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@Shrike: You have a point. Stuff inside the colored box looks like official rulings and even though we try to make it accurate we can't really speak for Arbcom. Suppose we just emphasise where to look; I don't think that needs permission.
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For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor. In particular, please note that the Arab-Israeli conflict rulings include restrictions on editors without 30 days tenure and 500 edits.
One thing that has come up a few times with newer editors is that they come across some protected pages that they cannot edit and then assume if they can edit, it is allowed. I suppose we can't cover all eventualities but you can sort of see how this one might happen. If going back to Arbcom is a problem, then let's just have a text outside the blue box that makes things clear. I am quite happy to use anything you think works.Selfstudier (talk) 12:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello Zero0000, thank you for the note. I will make myself aware if edits deserve to be categorised as minor or trivial, or else. Thanks for sensitising me! Best wishes Ulf Heinsohn (talk) 21:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
JStor citations
Hi, I was curious about your comment on the RSN that JStor cites CounterPunch over 1000 times. Do you mind if I ask how you can search citations on JStor, rather than mentions of the word "counterpunch"? Thanks! BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
I tried to do that but couldn't see a way to limit the search to citations, which would be an incredibly useful tool, especially for sources such as CounterPunch where the title is also a not uncommonly used ordinary word (e.g. the first hit is a book about boxing). It's possible to search with "counterpunch.com" or "counterpunch.org" but that gives a very small number of hits. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
A basic search on "www.counterpunch.org" threw up 504 results. But some might not do the www or just say Counterpunch and so on.Selfstudier (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Many citations of CounterPunch do not give a url. They give a date, or just the month. That is reasonable since urls decay. So restricting searches to www.counterpunch.org is not correct. A search for (("www.counterpunch.org") OR ("counterpunch.org") OR ("CounterPunch")) gives 1,413 hits. Obviously I didn't look at them all, but I looked at a random sample to see how many were using "CounterPunch" for something other than a citation and judged it was less than 1/4 of the total. Apparently I underestimated those, especially references to boxing. Now I did it more systematically. I looked at every 25th hit and counted how many were mentions of CounterPunch. I got 34 out of 55 with 2 uncertain. So that gives the estimate 873 of articles which reference CounterPunch. As well as the statistical error, there are two additional issues: (1) Some mentions of CounterPunch are not really citations, (2) Many of the articles that cite CounterPunch do so multiple times. Clearly these work in opposite directions if one wants to count citations. So I looked at the full text of the first hit on pages 5,10,...,50 which showed a mention of CP and found that 8 of them had actual citations rather than other sorts of mentions, and the total number of citations was 10. In summary, my best estimate is that 700 articles cite CounterPunch a total of 870 times. I'll edit RSN. Zero01:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
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Hi, Zero0000. I don't want to be caught offending again, nor trespassing my imposed topic ban in the Israel/Palestine area of conflict, otherwise known as the ARPBIA, until such time that I am able to submit an appeal asking to rescind my topic ban, with a reassured commitment to good editing on Misplaced Pages, and with full compliance to Misplaced Pages's policies. Meanwhile, my question to you is this: Can I still make edits on pages that do not carry the ARPBIA tag, and am careful not to mention anything politically or ideologically connected to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? For example, mentioning the names of flora that grow in Palestine? Please advise.Davidbena (talk) 13:43, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
@Davidbena: David, Shrike's method is the safest approach. In general you should interpret "politically or ideologically connected" very broadly. Writing about flora should be fine, but when you describe the distribution of a species you have to avoid incidental political statements (write "Golan Heights", not "Israeli Golan Heights", etc). I notice that lots of red links can be found by following items in Category:Flora of Palestine (region). Zero01:06, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
About the Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud articles, I would like to inform you that the term "palestinian" should not be used there. As you said "..a very common alternative name even in modern scholarship and there is no reason to censor it" it is used for political reasons, and not historic ones. Only recently some researchers started using it. Moreover, the term "Jewish Palestinian Aramaic" is a complete Joke, it was never used and it is still not in use. Someone added it in order to alienate this language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by עצם בלתי מזוהה (talk • contribs) 02:37, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
O for God's sake, Shrike. It is absolutely normal in historical scholarship to refer to a Palestinian Talmud, for the simple reason that the adjective distinguished one from the other (Bavli_Babylonian Talmud) by referring to the respective geographic areas where they were composed. This hang-up about using the word 'Palestine/Palestinian' as if it meant the PLO/PA/or Palestinian people is tiresome, yielding to the politicization of language, to an obsession with establishing a national modern 'politically correct' set of denominators over history, which, even in Jewish traditional scholarship, suffered no such crisis of nerves or sense of illegitimacy. Nishidani (talk) 16:12, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Before commenting on a page's thread, you really should read it first, and not react to one word in it without looking at context, as you have here in ignoring that the point and Zero's reply concerned an alternative name, whose relevance is mentioned in the policy you mentioned WP:COMMON. So you are waving a policy flag without reading it, to respond to a thread without reading it. Doubly bad practice.Nishidani (talk) 17:48, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
