Talk:Dave Carter - Misplaced Pages

This is the current revision of this page, as edited by Cewbot (talk | contribs) at 00:52, 30 January 2024 (Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 2 WikiProject templates. Create {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "Start" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 2 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject Oregon}}.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version.

Revision as of 00:52, 30 January 2024 by Cewbot (talk | contribs) (Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 2 WikiProject templates. Create {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "Start" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 2 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject Oregon}}.)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dave Carter article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

This article is rated Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Oregon Low‑importance

	Oregon portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Oregon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Oregon on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OregonWikipedia:WikiProject OregonTemplate:WikiProject OregonOregon
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
The current collaborations of the month are Women's History Month: Create or improve articles for women listed at Oregon Women of Achievement (modern) or Women of the West, Oregon chapter (historical).

Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent.

The following Misplaced Pages contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Tracygrammer (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (Disclosure made here)

Archives

Consistency

The sources seem to refer to Dave Carter as "he", but the article goes back and forth between "he" and "she". I'm not sure what Carter would have preferred as I never heard of this person before. It's confusing that all of the direct quotes say "he" but then the article says "she". Thoughts? Better sources? —PermStrump(talk) 08:27, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

As the surviving partner of this musical and romantic partnership, I believe it is important that we honor the transition in progress, which has been done quite lovingly. But I would like to suggest that since Dave Carter never had the privilege of introducing his transgender identity to the world, we not take it upon ourselves to do it posthumously. He did not arrive, as it were, at his destination. And the feminine was yet without a name. Indeed, she is without a history of any kind, professionally speaking, as Dave presented male for the duration of his career. Let's let the record stand. Tracygrammer (User talk:Tracygrammer) 17:41, 24 October 2016 (UTC)"Tracygrammer"

2020

Someone has put "her" for "Dave" Carter and it is confusing as hell, from the very second sentence, even to someone who knows about his transition. (It reads as though it suddenly switched to Tracy Grammer.) I'm not changing it only because I don't want to go through the whole article and I don't want to play in the anticipated edit war, but it is a poor decision, and contrary to what Tracygrammer has recommended. I hope someone will change this back so ordinary readers can understand what's being said. Zaslav (talk) 23:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Upfront, this is not a subject in which I have any experience, so I don't know what the policies/guidelines are – following is just my own opinion as a somewhat experienced editor. Running into the "she" pronoun in the lead is just plain confusing, and gets more confusing as one reads on. That totally distracts from the content of the article, which should not happen. The insertion of the "" in front of "he" in quotes is also distracting. Assuming the Dave Carter#Transgender identity section is accurate (which, AGF, agrees with Tracy's account above), I think the article should use the pronoun "he" consistently and quotes should be reverted to their published form. The topic and timeline of the potential/pending transition is well-explained in that section – there's no reason to effectively contradict it by using the wrong pronoun in the rest of the article. —— 18:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, the distraction is because of there being no mention of the gender transition until much later in the article, which is understandable, given the timeline expressed. I'm not trying to say that the distraction alone is an inconvenience that we shouldn't be forced to deal with – just that it's distracting because it's unexplained and looks like a mistake (which turns out to be true in this case). As a WikiGnome, I might be more distracted than others. —— 19:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

First and foremost, Misplaced Pages is all about reliable sources. Are there any reliable sources where they explicitly state that they identify as female? If not and taking into account their transition, I'd be leaning towards neutral pronouns of they, them, and their. However, are there any reliable sources where the subject states they are transitioning? I'm not saying those that have revealed the information are lying, but this issue surrounds self identity. From reading the above comments I presume there are no reliable sources where they state they were in the process of transitioning or that they identify as female, so the pronouns used should be male. – .O. 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
MOS:GENDERID says:

Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article.
Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "" may be used where necessary)

Thus if the use of female pronouns (she) is to remain, an explanation should be added early in the article. If, however, there is no reliable source in which Carter expressed a female identity, or an intention to assume one, female pronouns should not be used. In thqt case I think that Squared.Circle.Boxing is correct and male pronouns should be used. Tracygrammer, do you kn ow of any reliable sources not already cited in the article that bear on this issue? Does anyone else? DES _{DESiegel Contribs} 22:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

So this issue has now been open (this time) for 2 months and I see no argument or sources to support retention of the "she" pronouns. Last call for objections (including procedural) before I revert the edit that did it (and then reapply the later fixes)? —— 17:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Done Pinging Tracygrammer. —— 19:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me. I've spoken with Dave's sister, Elise Fischer, on the matter of the tug-of-war over re-gendering Dave Carter posthumously in Misplaced Pages. We agree the he/him/his should stand, given that David expressed as male, personally and professionally, up until his death. He had not spoken of the transition publicly. Tracygrammer (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Dave Carter. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:12, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Categories: