a problem with them. Take, for example, Light Green Line (Shanghai). The target notes that the line is displayed as "light green" on the system maps (Green Line (Shanghai Metro) correctly redirects to Line 12), and there's no ambiguity. It is 100% plausible to call it the "light green line" because that's what it is. 🎄Cremastra 🎄 (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

We're not quite in Miniscule boobies territory, but the similar situation with Neelix in 2015 is what WP:X1 was created for. With consensus we could just reactivate it, add this user's name to the criterion, and let it be handled naturally until no longer needed. The Wordsmith 22:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Appeal of the removal of EC membership for User:DMH43

I (@User:DMH43) recently obtained EC membership. Since then, I have made several edits to ARBPIA pages (see https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/DMH43). Today, I had my EC membership revoked by User:ScottishFinnishRadish, see https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:DMH43#Extended-confirmed_revoked. Quoting this user's message:

you rushed to 500 total edits and then immediately switched entirely to editing ARBPIA topics exclusively. That is a clear case of WP:GAMING just to regain access to ARBPIA.

I argue that my edits were not a case of gaming based on the rules described. The Gaming page describes restrictions as being preventative rather than punitive. I would consider the removal of my permission as punitive since no one has brought an issue with the contents of my edits (which I don't think have been controversial in any sense). The Gaming page does describe a case of gaming to gain EC access:

An editor makes many unconstructive edits in a sandbox to become extended confirmed, and then makes controversial changes to extended confirmed protected articles.

This is very different from my case. The example described is a clear manipulation whereas my edits have been valuable phrasing, formatting, citation and content improvements.

User:ScottishFinnishRadish also suggests I edit strictly non-ARBPIA pages for a few months. But this is not mentioned anywhere in the rules. This suggests that the action taken against me is punitive.

User:ScottishFinnishRadish also linked two recent cases (https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1144#User:President_Loki and https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1144#500/30_gaming_for_ARBPIA_editing) of users Gaming to gain EC access. Both cases are very different from mine. Specifically, the user mentioned in the first link has ~296 edits wikilinking "genus". The user mentioned in the second link has a HUGE number of very tiny, arguably useless edits. In contrast my edits are arguably much more substantial, very few are under 20 characters changed.

Based on the above, I think the action taken against me is unjustified (and strictly punitive, not preventative) by the rules and I should have EC membership restored. DMH43 (talk) 17:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

1) This account was open on 15 November.

2) The first actual edit was on 1 December - just over 3 weeks ago.

3) The first 100+ edits were in ARBPIA, in violation of 30/500. The user continued to edit in ARBPIA after being warned by me and other users, and stopped doing so only after I opened a complaint in AE.

4) After the complaint, the user started editing in other topics, many of the edits not very substantial.

5) As soon as the user got to 500 total edits, including many violation edits because they had edited in ARBPIA, they again started editing exclusively in ARBPIA, adding much POV material.

Seems like a clear case of WP:GAMING. Dovidroth (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Everyone can feel free to check that discussion which has now been archived without action. And they can check that I messaged you to notify that I would undo your reverts. None of my edits were controversial or malicious. None of my edits have been challenged as POV. DMH43 (talk) 17:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

How can the first 100+ edits be in ARBPIA where EC is the standard? Buffs (talk) 21:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I've also notified Dovidroth of this thread since they seem to have been quite invested in reverting you.

As for my opinion on the merits of the request, I'm not convinced that this was really gaming the system. Did the user rush to 500? Sure, but the edits, in my opinion, seem to be at least fairly reasonable on the surface. I'm also not really convinced the standard generally established in other cases like this was met here. I don't think ScottishFinnishRadish was wrong here, but I also don't think the revocation of extended confirmed was particularly necessary, and I don't see a reason that it shouldn't be returned to them. The links ScottishFinnishRadish gave to the editor on their talk page as examples of gaming don't seem very egregious, and it seems like the editor, while maybe a bit inexperienced, does still know what they're doing, and the page they made in ARBPIA is still up. Based on this, I would support returning extended confirmed to the editor. If they're really becoming that problematic in ARBPIA even with extended confirmed, blocks still exist, and so does a friendly talk page discussion. EggRoll97 17:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I would say that immediately reverting one editor a half-dozen times as one of their first actions after gaining autoconfirmed demonstrate problematic ARBPIA editing already, and also demonstrate the problem with gaming extended-confirmed with minor copyedits with the goal of returning to ARBPIA. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Those reverts were undos of reverts performed because I didn't have EC. No issue with the content was raised at the time. And I notified said user. DMH43 (talk) 18:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I would argue my reverts are the most benign edits I could have made, since no issue was raised regarding the content when i originally made these edits. DMH43 (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, I didnt go on a reverting spree of a specific user. DMH43 (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The fact that this user is calling POV-filled edits “benign” shows a lack of sensitivity to ARBPIA and that they are not ready to edit in this area. Dovidroth (talk) 02:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Those arent POV-filled edits, and if you had a case for removing them except for them being made by a non-ECP editor you could offer that. You dont though. nableezy - 14:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree with nableezy above. You could have explained that instead of just spamming "reverting editor not 30/500". You could have put a detailed edit summary in there, for what you actually thought was wrong with the edits. The editor was trying to contribute in good faith, which frankly it's a shame we don't just IAR these early ARBPIA edits and actually put a descriptive edit summary instead of spamming the same non-descript "user not allowed in here" garbage. Getting new editors acquainted is a problem, and this is part of it. EggRoll97 14:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I disagreed with the edits, but there was no need to state that as you were non-EC and not allowed to edit in those articles in the first place. And I did not receive any notification that you were reverting me. Where do you think you have notified me? Dovidroth (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I had tagged you on the talk pages. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Scars%20of%20War,%20Wounds%20of%20Peace?title=Scars_of_War,_Wounds_of_Peace&diff=prev&oldid=1191425028 DMH43 (talk) 19:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

