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Fen

Actually the fen is not in use anymore, but I don't have anymore information about that and I'm too lazy to change the article.

This is not true - the fen is still in daily use. --Shannonr 00:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen any of the fen banknotes that are mentioned in the text. Do you or anybody else have any idea if these are still in circulation at all? CyeZ 15:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I have seen the 1 fen banknotes once in September 2005. But they were given as 1 Yuan notes to a "fresh" unwary tourist, so I don't know if they are really still in circulation. The fen coins however are very much in use today. Ofer -- 22 November 2005

Is there any evidence anyone can provide at to the current status of the 1, 2 and 5 fen coin, ? The coin catalog 2004 from the Peoples Banks states they are still valid and all other banknotes from 1 Jiao to 10 Yuan of series 2 have been withdrawn. Some on-line stories: 1, Ebay sale 2005 1 fen coin, Beijingist: Coin of the realmDiscussion about the fen and jiao denominations — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enlil Ninlil (talk • contribs)

Very well. Interesting read. Let's summarize these blogs and put the in the article, with proper citation. --Chochopk 06:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I recently obtained a coin marked with "壹分", "1983" and "中華人民共和國". That's a PRC coin, and a 壹分-coin is a 1-fen coin, isn't it? I only know how to pronounce Chinese characters according to Japanese pronunciation. Maybe a little old, and I didn't find it in normal circulation (I found it in a washing machine in Kyōto, Japan, probably lost by a Chinese user of that washing machine), but I also found some other coins at the same point: 5角, minted by 中國人民銀行 in 2003, two 1角-coins (minted in 2001 and 2002 respectively, from the same institution) as well as a 1元-coin minted in 中華人民共和國 in 1995. Since some of the coins were minted quite recently, I would assume that they were taken from regular circulation in PRC quite recently. (Stefan2 08:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

Today (3/4/07) I received two new 1 fen coins, dated 2005 and 2006. Seems that PRC has resumed minting them. (Tanelix 16:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

Under what situation did you receive them? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

In a lot of circulated Chinese coins from a German dealer. There were dozens of 2005's and one 2006. (Tanelix 11:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC))

Yuan Symbol

The article was using the symbol for yen (¥ / &#65509) as the currency symbol for CNY. Based on some research that I've been trying to undertake, this is an inaccurate symbol, even though the current Unicode standard would seem to indicate otherwise. Anyone know for certain what the accepted international standard is for the symbol? I've seen Y suggested in multiple sources, but I'd like confirmation. --Dante Alighieri 00:18 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, I was actually Googling about financial sites, and the only symbols I saw was the Japanese yen used in place of the Renminbi, sometimes distinguished by saying "RMB Y". In any case, "Y" and all its incarnations seem to be reserved for Yen, and despite RMB currency are counted in Y(uan) as well, it is left without special symbol. Taiwan also calls it currency New Taiwan Dollar "yuan" as well, and we always symbolize (when not using the Chinese character 元) as $, never Y. But internationally, I don't know how they are used, maybe $RMB or RMB$ --Menchi 00:27 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Here's a Simplified Chinese page (from the PRC) that says "RMB￥". --Menchi 00:30 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, that's as clear as mud. :) Oh well, I suppose we should just use the &#20803 symbol, since we can, and be done with it. While we're at it, should we be calling it CNY or RMB? --Dante Alighieri 00:59 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Should we use the &#20803 character as the symbol? Because it's not really a symbol like $ or ¥ are. Again, I cannot speak for RMB, but for New Taiwan Dollar, if I remember correctly, in accounting and things like that, they just use $. I don't know how Taiwanese accountants disambiguate New Taiwan $ from US $, though.

I don't think normal people use CNY....

--Menchi 01:09 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I suppose we could just duck the whole issue by saying stuff like "12,543.34 yuan" instead of trying to throw a symbol in front of 12,543.34. It's not much different than saying "143,000 dollars" instead of "$143,000"....

We probably shouldn't be deciding this on our own... :) It seems that we could use a Misplaced Pages-wide usage guide on currency symbols. There are lots of issues to discuss, like the proper way of labelling dollars as US dollars or other dollars, for example. I don't recall the format for naming those sorts of discussion pages though... I'll go look. Create a link here if you decide to create the page before I do. --Dante Alighieri 01:13 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I just created Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (currency). Let's see if we can build some consensus there. --Dante Alighieri 01:17 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

In the PRC, they use the yen symbol to mark prices. -- Roadrunner

1 or 2 strokes? --Menchi 03:33 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

2 if I remember right which I might not.

