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Good article reassessment for Mezhyhirya Monastery

Mezhyhirya Monastery has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. NLeeuw (talk) 13:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

New settlement type

So I've initially raised this concern in the Krasna Hora talk page, but I guess this is a more appropriate place to ask about it as it potentially impacts hundreds of articles. I've just checked a similar discussion from 30 November 2023 and the classification changes still seemed inconclusive back then (no change in practice). Therefore, I'll quote my original concern:

@Ykvach: Do you have proof/evidence that Krasna Hora would now be considered a "rural settlement" and not a "village"? Because from what I understood from the new, late 2023, law is that a settlement with less than 5k people would become a village. By the way, did any specific change even become official? Because it's one thing to approve a new principle, it's another to implement it in reality. We should at least have a total number of villages and rural settlements under this new classification. Otherwise this would seem like WP:OR, sadly.

Alternativelly, is it too early to make such massive changes throughout Misplaced Pages? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: You've justified your edits with this before, but that still seems like WP:OR because the new classifications depend on population and structure of the settlement. The appropriate Ukrainian ministry/body should do this reclassification, not us. We should not interpret laws and make such large scale decisions from them. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 02:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact is there are no urban-type settlements in Ukraine anymore. If the government makes more subtle classification, for example, upgrades some to cities, we will upgrade the articles. We recently had a long discussion about it, with a few participants, but I do not remember where it was. Ymblanter (talk) 05:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm still split on this... I would greatly appreciate if you linked the previous discussion. Do you remember at least if it was in this project space or a random settlement talk page? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 05:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess it was on one of the more general talk pages, Populated places in Ukraine or smth similar. Ymblanter (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, if you guys are making interim decisions, why not already adopt the 5k people village-settlement threshold? Or at least word the change as an implication instead of an official fact? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 06:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If there is a law in force about 5k I will be happy to update the articles. Ymblanter (talk) 21:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? It's literally stated in Populated places in Ukraine#Rural populated places. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I would like to see some sources that this has been implemented. Ukraine is infamous for not complying with their own laws at all levels. Ymblanter (talk) 06:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

xD Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The law doesn't exactly work exactly as written. All villages, rural settlements, cities keep their status, but the law introduces certain thresholds that settlements need to reach to change status. The process of up/downgrading the status must be initiated by the local council. Shwabb1 (talk) 11:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. So the urban-type to rural settlement is automatic, but the redistribution among villages and rural settlements is gradual and on a case-by-case basis? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. For example, Slobozhanske Settlement Council, after a local survey, sent a request to the Verkhovna Rada to upgrade the status from rural settlement to city. In the document they sent it is noted that the current population is estimated to be 12,329 with predominantly (~90%) multi-storey housing, which means that Slobozhanske passes both population and population density thresholds. Shwabb1 (talk) 04:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure why you called this an interim decision. A law entered in force, and there are sources which describe the implementation. Ymblanter (talk) 21:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Interim because the official classification will likely have quite a few differences. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter and Ykvach: By the way, isn't the new classification not recognized in Russian controlled territories? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It is not recognized by Russia, obviously. Ymblanter (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Then the articles should mention that (that de facto they're still considered urban-type), of course. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I tried to insert similar things in the past, I encountered a pushback from a bunch of users telling me that what Russia thinks about the territories it controls is irrelevant. Some of these users eventually got blocked indef / banned, but others are still around. Ymblanter (talk) 20:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is non-negotiable. Their argument is basically worthless. We should try to implement that again. I would recommend a footnote in the infobox and an extra sentence in the body. What do you think? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but AFAIK the exact designation does not actually matter that much in the law of either country. Therefore the way I would recommend writing these articles would be to not mention the settlement types prominently in the first place. Then somewhere in the article body, we can mention briefly that the designation of the settlement is disputed. Example: "Ukraine, which is internationally recognized as having sovereignty over , designates it a rural-type settlement. However, Russia, which illegally occupies , de facto administrates it as an urban-type settlement". This is similar to what I've already done in a lot of articles about occupied places where the raion is disputed, because the raions were never really important either.

By the way, does anyone actually have the relevant law about urban-type settlements in Russia? I've taken a look at the relevant section at urban-type settlement but was not able to really parse it in a useful way. I don't doubt the overall premise that Russia doesn't recognize the changes, but I think it might be useful to double-check what exactly the Russian classifications are. HappyWith (talk) 14:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

not mention the settlement types prominently in the first place How should we write the first sentence of the articles though? Because they're mostly: " is a in , Ukraine." Should we just say the generic settlement in the first place and then go deeper somewhere else?

Furthermore, I would be more careful with overgeneralizations and negative connotations in the explainer paragraph. For example, "which is internationally recognized..." implies all countries recognize the Ukrainian control. Pretty sure not all countries were fond of the way Ukraine handled the separatism in those regions. Further ahead, "illegally" unnecessarily give a heavy negative value judgment on Russia. "Occupies" already implies that, and we don't need to go into a short analysis of legality, who's right or wrong, evil or not, in every settlement article. Especially since Ukraine did illegal things too. Just gotta keep the text dry and with neutral wording.

but I think it might be useful to double-check what exactly the Russian classifications are. Do you mean in Russia or Donbas? I think that if we simply say they don't recognize the new law, then we can get away with simply implying that whatever was the old type still stands, unless they themselves have changed it since. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Should we just say the generic settlement in the first place and then go deeper somewhere else?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. As for your criticisms of the connotations and generalizations, the exact wording doesn't really matter, it was just the general gist I was trying to get across, which I think we agree on.

Do you mean in Russia or Donbas? I was under the impression Russia mostly adopted the laws of the LPR and DPR when it annexed those regions. You're probably right that the specifics aren't that important here. HappyWith (talk) 16:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Regarding internal wiki categories, WP:POV doesn't apply right? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: What do you think? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

We mention the type of settlement for every other country, I do not see why we should not do it for Ukraine. Ymblanter (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of List of Americans killed during the Russian invasion of Ukraine for deletion

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Americans killed during the Russian invasion of Ukraine until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Traumnovelle (talk) 20:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Chynadiieve#Requested move 30 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Chynadiieve#Requested move 30 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Ludmila Orestovna Gabel

Hello everyone - I have just created the above article and would appreciate any help members of this WikiProject could give. Thanks GnocchiFan (talk) 10:47, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Infoboxes for settlements in Crimea

The infoboxes of Crimean settlements are a mess. The "country" field is sometimes indicated as Ukraine and Russia, Ukraine (occupied by Russia), disputed, or left empty. Generally only the de facto administrative divisions are included that were de jure abolished by Ukraine in 2023. I've recently been fixing the infoboxes of various Ukrainian cities for consistency, so when it came to Crimea I tried to follow the structure akin to the one in Luhansk and Donetsk, indicating both Ukrainian and Russian administrative divisions. But when @Mellk (whom I'm pinging as this discussion might be of interest) reverted my changes in Alupka and Alushta I realized that there's no concensus on this, so now I'm bringing up this topic here. Shwabb1 (talk) 11:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Stress marks in East Slavic words

Please join the work on the content of Misplaced Pages:Stress marks in East Slavic words. - Altenmann >talk 12:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Are there common abbreviations for oblast names?

Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

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