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April 11

French cartoon with redactions in English

• 1842 French version
• 1877 English version

I began an entry for the French parody Scènes de la vie privée et publique des animaux (1842) with caricatures by J. J. Grandville and read one commentary about the scene with ants which represents the British Empire. There are pictures of a box with "Opium" written and a sack with "I.I.G." - these two are blacked out in the English edition. "Opium" is obvious but what is "I.I.G."? Shyamal (talk) 06:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC) PS: Maybe "I.I.G." is just for "J.J.Grandville" as it also occurs here? Shyamal (talk) 07:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The article on Grandville mentions that he also used "J. I. I. Grandville" corresponding precisely to his actual initials; given the variations listed, I think personally that it wouldn't be surprising if indeed I. I. G. is just another way of expressing his signature. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The signature (bottom right in both versions) has only two initials, which may be read as 'I's or 'J's, but presumably are intended to be read as 'I I Grandville' (rather than 'J I...'). -- Verbarson  _edits 12:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Would 'PORRET' (bottom left) be the engraver? -- Verbarson  _edits 12:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Henri-Désiré Porret.  --Lambiam 02:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The illustration is already legibly signed "J. J. Grandville", like the others in the book. I cannot readily think of a reason why Grandville would have chosen, if the letters represents his initials, to add an additional conspicuous "${\displaystyle \mathbb {I{\cdot }I{\cdot }G{\cdot }} }$" to specifically this one. It seems, on the face of it, more likely to me that it signifies the content (impounded contraband?) of the thus-labeled sack, just like "${\displaystyle \mathbb {OPIUM} }$" on the box.  --Lambiam 15:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Au contraire; it appears to be a habit of Grandville to include his name or initials as part of the illustration.

• Initials IIG on the back of a chair
• Initials scrawled within the picture, though not on any object
• Surname written on the face of the clock

Perhaps he had a fear of the his signature being trimmed from the edge of reproductions of the drawing, or even omitted by the engraver? -- Verbarson  _edits 15:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow, thanks @Verbarson:, that settles it! Shyamal (talk) 10:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

This standard signature off to the side below shows that he did indeed on occasion use I. I. Grandville, so IIG is well within the scope of possible initials he may have used. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Similarly, in the illustration on the right, IIG is the listed signature on the bottom. I think this should confirm that the "IIG" shown in the original picture is indeed a signature. GalacticShoe (talk) 03:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I concede.  --Lambiam 15:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Similarly Michael Whelan's paintings often incorporate his monogram (a character in blackletter style that is ambiguous between 'm' and 'w') as a belt buckle or the like. Perhaps both do it because a marginal signature is likely to be cropped out. —Tamfang (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Terence Cuneo's paintings often include a trademark mouse. MinorProphet (talk) 02:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Judaism question.

1. 1 way for a person to lose their Jewishness is to convert to Christianity. My question is, are there any other ways a person can lose their Jewishness? Such as being an outstanding criminal. What if someone was not Jewish, but married into a Jewish family, and later divorced, do they lose their Jewishness? What about someone who married into a Jewish family, then deliberately eat pork, do they lose their Jewishness? I wonder if there are any famous cases where Jewish leaders voted on someone's Jewishness (perhaps maybe hundreds of years ago) and probably wouldn't be common today.

2. I guess I asked this question last time but don't recall getting an answer but if anyone knew who pushed for the idea that if a Jew converts to Christianity, they are no longer a Jew, or even when? This kind of movement could have happened by the 300s or 400s? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC).

First, if you have not already done so, please read our article: Who is a Jew?. It may address some of your questions. The short explanation is that there isn't one simple answer to who is and is not a Jew. This is because "Jew" is both a religious designation and an ethno/cultural designation. And there is a lot of debate among Jews as to who is and is not considered "Jewish". Blueboar (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Meh, that doesn't answer my question. My question is on exiting Judaism. From people that are already-established Jews. What you might be talking about are cases where Reform Jews consider someone a Jew but Orthodox Jews don't, but my question is still on exiting 1's status as a Jew. 170.76.231.166 (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC).

