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The origin of the singer

Eden was born in Israel, moved to Russia and returned to Israel. In my opinion, it should be written that she is Israeli and not Russian-Israeli. If we also refer to Eden's words, she considers herself Israeli and nothing else. KatzeChat (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

She was born in Israel and she was also partly raised in Israel and she has an Israeli passport.

Many Israelis parents aren't from Israel but nobody is writing that we are from Poland or Germany or Romania or Iraq or Iran or North Africa.

Also her parents are from Latvia and Ukraine not from Russia. 2A0E:427:1CA7:0:4570:D2CE:E849:6D76 (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Origin of singer is Israel. 97.113.214.203 (talk) 16:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

please read the previous discussion and provide arguments and sources to support your claims.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

here is one of many links to an artist article without a meaningless and unhelpful "origin" destination. Remove it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Lars_Ulrich FerranValls (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Artist's Nationality

If someone temporarily relocating to other country, and studying in an International school, does it give him/her another nationality although she/he has no connection to the country except temporarily living there for 5 years without citizenship? אלעד נעמתי (talk) 13:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@אלעד נעמתי: The issue here is you are not being truthful to the description of Golan's situation. Regardless of how long Golan resided in Russia (your claim that it was just five years is also untrue, as the article itself says she lived there for 13 years), her education, or her citizenship, Golan began her career by participating in Russian television programs, attempted to represent Russia in an international event, and did not relocate to Israel until 7 years after beginning her professional music career (in Russia). Per WP:MOS/LEAD, the lead should reference the "context" of the subject of the article, but this is not defined by simple citizenship or anything of the like, and Golan's Russian background is clearly relevant as it was the central location of her career up until 2022. To provide an example, Rina Sawayama mentions both Japanese and British nationalities in the lede as she holds solely Japanese citizenship but has a career based in the United Kingdom, and both nationalities were equally relevant to her context as an individual regardless of her citizenship status. All this points to Golan being properly cited as a Russian-Israeli individual. To me, the reluctance to identify Golan as Russian purely stems from her birth in Israel and the fact she is representing Israel at an event, but that does not outweigh the evidence pointing to Russian-Israeli being the proper identifier. { } 02:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You can't decide she's Russian if she didn't say she is. you don't know her Zapmufins (talk) 04:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Jjj1238 is correct. Citizenship has nothing to do with this. She started her career as a Russian singer in Russia, representing Russia at music competitions. She spent most of her childhood in Russia (the country both her parents hailed from as well) and just recently moved to Israel, after a years-long career as a singer in Russia. She is clearly Russian-Israeli, not just Israeli. --Tataral (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

If you say that Eden Golan is Russian why do you write that Bryan Adams is Canadian.

He lived most of his youth outside of Canada just like Eden, due to his parents career. 2A0E:427:1CA7:0:4570:D2CE:E849:6D76 (talk) 16:05, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Delete her origin

Her origin can't be Russian if she was born in israel and the descents of her parents are not Russian Zapmufins (talk) 04:18, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@Zapmufins The article is sufficiently clear that her career began while she was living in Moscow. In that regard, her origin—where she started her career—is Russia. —C.Fred (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That is not the meaning of origin, this is not where she's from Zapmufins (talk) 07:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

and yeah those details about where she started her career are clear so why lie that that's where she also originates from as a person Zapmufins (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Per Template:Infobox musical artist, The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth). Moscow is accurate. ser! 10:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

a career ? It’s just a singing competition. No body knew her and this is not what origin means, should people guess what it means? And once again someone charged her nationality to Russian israel even though she’s not Russian. It’s really funny the vandalizers locked this page Zapmufins (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The first references in the article to professional singing activity -- not explicitly for kids/amateurs -- are Israeli ones. The article does not demonstrate a career origin in Russia. 78.80.172.184 (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Both her parents are originally from the Soviet Union, who also chose to return to their native Russia with their children when she was very young. She grew up mostly in Russia and she was active as a Russian singer for many years, also representing Russia at music competitions, before moving to Israel only two years ago. If anything, she is far more Russian than Israeli, but Russian-Israeli seems like a fair compromise. --Tataral (talk) 21:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You’re going to be reported as a crazy Russian nationalist. She’s not Russian 83.130.42.7 (talk) 02:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Please focus on the content, not the contributors. Solid reasons, backed up in Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, have been given for why Golan should be identified as Russian or part-Russian. —C.Fred (talk) 13:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Her father is from Latvia and her mother is from Ukraine. Neither are part of Russia, yes they were part of its predecessor state, the Soviet Union, but that was before she was born. It's unclear whether her parents held Russian citizenship. To me the most relevant factor is if she holds Russian citizenship. RM (Be my friend) 18:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That is not accurate. Her grandfather Yuri lived and worked in Moscow during the Cold War. It seems evident that at least one of her parents would have lived (been born, grown up) there too. Sources mention family roots in what is now the sovereign states of Latvia and Ukraine, but that was long before she was born. Both were part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, and part of the Soviet Union when her family emigrated from the Soviet Union to Israel. Russia considers itself as the successor state of the Soviet Union. Perhaps she has some great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents from Latvia and Ukraine in what was then the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, but that doesn't change anything. Her parents chose to return to Moscow, Russia, not Latvia. She spent 13 years, most of her childhood in Moscow, Russia, not Latvia. For all practical purposes she is a Russian singer who moved to Israel two years ago and who has just gotten noticed as a singer in Israel, after a years-long career in Russia. --Tataral (talk) 14:46, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

In this interview in Hewbrew Golan claims that she did feel russian while living in russia... (I user Google Translate to read the interview). So that Misplaced Pages now claims she is fully russsian-Israeli when we have no idea if she or her parents ever had russian passports is truly not correctly following Misplaced Pages guidelines. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I just changed the lead to "Israeli singer who grew up in Russia" since we are now only truly sure of that. Hopefully future interviews will share more light on her early life and nationally. Although she is more likely to be questioned about the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your conclusion RM. But that her father was born in what is now independent Latvia and her mother was born in what is now independent Ukraine tells me nothing.... Her parents were born when both Latvia and Ukraine were part of the Soviet Union and it is very possible they referred to themselves as Soviet Jews or russian Jews as at the time of their youth that was common. They might still refer to themselves as Soviet Jews or russian Jews today... Here parents might felt that they were Soviet people who very likely never had Latvian citizenship nor Ukrainian citizens and if her mother had some sympathy for Ukrainian nationalism she probably would have prevented her daughter to perform in 2016 in illegal russian occupied (Ukrainian territory) Crimea. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:04, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence that her parents were born in Latvia or Ukraine (then-Soviet Union). Considering how her grandfather Yuri studied, worked and lived in Moscow, it seems highly unrealistic. At least one of her parents must have had a connection to Moscow, likely being born or at least raised there. Her parents also chose to return to Moscow in the 2000s. --Tataral (talk) 14:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that there are no sources confirming the origin of her parents (I'm not sure how Latvian-Jewish and Ukrainian-Jewish made its way in there, I am removing it now), a grandfather working and living in Moscow during the time of the Soviet Union would not be out of the ordinary for someone from one of the other Soviet republics. It was still one country after all, and many people (especially Jews) from other republics were Russian-speaking on either a native or L2 basis. Also regardless of her parents' place of birth, their origins could have still come from Latvia/Ukraine. { } 15:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Change origin

Why does it say Russian if her parents are not Russian? I didn’t know living in Russia for a few years will make you Russian. She was born in Israel, she’s an Israeli citizen, and she feels Israeli. She’s an Israeli singer, not Russian. 2600:1700:400D:F400:D8C1:72D7:8A2E:690A (talk) 16:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

She began her career in Moscow, per Template:Infobox musical artist, origin is for "The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where the individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth)." Her origin is Moscow. Your claim that her parents "are not Russian" is also misleading at best as both are from the former USSR and her grandfather lived and worked in Moscow. { } 16:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

That’s ridiculous. Eden is an Israeli, wherever she started her career doesn’t change her ethnicity. Just like Rihanna isn’t an American though she started her career in the US. She Barbadian.

