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This page was proposed for deletion by Maylingoed (talk · contribs) on 29 December 2023 with the comment: Duplication of Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel - (CSD A10). It was contested by Isabelle Belato (talk · contribs) on 29 December 2023 with the comment: Content is significantly different; Seems to be a WP:POVFORK

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Section sizes Section size for Gaza genocide (53 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 35,781 35,781 Background 32,097 37,683 Legal definition of genocide 2,234 2,234 Other definitions of genocide 1,887 1,887 Minimum number of victims 1,465 1,465 Alleged genocidal acts 150 78,569 Direct killings 22,366 22,366 Indirect deaths 9,538 9,538 Starvation 19,186 19,186 Deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure 2,056 2,056 Incommunicado detention, torture and sexual violence 3,284 3,284 Attacks on healthcare 13,109 13,109 Other 8,880 8,880 Genocidal intent 11,121 38,958 Israeli cabinet ministers 11,503 11,503 Israeli president and members of Israeli parliament 722 722 Invocations of Amalek 7,311 7,311 Other Israeli officials 5,292 5,292 Other evidence of genocidal intent 3,009 3,009 Academic and legal discourse 5,040 39,949 Holocaust and genocide studies 14,314 14,314 Middle Eastern studies 7,095 7,095 International law scholars 8,050 8,050 Others 5,450 5,450 Legal proceedings 24 59,826 International Court of Justice application 42,431 46,219 Israeli response 3,788 3,788 International Criminal Court 2,520 2,520 U.S. Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit 5,116 5,116 Occupation proceedings 1,311 1,311 German lawsuit 1,550 1,550 Nicaragua v. Germany 1,479 1,479 Australian legal proceedings 1,607 1,607 Responsibility of third states 5,495 43,380 United States 5,667 25,067 Rhetoric from U.S. politicians 19,400 19,400 United Kingdom 7,076 7,076 Germany 5,742 5,742 Statements by political organisations and governments 60 87,993 World leaders and governments 52,696 52,696 Civil servants and elected representatives 6,573 6,573 NGOs and intergovernmental organisations 18,170 28,664 United Nations 10,494 10,494 Cultural discourse 11,917 34,463 Media discourse 13,802 13,802 Israeli public opinion 3,152 3,152 Claims of antisemitism 5,592 5,592 See also 356 356 Footnotes 30 30 References 30 31,428 Works cited 31,398 31,398 Further reading 7,013 7,013 External links 897 897 Total 496,326 496,326

List of Supporting Countries

Please add a list of countries and organisations supporting South Africa's case at ICJ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.70.80.51 (talk) 23:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

January 2024

I propose that we split this article into like 10 articles more. Clearly we haven't created enough content forks out of this war, how about we divide it by months or cities or something? I'm sure it will serve for, well, something probably.

This article is at least much, much more serious and realistic than Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. But we have Palestinian genocide accusation already. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 16:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Redirecting to Palestinian genocide accusation has already been tried by Parham wiki and was reverted by Vinegarymass911 with the comments that these two articles are "... not the same thing and this should not be merged without a discussion". Also, while article titles should be precise, advice also exists that precise language should not date quickly. Now it is January 2024, I also have to wonder at the wisdom of including the year in the article title. The current conflict in Gaza does not look like being over any time soon, so a change in title is probably warranted. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we should merge this and the (currently somewhat shambolic) Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel into a neutral Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war (or whatever the main article ends up getting moved to). Keeping two separate articles is a recipe for POV forking based on original research and synthesis, rather than a collaborative effort to summarize, with due weighting, what reliable sources say - which is what we're supposed to be doing here. PrimaPrime (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. To me the current situation just seems like a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation, editors creating certain articles and other editors creating their equivalent of the other side as a reaction. Though if it was up to me I'd completely delete the genocide by Hamas one and merge this one into the general one for a Palestinian genocide, which is an article in a much better shape and standing. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is much in common between the two articles to merit a merger? VR _talk 06:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

There is, quite obviously in my view, much in common between the two. They're the same article but about the opposite side in the same war. And both are alleged genocides. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain what is in common? In other words, wouldn't that article just consist of two sections: "allegations against Israel", and "allegations against Hamas". VR _talk 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

At least that would provide some balance. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:FALSEBALANCE. WillowCity 23:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I also cannot see what is in common, nor what balance. Hamas is certainly accused of having genocidal intent towards Israel, but I have heard of no one who thinks that October 7 - however indiscriminate and bloody it was - was a realistic attempt to eliminate Israel or the Israeli people. Pincrete (talk) 10:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