I've seen a lot of signs all around China with one stroke on the Y.... alerante | Talk 01:39, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I made two charts which represent how the disputed signs are displayed in the browser. There are two Unicode entities pointing to the Yen sign, one is Yen Sign (¥ / ¥), the other is the Fullwidth Yen Sign (￥ / ￥).

The following chart varies the font instead of language code. Note that some of the font might not have the actually glyph, most modern browsers would try to substitute the glyph from another font.

--空向 09:11, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Exchange rate of the dollar vs. the renminbi

"The Chinese government has also claimed that, while the PRC runs a large surplus with respect to the United States, its overall balance of payments is not out of balance." i am not sure if this is correctly worded. what does " balance of payments not being out of balance "supposed to mean? china runs a surplus on both the capital and current accounts. it therefore has a positive BOP. Avataran

"The PRC government has also claimed that, while mainland China runs a large surplus with respect to the United States, its overall balance of payments is not out of balance."

I think what this intends to say is that China's overall current account surplus is fairly modest. A country's balance of payments is a table which shows its current account, capital account + any adjustment terms. By construction,for any country, current account surplus = capital account deficit + any adjustmetn terms. What does it mean to say that '(China's) overall balance of payments is not out of balance'? funkydoodle

I think what it meant was that even though China runs a large surplus against the US, it runs a deficit against some other countries, so the overall balance of its trade status is more modest. zhouij

A question about this exchange rate stuff:

When a country devalues it's money, do some types of debt go away, beacuse the dollar it owes is worth less that before? America seems to have been trying to devalue the dollar (did you know a slice of pizza went up 20 cents in the past year?), and it makes sense with the type of deficit Bush has racked up. And I heard China is the big buyer of American bonds. So by inflating the dollar, we should be taking money from the Chinese to pay our deficit, no? But it doesn't work because the Yuan is pegged to the dollar. That must be why we want them to revalue? GWC 23 Winter 2005 22.10 EDT

Valuation

hmm,I think there is no doubt that Renminbi is really undervalued. PRC does not have a real market economy. It politically controls the exchange rate of the dollar vs. the renminbi, and deprives its citizens and workers of rights. This is a unjust competition. Maybe the best way is to impose sanction against it ,and there will be a huge number of unemployed chinese very quickly, which is impossible to take for chinese government.Thus chinese government has no other choice but adopts the real market economy.

After China joined the WTO, are they supposed to follow some regulations? Many critics complain that China is not playing a fair game.

If lets say they allow the RMB to float, at what rate is US supposed to pay for the current United States treasury bonds that China is holding. Also, i think most people are being unfair to China. You don't just wake up one day and float a currency. The process has to be sequenced and timed properly, otherwise they will fuck up their well executed market transition. And yeah, i know US and the rest of the world is hurting, Chinese government is there for China, not for the rest of the world. If all the rest decide to sell their citizen to special interest, don't come around and start blaming China when life get hard.

The most hypocratical part is, USA (And even Europe) had pegged the dollar to the gold for a long time, and in fact, actively resisted floating it. The only reason they actually gave in during the 70s is, they were unable to support every dollar with gold equivalent (Due to the inflation effect of that stupid Korean war)

My guess is, the peg will stay in place until after the banking sector mess is cleared up. Since bank privatization take place 2008, the floating may end up happening in 2010 to 2012. Offcause that assumes there isn't some Chinese special interest pushing for unreasonable sequencing

From 1999/01/01 to 2004/04/18 the interbank exchange rate from FXHistory has been
US$1=8.2836±0.0064 yuan (pegged to US$ since 1995) except for one two-week period around 1999/12/05 when it was 8.2371. The exchange rate for tourists using US dollars to buy renminbi (cash to cash) will be almost 1% lower at the People's Bank Of China.
Joe Kress 18:04, 2004 Apr 19 (UTC)

Is there anything to say on the exchange rate of Renminbi to EURO ?