Her parents are Ukrainian and Latvian. People from the former USSR are not necessarily Russian. Even the Russian page states she’s an Israeli singer. You are very bias. 2600:1700:400D:F400:D8C1:72D7:8A2E:690A (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Where was Bob Dylan born? And where did he begin his career?

Answer 1: Dulith, Minnesota.

Answer 2: New York City.

Go check his Misplaced Pages page, see what the Misplaced Pages editors have decided is the correct information.

Can we stop acting like we aren’t creating double standards for Jews? Like there isn’t a profound problem of antisemitism among Misplaced Pages editors and moderators? It’s disgusting and shameful. KronosAlight (talk) 22:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I am Barak. Most of my edits are in the Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Golan's mother called me. She told me that her daughter, Eden, was born and raised as an Israeli. She is not Russian. Her parents are Russian, but she isn’t. Barak a (talk) 15:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid we can't use off-wiki information as confirmation, but I'll wait for others more in-the-know than me in terms of the guidance on what terminology to use in the lede. ser! 18:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

She was born in Israel! Her parents are from Ukraine and Latvia! There is no Russia here, although she lived in Moscow. Barak a (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Barak a: This is not the Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Here, per WP:V, All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material..

@Ser!: Per Gil Mishali's (he) article on Keshet Media Group's Mako (website), Golan's parents are of Ukrainian and Latvian origin.

CLalgo, So give me a proof that she is Russian. You wrote that her parents are from Ukraine and Latvia. There is no Russian roots in her family. Barak a (talk) 15:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Barak a: I didn't claim Golan is Russian and under no obligation to provide proof of that. You've claimed that Golan's parents are from Ukraine and Latvia and I've provided an article stating this fact, following WP:V. Unlike the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, here every statement must be verifiable. And no, WP:BECAUSEISAIDSO isn't a reliable source. I was on your side in this discussion, but please follow the WP:TALK guidelines. CLalgo (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

CLalgo, here is your source: 1. In this article Eden claims that she is not Russian, and she is a proud Israeli woman. Now, you can change this article. "I'm not Russian and not part of them, I'm an Israeli". Barak a (talk) 16:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I provided the source in order to build Consensus for such an edit. CLalgo (talk) 09:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I read that article, sadly I don't speak Hebrew so it was machine translated. I couldn't find the sentence that says "I'm not Russian and not part of them, I'm an Israeli". The closest I could find was:

חלק כותבים שאני לא ישראלית מספיק, שאני רוסייה וכל מיני דברים כאלה, אבל אני הכי ישראלית שיש.

Which google translate turned into:

Some write that I'm not Israeli enough, that I'm Russian and all kinds of things like that, but I'm the most Israeli there is.

Which doesn't necessarily disprove what was written. Could you give the exact quote in the original language, since machine translations aren't always the best.

Speederzzz (talk) 09:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz: The Hebrew quote is:

"אפילו עם השם שלי תמיד הייתה לאנשים בעיה. זה השם הכי ישראלי. אולי אם היו קוראים לי מאשה היו מתייחסים אלי אחרת, אבל תמיד היה את הקטע הזה שאני 'עדן גולן', אני לא רוסייה ואני לא חלק מהם, אני ישראלית. הייתי זרה שם. האנטישמיות הגבירה את החשק לחזור לישראל".

That machine translates to:

"Even with my name, people always had a problem. It's the most Israeli name. Maybe if they called me Masha they would treat me differently, but there was always this part that I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was It's foreign there. Anti-Semitism increased the desire to return to Israel."

CLalgo (talk) 10:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks!

