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New settlement type

So I've initially raised this concern in the Krasna Hora talk page, but I guess this is a more appropriate place to ask about it as it potentially impacts hundreds of articles. I've just checked a similar discussion from 30 November 2023 and the classification changes still seemed inconclusive back then (no change in practice). Therefore, I'll quote my original concern:

@Ykvach: Do you have proof/evidence that Krasna Hora would now be considered a "rural settlement" and not a "village"? Because from what I understood from the new, late 2023, law is that a settlement with less than 5k people would become a village. By the way, did any specific change even become official? Because it's one thing to approve a new principle, it's another to implement it in reality. We should at least have a total number of villages and rural settlements under this new classification. Otherwise this would seem like WP:OR, sadly.

Alternativelly, is it too early to make such massive changes throughout Misplaced Pages? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: You've justified your edits with this before, but that still seems like WP:OR because the new classifications depend on population and structure of the settlement. The appropriate Ukrainian ministry/body should do this reclassification, not us. We should not interpret laws and make such large scale decisions from them. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 02:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact is there are no urban-type settlements in Ukraine anymore. If the government makes more subtle classification, for example, upgrades some to cities, we will upgrade the articles. We recently had a long discussion about it, with a few participants, but I do not remember where it was. Ymblanter (talk) 05:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm still split on this... I would greatly appreciate if you linked the previous discussion. Do you remember at least if it was in this project space or a random settlement talk page? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 05:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess it was on one of the more general talk pages, Populated places in Ukraine or smth similar. Ymblanter (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, if you guys are making interim decisions, why not already adopt the 5k people village-settlement threshold? Or at least word the change as an implication instead of an official fact? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 06:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If there is a law in force about 5k I will be happy to update the articles. Ymblanter (talk) 21:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? It's literally stated in Populated places in Ukraine#Rural populated places. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I would like to see some sources that this has been implemented. Ukraine is infamous for not complying with their own laws at all levels. Ymblanter (talk) 06:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

xD Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The law doesn't exactly work exactly as written. All villages, rural settlements, cities keep their status, but the law introduces certain thresholds that settlements need to reach to change status. The process of up/downgrading the status must be initiated by the local council. Shwabb1 (talk) 11:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. So the urban-type to rural settlement is automatic, but the redistribution among villages and rural settlements is gradual and on a case-by-case basis? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. For example, Slobozhanske Settlement Council, after a local survey, sent a request to the Verkhovna Rada to upgrade the status from rural settlement to city. In the document they sent it is noted that the current population is estimated to be 12,329 with predominantly (~90%) multi-storey housing, which means that Slobozhanske passes both population and population density thresholds. Shwabb1 (talk) 04:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Cool! Alexis Coutinho (talk) 04:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure why you called this an interim decision. A law entered in force, and there are sources which describe the implementation. Ymblanter (talk) 21:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Interim because the official classification will likely have quite a few differences. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter and Ykvach: By the way, isn't the new classification not recognized in Russian controlled territories? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It is not recognized by Russia, obviously. Ymblanter (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Then the articles should mention that (that de facto they're still considered urban-type), of course. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I tried to insert similar things in the past, I encountered a pushback from a bunch of users telling me that what Russia thinks about the territories it controls is irrelevant. Some of these users eventually got blocked indef / banned, but others are still around. Ymblanter (talk) 20:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is non-negotiable. Their argument is basically worthless. We should try to implement that again. I would recommend a footnote in the infobox and an extra sentence in the body. What do you think? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but AFAIK the exact designation does not actually matter that much in the law of either country. Therefore the way I would recommend writing these articles would be to not mention the settlement types prominently in the first place. Then somewhere in the article body, we can mention briefly that the designation of the settlement is disputed. Example: "Ukraine, which is internationally recognized as having sovereignty over , designates it a rural-type settlement. However, Russia, which illegally occupies , de facto administrates it as an urban-type settlement". This is similar to what I've already done in a lot of articles about occupied places where the raion is disputed, because the raions were never really important either.

By the way, does anyone actually have the relevant law about urban-type settlements in Russia? I've taken a look at the relevant section at urban-type settlement but was not able to really parse it in a useful way. I don't doubt the overall premise that Russia doesn't recognize the changes, but I think it might be useful to double-check what exactly the Russian classifications are. HappyWith (talk) 14:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

not mention the settlement types prominently in the first place How should we write the first sentence of the articles though? Because they're mostly: " is a in , Ukraine." Should we just say the generic settlement in the first place and then go deeper somewhere else?