There's an old story about a non-practicing Jew walking with a hunchbacked individual. The first one says, "Did you know I used to be Jewish?" The second one says, "Did you know I used to be hunchbacked?" <-Baseball Bugs carrots-> 18:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Do read these anecdotes . It took a few seconds for what happened in Charlie Taylor's answer (no. 5) to sink in. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:195B:FE87:8B0:5CE2 (talk) 08:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

But could they share the Smoky Bacon flavour (but guaranteed Vegan) crisps? -- Verbarson  _edits 12:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Your first assumption is already wrong. See Jews for Jesus, or the many second- or third generation Christians of jewish descent killed by the Nazis. As written by Blueboar, Jewishness is not just a religion. There are plenty of famous Jewish atheists, from Isaac Asimov to Marvin Minsky and Leon Trotsky. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

"Messianic Jews" are viewed by many religious Jews as nasty Christian prosyletizers who maintain a deceptive pretense of being Jews in order to undermine the religion of actual real Jews. There was a big stink connected to Yahoo in its early days (when it was mainly a web directory), when it briefly insisted on classifying Messianic Jews under Judaism, while a united front of just about every significant Jewish group insisted that not be done. Such people would view lapsed or non-practicing ethnic Jews such as Asimov quite differently from proclaimed Messianic Jews. AnonMoos (talk) 21:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course. These are two different examples for people who are still considered Jewish, but don't follow Rabbinic Judaism as a religion. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Messianic Jews are NOT considered Jews by the great majority of Jews who take their religion seriously, as I explained above. AnonMoos (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, let's see if we can't agree. Messianic Judaism is, despite its name, a Christian sect (at least that's a near-consensus opinion). And yes, many adherents of that sect are not Jews. But the foundation was created by converted Jews, and many members are indeed converted Jews, despite the conversion. Their status as Jews or non-Jews does not hinge on them being adherents to Judaism or Evangelical Christianity, because it is (also) an ethnic category. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Jews who take their religion seriously are often willing to accept the ethnic Jewish status of non-practising or lapsed or even atheist Jews UNLESS THEY ADOPT A NON-JEWISH RELIGION, which is the much the same thing as renouncing any presumption to Jewish ethnic identity in their eyes. It may seem odd that many religious Jews would find it easier to accept a Jewish atheist than a Jewish Christian, but that's in fact the case. Ask Tevye about the marriages of his second and third daughters (in the 1971 movie)... AnonMoos (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

170.76.231.162, the above respondents make good points, but assuming you are asking about Judaism just as a religion, in the eyes of traditional Judaism, nothing makes a person "lose their Jewishness" as you put it, so your first assumption about converting to Christianity is incorrect. A Jew who murders someone while munching on a pork sausage with cheese on Yom Kippur is still a Jew, albeit an appalling one. Apostasy from Judaism is something that has happened countless times through the millennia - Judaism is a very old religion, with some pretty good source material - it was an old story before Christianity even began, see for example Ahab, who was a pretty loathsome character, even if you don't care about religion, and probably lived in the 9th century BCE (see Kurkh Monoliths). But he was still a Jew. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Source here: Haderech, Pesach inspired 5784 (2024):

"It is noteworthy that even among those who are distant from religious observance, almost everyone participates in religious services on these two nights. Throughout the western world and LARSY TRA , the polls reflect this reality. This trend is not one limited to our generation, it was true in the past also. Historically, those who were forcibly baptised in Spain and acted like Christians joined their Jewish brethren on these two nights."

The writer says "On RDS night, we eat and drink; on RVPIK MVY (day of atonement) we fast." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23A8:4C31:5901:CE8:D91C:B1AF:F3C7 (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

April 12

Cyberbully case

I remember reading about a case about cyberbullying on Misplaced Pages, but now, I forgot the perpetrator's name. It was a very famous case in UK. What's his name? He's a computer scientist living in UK. He has harassed many women online. It took law enforcement many years to catch him. He was sentenced to around 20-30 years. Thanks! 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:5D61:6880:607E:9862 (talk) 11:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Matthew Hardy (stalker). 2A00:23D0:482:5E01:C5A6:5743:7A53:A342 (talk) 12:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