Speederzzz (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks CLalgo. Now, we can change it? I don't know the rules in the English Misplaced Pages. Barak a (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, none of this is relevant. Her career began in Russia, she attempted to represent Russia at an international event, she lived in Russia for the majority of her life, that is the basis of inclusion, not a comment saying she identifies as Israeli in the aftermath of being chosen to represent Israel at an international event. Nobody is calling her a "Russian singer," but she should not be called an "Israeli singer" either --- she is both. I am sensing a lot of nationalist editing which does not adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy that all editors maintain a neutral point of view. { } 21:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you. I think that we should write the article like this: Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia. Just like you said, she is not Russian, she just started her career there. And just for your knowledge, the article I shared above was written before she won the israeli selection. Barak a (talk) 21:57, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I also said she is not Israeli, she is Russian-Israeli. The current layout correctly articulates the situation and is in line with Misplaced Pages policies. { } 21:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Jjj1238, But she said by herself that she is not Russian (before ahe even selected to represent Israel in the Eurovision Song Contect 2024). You can't write that she is Russian. I think that what I suggested is an adequate solution for this issue. In this talk page only you disagree. @CLalgo and @Speederzzz agree with me. Barak a (talk) 22:03, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

This discussion was not just initiated on March 3. Scroll up on the talk page and you will see it has been discussed two other times and both times ended with the status quo remaining. It is a similar situation as Rina Sawayama, choosing to erase Golan's Russian background conflicts with anti-nationalist editing guidelines which including promoting ideas that "Famous person is or is not a member of group." From my perspective, it appears that several users are attempting to erase Golan's Russian background because of Israeli nationalist sentiments. { } 22:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jjj1238, You are very funny! scroll up and see what I wrote again: Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia. I am not erasing her backgroung in Russia, so stop accuse me on nationalist editing. I want to find a compromise between us.Your example about Rina is not good. Her parents are Jappanese. Goln's parents are Ukrainian-Latvian. Barak a (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

You are erasing her background as a Russian-Israeli musician. "Russian-Israeli" is already a compromise, it highlights the two facets of her identity: where she began her career and lived for 12 years, versus where she lives now and has continued her career. Your proposal minimizes her connection to Russia when her connection to Israel was no more than a country of birth prior to just 2 years ago (and 7 years into her professional music career). This would be a different story if the bulk of her music career took place in Israel, but it did not, she has been based in Russia for the large majority of her career (and her life) and your proposal minimizes that. You also misinterpret the Rina Sawayama comparison: both artists were born somewhere (Japan or Israel) and then had their music careers largely based elsewhere for the bulk of their careers (UK or Russia) while maintaining citizenship of their birth country. { } 22:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Eden Golan (Hebrew: עדן גולן; Russian: Эден Голан; born 5 October 2003) is an Israeli singer, who raised and started her career in Russia - What is wrong with this? It seems you are involving politics and your agendas about Israel to Misplaced Pages. Tell me what's wrong with my suggestion. Barak a (talk) 22:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Reread my response and you will have your answer. { } 22:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

How many other musicians would you like to add an extra ‘Origins:’ section to that doesn’t currently exist? Any non-Jews? KronosAlight (talk) 22:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I want to make clear I don't necessarily agree with Barak. I just couldn't find the quote that was referred to, and as someone currently in academia, I always want to check sources whether I agree or disagree with a statement. I am a fairly inexperienced wikipedian, so I don't think my opinion should even matter much, since I do not know all the conventions and rules around this, unlike jjj, who seems much more knowledgeable on this.

I was mostly following this because I am a eurovision fan and like to look at the role nationalism plays in a competition that tries to, at least on the surface, be apolitical. I don't think you meant harm, but please do not use me to support or counter any point being made here.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 13:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages policy. You are not providing any argument that is in-line with policy. She began her career in Russia and first garnered notability through a career in Russia, and there is consensus to include this. Her place of birth or what country she is representing in Eurovision do not erase that. { } 17:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jjj1238 I already gave you an example with Rihanna, which you ignored. “Rihanna is a Barbadian singer”. Not “American-Barbadian”, though she started her career in the US and lived there for most of her life.

The opening sentence of an artist on a Misplaced Pages page is known to describe the artist’s origin, not the country their career started.

I just think you’re conveniently using the excuse of “policies” for pages that you have a personal bias against, while ignoring valid points in this thread and accusing people of “ nationalist editing”. 2600:1700:400D:F400:5CF5:3156:E8F2:EB4 (talk) 03:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no consensus to include this.

Mayve there is right now slight majority, but this far from consensus. ArmorredKnight (talk) 07:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jjj1238, there is no consensus to include this. It is very easy to see that there are many that object the inclusion.

You can claim a consensus based only on your perspective. ArmorredKnight (talk) 08:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

References

1. Mishali, Gil (12 February 2024). ""A terrible choice": The Ukrainians against Eden Golan". Mako (website) (in Hebrew). Archived from the original on 12 February 2024. Retrieved 5 March 2024.

"There is no Russian roots in her family": What utter nonsense. She grew up in Russia more than she grew up in Israel, her grandfather studied, lived and worked in Moscow (which is also the city where she was raised). Her parents were born in the then-Soviet Union. Her family hails from from what was the Russian Empire until 1917. She started her career in Russia. Reliable sources describe her as Russian-Israeli. The claim that she has no Russian connection is just patently false.

For all practical purposes she is a Russian singer who grew up in Russia to parents born in the Soviet Union with all their ancestry from the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire, and whose grandfather also lived in Moscow, who just recently moved to Israel. If we were to remove any nationality from the lead, it would not be her primary nationality as Russian. --Tataral (talk) 22:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Her primary nationality is Isreali. This is were she was born and this is the citizenship she has. she also currently lives in Israel. ArmorredKnight (talk) 07:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

just to make it clear, the soviet union is not Russia.

The soviet union includes other states like Ukraine. By the logic of Tataral all Ukrainians are russians because Ukraine was part of the soviet union 85.65.234.171 (talk) 08:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Crimea

The note regarding Crimea is confusing. It’s unclear what that has to do with Eden’s biography. 24.191.110.5 (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The relevance is that she was performing in disputed territory. —C.Fred (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of relevance, it's incorrect as far as I can see. https://en.wikipedia.org/New_Wave_(competition) the competition was held in Sochi.

Reopen the nationality discussion, but more structured?

I see people have been editing back and forth on the inclusion of Russian-Israeli vs Israeli. There seems not to be a consensus on which should be added. Is it perhaps time to, instead of simply continuing the earlier discussions, put this question forward in a more structured manner and if that doesn't work escalate to an WP:RfC or some other form of conflict resolution.

I am still relatively new to this sort of conflict, so I try my best but I really appreciate feedback.

A proposal:

Option A Israeli

Option B Russian-Israeli

Option C 'Israeli and Russian' and put her citizenship as Israeli in the infobox (as per Rina Sawayama)

Option D Russian-Israeli and put her citizenship as Israeli

If others have any suggestions, please give them. I myself saw "Israeli who spend a large part of her youth in Russia' on dutch wikipedia, however I think that would fall under A, so I do not believe that should be a separate option.

I believe this should make discussion more structured and make future steps in conflict resolution easier. If more senior editors think I am doing something wrong, please tell me. I am genuinely interested in getting more into Misplaced Pages editing.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"Israeli singer who raised and started her career in Russia. If I have to choose is A. Barak a (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

B per the arguments made by Jjj1238 (talk · contribs) in the previous section. ser! 21:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A. Per MOS:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the opening paragraph unless relevant to the subject's notability". Russian is neither her ethnicity, nor her nationality, nor her birthplace, so the notability issue definitely doesn't stand here. 2A02:587:428B:5278:DCA6:B9D0:750D:6951 (talk) 21:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that her origins as a Russian singer (as in a singer in Russia) is important to her story, seeing half of the "career" section is dedicated to it. Her performances in occupied Crimea are the second most controversial thing about her representing Israel in Eurovision (first of course being her song).

I am unsure if it is enough to call her Russian-Israeli or whether "Israeli who started her career in Russia" would be better, but notability/importance not a good argument against Russian-Israeli, in my opinion.

Also, I would recommend you making an account, since it seems your IP is shifting slightly, making it harder to keep track of your contributions. Plus you get to pick a nice username!

