Talk:Amir Khusrau - Misplaced Pages

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Isn't Amir Khusro also credited with "inventing" the sitar (and some other musical instruments)? Sarabseth 20:57, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Evidently, the inventor of the Sitar is a different Amir Khusro. I have added a section regarding this in called "Amir Khusro and the origin of the Sitar" in the main article. Kamran Saeed | Talk.

Thanks! He is also sometimes credited with "inventing" the tabla. Do you know anything about that? Sarabseth 28 June 2005 19:58 (UTC)

That is correct. Amir Khusro is said to have fashioned the Tabla as a "split" version of the traditional Indian drum, the Pakhawaj. I have thus far not been able to find any definitive or usable material on the subject, though. Kamran

Do you think there's any harm in adding this to the entry for now: "He is credited with fashioning the Tabla as a "split" version of the traditional Indian drum, the Pakhawaj." Sarabseth 3 July 2005 11:46 (UTC)

I did not happen upon this page until now. Sorry for the delay in my reply. I think there is no harm in adding the line for the tabla in the form you suggest, until somebody comes up with more definitive material to either confirm or refute the statement. Should there be a separate section for it, or should the line just be added to the section on the sitar? The section could be renamed to something like "Amir Khusro and the origins of the Sitar and the Tabla". What do you think? Kamran Saeed | Talk.

I changed the section title and added the tabla sentence. I put it before the sitar paragraph; reads better that way, I think. Sarabseth 12:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Looks good! I made a minor edit to correct a couple of typos. Thanks! Kamran 21:51, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Invention of Tabla and Sitar

There is no controversy that Tabla was invented by Amir Kusro by splitting the traditional indian drum. However there is lots of confusion about Sitar. Sitar existed before Amir Khusro in some form, was reshaped by him, and now is in a form that was reshaped in 18th century. The reason for confusion being that the word Sitar is itself confusing. The word has persian origin and can sound Seh-Taar (3 strings) or See-Taar (30 strings). To add to confusion, there was a legendary sitar player named Khusro Khan in the 18th century, exactly the same time the sitar underwent modern shape. Maybe the 18th century sitar player Amir Khusro got credit for the modern sitar and then the 13th century Sufi Amir Khuro was confused with it.Hassanfarooqi 13:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hindvi or Hindi?

There are two entries in "Works" which use the word Hindvi. Should this perhaps be Hindi? Sarabseth 14:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I think Hindvi is the term for the dialects of central and northern India, basically like Hindustani. Mar de Sin 20:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hindawi is the term most commonly used by contemporary sources to describe the range of languages spoken from the Indus to Bengal. Hindii is a word of more recent provenance. See, for example, Lelyveld, D. (1994). "Zubān-e Urdū- Mu‘allā’ and the Idol of Linguistic Origins." The Annual of Urdu Studies 9. I would also suggest that you remove the reference to the Ḳhāliq Bārī as its attribution has been shown by Ḥafiẕ Maḥmūd Shīrānī, in the frontispiece to the 1773-4 A.D. Anjuman-e Taraqqī-ye Urdū edition of the text, to be apocryphal. The work instead appears to have been written in 1622, and the author went by the name Ẓiyā ud-Dīn Ḳhusrau. The actual intended title of the glossary was Ḥafż ul-Lisān. See Shīrānī, Ḥ. M. (1944). "Dībācha-ye duvum ." Ḥafż ul-Lisān (a.k.a. Ḳhāliq Bārī). Ḥ. M. Shīrānī. Delhi, Anjumman-e Taraqqi-e Urdū. --Haklu 15:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yurikbot

This is getting really annoying! I tried before to get through to Yurik, and I've just tried again. If this happens again, can someone else please try to get his attention? --Sarabseth 02:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything is as it suppose to, see my talk. --Yurik 05:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yurik's reply: "The bot is doing everything correctly: it replaces a link hi:अमीर खुसरो with hi:आमिर खुसरो because the first one does not exist -- its a redirect! You never want to link a page to a redirect as that redirect may change at any point, which would cause conflicts later on. If the first title is the proper one, you should move the hi: article to the new name, which would cause a bot (ANY interwiki bot, not just mine) to update all referencing pages."

Can someone who knows that they're doing please make the recommended change? Thanks! --Sarabseth 12:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration

I'm gonna go ahead and change the Hindi translation to the more scholarly IAST or Library of Calcutta Romanization. Thanks. I would really appreciate it if someone would give the Hindi for the Hindi riddles. Mar de Sin 20:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I will also later add the Urdu alphabet version of the Hindvi poetry, as that is what the source had originally. Mar de Sin 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Bollywood Song

Does anyone have any objection if we take out the bollywood song, and just retain the lyrics, translation and discussion of Zee Haal-e-Miskeen? --Sarabseth 02:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think a mutilated version of Amir's poetry by any wood should appear in this article in the first place.Hassanfarooqi 18:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Khusro was a Turk and spoke Turkish

his origin, self-perception and spoken languages do not seem to be adequately represented in the article. Here are a few sources that clarify the issue:

Dr. Iraj Bashiri. "Originally a Turk, Amir Khusrau spoke Persian fluently and was familiar with Arabic, Hindi, and Sanskrit."

See: , .