On appeal, Hardy (unemployed, AFAICT not a computer scientist) got only eight years in the slammer. Another famous (and sad) case is that of Amanda Todd. The perpetrator was sentenced in Canada to 13 years in prison, to be sat out in the Netherlands. In what is somehow not a famous case, a longer sentence (17 years) was dealt to cyberbullying TikToker Lorenzo Arana from Island Park, New York.  --Lambiam 15:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

User:Lambiam Matthew Hardy (stalker) is probably not the person I'm looking for. I remember distinctively he is a computer scientist and very intelligent. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:9488:F560:901D:9673 (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

For clarity are specifically referring a case prosecuted in the UK? If so I think your memory could be faulty. AFAIK, 20-30 years is an extremely long prison sentence for someone in the UK. I have doubts it would be handed out to someone for cyberbullying unless perhaps it involved a lot of underage victims and perhaps blackmailing them akin to the Amanda Todd case or there was some other extreme aggravating factor allowing it to be prosecuted as more than simply bullying. I'd note that the Matthew Hardy case, was said to be the longest sentence for cyberstalking handed out in the UK. While that might be cyberstalking not cyberbullying, if anything that would seem to involve a longer sentence Nil Einne (talk) 04:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Royal baccarat scandal

I’m confused by this article. It says gambling on Baccarat was illegal at the time of the scandal, but the participants in the all-important game seem to have been playing for money. Yet the scandal was about cheating rather than breaking the law. So were they breaking the law or not, and if not, how were they not breaking it? Dronebogus (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

In response to someone raising the precedent that baccarat was illegal, the Home Secretary (Henry Matthews) pointed out to the House of Commons on 26 February 1891 that the case in Jenks v. Turpin "was played in a house kept for playing at that game, and that was rendered illegal by statute. The case is familiar to the Law Officers". The jurist Sir James Stephen in an article in the July issue of The Nineteenth Century seemed to think the game was legal as it was played in private and not in a house kept for the purpose. —Simon Harley (Talk). 15:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

That’s helpful. I think the article needs to clear that up, especially since it seems to imply that playing for money is itself the illegal thing. Dronebogus (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

April 13

Pius XII and Mussolini

It would have been said by Pius XII about Mussolini in 1952 but I had found no reliable sources, only veterans' and propaganda websites. Today, however, I found it in a book by Arrigo Petacco (more a journalist than a true historian in fact), L'uomo della Provvidenza, Mondadori, 2004, page 9. This is a secondary source because the primary source is not cited. There is a scant bibliography at the end of the book.-- Carnby (talk) 06:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a question? Clearly that source cannot be trusted. Thousands of quotes are attributed to famous people with no citations, and I definitely would not trust them. Shantavira| 08:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I would ask whether a more reliable source about this quote exists or it should be considered definitely spurious.-- Carnby (talk) 08:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Here are two possible explanations for the apparent lack of reliable sources for this alleged statement.

1. Pacelli did not say this, or, if he did, it was not recorded in a traceable form.
2. There is a ginormous conspiracy, probably directed by the Vatican, to keep the information hidden from the faithful by making accessible sources disappear.

Take your pick. Occam's razor may apply. Apart from that, it might be somewhat believable if Pacelli had said something like this in 1932, when Mussolini had reconciled with Pius XI, but in 1952, praising the leader of a government that had already proved itself manifestly antisemitic when Pacelli ascended to the papacy? Also consider that Mussolini was an avowed atheist, known for his caustic attacks of Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular – temporarily suspended in the early 1930s but then resumed.  --Lambiam 13:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

April 15

Which economic event do the recent tech layoffs fall under?

As you're probably aware, there have been many layoffs in the tech industry in the past year. It's my understanding this is the result of excessive hiring during the pandemic. However, there seems to be little commentary about this on Misplaced Pages. I did find some articles related to recent economic events, but they don't seem to be directly related to the layoffs:

• Great Resignation is about people quitting voluntarily
• 2023–2024 video game industry layoffs is specific to video game companies. Someone on the talk page suggested expanding the article to cover tech layoffs in general, but discussion seems to have stopped
• COVID-19 recession seems to be about a past recession that ended in late 2022
• Financial market impact of the COVID-19 pandemic only covers up to August 2020
• 2021–2023 inflation surge, 2022 stock market decline and 2023 United States banking crisis don't seem to talk much about unemployment

Are these layoffs part of any of the above events? Or are they not considered notable enough for there to be an article about them? Ixfd64 (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Strictly, Misplaced Pages doesn't do 'commentary', or draw its own conclusions, but only summarises what has already been published in Reliable sources.