Links for non-economists and more context

Hi, I found this an interesting article but I didn't understand a fair bit of it. For example, what do these terms mean, and what is their relevance?

• appreciation
• swap center
• current account, capital account

Lupin 15:45, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Other languages printed on Chinese paper currency

I have noticed that there are several other languages (other than Chinese) that are printed on Chinese paper currency. Which specific languages are they?

They are Mongolian language, Tibetan language, Uyghur language, and Zhuang language. I believe that is the order they appear on the note. The big Latin letters are pinyin. ()

I thought it was also in Yi?

No, there's no Yi on the banknotes. -- ran (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yuan Renminbi Relationship

What exactly is the relationship? Is one Yuan equal to one Renminbi? Or is Renminbi the "currency" and Yuan the "unit of currency? At one point, the article gives a conversion rate "8.28 renminbi to the U.S. dollar", but elsewhere it seems to use Yuan in that role. I think the article should clarify the meaning. Monito 00:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

As I'm understanding it, the rough equivalents are that "renminbi" is roughly equivalent to "(the) US Dollar", in that it refers to the currency specific to the country and its base unit; while "yuan" is rough equivalent to the basic word "dollar", in that it can refer to a specific unit of a specific country's currency within that country, but is really a general word for such a unit.

We can refer to a dollar and mean one of any currency that uses the word (Australia, Canada, US, HK, Singapore, or any of the other currencies listed at dollar, and you could say "dollar" to mean any basic unit, especially if it's got a nearly 1:1 exchange rate, although that's purely analogical. But if a US citizen says "dollar" and "yuan" in the same sentence, it's likely it's a US Dollar and a Renminbi being discussed. A PRC citizen saying "yuan", without a modifier, would be referring to a renminbi.

Oh dear, I've rambled. I hope I was at least on point with my analysis. Short answer: a Renminbi is a yuan (coin/unit), and a Renminbi is a Yuan (the unit, specific to PRC), but a dollar is also a yuan (coin/unit), whatever dollar you choose. Azure Haights 09:13, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

So you mean that renminbi, yuan and dollar are all the same—but not really. One thing at least is clear: you are just as confused as Monito and me. I hope someone can really explain this.
—Herbee 14:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I think I just explained it badly. Better short answer: "Renminbi" is the absolute name for the currency of the PRoC. "Yuan" is the word for "coin", and by extension the general term for a base unit; which currency (and which unit) can change by context.

Since "yuan," to my knowledge, is only in use within (the People's Republic of) China, and this is an English Misplaced Pages, "yuan" by context is interchangeable with, and refers only to, the Renminbi. In the native context, "yuan" refers to the base unit, the same way we mention "a dollar" without talking about U.S. currency as a whole. Again, "Renminbi" -> "the Dollar"; "yuan" -> "a dollar".

Did that help? Azure Haights 07:49, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. That last succinct explanation contrasting "the Dollar" with "a dollar" nails it. Monito 00:15, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

This explanation should be added neatly into the beginning of the actual article. I came to this page specifically for this information and did not "get it" untill this far down the discussion page. 129.94.6.28 03:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, the Economist, which knows a damn sight more about these things than I do (hence why I read it), invariably refers to "the yuan" in the same way that it refers to "the dollar", "the pound" or "the euro". According to this explanation, they're wrong to do so, right? Js farrar 00:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The Renminbi is split not into two, but three, base units: yuan, jiao and fen, respectively 1/1, 1/10 and 1/100.

That's another illuminating statement. Few people would agree that the US Dollar is split into three base units: dollar, dime and cent. Exactly what is it that makes jiao and fen base units, unlike dime and cent?
—Herbee 14:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

The US dollar has three base units: dollar, cent, and mill which are 1/1, 1/100, and 1/1000 of the dollar. Monito 01:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Four, actually. The dime is also officially a unit, though hardly anyone ever uses it that way (though the US dime does still say "One dime" on it, rather than "Ten cents") Nik42 04:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, does anyone actually use jiao, or is it like the US dime? For example, would you refer to a price of .50 yuan as "5 jiao", or would you say "50 fen"? Nik42 04:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Almost certainly would call it "5 jiao" not "50 fen".