As a matter of procedure, @Dovidroth: I'm pretty sure your reversions on Scars of War, Wounds of Peace above are actually a violation of ARBPIA4, remedy 6, stating in part, All primary articles will be subject to the ARBPIA General Sanctions. {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} should be added to the talk page of affected pages, and {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice}} should be added as an editnotice to affected pages. The presence of the templates is required before the General Sanctions can be enforced on primary articles. As that particular article is part of the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted ("primary articles"), ARBPIA restrictions shouldn't apply unless the editnotice and talk page template have been applied. Regardless, it seems the editor wasn't actually prohibited by 500/30 from making those edits. POV is a different issue, but that can be hashed out separately. EggRoll97 19:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

EggRoll97, while there are separate additional requirements for sanctioning editors for restriction violations, there is no such requirement for the extended-confirmed restriction to exist and apply in the entire topic area. Special:Diff/1188566854 is a fine revert and Special:Diff/1187991384 (2023-12-02), from an account created 2023-11-15, is a clear violation of the extended-confirmed restriction independently of the edit count. This doesn't mean that DMH43 has to be blamed for not knowing about it; it just means that your procedural concern is invalid. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

You used the automatic edit summary that says that you are reverting me. That is not exactly informing me. Either way, your cannot assume if I reverted you saying that you are a non-EC editor that I otherwise agree with your edits. Dovidroth (talk) 02:59, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

"Rushing to 500" is GAMING, and the policy at WP:PGAME should be updated to reflect modern understanding. This isn't the clearest cut obvious case of gaming ever, but yes if the first 100 edits, three weeks ago, are in violation of ECP, then someone putters around for awhile making edits like this and this and this (all trivial) and these (non-trivial, editor's most-edited article outside ARBIPA space, may be a genuine improvement, lots of references removed), and then immediately abandons the prior topic area to leap back into EC with seven reverts of the same editor and then publishes this (removing balance from Wikivoice, refbombing POV statement including a citation "by" |last=Nast |first=Condé with the balance unformatted, adding contentious material with a built-in {{cn}} tag at time of edit, then reinforcing the POV with an added paragraph at the end of the subsection): this demonstrates both intent to game, and unreadiness for constructive editing in ECP topics. Folly Mox (talk) 04:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

The first and third edit are also nontrivial from a conceptual standpoint, which i am happy to explain.

I also don't consider what I've done as abandoning. I am excited to edit pages which I havent had a chance to edit yet, which is why I am engaging more with ARBIPA content recently. DMH43 (talk) 04:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

"Trivial" was not the most appropriate description of your edits in the statistics and mathematics space. Your contributions were definitely better than the type that (for example) changes a single punctuation mark or adds a single wikilink. For what it's worth, I do sympathise with your position, and having looked more fully into your post-EC edits in ARBIPA, I definitely picked the most problematic one to link to (it was chosen arbitrarily).What I was trying to convey was that your editing while waiting for EC wasn't the kind that engaged with any policies that will be necessary to understand for editing non-disruptively in contentious topic areas. I do see you've engaged appropriately at Talk:Oslo Accords, and your ARBIPA edits like this and this seem unproblematic. But both this edit and the one already linked above show that you haven't learned yet how to correct problems with your citations, which is going to be important in a contentious area; this edit and this edit display a propensity for placing quotes that align with your POV in eye-catching blockquote templates in prominent locations, the bit about removing balance to put your POV in Wikivoice I mentioned above, and the removal of all the references that didn't align with your vision for Statistical hypothesis testing concerns me.Reverting the same editor on seven articles as soon as you were technically able to does give the impression of an antagonistic perspective. It's fine to disagree completely with someone else, but hopping straight to reversion instead of attempting to reach a compromise is how articles get disrupted. Reversion should feel icky, not triumphal. The goal is always productive collaboration, not our own preferred prose.One major problem with ECP is that it's a purely numeric threshold standing in for what would ideally be a qualitative test of applicable competencies. The assumption behind the idea is that if someone has been editing for a month and made five hundred edits, they'll be sufficiently familiar with the rules for constructive collaborative editing, and sufficiently invested in encyclopaedic improvement, that they should be able to edit whatever articles call their interest. But if someone spends that month (not even, in this case) and those 500 edits making small edits in a space where they're not even interacting with other editors and then leaps directly into the most contentious topic on the project, the process hasn't worked.I'd like to see an understanding of WP:NPOV, an approach of attempted compromise before resorting to reversion, and closer attention paid to citations. I'm not an admin and I don't usually edit content in contentious topics, so my opinion here shouldn't be taken too seriously, but I wouldn't oppose restoring EC after a brief period demonstrating collaborative editing in a non-ECP CTOP, or even just a personal reflection accurately describing the problems with the edits made before the permission was revoked. Also, WP:PGAME should be updated. When policy lags behind practice, it confuses people. Folly Mox (talk) 14:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I characteristically forgot: please don't add unsourced prose with a {{cn}} attached at time of edit. Even if done for the best of reasons it can lead to undesirable results.Noting also for the crew that (per Zero0000 and nableezy) my understanding of PGAME as practiced may be in the minority, on the "overly strict" side. Folly Mox (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Ive brought up several GAMING violations in the past, they were all for doing mindless edits repeatedly with a clear intention to get to the restricted topic. But doing mindful edits with that same intention has never been treated as GAMING before, even when the intent to return to a CTOPIC is plainly evident. This editor, from everything Ive seen of their edits, will be a positive to our goals as an encyclopedia. There were editors previously who very plainly edit from the polar opposite of the POV spectrum that I encouraged to stick around because I also saw their edits would be a positive as an encyclopedia. Eg here. I think it would be healthy if we saw more of that instead of editors attempting to use procedural roadblocks to stop what is plainly a good faith and productive editor who is trying to follow the rules. I dont mean you to be clear, but it seems pretty plain to see that is motivating some of the comments here. nableezy - 22:08, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

