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THEBAND

In MOS:THEBAND it says lowercase the in things like "member of the Chicks". But what about if the name is used more like a title, "member of the band The Chicks"? Does it make sense to cap in that context? It doesn't say. Dicklyon (talk) 23:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Definitely lowercase. Popcornfud (talk) 23:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That's what I've been doing, but I got some pushback, so worth checking. Maybe make it explicit. Dicklyon (talk) 23:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Personally I don't think there's anything extra here to be spelled out. I'm not sure what you mean by "using the name like a title" here — I don't see the example you give as distinct from any other construction... so-and-so is a member of the Chicks; so-and-so listens to the Chicks; so-and-so bought an album by the Chicks; etc. Popcornfud (talk) 23:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Yep! Lowercase the. Some people really feel attached to The, so they keep coming up with new twists, but the present rules are clear enough. SchreiberBike | ⌨  00:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Per others. Writing about the Chicks is not different from writing about the Beatles. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Lowercase. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

"Lowercase" - Good enough for the Beatles? good enough the Chicks. GoodDay (talk) 03:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

"Using the name like a title" is addressed in the example about the Beatles' so-called White Album, in which case "The Beatles", in italics without quotes, is correct whether at the beginning or in the middle of a sentence. But "the band the Beatles" is correct in using their name, which is not a title any more than your own name is. Allreet (talk) 07:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

OK, I've done lowercase and gotten no more pushback so far. But I think people are not really seeing the point I'm making about the context. "A song by the Beatles" is clearly lowercase "the". But what about "a band called The Beatles" or "the group The Beatles", where it's clearly to be interpreted as a literal band name (not an album name or such)? If this is still to be lowercase, we ought to have an example like that that we can point to. Dicklyon (talk) 12:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I think in "a band called The Beatles" or "the group The Beatles" it's more reasonably with capitalized "The", as you use it here. The article is lowercased if the name is grammatically embedded in the whole sentence, but here it's not really embedded, but kinda quoted, with invisible quotation marks surrounding it, so capitalizing it makes sense. Gawaon (talk) 12:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I understand the distinction you're drawing, but I don't agree that the distinction is meaningful or that we need to worry about it. We don't cap "the" in constructions like "a building called the Eiffel Tower", "a country called the United States of America", "the hockey team the New York Rangers", etc. Why treat bands differently?

(I've said this a few times before, but something about capitalizing "the" in band names specifically causes people to lose their minds and I don't know why.) Popcornfud (talk) 12:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The confusion for many is that "The" is often part of a band's full name, e.g., The Beatles and The Beat, and they're uncertain about the related grammar for using the names in a sentence. The rule or convention is to lower case "The": "When the Beatles landed in New York..." (That's been well covered.) Then there are groups whose names do not start with "The", e.g., Beastie Boys and Beirut. In a sentence, we have to add "the" before the Beasties Boys' name but not Beirut's. I don't know if there's a rule covering the latter, other than "what sounds right" in speech. Titles further complicate casing: The Story of The Beat (or ...the Beastie Boys) for a bio, The Best of Beirut (or ...The Beatles) for a compilation, and "A Talk with the Beasties" (or "...The Beat") for a magazine interview. Popcornfud, your examples and comments indicate you didn't understand our fellow editor's dilemmas and also the fact that not everyone has had the same background you did for knowing what to do the first time you had to handle each usage. Allreet (talk) 05:01, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Popcornfud, I checked the Chicks article and saw you cleared up the remaining issues. Very proactive, I must say. Dicklyon, I reviewed the article, and it seems all is in order. Complicating things was the change in the band's name, so I well understand the uncertainties along the way. I believe the concensus for using their former name for events prior to the change was correct. Another way this is handled is with a parenthetical: "When the Chicks (then, the Dixie Chicks) set out on their tour..." But that approach should be used very sparingly or it can be obtrusive. Allreet (talk) 05:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I was reverted on several other articles when I lowercase "the" in "...country band The Chicks...". I can understand an editor saying that this doesn't parse with the ordinary article "the" in that context, so needs to be capped as part of the band name. Just checking to see if there's support for that position. Looks like not. Dicklyon (talk) 06:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

In response to this, I believe you're correct unless, as I note below. the band's name was previously mentioned. That said, The Beatles page says the band was formerly known as "the Quarrymen", while The Quarrymen page says they were later called "the Beatles". I also checked my copy of The Beatles Anthology and it refers to the earlier group as The Quarry Men. So why is it you're confused?

Along the way I also noticed some titles of albums by "The" bands where "The" was lower cased within the title, and I kinda agree because the upper case can look odd, so apparently either is acceptable. In any case, I'm amending my earlier comments to say this: "The" at the start of a band's name is handled as the bands and publishers see fit. That doesn't help us much, except I'd go with either how sources cover the issues or what was already being done in the WP article, unless the article was a mess. In the scheme of things, none of this will lead to WWIII, though it does make our job more difficult and at times frustrating. Allreet (talk) 02:36, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Here's a more explicit example of the use in question: "Dixie Chicks and Lady Antebellum subsequently changed their names to The Chicks and Lady A respectively." Who would use lowercase "the Chicks" in that context? I would not. Maybe they need to italicized, for term as term? Dicklyon (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Judgment is sometimes called for depending on the situation. I agree with using a capital here if this is the first use of the name within the article. If the name "The Chicks" was introduced previously, then "the" is correct in the example you gave, otherwise readers have no way of knowing the band included "The" in their name. Allreet (talk) 01:30, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Based on conventions in WP and music encyclopedias I have, once "The" is established in a title, lower case can be used in subsequent occurences. Internet searches turn up instances where "The" isn't used at all, e.g., Vogue and Variety. An oddity: Britannica even lower cases "the" in the title. Based on this, "the" doesn't even need to be capitalized for the first ref to Dixie Chicks in WP's article (it's not). I know some of this is confusing, but I think the usages in the Chicks article are acceptable. Apologies for not being more thorough at the get. I'm going to strike out comments I've made that are clearly incorrect so as to not confuse others and draw attention to what now seems acceptable. Allreet (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Lowercase. Imagine if the Eiffel Tower was originally called the Foo Tower. The sentence would then be "The Foo Tower was renamed the Eiffel Tower." There would be no reason to cap "the", even if it was the first mention, that would be bizarre. Popcornfud (talk) 23:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

We have Eiffel Tower, but The Chicks. One has "The" as inherent part of the name, and the other doesn't, so not really an apt analogy. Dicklyon (talk) 00:22, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Yep, that's an inconsistency within Misplaced Pages, and a consistency I flagged above. We have Spice Girls and Rolling Stones, but The Beatles. Go figure.

In any case, the titles of Misplaced Pages articles should not be our guiding compass when figuring out how to capitalize. That's putting the cart before the horse. Popcornfud (talk) 00:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Running prose is running prose even in the sentence "the band the Beatles". No reason to change the guidance at MOS:THEMUSIC. Don't over-capitalize. Binksternet (talk) 03:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)