No one would say 50 fen, it's invariably 5 jiao. Similarly, no one would say 53 fen, instead it's 5 jiao 3 fen. -- ran (talk) 19:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's correct to say "Renminbi or Yuan is..." as it currently does at the opening. Renminbi is the name of the currency, and Yuan is its unit. Thus in Chinese, you can have "Renminbi Yuan", which means "one yuan of the Renminbi currency".

There isn't really an equivalent distinction in the English world, since the name of the currency (Pound sterling, US dollar) contains or is the same as the unit (pound, dollar). However, in the Chinese world, the name of the currency and its unit are different. For example, many present or former currencies use the same unit "Yuan", but they are differentiated by a currency name (人民币, 新台币, 港币, 金圆券 etc).

The difference between the two terms can also be seen from their usage: in Chinese you wouldn't say "this vase costs 10 Renminbi" (10人民币), you would say "this vase costs 10 yuan" (10元), or "10 yuan of Renminbi" (10元人民币/10块人民币). That is, "yuan" is a unit of measure, but "renminbi" is not.

I am editing the opening accordingly. --Sumple (Talk) 05:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

That's broadly similar to fairly common use of the term "sterling" in isolation, then, though in that case it's basically just a shorthand. I have to say that my experience is very similar to Js farrar's; for example the BBC invariably reports the money market rates as "the Chinese Yuan". Is the current article title really in keeping with "common name in English"? Alai 00:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

New currencies

Does anyone know what the new group of currencies the Renminbi is to be loosely valued against consists of? --Krinberry 19:54, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

How's USD, Euro and Gold? --Chewxy

According to the article text, it's USD, EUR, JPY, KRW, and, to a smaller extent, also GBP, THB, RUB, AUD, CAD and SGD, so no XAU. (Stefan2 08:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

POV segment

The following text appears in the "Current CNY Exchange Rates" segment. It seems a little POV, perhaps even propagandistic.

The reform of the capital policy in China cannot change too drastically, and it must be adjusted step by step. The current exchange rate of the RMB yuan and the US dollars reflects the real market value of the RMB yuan, and remaining the currect exchange rate is benifitial for the world economy and also crucial for the peace and development of the world, both for developed and developing worlds. China is a big superpower and is a responsible country, therefore China needs to take extra precautions to regulate the value of its currency and take the presure for maintaining the current exchange rate.

I'm not sure whether it should be reworked, or removed. Ordinary Person 13:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What about "The government states that ..." --Chochopk 17:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Website for picture of Chinese currency

from the Official Govt Website. Why not make a table for all the series similar to that of the 5th series table? Heilme 08:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I am the webmaster of sinobanknote.com, take a look at this --Chochopk 09:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow! That's a really extensive collection of PRC notes. Can you use those image for here? Heilme 08:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Got to check with "copyright" policy here. There are a whole lot of copyright paranoid people here. --Chochopk 09:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

It's yours, right? Heilme 10:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

yes. But some people will come along and say "the central bank still holds the copy right of the design, blah blah blah". --Chochopk 21:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Translation

"The currency number at the bottom of the reverse is added with “YUAN” indicating the pinyin of “dollar”(圓) in Chinese language."

This could also be written in several other ways:

"The currency number at the bottom of the reverse is added with “YUAN” indicating the pinyin of “euro”(圓) in Chinese language."

"The currency number at the bottom of the reverse is added with “YUAN” indicating the pinyin of “yen”(圓) in Chinese language."

"The currency number at the bottom of the reverse is added with “YUAN” indicating the pinyin of “won”(圓) in Chinese language."

etc.

Why translate "yuan" into "dollar" and not into any of the other meanings? This needs to be formulated in a better way. (Stefan2 11:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC))

I think this whole thing needs to be reworked.

1. "YUAN" is the pinyin of 圓
2. 圓 is the Chinese word for dollar, which is the unit
3. Renminbi means "People's currency"

--Chochopk 18:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Why isnt this page called Chinese Renminbi, like the Afghan afghani or Mauritanian ouguiya? Enlil Ninlil 11:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"圓 is the Chinese word for dollar, which is the unit"

圓 is not only the Chinese word for dollar, it's also the Chinese word for euro, yen, won, circle and other things. Why translate 圓 as "dollar" when the same character is used for several other currencies as well? No one would talk about "PRC dollar" (although 圓 is translated as "dollar" when talking about e.g. ROC 圓 or US 圓). (Stefan2 08:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

This looks like another transliteration/translation confusion. "Yuan" in the English language means only the Chinese Renminbi Yuan. All other "Yuan"s have other names: dollar, euro, yen, won, etc.