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Manual of style says nothing about career notability in an X country though. As I already said in history, it is thoroughly described in the main body the majority of her career took place in Russia, she is described as an Israeli expatriate in Russia in the categories section and I even compromised into leaving the Russian form of her name (though I'm against it). Calling her also Russian in the lead just because of the relevant backround is redundancy, the average reader can well understand all of her career and achievements in Russia from the aforementioned information. 2A02:587:428B:5278:DCA6:B9D0:750D:6951 (talk) 21:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"The reader can ascertain this" doesn't really hold weight as an argument here, I'm sure your average reader can ascertain plenty of things but it doesn't impact their due-ness. As for your "compromise", it's not really a compromise if I can count five editors at minimum in favour of it and you're the only one supporting removal that I can see - that's just consensus outweighing your opinion. Removing where an artist began her career and lived for the majority of her life is not the right idea imo. ser! 22:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Your argument is explicitly ignoring MOS:ETHNICITY. She began her career in Russia, that is relevant. { } 22:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@{ } How am I ignoring it? I already said this section doesn't refer anything about notability in an X country unless relevant to ethnicity, nationality or birthplace. Once again, Russian is none of these to Golan, she was born in Israel to parents of Ukrainian and Latvian descent. That's it. 2A02:587:428B:5278:DCA6:B9D0:750D:6951 (talk) 22:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking through MOS:ETHNICITY, the Peter Lorre example seems to be closest to the current situation, where she began her career in Russia and moved (back) to Israel. The problem seems to be that I cannot find whether she has held both citizenships as Peter did. I found one blog that claims dual citizenship, but ofcourse blogs aren't RS. (and this could be a case of citogenenis based on the earlier Russian-Israeli form of the WP page)

Meanwhile Commons has her citizenship as Israeli https://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Eden_Golan

I do see some people claiming she had dual citizenship, but those people do not seem reliable. Does anyone know how to check the citizenship status of people? We know her Israeli citizenship because that is a requirement for her participation in Eurovision, but can we learn if she ever received and/or lost a Russian citizenship?

The difficulty here comes from the fact she was born in Israel, then moved to Russia, got famous and then returned to Israel. This A->B->A does not occur often and thus is hard to find a comparison to. The closest I could find is Noa (singer) Who moved from Israel to the USA and then returned to Israel, however she only became famous after she returned to Israel, making the American part of her life not very relevant to her story (and thus rightly is described as Israeli). Anyone else have better examples we can look at?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

B per everything I've said in this talk page ever before. Alternative being C. Really anything but A. { } 22:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A she is defiantly not a Russian singer in any meaningful way ArmorredKnight (talk) 06:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian-Israeli is used on the page for Hurricane

During some source research I noticed the wikipedia page for Hurricane (Eden Golan song) uses Russian-Israeli to refer to Eden and links to Russians in Israel. While the link seems wrong to me, I thought it useful to notify people here on its use.

Perhaps we can use that talk page to get more eyes on this discussion?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 16:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Link is wrongly used per MOS:OVERLINK and I've already subjected my thoughts on the Russian-Israeli, Israeli-Russian etc issue on the above discussion. It should normally get changed as well but I can't do it myself since the article is locked. 2A02:587:428B:5278:1422:9C6F:2505:283A (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the page also seems to be about people born in Russia moving to Israel and then staying there, different from Eden. But it was more about: Should we come to a conclusion here, we should make the hurricane page conform.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 17:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

RSs on Use of Israeli vs Russian-Israeli

Because Misplaced Pages is all about reliable sources, I thought it would be good to see how the rest of the world refers to her. I did not include unreliable sources, because they add nothing to the discussion. The Daily Mail or the Mirror aren’t going to convince anyone of anything. It seems more sources refer to her as "Russian-Israeli" than only "Israeli". Many sources did include things like "The candidate from Israel" or "The Israeli representative in Eurovision" but I excluded these because they obviously point towards the country she represents in Eurovision instead of her nationality.