The points you brought up are:

• I didn't edit pages which allowed me to engage with other users
• I started editing ARBIPA pages when I was given access
• I have shown some issues formatting citations and possibly other content
• I haven't made edits outside ARBIPA that clearly show an understanding of WP:NPOV.
• I reverted a user's edits who had reverted me for no reason other than I was new and did not have EC permission.

But none of this is close to breaking any rules, as far as I know. I followed the rules in good faith which is clear from my edit history. If the rules aren't sufficient and the "process hasn't worked" isn't that a call to update the guidelines rather than to punish me as a new user?

In response to your other comment, thank you for pointing out that I shouldnt use cn expecting someone else with find a citation. DMH43 (talk) 14:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I think this thread provides adequate guidance, and I'm feeling convinced by nableezy above that the string of reverts were reverts of technical reverts of DMH43's own edits (which I didn't realise at first). Levivich makes good points below, as does Zero0000 in their response to my question.Emotionally I feel bad for taking a stance which I wrongly assumed to be consensus, but turns out to be stricter. That's not the person I want to be. I note also DMH43 engaging productively again in non-ECP space. Switching to Support restoring EC at 30 days since first edit (i.e. 01 January) per Black Kite somewhere in this thread; wouldn't oppose restoring earlier. Folly Mox (talk) 21:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse SFR's action, close AN thread appeal, user should receive a warning. The user does not understand what they did wrong. They should read Gaming the system and Righting great wrongs, and receive a warning. Andre🚐 05:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Can you be more specific? DMH43 (talk) 06:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  If this is a case of gaming, someone should be able to show me a case of another user who made similar edits and also had their EC membership revoked. So far, I have only been shown users with a history of very clear bad faith edits. DMH43 (talk) 14:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  That is not a reasonable request as there is no way to either contact every Admin who has removed ECP or search every instance. And it shows to me at least you aren’t listening or not understanding what you are being told. Doug Weller talk 21:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, this is bordering on WP:NOTHERE Andre🚐 22:17, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  That is highly uncivil, the editor is clearly here to build an encyclopedia and even the briefest perusal of their edits would demonstrate that. nableezy - 22:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Read NOTHERE, it talks about gaming and attitude conflicts similar to what we see here. Andre🚐 22:21, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  There isnt any gaming. Constructive editing is not gaming. nableezy - 22:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  There's a clear consensus here of users and admins saying that racing to 500 to revert the same user 7 times along ideological lines is obvious gaming. Let's not go back and forth. You disagree, but there's a consensus here against you. Andre🚐 22:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Dont think any of that is true at all. And I expect if people look at it a bit more deeply they will see it is not true. But no, I dont think your description of this is accurate either. nableezy - 22:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't believe that they're NOTHERE, I just believe that they rushed edits as quickly as they could to meet EC by the letter of the rules and immediately dive in to conflict, gaming the system so they could revert to their preferred version. That shows a critical lack of understanding of how Misplaced Pages, and CTOPs in particular, work. If I had seen any editor in the topic area go around to half a dozen articles reverting the same editor I would have taken some action. With the circumstances in this particular situation I figured removing ec was a reasonably light touch. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don’t think that’s really what happened, they were restoring their own edits. Not simply reverting another editor. If they had been following Dovidroth around then sure that’s its own issue, but they returned to articles they had previously edited and had their edits removed for reasons that no longer applied. I don’t think that’s even remotely gaming or evidence of any bad faith at all, those edits were all fine and were only removed for EC reasons. When he was EC then it made sense to return them. nableezy - 23:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Proposal: issue warning, endorse permission removal, restore permission at 30 days after first edit and 500 main space edits, notwithstanding any findings of misconduct, which should be treated separately. DMH43's account will be 30 days old on 30 December, and has made 490 main space edits. I agree that gaming against the spirit of 30/500 has clearly occurred, but the edits seem to be themselves in good faith, even if they are trivial or minor. Their request to restore permission has also provided greater scrutiny on their editing. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I also note that this is not the designated process for requesting restoring permissions, but we might as well determine this here; the relevant editor brought this here and we are not a bureaucracy. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Since this was a logged AE action, I told them they could appeal here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:02, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Deny appeal and use the standard process for restoring in the future. No need for other sanctions. It is a bit of gaming, but they are also a new user (we assume). I would imagine that ScottishFinnishRadish would be willing to restore after a short period of worthwhile contributions. SFR was within their authority to issue the sanction and I see it as a reasonable admin action, but the actions that led to the sanction weren't the most egregious case of gaming, so I have faith a balanced approach will be taken when reinstating EC. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Deny appeal per Folly Mox and Dennis Brown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 08:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• I don't get it. It is true DMH43 did many early edits contrary to ARBECR. No argument there. But I wonder when editing exclusively in ARBPIA after becoming EC became a crime. Many editors edit exclusively or almost exclusively in ARBPIA. I also don't see the "gaming" claim. I've seen lots of gaming of the 500/30 rule and they didn't look like this. Most the edits are substantial, including some of those described above as trivial (such as this and this which correct actual errors; as a mathematician I am qualified to say that). Specifically, I contend that on looking at DMH43's first 500 edits (your prefs might determine how many display at once) they don't look out of the ordinary. They do not consist mainly or even largely of trivial edits. And it took 20 days to reach 500, which is not a particularly fast rate of editing. Zero 13:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  "Trivial" was an inapt descriptor. Pretty much everything in that paragraph was inapt to a degree, particularly the structure, and also on reread using "balance" in two different meanings a few words apart. I've attempted to explain myself a bit better above in the cold light of day. Zero0000, are you able to comment on the filer's rewrite here, and whether there's anything concerning about it? Folly Mox (talk) 14:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  @Folly Mox: your question is one that belongs on the article talk page, as there are no obvious behavioral problems. As far as this case is concerned, note that making a lot of changes to an article in a single edit is exactly the opposite of what people do who are making rapid trivial edits to get EC. Zero 01:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Restore after 100 more edits - I dont see any GAMING at all, there were ECP violations, not gaming ones, earlier. Those edits shouldnt count towards the 500 to become extended confirmed, but this is not gaming, those are constructive edits that took time, not mindless adding whitespace or changing and reverting their own change, or making slight modifications to categories or templates. But the claim of gaming appears to have little to no substantiation, I see no "rushing" to 500, and I think it pretty normal for an editor to revert edits that were made for a reason that no longer applies. Hell, when Dovidroth was unblocked as a sockpuppet he restored his edits that had been reverted for BANREVERT. And why wouldnt he? The cause for the removal wasnt valid, so he was entitled to restore them. nableezy - 14:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• In the middle of this appeal, this user complained about me on another user's talk page. This continues into a possible WP:Battleground behavior. Dovidroth (talk) 16:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  The battleground page describes behavior which disrupts Misplaced Pages. Nowhere in my post do I suggest any disruptive behavior, rather I point out a few cases that seem to me to be bad faith edits. This post of yours suggests you are taking my edits personally, whereas none of my posts have been personal in nature; they are all content based. DMH43 (talk) 17:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Posting a complaint about a user on another user (not an admin)’s talk page is inappropriate and borderline WP:battleground. And on what basis do you claim my edits are bad faith? Seems like an ordinary edit dispute. Dovidroth (talk) 17:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  You haven't engaged with the content of any of my edits, just reverting them despite some of them were correcting obvious factual errors (such as misattributed quotes). DMH43 (talk) 17:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I am glad to engage with EC users. I am allowed to revert anything in ARBPIA from a non-EC user that I disagree with without providing further explanation. “Anyone is free to revertany edits made in violation of a ban or block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule.” WP:Banrevert. A non-EC user in ARBPIA is effectively the same thing as a ban. Dovidroth (talk) 17:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  Any reasonable third party would consider your reverts as irresponsible and borderline harassment of a new editor. DMH43 (talk) 19:10, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I showed you in the policy that what I did is legitimate. Falsely accusing me of acting irresponsible and abusive because you don’t like it will not get you anywhere. I hope the admins reviewing this case will see that this user is interested in pushing his POV without following the rules and that they should not be allowed to edit in ARBPIA. Dovidroth (talk) 19:14, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  That accusation of harassment is incivil. Propose that DMH43 should be warned for incivility Andre🚐 22:12, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I'd say it's spot on, actually. I'd instead propose that Dovidroth be warned for violating WP:BITE. EggRoll97 23:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  "I am allowed to revert anything in ARBPIA from a non-EC user that I disagree with without providing further explanation." Are you saying that you wouldn't revert a contribution from a non-ECP editor that you did agree with? Black Kite (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  WP:Banrevert states that “This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor (changes that are obviously helpful, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert.” There have been cases that I have decided to leave something, but obviously if another EC editor reverts them, I will respect that. Dovidroth (talk) 05:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Frankly, the most troubling behavior in this thread is being displayed by Andrevan (for misstating the degree of consensus in an apparent attempt to shut down the discussion, as well as the hyperbolic, bolded demand for a warning above in response to a comment that is well within the norms of discussion on AN if not necessarily wise), and to a lesser extent Dovidroth (a new editor asking on a 3rd party's talk page for advice on how to respond to what they perceive to be harassment is completely reasonable behavior, and in general if Dovidroth had followed correct protocol and started with {{alert/first}} like we're supposed to there's a decent chance that this discussion wouldn't be happening at all right now). _signed, Rosguill 22:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  I didn't say the consensus is that the thread should be shut down, but that gaming is gaming. You can disagree. I stand by the statement that the accusation