If there are several independent pieces in recognised news publications, economic journals and the like specifically discussing these tech layoffs, a Misplaced Pages article about them could be created using those sources. It is the existence of substantial source material that makes something 'notable' in the Misplaced Pages sense. As a long-term editor, you likely know all this already.

Of course, a volunteer editor would have to actually do the work of finding these sources and drafting the article. Any takers? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 23:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I obviously meant sourced commentary. At least it's a term we often use in FfD discussions on whether a non-free image may be used as fair use. Ixfd64 (talk) 04:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

What layoffs? That's my attempt at a humorous way of suggesting that if you can find a reliable source describing at least a fair chunk of those layoffs, it could guide us in and how to describe them here on Misplaced Pages. HiLo48 (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

TechCrunch has a comprehensive list of them. Are they considered notable enough? Ixfd64 (talk) 05:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The other day I saw a YouTube video that related these layoffs to the productivity-enhancing use of LLMs. There may be reliable sources making the same connection.  --Lambiam 04:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Also look into whether tech companies lay-off employees because they want to increase the amount of employees that know artificial intelligence. 66.99.15.162 (talk) 19:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC).

April 16

What is the average increase in grocery prices, cost of living, etc. in Ontario, Canada from April 2022 to today?

I left Toronto in April 2022 to go to university in China, but I miss my home city, and I want to return, but I'm not sure how much more expensive living has become, and I want to get a more WP:NPOV view on the topic and don't want to read one-sided, biased rants on Reddit about Loblaws and Galen Weston. Could someone please cite WP:RS statistics of how much grocery prices, cost of living, etc. have increased since I left? I hope my home country is still the way I remember it and hasn't gotten downhill too much since I left. I want to have something to make me look forward to returning. Félix An (talk) 08:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Statistics Canada publishes this sort of information on its Consumer price index portal. I think the reports are mainly annual but you can look at the tables or multiply 2 years. I think Consumer Price Index, monthly, not seasonally adjusted (Table: 18-10-0004-01) has the data you want but it's being updated today. The one year change in Ontario was 2.4% in February. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

and 5.1% in Feb 2023 for a two year total of 7.6%. The StatCan website will also surely have indices of wage growth so you can see how wages have risen by comparison. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Average weekly earnings seem to have increased by 6.7% over the two-year period Jan 2022-Jan 2024 (Feb 2024 figures are not available). Of course, how closely these averages reflect what you'd experience depends what sector you work in and what you spend you money on. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

April 17

Au Bon Pain lawsuit

Was Au Bon Pain ever actually involved in a lawsuit for an impractically large sum of money, or was that just a story conjured, distorted or exaggerated by unreliable sources to grab people's attention? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 14:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

A simple websearch on "Au Bon Pain lawsuit" gives a plethora of hits, many from reliable sources, including Time magazine, here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 16:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The lawsuit was actually filed, in the form of a handwritten complaint by a pauper plaintiff without a lawyer. The court dismissed the case on its own motion as lacking any arguable basis in law or in fact. Purisma v. New York City Transit Authority, No. 14-cv-2755 (S.D.N.Y. June 9, 2014). John M Baker (talk) 03:40, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

April 18

About factional fighting within the party

Are there any cases in history where faction A of a political party has deliberately nominated someone from faction B to stand in an election that it expects to lose, in order to damage the reputation of faction B? What are some of the cases where this strategy succeeded or failed? PCpasd (talk) 02:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Hard to answer. In most countries (but, not Japan), factions are called something else — interest groups, caucuses, etc — so identifying when it is an actual faction (no clear definition covers more than one country), or just a bunch of spoilsports isn’t easy.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 05:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Not exactly your scenario, but in the internal elections for leadership of the Conservative Party (UK), the election process could be triggered by a candidate who had no chance of winning, known as a "stalking horse", so that the actual challenger could enter the process without seeming to be disloyal (the election procedure has since changed to prevent this tactic). See Leadership elections: Conservative Party (p. 30). Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Or taking a broader interpretation of your question, the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum was intended to silence anti-EU sentiment within the Consrvative Party. Prime Minister David Cameron fully expected that the proposal to leave the EU would be easily defeated, but it wasn't and he resigned. Alansplodge (talk) 10:56, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

April 19

FRF and USD exchange rate, 1922

According to Michelin Guide:

Michelin decided to charge a price for the guide, which was about 750 francs or US$2.15 in 1922.