If I missed any articles, feel free to add.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages may be about reliable sources but still, even the most reliable ones are written by ordinary people like you and me. Russian obviously refers to her career in the country and as I already said multiple times above, the average reader can totally understand all of her career in Russia and that it began from this specific country. Take for instance Ava Max, she is referred in multiple sources as Albanian-American (some instances being these , ), yet she is described as simply American in the main article. Plus, MOS:ETHNICITY says hyphen is used only for ethnicity purposes, so saying Russian-Israel is misleading and can confuse the average reader about a possible Russian background of hers, which is not the case here. 2A02:587:428B:5278:1422:9C6F:2505:283A (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

"even the most reliable ones are written by ordinary people like you and me"

What do you mean with that? The whole idea of RSs is that we can trust them because they are written by journalists and checked by editors and such.

Plus, I doubt your interpretation of MOS:ETHNICITY (also known as MOS:NATIONALITY). I could not find anything that stated that hyphens are only for ethnicity. I do have dyslexia so it is possible that I missed it.

I think this part does give us a question to answer:

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

Namely, do we consider her Russian career why she is most notable? Since she has only been living for just over 2 years in Israel again, you could say she is mainly a Russian singer (as in sing in Russia) who moved to Israel, to support this is the controversy about occupied Crimea which is a quite infamous part of her career. On the other hand one could fully and rationally argue that the only reason people are really interested in her is because of Eurovision. This page began as a redirect to Israel in Eurovision Song Contest 2024.

Besides nationality is an inherently vague concept. What makes someone from somewhere? I philosophically do not like the idea of ethnicity and nationality, because they are so vague and difficult to verify.

I just want to be clear that I am still unsure which side of this conflict I am on. Both sides have good points, but it seems we have 2 people that favor Russian-Israeli and two people that favor Israeli, so I just try to set forth information and argument for both sides so that I might come to a conclusion and possibly other people who want a perspective on these things.

P.S. Ava Max is a poor comparison (IMO) because of two factors. One being that she never lived in Albania, while Golan did live in Russia. And the second is the weird behavior of Americans around ethnicity. People who haven't lived in Italy for multiple generations call themselves "Italian-American". The thing that complicates this even more is that she calls herself "100% Albanian", which is the opposite of Eden who didn't feel connected to Russia. I think you can interpret this in two ways, either "Self stated connection/identification shouldn't be taken into account/should't dominate over other methods of detemination" or "Even someone who felt 100% Albanian wasn't called Albanian, so why should we call someone who didn't feel Russian, Russian-Israeli?"

I get you wanted to make a point about sources, but I think the difference between Ava and Eden is too great for this comparison to be helpful.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean that since they are written by regular people, they often make mistakes. You said yourself you found sources you weren't 100% sure they were reliable above, besides the Ava Max example I mentioned. Regarding the MOS:ETHNICITY part, you were the one misinterprating, see the Arnold Schwarzenegger part. It explicitely says : "dual citizenship can be a political issue, so it is important to be clear and avoid ambiguity. The lead sentence here is not about ethnicity ("Austrian-American") or the country of birth ("Austrian-born American"), but rather about dual citizenship". I don't know if the Ava Max example is a good one but as I already said multiple times before, the average reader can totally understand from the rest of the text all of her achievements in Russia, the fact her musical career began from there and that she lived a significant part of her life there, she is described as an Israeli expatriate in Russia in the categories, in the infobox it is mentioned as well she started her career from Russia and I compromised into leaving the Russian form of her name, both in the infobox and in the lead, though I am against it. So why do we have to make it such a big issue since in 9 (not to say more) to 10 cases of Misplaced Pages articles, the lead is for nationality purposes and not for notability or other ones? 2A02:587:428B:5278:B43E:C45:434A:5924 (talk) 14:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

But there are articles that use "Russian-American" and are Generally Reliable, which is the highest tier of reliability on wikipedia. This is why I added the reliability rating, so that we can choose which level of reliability we are willing to accept. We cannot simply ignore them if we think they might be wrong.

On the MOS:NATIONALITY, you seem to be (intentionally or unintentionally, I do not know) cherry-picking what part of the sencence you find important. The whole sentence is:

"For a politician, dual citizenship can be a political issue, so it is important to be clear and avoid ambiguity. The lead sentence here is not about ethnicity ("Austrian-American") or the country of birth ("Austrian-born American"), but rather about dual citizenship."