It is certainly correct to say, in the English Misplaced Pages, that "Yuan" = "Renminbi Yuan", even if 元 does not equal 人民币元 in Chinese.

Make sense? --Sumple (Talk) 11:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

100 note

What is the 100 yuan(2000) note? i have never seen that before! is that true? --User:Yacht (talk) 05:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the orange one with a dragon on it? It's a commemorative note that celebrates the new millennium. And it's polymer. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

45 year old women didn't know she's on RMB

http://udn.com/NEWS/WORLD/WOR1/3705384.shtml Template:Zh icon --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

For those of us who don't read Chinese, could you summarise? (a bit more than "45 year old women didn't know she's on RMB" please!). -- Arwel (talk) 17:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

(very quickly done translation with some omission)

She's the girl on the right side the 1 yuan note of the 4th series. She is an ethnic Dong from Guizhou. Her name is Shi Naiyin (石奶引). She is now a 45-year old woman.

She's never known that her portrait was used on the currency, until she's found a few years ago. It was then she remembered what happened so many years ago.

It was about 1978, when she was only 16. She was on her way to a bazaar with her friends, dressed in traditional Dong outfit. In the crowded market, somebody grabbed her from the back. It was a complete stranger, with 2 other men standing next to him.

The man asked her to stand out and turn aside. Then he quickly drew her portrait. She stood at the his request, but with doubt. After she got home, she didn't tell this event to her parents nor her friends. It has been forgotten since then.

She was married at age of 23 and has a son and a daughter. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 22:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Mainland or not?

For a recent reversion between me and User:Secrecy

--ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• But you should also state that the renminbi can be used in theme parks like Disneyland, Ocean park in Hong Kong. But I dont know about Macau? Enlil Ninlil 06:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is worth mentioning. And small businesses on the street, if they choose to. However, the acceptance is completely voluntary, the same manner euro might be accepted by hotels in Switzerland. I don't know about Macau either. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

NOT ABOUT HONG KONG.

Are Hong Kong part of the People's Republic of China	Template:NOT ABOUT HONG KONG
Is renminbi the currency of Hong Kong	Template:NOT ABOUT HONG KONG
Is renminbi the currency of PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF China	Yes
NAME OF COUNTRY PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA CHANGE IN 1997?	Northern Ontario
Is Hong Kong a separate economy?	Template:NOT ABOUT HONG KONG

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Secrecy (talk • contribs) 01:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

What is your point with a non-existing template, and "Northern Ontario" and its flag? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 01:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The US Dollar is accepted in many places around the world. In shops at Shanghai airport, for example, you can only pay in US dollars. That does not make the US dollar China's currency, does it?

Whether individual businesses or organisations choose to receive a foreign currency or not does not, as a matter of common usage, determine whether it is that territory's currency. --Sumple (Talk) 23:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you in principle, Sumple. So do you agree with my edit (Renminbi is the currency of Mainland of the People's Republic of China), or Secrecy's edit (Renminbi is the currency of the People's Republic of China). My point is that Secrecy's edit implies that Renminbi is also the currency of Hong Kong, which would contradict your point. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 23:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I agree with Chochopk's edits, that the Renminbi is not the currency of Hong Kong.

Ocean Park takes RMB because it is their choice. If RMB was Hong Kong's currency, you'd be able to use it everywhere - which you can't. --Sumple (Talk) 01:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the legal situation is this: the Renminbi is the legal tender currency of the People's Republic of China, which includes Hong Kong (Art 16, People's Bank of China Law)

However, laws of the People's Republic of China do not apply to Hong Kong, unless expressly extended to Hong Kong by a resolution of the National People's Congress (Art 18, Basic Law).

As a result, Art 16 of the People's Bank Law does not apply to Hong Kong. As a result, the Renminbi is not, at law, legal tender in Hong Kong. --Sumple (Talk) 01:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

But it is the legal tender of the "People's Republic of China" not "mainland China". SchmuckyTheCat 18:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

NOT ABOUT HONG KONG! NOT HK POV! INTERNATIONAL. NATIONAL $$ OF PRC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Secrecy (talk • contribs) 05:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Sumple, for citing the laws. Let me copy the articles here.