of harassment is inappropriate and I still feel the user should be warned; nothing hyperbolic about a warning, nor does bolding indicate anything, it is standard to bold opinions in discussions. I was not aware the user was not alerted, however, which is unrelated. Andre🚐 22:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse removal, but I would look favourably on restoring the permission when the user has made 500 non-ARBPIA edits (and has reached 30 days, of course). Obviously, if they then behave disruptively in a CTOP area after that, then that's a separate issue. Black Kite (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Keep removed, but restore after 500 mainspace non ARBPIA edits, and take further issues (if any) to arb enforcement.VR _talk 23:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support appeal/restore EC now - I don't understand how anyone looks at this editor's mainspace edits and sees them as trivial or gaming or anything other than normal editing: adding sourced content, removing unsourced content, fixing/adjusting content. The edits aren't perfect but they're normal edits.More broadly, as someone who strongly supports ECR (and its expansion), I don't understand why some editors refer to a pattern of editing in non-ARBPIA edits until EC, and then editing ARBPIA once EC, as "leaping" or "jumping" into ARBPIA or "abandoning" the other topic area. I don't get how other editors don't get that editing in non-ARBPIA areas before EC and then editing ARBPIA after EC is exactly what we want editors to do, and the whole point of ECR. We want new editors in ARBPIA, and we want editors to get experience elsewhere before editing ARBPIA. This is exactly what this editor has done (thank you for your volunteer work, sorry for this unpleasant experience). (This is also exactly what I did when I first got here in 2018. Nobody took away my EC. I don't see any meaningful difference between this editors first 500 edits and my own first 500 edits. And if someone had yanked my EC, Misplaced Pages would probably have lost my next 25,000 edits over the next five years. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by driving away new volunteers.)Folks, whenever there is a major world event, new editors will show up wanting to edit topics about that event. When the event is in ARBPIA, as here, you can expect to see editors editing non-ARBPIA topics and then editing ARBPIA topics after EC. There is nothing wrong with this. This editor's mainspace edits show me they have enough experience and understanding of policies to edit in the ARBPIA topic area. Their edits aren't all perfect, but neither are mine or any other EC editor's."Gaming" is when someone makes 250 edits adding a period and then 250 edits removing a period and then edits ARBPIA. This is plainly not what this editor did.If someone reverts an editor's edits because they're not EC that's allowed per ECR, but we shouldn't be surprised when the editor reinstates their edits after hitting EC. Again, this is what we want: new editors volunteering to edit this topic area. Levivich (talk) 18:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Many of the 500 edits are very minor and trivial, and were made very rapidly. The first edits also began two weeks after the account was created. This is why I see this as gaming, but it's not particularly egregious. Giving this editor EC permission does not jeopardise Misplaced Pages. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Here are DMH's first 50 edits -- none of them are very minor or trivial AFAICS. You can tell just by looking at the size of the edits that they're not trivial. The most trivial edit in the bunch is one edit that adds a wikilink, and that's not trivial. Here are their next 50 edits -- I see one edit that adds a period, the rest are plainly not trivial (I can't see the revdel'd ones). So that's 99 non-trivial edits out of their first 100. I haven't looked at all 500, but here are their first 500 and again, just by looking at the sizes of the edits, we can see that the vast majority, like almost all of them, are non-trivial. It makes me wonder what other editors consider "trivial"? Levivich (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  I saw various edits which were adding or removing a word that had little to no effect on the meaning of the sentence, when I was looking at the later edits. However, this is too trivial to necessitate any sanctions or permission removals. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• I returned here to write more but I see that Levivich has written more or less exactly what I wanted to write, so I'll just say that I agree completely. Zero 03:53, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
• Restore now per Levivich. Curiously, some participants in this thread are now topic banned from ARBPIA by SFR. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 12:04, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
• After reflecting on the discussion here I think Black Kite's proposal is a good way to split this particular nickel. If I weren't a meathead I would have made that the restoration criteria when I removed the permission. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:10, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
• Procedurally restore permissions. Levivich makes excellent points above. Likewise, the idea that fulfilling bright line requirements (50/300) is somehow indicative that they are attempting to game the system is absurd. Blocking someone from "the club" based on the fact that they met the rules "too quickly" is ridiculous. We have the 30 day requirement and 500 edits for a reason. It's not like he added a space 250 times and deleted a space 250 times to achieve that. He was making substantive contributions. Now, the quality of those edits and other issues notwithstanding, EC should be restored forthwith. Any additional issues should be addressed in a different thread (the user seems remarkably versed in WP terminology for a noob). Buffs (talk) 21:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments and followups. I believe SFR has come to a decision about my EC status (see my talk page). My question for the group is: is there any kind of behavior not described in the rules that I should avoid? For example some have mentioned that I should spend a few months editing non ARBIPA topics for a while; should I head this advice? Should I make sure to have a daily mix of EC and non-EC edits? It seems my focus on EC specific pages raised a flag for users and I would like to avoid that. I'm open to suggestions and advice. Thank you DMH43 (talk) 22:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