International law references "genocidal acts" in discussions of genocide. Essentially, genocidal intent + violent action to pursue that intent = genocidal act. Hamas has absolutely been accused of genocidal acts re 7 October. It's why the genocide conventions say "in whole or in part". But that's hardly germane to this discussion. Jbbdude (talk) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It would only be false balance if the two sides were presented perfectly equally rather than in proportion to the weight they are given in reliable sources. I imagine we could have a shorter section about accusations of genocide against Hamas re: October 7, followed by a longer section about accusations of genocide against Israel in the ensuing war. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Request to add Masha Gessen's comments

Masha Gessen, when asked if what is happening in Gaza is a genocide stated, "I think there are some fine distinctions between genocide and ethnic cleansing and I think that there are valid arguments for using both terms". When pressed further they stated, "it is at the very least ethnic cleansing". This was followed soon after controversy surrounding Gessen's receival of the Hannah Arendt Prize over remarks in a New Yorker Article critical of Israeli actions in the strip wherein Gessen compared them to an Eastern European Ghetto "being liquidated" by the Nazis. Nandofan (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Nandofan, added, though in the 'cultural discourse' section since she has no claim to being a legal or similar scholar. Pincrete (talk) 11:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you Nandofan (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete thanks, @Nandofan sorry, I should have checked other replies first. Irtapil (talk) 06:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete *they

Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nandofan If you're able to edit the article then I agree that's relevant and endorse you adding it, but it needs a reference.

If you're not able to edit the article, can you suggest where that fits and give a link to a citation we can use please?

Irtapil (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Just saw someone already done. Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Title Change to "Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war"

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - I can see no consensus for moving at this point, and the discussion has run long enough. The nom raises some quite valid points about accuracy in "war" versus "attack". The oppose !votes are making a point that is not obviously connected to the proposed change in title, or if it is it needed more explanation than they have provided. However, with only one support !vote the necessary consensus is also not really here. This close is without prejudice to opening a further discussion FOARP (talk) 15:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza → Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war – See below.

Aside from the above discussion of merging this article with Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, the title of this article is just weird. Yes, I assume that some editor(s) with a particular viewpoint/POV chose to name this article as a parallel with that one. However, as many folks have invoked in the aforementioned discussion, that's just a false parallel. The common name for Israel's action is a "war" (Gaza War, Israel-Hamas War, whichever) rather than an "attack". Misplaced Pages refers to 7 Oct as the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel (and frankly, that genocide allegation Misplaced Pages article title should be amended to match this "Hamas-led" usage, to maintain consistent terminology across Misplaced Pages) while it refers to the events encompassing the Israeli response as the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. If this article ends up merged, the proper title would likely be "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" or, for accuracy and completeness, "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel and Israel–Hamas war" (a bit long, but more precise and clear). For now, though, as a separate article, calling it the "Israeli attack on Gaza" is inconsistent with the terminology for this event in use elsewhere on Misplaced Pages and, more significantly, in widespread media coverage and public discourse. Jbbdude (talk) 02:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Please read the 2nd paragraph on 2023 Israel–Hamas war. That may help. Natsuikomin (talk) 13:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, sorry for misunderstanding. Now I know what you meant to say, inconsistency of the naming. Natsuikomin (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jbbdude The current title is appropriate and consistent.

The Israeli attack on Gaza is an event within a broader war. The genocide claims are specific to that locality and that attack, e.g. Israel are not currently being accused of genocide in Lebanon or the West Bank. There have been attacks in both those areas, but on a different scale.

Likewise Hamas et al. are being accused of genocide on 7 October, but nobody is suggesting that their current attacks on IDF troops invading Gaza are a genocide (at least nobody even remotely credible) and that corresponding page has a similar narrow title.

Irtapil (talk) 06:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Because attack and genocide are simply not the same thing? Natsuikomin (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jbbdude I re read the middle of what you said. But I stand by what I wrote originally. There is only one war; the "war" goes all the way from Lebanon to the Red Sea, but the genocide is in the Gaza strip.

An "attack" is an action within a war, the word "attack" possibly isn't ideal, but "war" isn't a good substitute, because the war is bigger. Do you have any other suggestions?

"Invasion" doesn't fit, because the first clearly genocidal act was cutting off the food and water nearly a month before the invasion. And the day before that there were bombings that some would class as the start.