• Article 16 of the People's Bank of China Law:

• My translation:

Use Google translate if you want.

• Article 18 of the Basic Law of Hong Kong:

--ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

NOT SAY MAINLAND DO IT? NOT ABOUT HONG KONG. STOP MENTION HONG KONG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Secrecy (talk • contribs) 06:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course it has to do with Hong Kong. When you say "People's Republic of China", it includes Hong Kong. Of course it is related. And would you please sign your name with --~~~~? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• Ge man I was just stating that it could be used at the theme parks. Guess I will choose who to talk too and ignore the rest. Enlil Ninlil 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Chochopk, that there are other legal currencies in China does not mean this is the "mainland" currency. It is THE national currency.

In fact, the way it is currently written a reader might mis-assume that it is some private internal only currency, which isn't at all the case. In fact it is well used (as is the HK dollar) by any number of bordering Asian countries which have unstable currencies. And of course, it is the international currency of the PRC.

What this comes down to is Misplaced Pages policy of attribution. The source provided never says "mainland". SchmuckyTheCat 18:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, attribution and references are important. But we can't take it word by word. Otherwise, Misplaced Pages would become Wikisource. I have quoted two articles above, one is in line with your argument (renminbi is the currency of the PRC), but I also quote an article of the Basic Law of HK. My concern, for a better Misplaced Pages, is that the statement "renminbi is the currency of the PRC" is not factually and logically correct because of HK. This is a simple logical deduction that Secrecy has, unfortunately, not recognized. I am not sure what you mean by "some private internal only currency". If wording is your concern, I think we can find a way to resolve this. But the only alternative I can think of right now, "renminbi is the currency of the PRC, except Hong Kong and Macau" would trigger even more POV debate because people will question "does it imply Taiwan is not part of PRC or Taiwan is, and uses renminbi?" Mainland seems to be the only neutral and factually correct word. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 05:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it means that like everything else, the situation is complicated because of the political issue, but calling it the "mainland" currency is just plain wrong. We don't re-print sources word for word, we paraphrase multiple sources into a coherent hole. We don't make shit up. If there is a need for a disclaimer a short paragraph in the introduction will do and it should be easy enough to word it. I'll put some wording here to discuss later.

Secrecy is incoherent. I believe his last statement meant "The law doesn't say mainland. This article is not about Hong Kong. Hong Kong doesn't change the PRC."

FYI, an internal currency is a currency only used internally by citizens of the country. It was a common thing for many historical totalitarian regimes. The renminbi used to trade this way which the article states poorly: "With the opening of the mainland Chinese economy in 1978, a dual track currency system was instituted, with renminbi usable only domestically, and with foreigners forced to use foreign exchange certificates." The North Korean won and Cuban peso are still internal currencies.

SchmuckyTheCat 06:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you know what "境内" refers to, as used in Chinese laws? - Privacy 21:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the "mainland" designation again while changing the "Influence" section to cover Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and bordering countries. While looking for quality references I was surprised to read just how accepted renminbi usage in HK and MO is. With banks allowing renminbi based accounts with debit/credit card usage it pretty much is a legal second currency. This is obviously going to rise as economic integration occurs. SchmuckyTheCat 03:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

First, I would like to say SchmuckyTheCat's recent contribution was valuable. Even though he/she and I have different stand points on this debate, my appreciation should not go unnoted. Even though I can have a bank account in renminbi in HK or MO, that doesn't mean we should omit the word "mainland". I can also have an account in USD in Taiwan. Should I put Taiwan in the infobox of the USD's article? From this whole debate here, at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 18, and edit like this, I get the feeling that SchmuckyTheCat is a Chinese patriot. But what many fail to realize is that removal of the word "mainland" is separatism. It implies that HK is not part of the PRC. I will try to edit and make some middle ground. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a Chinese patriot, in fact, I've refused to relocate to Beijing because I'd rather not live in red China. Hong Kong is fine though. I'm not even Chinese. I own a PRC flag, but only because I busted out laughing because the tag says "made in Taiwan".