And as for the reverts that Dovidroth has done from most of my edits, when can I undo them? Should I open discussions on the associated talk pages for these changes? DMH43 (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

For the reverts, I suggest a talk page message and give it a couple days to see if there are any objections. You don't need to have a mix of edits, but it's good to get experience in not one of the worst areas to edit, and the same goes for editing in other topics before diving in. That's my take, other views will likely vary. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse SFR's action, with consideration of restoring after user has shown a pattern of productive editing and an understand of what brought this about, using the normal appeal process. I generally agree with Dennis Brown's comment. SFR has shown abundant evidence to support their action.  // Timothy :: talk  22:06, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Welcome user

Can you please take a look at the username Sniggering (talk · contribs). I tried to welcome the user after the user themselves made anti vandalism efforts. It is currently a problem because the page is protected that only Adkins, template editors and page movers can create it, and suggested to come here or at WP:RFPP/E. Please take action as needed, maybe advise the user to change their username because non Admins, template editors or page movers can't initiate their talk page. Thank you. Toadette 12:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I’ve welcomed them, that doesn’t seem like a new user to me. Seawolf35 14:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, their username is currently against the title blacklist, but they were created on the 22nd of this month. Not sure how their account creation didn't get blocked by the TB. EggRoll97 14:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

According to Merriam-Webster the word "snigger" goes back to 1706 in its current meaning of scornful laughter. It has no racial connotations and is often used in reliable sources. The "n-word" did not become a slur until decades later. Personally, I think this username is a bad idea, but I am not convinced that it is a policy violation. Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Scunthorpe problem. You're right, it's a common word that just happens to contain the letters of a racial slur in it. So that could be causing some filter issues. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Could the word "snigger" be added to MediaWiki:Titlewhitelist? Animal lover |666| 19:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Off topic to the ability to welcome this user: the name was automatically flagged at WP:UAA but I declined the notification for the reason given by Cullen328. It's not uncommon for legitimate usernames to contain strings that would be offensive if separated from the whole, and a review of their edits is then required to determine the context. Also agree with Cullen328 that I personally think this username is a bad idea because "scornful laughter" isn't an ideal editing approach. But overall, while this was a legitimate name to be flagged for attention it wasn't one that warranted an immediate UAA block. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The user has now renamed themselves to Snices (talk · contribs). Mz7 (talk) 07:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Create N-word redirect pls

From bibliography of the slave trade in the United States, link from Nigger Trader White (original language used in primary source article) redirect to John R. White#Negro-Trader White. Please and thank you and also I'm sorry. jengod (talk) 03:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

•  Done Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Appreciate it. I hope you have a wonderful week. Best, jengod (talk) jengod (talk) 08:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Wouldn't it be better if whatever filter this is allowed creations by ECP users? Mach61 (talk) 01:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  This is from Mediawiki:Titleblacklist, not a WP:EF. There's an option to allow autoconfirmed editors, but I'm not sure if allowing EC editors is possible. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  Given that any template editor, page mover, or sysop can bypass the title blacklist when needed, I don't see much reason to move down the prohibition on the title blacklist. Probably best to keep this as a fully-blacklisted part of the TB. EggRoll97 02:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. The harm of blacklisting these titles (a small number of legitimate requests to create pages or redirects, although no automatic restrictions on editing them once created) is probably minimal; the risk of removing it from the blacklist (anyone, including sockpuppeteers, as long as their IP address isn't blocked, can create an account and create such pages 10 edits and 4 days later) is much greater. Animal lover |666| 17:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Any Wiktionary admins out there?

One of our LTAs has decided to vandalize there. Check out the entry on "subglacial", but be prepared. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Solo curated list of sites to slander

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• List of fake news websites (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

First of all, most of the links, are not listed under original sources, which suggest insider information or an insider posting.

Generative AI portion is not literally fake as per the original introductory definition which feeds the theory of a vendetta from the one user.

Nearly the entire article is written by one user further suggests a strong bias.

Lastly, the idea that Misplaced Pages will take a stand of what it determines to be fake news sites is a slippery slope and easily weaponized 65.222.189.194 (talk) 02:53, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Have you considered bringing this up at the article's talk page? Beach drifter (talk) 03:00, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

It was deleted from their 65.222.189.194 (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

It was deleted from their page. 65.222.189.194 (talk) 03:03, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Please can you explain what was deleted from which page? I have had a quick look at Talk:List of fake news websites and, apart from the automated archiving of idle discussion threads, the only things I see being removed from there recently were blatant attempts at trolling. DanielRigal (talk) 13:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

My concern is it almost feels like Misplaced Pages is taking a responsibility way beyond its purview.

I support a white list (which we have) but a black list feels a bit much. 38.127.143.248 (talk) 15:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

What? Seriously, I don't know what you're arguing here. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:22, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Any COI experts in the house?

I've come across an article, Antoine Schneck that I tagged as COI. It seems a major contributor that has been maintaining the page, and the French language version, is actually the artist's partner. And now they've come to the talk page to ask why it's different to them paying a third party to write and and asking for the COI tag to be removed because the artist can no longer use the Misplaced Pages page in their personal advertising due to it. It seems pretty clear the page is being maintained for the sole purpose of advertising for the artist subject with massive COI involvement. Any advice? Canterbury Tail talk 13:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Just a first tought: does he really pass WP:ARTIST, and do we have sources for it? If there are doubts, an AfD might be the way forward....if it gets deleted so be it. If not: the AfD is a chance to get more eyes on it. The article in FR-Misplaced Pages is virtually the same as the one here, btw., but has survived an AfD discussion over there (although the sources used were considered "light"). Lectonar (talk) 13:43, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:COIN might be a good noticeboard for this in the future. The article doesn't look too bad to me. I just made an edit to remove a word of promo (the word "leading" in "a cameraman for a leading French TV channel"). I don't really see any additional promo in the article. It now has the correct factual tone. Now its major problem is that it is a BLP that is lacking citations for some of the early career sentences. Overall this looks like a fairly normal article for a visual artist. It is common for these articles to list their works and exhibitions. It may seem counter-intuitive, but once the article's issues are cleaned up, the COI tag should be removed. The COI tag is only for if the article has demonstrable, articulatable issues that are a direct result of COI editing. At this point I'd suggest tagging the article as {{Orphan}} and {{BLP sources}}, and removing the other tags, including {{COI}}. The authority control template with 6 entries hints that this person passes WP:NARTIST, but would take an AFD to find out for sure. Hope this helps! –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Page move revert needed

Lebanese Forces (Lebanese Resistance) needs to be moved back to Lebanese Forces (Christian militia). This isn't a report but the move was undiscussed doesn't appear neutral. Please let me know if there is a more suitable venue at which I can request such a revert. Thanks, Nythar (💬-🍀) 22:08, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nythar  Done per WP:RMUM, please use WP:RMTR in the future. --Trialpears (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

IRC Ban Apppeal

Hello, I originally posted this on my talkpage with the Unblock template, but was advised the template was for unblocks only and was suggested to post this here.

