Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rsk6400 (talk | contribs) at 06:50, 17 January 2024 (→Lack of Sources for Several Statements: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sons of Confederate Veterans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 12 months

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Military history: North America / United States / American Civil War This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion not met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met Associated task forces: /  North American military history task force United States military history task force American Civil War task force Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Organizations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Time to create an FAQ for this talk page

The need for an FAQ is demonstrated, IMHO. I've drafted such an FAQ at Talk:Sons of Confederate Veterans/FAQ and request input before we decide about inclusion on this talk space. I'll begin just by listing questions. I strongly request assistance, especially when we disagree, so we can hash this out for the passing reader who may take issue with the way we have handled this so far. BusterD (talk) 15:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

This happened during my editing career but I guess I wasn't around when these Archive 1 talk page discussions were going on in 2006. I didn't remember this talk page as being such a battlefield. Interesting reading for the wikipedian. BusterD (talk) 15:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

This is a task I hope I'm not taking on alone. My first questions are intended to provoke more questions and discussion, not by themselves represent work product. BusterD (talk) 15:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

White Supremacy in the first sentence

@PRRfan and 3Kingdoms: The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is (see WP:LEADSENTENCE). In the case of an organization we cannot tell this without mentioning its purpose. And this purpose has always been linked with the Lost Cause and with White Supremacy. On the other hand, the fact that they officially disavow racism, doesn't tell us anything about them, since (nearly) everybody claims to be against racism. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I'm fine with removing "officially disavow racism". PRRfan (talk) 12:36, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I included the official disavow because it was in a reliable source and thought in the interest of fairness it should be included. Personally prefer my wording regarding the lost cause, but if more prefer the current wording so be it.3Kingdoms (talk) 18:18, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. Let me add that WP is no courtroom, so "fairness" doesn't mean that both sides have to be heard. It means WP:NPOV, that is, we neutrally report what reliable sources say, giving weight to each side following secondary sources (see WP:PSTS and WP:BALANCE). Rsk6400 (talk) 07:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

No problem. I understand your point. I felt that the source I included that mentioned the disavowal would be considered reliable. Thanks. 3Kingdoms (talk) 16:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

White Supremacy, yet again.

There have been many attempts to remove from this article the notion that the SCV "promotes...white supremacy". These edits have all been reverted, usually with an explanation that the claim of white supremacy is "reliably sourced". However, I have read through the sources, and none of them states categorically that the SCV promotes white supremacy. Most of the "sources" don't even mention the SCV at all. A couple of them do, but these are best described as opinion pieces, rather than news reports or scholarship. The insertion of "white supremacy" in this article seems to be based on "synthesis" of the sources by various editors. I.e., the SCV commemorates Confederate soldiers, commemoration of the Confederacy is part of a "Lost Cause" narrative, the "Lost Cause" narrative is connected with white supremacists....therefore, the SCV promotes white supremacy. I suggest that those editors who want to keep the white supremacy claim should go out and find better sources. Sources that point-blank state that the SCV is a white supremacist organization or that the stated purpose of the SCV is to promote white supremacy. Otherwise, this back-and-forth deletion/reversion will go on forever. I myself would prefer that the claims of "white supremacy" be put clearly in a section about "criticism", rather than stating in "Wiki-voice" that the organization espouses it, as if the claim is factually true. It is a claim, and needs to be clearly labelled as such. Eastcote (talk) 03:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The "Lost Cause" is NOT about "commemoration of Confederate soldiers", but about deliberately distorting history. The SCV still claim that their ancestors fought for freedom (imagine the cynicism of that !). In our "Purpose", the connection between SCV and White Supremacy is explained according to rock-solid sources. I'd really like to know which of them can be called an "opinion piece". For the rest, please see the comments at #Alleging White Supremacy. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Where exactly on the SCV website or in any of it's published documents does it advocate white supremacy? Just a reminder this isn't a forum so I'm not interested in a discussion, just the links please. 67.177.104.125 (talk) 21:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies favor following what reliable sources say about a subject, not what the subject says about itself. I would be surprised if SCV self-identified as a white supremicist organization, but that has little to do with how reliable sources describe the organization, which is what Misplaced Pages is based on. (Also, to forestall objections, since you seem to have a somewhat tortured view of what makes a source reliable: this is how we determine what constitutes a reliable source here.) --JBL (talk) 21:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand. Because the SCV is a Confederate history/advocacy group its implied that it is a white supremacist organization, which is just following wikipedia guidelines. That's all very neat and tidy, but I didn't ask what about what "reliable sources" think of the SCV or what the SCV thinks or promotes itself to be. I asked where are the sources that demonstrate that the SCV has de facto, as an organization, committed acts or issued documents that can directly link it to white supremacist ideologies or advocating that ideology? I have gone through the list of references and I hope you are not suggesting that those demonstrate the SCV is a white supremacist organization because they seem to be more editorial then actual reporting. 67.177.104.125 (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The description currently in the article corresponds well to the description of SCV given in reliable sources. For everything else, please see WP:NOTFORUM. --JBL (talk) 00:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it's not a forum nor is it supposed to be an editorial site. This article is very weak in facts. If your going to accuse SCV of white supremacy in the first paragraph you need to cite a source immediately. I'd put one in, but I can't find one. Thus my original question. 67.177.104.125 (talk) 01:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Lack of Sources for Several Statements