Irtapil (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support. "Israeli attack on Gaza" implies that this is a single unilataeral attack rather than an ongoing bilateral war. Furthermore, reliable source do not refer to it as the "2023 Israeli attack on Gaza". The article should be renamed to Allegations of genocide in the Israel-Hamas War Marokwitz (talk) 08:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment We have Use of human shields by Hamas and Human shields in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and apparently we are missing Use of human shields by Israel to balance things up. Or perhaps we only need the middle one. This sort of titling is common atm, we have Palestinian genocide accusation too but not a Israeli genocide accusation except as a redirect to the former, Idk why. The current title seems already to refer to an allegation against Israel without the need to further alter it.Selfstudier (talk) 11:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the victims in this conflict have been innocent Palestinian civilians. David A (talk) 07:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. As per @David A. Natsuikomin (talk) 08:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

First sentence of background is awkward

First sentence of background reads very strangely, "Background - After Israel began the bombing of Gaza following the 7 October attacks, some Palestinians immediately expressed concern that this violence would be used to justify genocide against Palestinians by Israel."

But I'm stumped on how to fix it. Can a better writer than I am please have a go at turning it into something cohesive?

It looks like multiple people have added three opinionated words each? All of the points there probably should be included, but connected better and with a more even tone.

Irtapil (talk) 06:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Flaws seem to be that it isn't only Palestinians, it isn't now only concerns about what would happen, it's about deeds rather than only about justification. Pincrete (talk) 07:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I've tried to fix, I don't know whether this works for others. Pincrete (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Civilian attack infobox

The article has acquired a civilian attack infobox. It is much less muddled, PoV and synthy than that of the related 'historic' article infobox. Still, is this apt for an article about accusations? Pincrete (talk) 06:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I would say not. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Considering various other genocide accusation articles, including specifically in contexts of war, also use the same infobox for a brief summary, it would seem to be the best one we have until a specific one is created, and would be in line to how we treat other articles of a similar nature. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

This is less synthy than the related infobox, but how do you decide what are the motives for an allegation? Who says that the motives are Anti-Palestinianism or Settler colonialism? Finally, where in the article are these motives expounded?Pincrete (talk) 10:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It may be better to leave that section blank until we have more comprehensive sources that state the alleged motives. Though for a the three motives listed, on the first that is easy to cite to the statements of Israeli officials on declaring war against Hamas and Gaza. The second you could cite to previous statements in recent years from government officials and politicians, such as declaring Palestine and Palestinians do not exist, alongside statements that declare the West Bank and Gaza as Israeli territory, and the dehumanising language used against Palestinians both before October 2023 and since. For the third point, you'd cite it to such papers as:

• Wolfe, Patrick (21 December 2006). "Settler colonialism and the elimination of the native". Journal of Genocide Research. 8 (4): 387–409. doi:10.1080/14623520601056240.
• Rashed, Haifa; Short, Damien (2012). "Genocide and settler colonialism: can a Lemkin-inspired genocide perspective aid our understanding of the Palestinian situation?". The International Journal of Human Rights. 16 (8): 1142–1169. doi:10.1080/13642987.2012.735494. S2CID 145422458.
• Shaw, Martin (2013). "Palestine and Genocide: An International Historical Perspective Revisited". Holy Land Studies. 12 (1): 1–7. doi:10.3366/hls.2013.0056.

You could also cite it to any of the news pieces written which cover the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territories by Israeli settlers. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"Gaza genocide" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gaza genocide has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 17 § Gaza genocide until a consensus is reached. The sum of all human knowledge (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

"We will eliminate everything"

This is a mistranslation and misinformation. The actual quote is Gaza will not return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate it all. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I've modified so as to report the initial quote - and its correction rather than simply linking to an article saying "the quote was wrong".Pincrete (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

That is NYT correction (ie they reviewed the thing again) of their initial report so they believe it to be "everything". Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Suggested edit: Main article link for Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

After the heading === Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit ===

I request that a link to the main article for this lawsuit be inserted on the line immediately following that heading.

Lovelano (talk) 07:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — kashmīrī  10:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

More sources

Some more sources

• Kestler-D'Amours, Jillian (9 January 2024). "Israel's war on Gaza and the 'obligation to prevent genocide'". Al Jazeera.
• "Nicaragua taking Germany, Canada, UK, Netherlands to ICJ for genocide". Al Mayadeen. 5 February 2024.
• "Former UNWRA Spokesperson Says UK & US Complicit in Gaza Genocide". Novara Media. 5 February 2024.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Link to Channel 14

Channel 14 is mentioned twice in the article. It is not clear what / who this channel is. It would be better to make the first reference a link to the Misplaced Pages article about Channel 14. 86.139.218.163 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — Pincrete (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 13 February 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Description of suggested change: Please add a wikilink for "Genocidal intent" to the phrase "intent to destroy" in the first paragraph, so that it reads ].

Diff:

188.176.174.30 (talk) 10:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done — kashmīrī  11:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. 188.176.174.30 (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

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