(The source is dead, and the archive page didn't work for some reason.) What was the exchange rate during this period? I highly doubt the almost-350-per-$1 rate claimed here, since the highest denomination of current French postage stamps was 2F — that's ½¢ US if the exchange rate is right, which would make the lower denominations of stamps (all the way down to 1c) utterly impractical. Would it perhaps be 7,50F = $2.15, or about 3,50F = $1? Nyttend (talk) 04:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The Federal Reserve Bulletin from 1914 to the modern day can be found online at FRASER, and may be of interest (pun only semi-intended.) Here's the section for the 1920s. While all the economic jargon escapes me, I imagine there might be something related to exchange rates with the franc in there. GalacticShoe (talk) 05:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Of especial relevance methinks, there are sections on foreign exchange rates in each of the 1922 bulletins I've looked through. The December 1922 bulletin in particular has a graph indicating that the exchange rate with the franc hovered between 30-50% of par, which is listed above as 19.3. I am unsure as to what units these are. If it's F/$, then at 30-50% that's between 5-10 F/$, which is off from 3.5. If the units are $/F then that's between 0.1-0.2 F/$ which still is off from any number resembling 3.5. GalacticShoe (talk) 05:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

From our article French franc: "After two centuries of inflation, it was redenominated in 1960, with each new franc (NF) being worth 100 old francs." So a 2 NF postage stamp would have been a 200 F stamp before redenomination. The article has a graph of the value of the old French franc in 2007 Euros for the period from 1907 to 1960, equating the value of the 1922 franc with 1 euro. Charging the equivalent of 750 euro for the guide would have been excessive also in 1922. A chart here equates one franc in 1922 with 8 to 9 US dollar cents, which makes US$2.15 in 1922 more like 25 francs.  --Lambiam 06:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Here we have a reliable contemporary source giving the price as 7 francs.  --Lambiam 09:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Bookmark this website which gives you everything . 2A02:C7B:100:AA00:D9ED:5C02:4C7B:F3D7 (talk) 10:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I just checked the Federal Reserve Bulletin for January 1922. On page 114 the "Par of exchange" is given as "19.30" (confirming Lambiam) and the "Average for December" is 7.8416. On the next page is the graph Lambiam describes, which shows that in December the French franc traded at 40% of par. 2A02:C7B:100:AA00:D9ED:5C02:4C7B:F3D7 (talk) 11:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The French Franc lost nearly 35% of its value against the US dollar during 1922 (from highest monthly average rate to lowest), from 10.8 per US$1 in April to 14.6 in November. That should be reason enough to adjust a dollar price. <https://canvasresources-prod.le.unimelb.edu.au/projects/CURRENCY_CALC/>DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

April 20

"The Paris disaster"

It is mentioned in a poem of the same name by Annie Curwen, published in 1899 (on wikisource, on s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/133 and s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/134).

I have no idea what it is, and was not able to make it correspond to anything.

If it helps, the "Ushant" in the poem is a reference to the SS Drummond Castle and its sinking off that island (also a poem about that in the same collection, s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/63 and s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/64)

Could someone find what it is? — Alien333 (talk) 17:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"fiery cross" and "blackened ashes" suggest a fire. I've found Bazar_de_la_Charité#Fire_of_1897 with 126 dead. Not sure whether we can prove that this is the one that the poem is about. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems the most likely candidate - it was widely reported in the Anglophone press as "The Paris Disaster" - see this Australian example, but I found the same usage in newspapers from New York, Hong Kong, New Zealand and Wales. I couldn't find any other event remotely comparable in that timeframe. Alansplodge (talk) 21:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The Bazar de la Charité fire was the first thing that popped in my mind as well when I read the question. It was a huge story at the time, not just because of the number of dead, but also because the majority were well-to-do society ladies. Xuxl (talk) 13:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, appears to be solved. Thanks to everyone! — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 12:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