This topic is a recurring one. The article has several statements that are either not sourced or sources do not substantiate summaries that are written here. I suggest we remove the page in its entirety as it is simply a ground for propaganda on all sides (which is what I thought I was doing - I’ve never removed a page before, only edited). As much as I agree with the statements written, we simply cannot have unsourced opinions constantly posted and reverted to once removed. It makes us, as editors, look petty, immature, and stupid and makes Misplaced Pages look biased and anti-factual, perpetuating the ban by school systems to use Misplaced Pages as a source for essays and research papers. MRJ 13:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeekWriter (talk • contribs)

Which of the 64 references do you challenge, and which statements do you assert are unsupported? Bear in mind that the lead paragraph is a summary of the sourced content in the body of the article. As for deletion, that's extremely unlikely to happen. Acroterion (talk) 14:59, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

As stated, I will compile a list later in the day. This issue gives grounds for a user to watch Janet Osseburg videos on Rumble and use them as a source to cite something as baseless as Obama being involved in child trafficking and sacrificial eating. We are allowing behavior like that if we continue to allow statements to be posted without proper citation. MRJ 15:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeekWriter (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts. No it doesn't give grounds for any article to ignore our policies and guidelines. And schools and universities don't forbid students to use Misplaced Pages. Just as Misplaced Pages itself says, our articles are not reliably published sources. But they are extremely useful in finding good sources, and Universities at least run courses on how to do this, working with editors here who advise them. It's not possible to have this page deleted, it would have to go through WP:AFD where you would have to prove that the subject isn't notable, which clearly it is. Looking at your edits, it looks as though you didn't like the criticism and removed it without checking the sources. Doug Weller talk 15:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Let's tackle these questionable sources used to support the claim of “white supremacy” in this article.   We'll start with: David W. Blight (2001). Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory.  Blight discusses events of over a century ago.  The only place I could find the SCV mentioned was in a footnote about an SCV meeting in 1895, one hundred twenty-nine years ago.   This book does not support the statement that today’s SCV “promotes white supremacy”. The book makes the connection between the “Lost Cause” and white supremacy, and says that various organizations such as the UCV and the UDC were part of maintaining white supremacy in the South.  But, EVERY institution and organization in the South over a century ago was part of maintaining white supremacy:  schools, courts, local governments, churches, even the county road commissions.  It was ingrained in the culture until the 1960s.  Take, for instance, the Southern Baptist Convention, today the largest Protestant denomination in the United States.  It was created in 1845 when American Baptists split over slavery, with the SBC being in support of preserving slavery as an institution.  In the late 19 and early 20 centuries, it was certainly part of the fabric in the South that maintained white supremacy.  But we are a hundred years on from all of that, and the SBC has moved on, to the extent that the SBC includes many African-American members and elected an African-American to head the Convention in 2012.   Times change, and organizations change along with it.  To cite a footnote from a source that discusses how things WERE in 1895, to support claiming that the SCV of 2024 “promotes white supremacy” is a poor use of sources. Eastcote (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The Blight footnote is attached to the claim that the "Lost Cause" is linked to White Supremacy. It is not used to support any claim about the SCV. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:50, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class military history articles
• Start-Class North American military history articles
• North American military history task force articles
• Start-Class United States military history articles
• United States military history task force articles
• Start-Class American Civil War articles
• American Civil War task force articles
• C-Class organization articles
• Low-importance organization articles
• WikiProject Organizations articles