It is clear that this is is about politicians with dual citizenship. In this case Eden is not a politician and we are unsure of her citizenship status. I find this example therefor inadequate.

The reason the argument is had is because it kept getting reverted, and thus needs consensus. I can't really argue on why to choose one over the other because I am still unsure. The way Dutch Misplaced Pages does it "Israeli singer who spend most of her youth in Russia." seems nice, but the fact Generally Reliable sources use Russian-Israeli does make me think of Verifiability, not truth. (Although that has it's own conflicts with it being an essay not actual policy)

Also, what you consider compromise is not really important, wikipedia isn't politics. You can't trade one phrasing for another.

But in order to actually solve the problem, do you think we should ask some people to voice their opinions on the matter? Perhaps WikiProject Eurovision can lend us a hand? I think they would be the only people interested in this. Should I just leave a comment on their Talk page? Or does anyone have a better idea on how to resolve this conflict?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Might be an idea to let the WikiProject know on the talk page, yeah. I've not had a chance to read over the debate but it would be great to get some extra voices involved. ser! 18:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Good, then I'll ask them to take a look before I go to bed. It's late over here and I need some sleep for the great event tomorrow the national holiday in my country. (oops wrong date) It would be nice if we could solve this before the Finale, since that is when we will probably get the most views ever.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz Then let's take into consideration the example just above on the specific guideline, which mentions :

The second example is someone who emigrated as a child and continued to identify as a citizen of their adopted country:

   Isaac Asimov (c. January 2, 1920 – April 6, 1992) was an American writer

       Per the above guidance, we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance.

Per this guideline, Russian should be clearly ommited. And no, on the above instance I merely didn't see it was about politicans, you don't have to be so suspicious on every little thing. About the uncertainty of her citizenship status you mention, that's your own conclusion, sources call her Russian for all the aforementioned arguments mentioned in the conversation above, there hasn't been some indication of her having a relevant citizenship status. Regarding the compromise thing you mention, there is a guideline which i will post here, as soon as I find it, but regardless of this, why we should name her a Russian-Israeli singer AND include as well the Russian form of her name, as long as there are editors disagreeing? So the compromise thing is definitely not of zero importance here, quite the opposite I would say. 2A02:587:428B:5278:1CBA:12F6:E351:18FD (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, this example if different from our case. You highlight it yourself" "... continued to identify as a citizen of their adopted country." Unless you want to argue that she is natively Russian, which I don't think you do, this is a wholly different case. Asimov was born in Russia, moved to the USA, stayed there until his tragic death and always considered himself american. Golan was born in Israel, moved to Russia but didn't feel connected to the country, then returned to Israel.

I don't think both should be included just because people are arguing, I just simply stated that people are arguing about it because of this part of your reply: "So why do we have to make it such a big issue since in 9 (not to say more) to 10 cases of Misplaced Pages articles, the lead is for nationality purposes and not for notability or other ones?"

My intention was to say "It is a big issue because people disagree." You can argue that it shouldn't be one, which is fair, but the world sadly isn't this simple.

And I will stand firm on compromise: Misplaced Pages is build on consensus, not on deals and compromises. You can get consensus on a compromise position, but simply stating you have compromised on one thing does not guarantee inclusion on another point.

But perhaps it is possible to temporarily remove all mention of nationality from the lede until we have a consensus on what it should be. This way, we can perhaps prevent problems of Citogenesis (a secret fear I have on this topic, since I've seen some places word for word copy older versions of the wiki page)

P.S. Sorry if I felt attacking, English isn't my first language so perhaps there is a better word for unintentional cherrypicking that I do not know. I know cherrypicking often has a connotation of intentionality so I wanted to be clear that I did not want to presuppose your intentions. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

the problem which saying that she is an Israeli Russian or Russian Israeli, is that most likely misleading the reader to think that her ethnicity or nationality is Russia. However this is not the case. 46.116.241.110 (talk) 07:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

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