April 21

Early human migration

a simple reference for human migration 180.150.255.58 (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You could start with Early human migrations. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

There is also simple:Early human migrations.  --Lambiam 18:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Whatsit

Somewhat common in the 13th century, Christian churches had an attached bin for human bones of village ancestors. I think it was called "char-something". Anybody know what it is (not an ossuary)? -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Charnel house --Viennese Waltz 19:10, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

That's it -- thanks! --136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

April 23

Saint George's body rediscovered!

The following passage comes from Robert Graves' Lars Porsena, or the Future of Swearing and Improper Language (1927) pp. 6–7:

It has been stated with detail and persistence that in the late summer of 1918 an Australian mounted unit sensationally rediscovered the actual bones of St George – not George of Cappadocia but the other one who slew the Dragon: they were brought to light by the explosion of a shell in the vault of a ruined church. The officer in command sent a cable to the Dean and Chapter of Westminster inviting them to house the holy relics. After some delay, the Dean and Chapter formally regretted the serious over-crowding of their columns; for, of course, though they could not very well mention it, St George was a bloody German. So the saint was lost again by the disgusted Australians, this time beyond rescue. Or so one version of the story has it. The other version, more attractive if less authenticated, suggests that the Dean relented later and permitted the relics to be smuggled into the Abbey under the thin disguise of The Unknown Warrior, thereby avoiding offence to anti-Popish feeling.

Can anyone find any evidence that this bizarre story really was going the rounds in 1918, a symptom perhaps of war hysteria like the Angels of Mons, or did Graves make the whole thing up? He had a very lively sense of humour in his earlier days, as the whole of Lars Porsena shows. Also, why was St George a bloody German? --Antiquary (talk) 10:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The version Graves tells in Occupation Writer has the grave being discovered in Palestine, and the reason for his non-translation being that it would require ceremonies too Popish for the century, and tacit admission of the dragon myth. He doesn't mention the Unknown Warrior. See here. DuncanHill (talk) 10:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if you're aware, but Australians have long a reputation for, um, making up stories; pulling your leg; telling porkies. I suspect those bloody Australians were just telling a Furphy. HiLo48 (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe that. They were probably often wrongly understood by unattentive listeners, who would have been the ones writing down the anecdote. --Askedonty (talk) 11:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I've found it, Palestine Exploration Quarterly October 1917, 'Notes and News', page 150 has the following:

The Daily Telegraph of the 23rd August contained a lengthy description by Mr. W. T. Massey of the discovery by the British forces of a richly-paved Christian church. The discovery was made by the Australians at Shellal, between Beersheba and Khan Yunus, and therefore on the main road from Jerusalem to Egypt. The keenest interest was aroused among the men themselves, and the utmost care was taken to safeguard it. The work was done under the direction of the Rev. W. Maitland Woods, senior chaplain (Church of England) of the Anzac and Mounted Division, and the party were often subject to the unwelcome attentions of the enemy's guns and suspicious aeroplanes. A fragmentary inscription relates that "this temple with spacious--(? foundations) was built by our most holy--(? bishop) and most pious George--in the year 622 according to--(? the era of) Gaza." Under the inscription were found the bones of the saint; his identity is uncertain, and the original suggestion that the founder was St. George himself does not bear investigation. The whole mosaic consisted of some 8,000 pieces of mosaic, of which not one stone was lost; and one of the features of Mr. Massey's account is the description of the careful and ingenious methods by which, in the midst of all the military preparations, this piece of archaeological labour was effectively completed. Some further account of the discovery may be anticipated later. It may be added that a letter in the following issue of The Daily Telegraph recalled the fact that George is among the commonest and most beloved of names in Eastern Christendom, thus adding to the other objections against the identity of the buried saint; but "when our troops have advanced another forty miles northwards towards Lydda they may come, perhaps, within the very patrimony of the soldier patron of England and of many other countries."