I will post my post again here (I just made a minor grammar change here)

The post:

)Hello. Years ago, I was making too many bad requests on the EN Misplaced Pages Revdel Channel (I don't remember the specific year as it has been around 4.5ish (?) years since it happened. Basically, my requests fell nowhere within the stipulated criterion for the request to be considered, and I was disrupting the channel more than I was making valid requests, so for that reason I was banned from that channel (I was a lot younger when that took place (I am a lot older and mature now (But for privacy, can't state my actual age here). Since then, I have learned what REVDEl is, what qualifies for it (hard to list examples here as its' not really possible) and when and when not to request it. I have learned from the ban/block, and I fully take responsibility for my actions in the past. If it is possible, I am requesting if I can be unbanned. Thank you for your time.

Thanks.

--つがる Talk to つがる:) 🍁 02:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you recall your username on IRC? Do you know who banned you? – bradv 02:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Bradv I don't remember my IRC username. As for who did the ban, I can't remember. I do remember at all correctely Mz7 (?) left me a message about the ban, but I don't think he was the one who did the ban. Its been too long and I can't remember, But I haven't went in the IRC channel for REVDEL ever since I was banned つがる Talk to つがる:) 🍁 02:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If you don't remember, chances are no one else does either. So if you have a need for revdel or oversight help, the #wikipedia-en-revdel channel is available to you. (Please note that we have moved from Freenode to Libera.chat, so you will need to reconfigure your client.) – bradv 02:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@つがる: I do remember you. Your username at the time was "Thegooduser", and I do remember that we banned you from -revdel many years ago. That was back when Wikimedia projects still used Freenode as their IRC network; nowadays, we use Libera Chat, and it appears that the ban on Freenode never got carried over to Libera. I think it is safe to say that you are effectively unbanned and are welcome to join -revdel again if you need to request revision deletion. Mz7 (talk) 06:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I find it a bit odd that you don't know your IRC username. That is needed both to login and to issue the unban command. Anyway, have you tried visiting the channel recently to confirm that you are still actually banned? –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

RFC closure review request - Enrique Tarrio

• Enrique Tarrio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• RFC
• Follow-up discussion with closer
• Diff of closure
• Notification to closer

Discussion focused on whether the infobox image should be of the subject posed in a suit or a candid at a rally. By vote count, opinions were split close to equally, but the main rationale against the "suit" image was not founded in policy and this was not addressed in the closure statement. The closer also closed the RFC as "No Consensus" but has since clarified that they interpret that to mean "Consensus against both options" and used that result to justify negating the previous consensus for the suit image, which has been the lead image in the article since mid 2021. I believe both the closure and the follow-up interpretation merit review. VQuakr (talk) 04:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Endorse the no consensus closure, and interpret as reverting to the consensus of the previous RFC, meaning the suit image should still be used. EggRoll97 05:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I do want to clarify that while there was a discussion that resulted in unanimity amongst the five participants, there was not a previous RFC to my knowledge. VQuakr (talk) 06:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The RFC clearly established that there's no consensus to include the very controversial promotional image uploaded by an SPA photographer -- its restoration would likely constitute a behavior issue at the point. Meanwhile the alternative also proved controversial, with multiple editors suggesting no image would be better than either of the candidates. We should keep looking -- lots of people have spoken of the possibility of using a cropped mugshot, that's probably the solution. Feoffer (talk) 06:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• Partial endorse - Looking at the discussion, I find the arguments against the suit image to be the strongest. Fundamentally, images on Misplaced Pages are supposed to be an aid to understanding, and I think those supporting the alternative effectively argued that the suit photo, while, yes, a professional studio shot, does not aid the reader's understanding of the subject (and in fact presents an impression of the subject incongruous with the way we write about him). That said, those supporting A have a good point that B isn't ideal either, but I don't see those arguments as disqualifying as the arguments against the suit photo. We settle for subpar images all the time -- the important thing is that they aid understanding. We're not identifying a bird species such that the best image is always going to be the sharpest, clearest photo depicting a typical specimen; we're determining how best to illustrate an article on an American far-right activist and convicted seditionist, and I think that kind of distinction -- and its relation to our guidelines about what an image is supposed to do -- comes through in the arguments. TL;DR - It does look like there's consensus against the suit image, but I'd just call it "no consensus about a replacement". — Rhododendrites \\ 06:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not sure how much weight should be put into arguments that a professional studio photo doesn't aid the reader's understanding of the subject. As a practical matter, we seem quite happy to use such photos of politicians, judges, CEOs and heck plenty of other people even when alternatives exist. While I've sometimes seen arguments against this saying they're too promotional, this rarely seems to be accepted so I'm unconvinced there's any community consensus on this, probably the opposite in fact. The only minor difference here is that professional studio photos of others will often photograph them in something akin to their more everyday clothes, which may very well be a suit for a politician. Although even that can be complicated and it's hardly uncommon they dress different generally in a way that comes across as more professional than they do most of the time. I mean for someone in the military they'll often be in their dress uniform even if they're in a role which means they spend most of the time in their regular uniform. (There's also the question of how we should interpret people encountering the subject. For example, for a politician especially a member of a legislature, there might be dress codes requiring them to dress in a certain way. And people might see them on TV or in the legislature dressed in this way. But practically, people might be more likely to actually see them in person at a rally or walkabout or constituency office or whatever where they might dress different.) Nil Einne (talk) 12:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  we seem quite happy to use such photos of politicians, judges, CEOs The only minor difference here is that professional studio photos of others will often photograph them in something akin to their more everyday clothes - That's not a minor difference. A studio shot of a politician looking like a politician makes sense for a lead image. If we had 10 so-so photos of a politician looking like a politician and one of a politician in a baseball uniform even though nothing in the article talks about a baseball, we wouldn't use the latter even if it were a perfect 30 megapixel studio shot because it doesn't aid understanding. Likewise the studio shot here does not aid understanding. It can always be added to the article further down if folks feel like it's important, but the arguments that it shouldn't be the lead photo are IMO persuasive. — Rhododendrites \\ 14:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites: this seems like verging into rehashing the RFC rather than the close, but I do want to clarify that the reason we wouldn't use the image of the politician in the baseball uniform is because it would be confusing, not because it didn't look like the politician. It is an imperfect analogy because anyone can wear a suit, and wearing a suit doesn't cause confusion in the same way that a baseball uniform would. The primary purpose of a lead image in a biography should be to see what the person looks like. Wearing a suit doesn't detract from the purpose of being an identifiable image; face turned to the side and wearing hat and sunglasses does. VQuakr (talk) 18:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  I understand that's your perspective. I'm saying I found the arguments against that perspective to be stronger in the discussion. We're not identifying a species of animal, we're illustrating a subject about a specific person to aid understanding of that person. The color of the subject's eyes, the shape of his pores, etc. do not aid understanding as much as seeing him engaged in the activity he is best known for. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  Ok but getting back to the closure review, "my perspective" is based on PAG. MOS:IMAGEQUALITY specifically calls for a portrait photo in the lead. "the color of the subject's eyes" is a weird way to say "what the subject looks like" but yeah, that is absolutely the main purpose of a lead image. VQuakr (talk) 18:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  "portrait photograph" doesn't mean "with fancy clothes in a studio" -- it means it's a photo taken with intent to depict the subject. Going back to my example, we could have a portrait photograph of a politician in some random non-politiciany outfit and we would still use the photo that makes them look like a politician. That guideline also says For example, a painting of a cupcake may be an acceptable image for Cupcake, but a real cupcake that has been decorated to look like something else entirely is less appropriate. The policy, WP:IUP says The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter. WP:NPOV includes images as a possible WP:WEIGHT issue. There's plenty. It's not the same calculation the subject uses to decide on a profile picture; it's what best aids understanding and accurately depicts the full subject. I feel like I'm repeating myself, though, so I'll leave this be as it waits for additional input. — Rhododendrites \\ 19:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• The closer was right to find no consensus, but wrong to understand that as consensus against both. The correct finding would have been "no consensus, restore the status quo ante".—S Marshall T/C 08:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
• I agree that no consensus seems a fair close of that discussion. However as others have said, the correct outcome of a no consensus here is to keep the previous image until consensus is found for a new alternative. In other words, it's fine to encourage continued discussion, but not to say the previous images can't be used. Nil Einne (talk) 12:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