Amir Khusrau: Memorial Volume - Page 1, by AmД«r Khusraw DihlavД« - 1975 - 416 pages "Amir Khusrau was proud of his lineage as a "Turk-e-Hindustani", and tradition credits him with knowledge of Turkish, Arabic, Persian and the vernaculars of"

Amir Khusrau as a Genius - Page 9 by б№ўabДЃбёҐuddД«n К»AbdurraбёҐmДЃn - 1982 - 125 pages "Khwaja is believed to have said very often to Khusrau, "O Turk! I may get disgusted of my self but never of you". (Munis-u'l-Arwah, by Princess Jahan Ara, MSS, Shibli Academy, Khazinat-u'l-Asfiya"

The Case for Pakistan - Page 117 by M. Rafique Afzal - 1979 - 191 pages "Amir Khusrau (14th century), a Turk of mixed parentage and one of the greatest figures in the realm of Persian literature and poetry"

The BДЃgМІбє– O BahДЃr: Or, The Garden and the Spring - Page vii by Khusrau - 1852 - 251 pages "His grandfather, who bore the name of Turk, came to ... His son Amir Khusrau succeeded to the royal favour, and enjoyed the confidence and patronage of ..."

The Visva-bharati Quarterly - Page 157 by Visva-Bharati, Rabindranath Tagore, Hirendranath Datta, Sir Surendranath Tagore - 1923 "725 AH ), "the Indian Turk," stands as one of the leading figures whose appreciation of India, her sciences"

Marx, Great October, India, and the Future - Page 96 by Hirendranath Mukerjee - 1984 "in the 14th century, Amir Khusrau, court poet of the ... , a fine, many-sided genius in love with India (an 'Indian Turk' he called himself) looked about"

Islamic Culture - Page 219 by Islamic Cultural Board, Muhammad Asad, Academic and Cultural Publications Charitable Trust (Hyderabad, India), Marmaduke William Pickthall - 1927 "Amir Khusrau himself was the son of a Turk-ish father and a Rajput (Rawal) mother, and was born _Jn Patiala. He lost his father early, and his mother's"

Indian Literary Criticism: Theory and Interpretation - Page 92 by G. N. Devy - 2002 - 446 pages "... AMIR KHUSRAU Amir Khusrau (AD 1253-1325) was of Turkish origin;" --Weiszman 22:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

اَگر فِردؤس بر رُو-ائے زمین اَست،" ہمین اَست-او ہمین اَست-او ہمین اَست۔

Agar firdaus bar roo-e zameen ast, Hameen ast-o hameen ast-o hameen ast.

If there is paradise on face of the earth, It is this, it is this, it is this (Kashmir)

check: this couplet is thought to be due to mughal emperor shahjahaan and to refer to the valley of kashmir"

>>>>>>>>>>How Can it be due to Shah Jahan when khusrow lived in the 11th century???

source

To User:Weiszman. can you please write the source where he says he is proud to be hindustani-turk? and also the source where he speaks Turkish (what kind?)? Since you have the source, please use exact wording. One of the sources available I looked at does not mention anything about pride. --alidoostzadeh 19:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is from Google books:

Journal of the Regional Cultural Institute - Page 13 by Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī̊ - 1967 VIII Erdogan MERCIL Journal of the REGIONAL CULTURAL INSTITUTE Winter & Spring 1976 AMIR KHOSROW AND HIS PRIDE IN BEING A TURK ...

Amir Khusrau: Memorial Volume - Page 1 by Amīr Khusraw Dihlavī - 1975 - 416 pages Amir Khusrau was proud of his lineage as a "Turk-e-Hindustani", and tradition credits him with knowledge of Turkish, Arabic, Persian and the vernaculars of ... Snippet view - About this book Weiszman 19:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but the author of that article's is Turkish (his first name is Erdogan Mercill) and he is from Turkey. You need a neutral third party source. Or else there are afghan scholars who have many views which are not scholarly as well. --alidoostzadeh 19:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There are two sources, one by Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī (editor), and one a 1975 book of Amir Khusrau by the Indian Government. Both sources are major. Also, there are many Persian, Indian, Pakistani sources listed on the Misplaced Pages article about Amir Khusrau, which doesn't raise objections. Erdogan Mercil is Turkish, not obviously not Hindustani Turkish, and the latter were not of the same tribal origin as the Anatolian Turks who were Oghuz. And he is just one of the authors under the editorship of Iranian professor Muåssasah-i Farhangī-i Minṭaqagahī, and with the co-sponsorhsip of the Iranian government. So the source is balanced and favorable towards all the Muslim countries of the region. Don't forget Misplaced Pages's policy on NPOV and inclusion of all major sources reflecting different points of view. Weiszman 20:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The policy does not allow for nationalistic writing. You need multiple neutral sources to verify a statement. The source by Erdogan Mercil is not neutral. The second source does not even have an author (which is needed for proper citiation) but I would not be suprised to be the same author. Neither source says his native language was Turkish. Indeed I would probably think it was Indic language since he was born in India. Also you need a primary source about the languages he knew. thanks --alidoostzadeh 20:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sir there are no such requirements in Misplaced Pages about needing to have an author (hello, what about Britannica's articles and other encyclopedia's or journals like The Economist which often don't have any authors listed). Both sources are different, and neither of them is Turkish. In case of Erdogan Mercill he is not a Hindustani Turk and is not the editor of that book, which is an Iranian professor. So both sources are neutral and unbiased, and definitely not nationalist. Meanwhile, other soruces cover his knowledge of Turkish language. Weiszman 20:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Quick note: Misplaced Pages's policies are independent from Britannica --Rayis 20:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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