Which I rather think would be the genesis of Graves's yarn. DuncanHill (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

And more info here, here, and here. Search for Shellal + St George, or Shellal Mosaic and you'll find lots more. DuncanHill (talk) 11:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that has to be it, you've solved a mystery I've vaguely wondered about for decades. It's a shame that the body turns out not to have been St George's, but hardly unexpected. I'm still wondering what Graves' German reference means though. --Antiquary (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

George is one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers, popular amongst German RCs, and is sometimes claimed as Germany's patron saint. There's a gert statue of him in Berlin. DuncanHill (talk) 12:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

And Robert von Ranke Graves would have known that. Thanks, and happy St George's Day! --Antiquary (talk) 12:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It might have been more interesting if they had found the bones of the dragon alongside. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

What evidence can establish that a find is of the remains of the one and only true George of Lydda? Some dragon bones buried alongside the holy man?  --Lambiam 13:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

April 24

Ottoman Armenian flag

The article on Ottoman flags shows distinct civil ensigns for Latins, Jews, Muslims and Greeks (with black, yellow, green and blue stripes, respectively) used through the 18th century; is there any record of one for Armenians or other Oriental Orthodox? 71.126.57.87 (talk) 05:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Not on the Flag of Armenia article. If there was no significant Armenian nautical commerce, then the Ottomans would not have perceived a need for such a flag. AnonMoos (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Note that all our coverage of these flags is entirely unsourced at the moment (on the image files themselves as well as on all the pages where they are used), so we can't really safely assume there even was such a thing as these ensigns in the first place. A pointer can be found on the fotw.info website to some 19th-century flag compendium listing some of them (though not the Jewish one), and I've seen a few contemporary 18th-century illustrations that seem to confirm the use of the Greek (red-and-blue) one at least. No information on how far back the existence of these flags can be traced - the claim that they are valid for the entire time of the Ottoman Empire since 1452 seems quite dubious. I haven't seen anything about other Ottoman nationalities such as the Armenians either. Fut.Perf. su 10:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Some info on these two FOTW pages (which don't 100% agree with each other): Greece under the Ottomans, Ottoman empire... -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

If Tesla shareholders re-approve Elon Musk's compensation package will he pay the original California taxes or now the 0% Texas tax?

Title Tikaboo (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

We din’t offer legal opinions. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Info on statistical research papers / essays about blocking of Misplaced Pages users?

Looking for information on statistical research papers / essays about blocking of Misplaced Pages users in general, category wise and in polarized / contentious topic areas.

Just contemplating to include such information, while mentoring, to convince users to encourage them in learning constructive editing practices and deter them from attraction of destructive editing practices. Bookku (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

You could look through the archives of the Misplaced Pages Signpost's "Recent Research" summaries. There doesn't seem to be an overall listing of all "Recent Research" articles, that I can find... AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

COMPETES Act and negative news about China

A questions to everybody who is educated about the American law:
Is there any fact which preclude that a bill like the COMPETES Act allowed the gouverment to spend 500 million dollars on media. Would it be allowed by the US constitution that the gouverment spends money on media which makes the a certain news?
I think, maybe it would be unconstitutional or something.
I just look for information how debunk the claim and starts to ask myself. 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:410D:99D9:F99:A812 (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

There's very little about it on Misplaced Pages (and of course it has nothing to do with China), but during much of the 19th century, U.S. administrations subsidized newspapers they favored (i.e. with a congenial political tendency in their coverage) by awarding them government printing contracts. At various times Francis Preston Blair and John Weiss Forney ran newspapers with lucrative federal printing contracts. AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The United States directly operates a news network from the federal budget, the Voice of America. —Amble (talk) 04:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

From that article: "As of 2022, VOA had a weekly worldwide audience of approximately 326 million (up from 237 million in 2016) and employed 961 staff with an annual budget of $267.5 million", so that accounts for about half the $500m on its own.

Of course, we have no way of knowing how much is spent by the CIA and other 'black operations' for similar purposes, but it won't be negligible.

The fact that these expenditures are known or reasonably presumed suggests (though does not prove) that there can't be a Constitutional reason preventing them, or someone would have called "foul" before now. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 04:44, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

April 25

Outfit associated with voters of British parties

Hello,

what kind of outfit is typical with voters of specific British poltical parties respectively?

Kind regards Sarcelles (talk) 05:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

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