  I would add that there's no chance in hell that an NFCC image could be used for simple identification of the subject who not only is a living person (albeit currently in prison) but for whom free images do exist. And so any discussion that involves the premise it could is a non-starter. In case there's some confusion, while Misplaced Pages:Non-free content is technically only a guideline, the living person issue actually comes from the foundation's wmf:Wikimedia Licensing Policy so is not even something we can just change by ourselves. I mean if someone really wants to petition the WMF to change the policy, they can try I guess, but until that happens we should just ignore the possibility it could. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm involved, but I endorse close as written, including the consensus against the previous image. Loki (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Closure request for "Inside Voices / Outside Voices"

Per my inquiry at WP:HD, I am requesting a procedural close or snowball close for Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Inside Voices / Outside Voices (2nd nomination). --Jax 0677 (talk) 13:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Stealth Canvassing for RFC

Can anything be done about a controversial ongoing RFC on the names of deceased trans people, and this RFC being shared on a Discord server called "LGBT Wikimedians"? Comment revealed the post here, though since the person commenting is not being accused of impropriety, I didn't ping their talk page.

Discord server posting is specifically called out on WP:CANVASSING as "inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive)". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any reason to believe that the discussion refered to by LilianaUwU (btw this is obviously you starting a discussion about an editor, it's ridiculous that you didn't inform the person you mentioned) is designed to persuade to join in discussions? I see you haven't bothered to ask LilianaUwU or anyone else about it before coming to WP:AN. Maybe we need a guideline about not jumping to negative conclusions about other users' motives or something. --JBL (talk) 20:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Server mod here (speaking just for myself). One user gave a neutral pointer to the RfC on the 10th. While the server generally disallows discussion of ongoing disputes (a higher standard than held by the main Wikimedia community Discord), the mods left this mention (to which no one replied) because this was a discussion at WP:VPP, linked from WT:LGBT, so a very large audience was already aware of the RfC. On the 27th, during a discussion about inclusion of Near's legal name, a different user mentioned their intention to comment in the RfC, without endorsing any specific stance or encouraging anyone else to participate; there was then brief discussion of how the RfC's proposed rule would apply to Near. Under WP:INAPPNOTE, both posts were limited, with neutrally-worded messages, in a semi-transparent setting (server is publicly listed at WP:DISCORD and meta:Discord and open to anyone with a Wikimedia account). As to the remaining prong, partisanship, it may be tempting to assume that LGBT Wikimedians will be on the "pro" side in the RfC, but that's not necessarily the case. Personally I'm moderately opposed, although I've abstained from !voting so far. With all this in mind, I (again, speaking just for myself) stand by our decision to not remove these two policy-compliant mentions of the RfC's existence. And I commend Liliana for her transparency (above and beyond what's required by policy) in acknowledging that she had seen the RfC discussed on-server. -- Tamzin (they|xe|she) 21:58, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Come on, Cuñado, you've been extended confirmed for longer than I've been a Wikipedian, you could've sent me a notification despite the blue lock on my talk page. With that said, I know I've been blocked for canvassing before, so it's understandable to be worried... also, I did say I had intended to weigh in prior; this was true, and the link in that Discord server simply reminded me, as I had forgotten about it. LilianaUwU 23:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

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