I view the usage of "mainland" opposite of you. By insisting on including it, it gives the appearance that Hong Kong/mainland issues are equals, state-to-state, instead of intracountry. It is inappropriate, as the Central People's Congress always has ultimate authority of interpretation. It is on intracountry issues alone that the PRC uses the term. SchmuckyTheCat 06:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Very well, I take back my statement about being a patriot. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

My two cents: It should be "mainland of the PRC", as it's not used in Macau and Hong Kong. —Nightstallion (?) 13:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It's tricky to translate "境内" as appeared in legislations into English. In laws that are not listed in the Annex III of either or both basic laws of Hong Kong and Macao, "境内" excludes Hong Kong and Macao. — Instantnood 22:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Arbitary Section Break

I am starting to understand what you're saying. Renminbi used to be an internal currency, with a "foreign exchange certificate" (外匯券) designated for foreigners. That system ended around 1994, I think. I still don't know why you say saying "mainland" is plain wrong. "Mainland" is a territorial term, which include 22 privinces, 5 autonomous regions, and 4 municipalities. If readers confuse that with "domestic use" or "for domestic citizens" only, then it's really their fault. Besides providing a wiki link to Mainland China, there are ways we can deliver factually correct, comprehensive, and complete info, such as

The renminbi or ren min bi (simplified Chinese: 人民币; traditional Chinese: 人民幣; pinyin: rénmínbì; lit. 'people's currency') is the official currency in the mainland of the People's Republic of China (PRC). (references). The two special administrative regions, Hong Kong and Macau, have their own currencies.

From 19xx to 19xx, a dual system was used where the renminbi was used by the citizens, while foreign exchange certificate was used by foreign tourists.

--ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

- <deindent> Can I just say as an outside editor passing by that its ridiculous to refer to the currency of mainland china. Its the Currency of the People's Republic of China and all that you need to do is add a short note to explain that the Basic law applies so its not the currency of Hong Kong and Macau. By the way, I don't think mainland china is a neutral term anyway. In the UK it was the term used to describe the PROC when Taiwan was the recognised Chinese government so the term is inevitably going to be read as pro-Taiwan. Spartaz 06:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, things have changed, haven't they? Now that the U.K. recognises the PRC the sole representative of China. So the term "Mainland China" spoken by a British would be equivalent to the "Mainland China" spoken by the PRC government. The PRC government would not say the renminbi is the currency of HK. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I support Chocopk's proposal. I guess to be absolutely accurate, the legal situation is that the Renminbi is the official currency of the People's Republic of China. However, under the the One Country, Two Systems arrangement, it is not legal tender in the two SARs, each of which has its own currency.

It would also be correct to say that it is only legal tender in "mainland China". --Sumple (Talk) 08:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The whole point is that things haven't changed. Mainland China is not a neutral term in the UK (and I'm sure elsewhere). You should simply say China and add an explanatory note. Anything else is just goingt o look a little silly. Spartaz 08:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is starting to get lame, even though the degree of lameness can never reach that of "what's the plural of 'euro'? euro or euros?". I have been trying to explain why the use of "Mainland" is not only accurate, but also NPOV. And it should not involve the ROC. Now I am forced to enumerate this table. Questions and what would each political group answer.

Now,

1. if you disagree with the outcome of this table, point out where
2. if you agree with the outcome of this table, then how is a statement "Renminbi is the currency of Mainland China of the People's Republic of China" inaccurate, incomplete, or inappropriate? Except the old-school Kuomintang, which is now almost non-existing, all groupss would agree with my proposal.

For further information, see

• Republic of China
• People's Republic of China
• One country, two systems
• Political status of Taiwan
• Political divisions of China
• History of the political divisions of China

And these two maps

--ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 09:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Spartaz, I don't know how it is in the UK, but the term "mainland China" is definitely not "pro-Taiwan" or "non-neutral" elsewhere. It is used by the Taiwanese and Chinese governments alike, and by many foreign governments, too.

And I agree, this is definitely heading towards WP:LAME. (and, btw, LOL @ table!) --Sumple (Talk) 10:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to waste my time if you are going to be disparaging when I'm only trying to óffer another perspective. Do what you like, I'm taking the article off my watchlist. Spartaz 10:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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