Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AWilliamson (talk | contribs) at 03:27, 7 December 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Was Faust an actual living person? Kingturtle 18:58 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

My understanding is that there was in fact a living Dr. Faustus, a German alchemist from around the 1500s. He's been more or less overshadowed by his legend, same as Merlin. There's a web discussion of the original Faust here: http://www.internationalliving.com/postcards.cfm?pcard=2379 -- IHCOYC 19:11 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

This article should be moved to the more inclusive List of occultists, as it already includes many whom the label magician does not fit (and paranormal magicians sounds rather weird to boot.) Mkweise 20:26 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

History probably makes this look like a big change, but it is not. Being extraordinarily unoccupied, I just sorted the names by alphabet. Okay, I also did some minor adjustments and added a couple of names, but nothing special. There definitely are a lot more occultists in Misplaced Pages that do not appear in this list yet.

Jesus Christ?

What idiot put Jesus Christ down as an occultist! Pitchka 22:24, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

Many occultists are eager to claim Jesus Christ as one of their own. There is a long, long tradition of occult speculation that has Jesus, for instance, studying magic and hermetica or Hindu traditions in the years between his childhood and his public career. The Theosophical Society claimed him for an Ascended Master. Bear in mind that this is about people who have been claimed to be occultists, as the intro states. Jesus Christ definitely belongs on the list. -- Smerdis of Tlön 22:13, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This type of speculation (or fiction) has no evidentiary merit whatsoever, and should not be used as the basis for adding someone - unless this article is just going to be yet another list-of-unsupported-claims. AWilliamson 03:50, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If your objection is one made in good faith, why do you not ask for sources instead of rather presumptively asserting, that such do not exist? -- Cimon 06:52, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Like the article states, this is a subject that has tended to attract hoaxes, tall tales, and folklore. Google on "Ascended Master Jesus" and you will find just under 400 pages of people advancing the POV that Jesus was an "Ascended Master;" some suggest that later figures might be his reincarnation -- and that's just one strain of esoteric claims about Jesus. (What the various flying saucer people make of him is even stranger.) With Solomon, the evidence is even clearer; long standing Jewish traditions have Solomon summoning and commanding demons via magic, and as such Solomon gets credited for all sorts of magical texts that supposedly contain his secrets. -- Smerdis of Tlön 18:50, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As you say, there are certainly many available "hoaxes, tall tales, and folklore", and various theories promoted by internet sites; but given that other "List of..." articles at Misplaced Pages are generally based - and are certainly supposed to be based - upon proven information in keeping with the requirements of an encyclopedia article, I've changed the article to state that entries must be based on accepted historical fact. The common procedure I've seen used in other articles of this sort is to remove any doubtful cases until hard evidence is provided, and I have therefore changed the list accordingly (while adding others to compensate). The only 'evidence' that has been cited so far is the allegation that Jewish tradition supposedly describes Solomon as a sorcerer; but since Jewish theology actually condemns the use of magic as a sin, it hardly seems credible that Jewish tradition would make such a claim about a king of Israel.

I've added other, more plausible, entries to make up for those which were removed, and can add more if need be. Hopefully this can be worked out amicably. AWilliamson 04:21, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Bible also goes on about how Solomon worshipped false gods in his later years, and blames these sins on the influence of his wives. The article on Solomon specifically mentions his magical legends, summoning demons, and so forth. Jesus may be a somewhat harder example, but it isn't hard to verify that these claims are out there; again, a Google search will yield a fair number of 'em. For that matter, the claims of the Gospels that Jesus worked miracles and rose from the dead are enough to qualify him as a person who is said to have worked paranormal feats. We aren't going to establish the absolute truth about Jesus or Solomon here; we can only repeat the claims that have been made about them. -- Smerdis of Tlön 20:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would make two brief points: 1) A "List of Occultists" is not the place for any and every person who has supernatural feats of any kind credited to them - unless this particular list page is going to be so broadly defined as to have overlap with numerous others, in which case it would be redundant. 2) Since it is common practice in other "List" pages to remove any persons for whom hard proof has not been provided, "magical legends" and internet theories would not be sufficient to justify a person's inclusion.  AWilliamson 03:27, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)