Furthermore, I would be more careful with overgeneralizations and negative connotations in the explainer paragraph. For example, "which is internationally recognized..." implies all countries recognize the Ukrainian control. Pretty sure not all countries were fond of the way Ukraine handled the separatism in those regions. Further ahead, "illegally" unnecessarily give a heavy negative value judgment on Russia. "Occupies" already implies that, and we don't need to go into a short analysis of legality, who's right or wrong, evil or not, in every settlement article. Especially since Ukraine did illegal things too. Just gotta keep the text dry and with neutral wording.

but I think it might be useful to double-check what exactly the Russian classifications are. Do you mean in Russia or Donbas? I think that if we simply say they don't recognize the new law, then we can get away with simply implying that whatever was the old type still stands, unless they themselves have changed it since. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Should we just say the generic settlement in the first place and then go deeper somewhere else?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. As for your criticisms of the connotations and generalizations, the exact wording doesn't really matter, it was just the general gist I was trying to get across, which I think we agree on.

Do you mean in Russia or Donbas? I was under the impression Russia mostly adopted the laws of the LPR and DPR when it annexed those regions. You're probably right that the specifics aren't that important here. HappyWith (talk) 16:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Regarding internal wiki categories, WP:POV doesn't apply right? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: What do you think? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

We mention the type of settlement for every other country, I do not see why we should not do it for Ukraine. Ymblanter (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The Russian classifier, OKATO, would indicate that urban-type settlements remain urban-type settlements. One could argue that that document is outdated, but at least we have a basis to assert that the latest Russian understanding is that they are urban-type. In fact, it seems that all Ukrainian changes are ignored, for example Bakhmut is still referred to as Artemovsk in the document.

With this in mind, I argue that for the sake of WP:NPOV the classifications of both parties should be equally displayed (no footnotes for the Russian POV) in infoboxes and text, but with the Ukrainian classification appearing first for the sake of notability, larger recognition and because order can be more arbitrary. "de facto" and "de jure" should not always (maybe the 2024 captures are still not "de jure" for Russia, idk) be used because the occupied towns are also both "de facto" and "de jure" following the Russian classification in the Russian and local POV. Therefore, the different classifications should be distinguished by "per Russia/Ukraine" or "according to Russia/Ukraine".

It should not be solely stated that those settlements "were" considered urban-type as that is only for the Ukrainian POV. So the explanations should also be amended. I also propose to revive the old category as it is still helpful for historic purposes and to respect WP:NPOV. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Or god forbid, time could be spent on something more productive. TylerBurden (talk) 23:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm mostly trying to build a consensus at this stage, in case isolated editors complain in the future.

Btw, it's easy to say "why bother" when the current state is already favorable to the person. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 05:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Developing Countries WikiContest

Starting this July, we will see a new contest on the scene - the Developing Countries WikiContest (WP:DCWC)! Think of it as a WikiCup but only for articles and media on developing countries.

Competitors may submit GAs, GTs, FAs, FTs, FLs, FPs, and DYK and ITN entries from/on developing countries to gain points and climb the leaderboard. Points are also awarded to those who review GAs, FAs and FLs.

Ukraine is listed as a developing country for the purposes of this contest and articles related to it are eligible to be submitted for points, so I encourage everyone here to sign up and compete with editors from around the world to create high-quality content!

Append your name to the DCWC signup page today!

Best wishes, Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (/_{my edits}) 07:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Guidelines on including Russian spelling for location names?

Are there any specific guidelines, policies, or precedents on whether or not I should include the Russian spelling of location names? If I'm creating a new article on a village, for example, should I include "Something (Template:Lang-uk; Template:Lang-ru) is a village..."? Thanks! – Primium (talk) 18:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is WP:NCGN, according to it Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Of course "relevance" is somewhat subjective. I would add the Russian name either if it has been commonly used in English (like Odessa) or if the locality has been occupied and annexed by Russia in which case the Russian name is clearly used by the inhabitants. Alaexis_¿question? 19:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Alaexis. Thanks for your response. So the assumption is that occupied territories will inevitably be inhabited by Russian speakers? – Primium (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Not quite, the assumption is that this is the de facto official language there, so the documents issued there and local news would use the Russian name. The reason we include alternative names is to help the reader find more information about the topic should they want to do it.

Russian speakers live also outside of the occupied territories, actually before the Euromaidan it had the status of a regional language in most of Eastern and Southern Ukraine (see Russian_language_in_Ukraine#Russian_language_in_Ukrainian_politics for more details). Alaexis_¿question? 07:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I was assuming it was determined by the local authorities, but I was confused about this case, because Russia's local authority is not recognized by many nations and certainly not by Ukraine or even necessarily the inhabitants. Thank you for the clarity and resources! – Primium (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sloboda#Requested move 22 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sloboda#Requested move 22 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe 10:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Historical background of the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine

Historical background of the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Rsk6400 (talk) 13:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Andriy or Andrii?

I've created an article for Andrii Hnatov. I notice that quite a few sources also transliterate his name as "Andriy Hnatov" (and I've also seen "Gnatov" instead of "Hnatov"). Which is correct? Or are there multiple different transliteration systems that are equally valid? — The Anome (talk) 12:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

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