@Shrike: You are correct that "Jewish Aramaic" is common. However, there were subtle differences between the version spoken in Babylonia and the version spoken in Palestine, and this is reflected in the language of the Talmuds. Experts for whom the difference is significant use designations like "Palestinian Jewish Aramaic" and "Babylonian Jewish Aramaic". Zero00:31, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
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@Loew Galitz: There are guidelines at WP:OPCOORD. For locations in Israel, 1 second is about 21 meters east-west and 26 meters north-south. A typical small kibbutz is 400-1000 meters in diameter, which is around 20-40 seconds. Giving two digits after the decimal point for seconds suggests that the location is known to within about 20 centimeters, which is meaningless. I'm rounding to the nearest second, which is a movement of 16 meters in the worst case and usually less, at most 1/20 of the size of the location. I hope that makes sense. Zero22:42, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
You may note my latest editing of the article. I suppose the colonel’s memoirs might be classed as Original Research, as might my own contributions, as I was actually present that night as a rifleman in ‘A’ Company, though not positioned close enough to hear the pipes. But in the second half of the tour, I was billeted beside the Pipes and Drums, and I never heard any questioning of the story, either then or later, working as a reporter in Edinburgh. Valetude (talk) 10:52, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi Valetude. If the book mentions the story about the surrender, it would be ok to mention it as the opinion of the author or as the belief of the British soldiers. But I don't think that stating it as a plain fact is good unless the rebels themselves confirmed it. Only the rebels really knew why they surrendered. Cheers. Zero12:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
I find it odd that we're having to prove that there was no formal surrender. The other side would hardly be wanting to prove there was one. Why is the surrender story being treated as sacred? Where did it come from? Where are the cites?
I can offer you this much:
The Times, January 9, 2010: ‘We regret driving out the British,’ say Aden’s former rebels.
One of them wrote a letter saying “Under the British we had peace. The Yemeni fighters were ignorant. I hope the British come back.” Another said “People didn’t know any better. It was an emotional response born out of Arab nationalism and Nasserite revolutionary feelings.” Valetude (talk) 13:22, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Valetude You misunderstood, sorry. I'm only referring to the story that they surrendered because of the pipes playing. Zero13:31, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
They didn't surrender. There were no prisoners. They simply melted away, and restricted their activities to occasional small arms fire, apart from one attempt at another mutiny, which Mitch faced down through sheer force of character. Valetude (talk) 13:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
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Whoops, looks like I accidentally posted the name of my underground downtempo/grindcore band. Thanks for catching that! 😬 Drsmoo (talk) 03:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Flag of Mandatory Palestin
I disagree with your edit there -- it was a flag legally decreed FOR USE AT SEA. It had no particular status ON LAND. AnonMoos (talk) 22:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
@AnonMoos: I know that; I'm just about to add the actual legislation. It was a maritime ensign with no purpose on land at all (unless government port installations flew it). What does it mean to say that a maritime ensign was "not embraced", except if it was not embraced at sea? And where is the source? At the moment this is a useless sentence and it can't stay. Zero03:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
As stated in the article, it was the only Palestine-specific flag not restricted to official government use, so there was nothing preventing its use on land by anyone who wanted to do so (though without official status), if there had been any enthusiasm for it -- but there was no enthusiasm for it. Assertions in the lead section don't require separate sourcing if they follow from what's below. AnonMoos (talk) 03:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
@AnonMoos: Where is this claim sourced anywhere in the article? Why is it significant if nobody used a maritime ensign on land? Why should they? Zero03:55, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
@AnonMoos: Note that authority from the "Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty" was required for the maritime ensign to be used on ships. I can't prove it, but I'll bet that use for any other purpose was illegal. Zero06:24, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
I bet that's not the case -- For the UK flag itself (the famous Union Jack), there were strict regulations governing its use by ships at sea and flying from government buildings, but there weren't really any laws permitting or forbidding private citizens from displaying it on land until well into the 20th century. If there had been any British mandate patriotism among non-British inhabitants of the Mandate, it could have easily found expression in use of the Palesgtine red ensign (which was comparable to colonial flags of a number of other UK colonies), but there wasn't... AnonMoos (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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Idk if you saw it already, "The Challenge of Categories: UNRWA and the Definition of a Palestine Refugee" (Ilana Feldman 2012) is of any use? Selfstudier (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
@Selfstudier: Thanks. It is more interesting as a summary of how UNRWA operated in the early days. Quite a lot of mythology is refuted there. Zero11:35, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
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Afore I go getting myself into trouble, is there a consensus anywhere about the use of the terms "First Temple period" and "Second Temple period". I know what they mean now but I would have thought your average reader wouldn't really understand them. They might not understand "Persian period" or "late Roman"
either but still, more chance with those than the other? Selfstudier (talk) 17:58, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
The first temple period is actually the iron age and pre-Persian - with the Persians came Cyrus the Great, who returned the exiled Babylonian Judaeans to Jerusalem and rebuilt the temple, the second temple, which overlaps both Persian and Roman (Herodian) periods. Iron age seems the obvious way to go with the former - second depends a little on the framing. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
I imagine "First Temple period" and "Second Temple period" might be rather popular terms in biblical archaeology though, and have some source weight. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
To editors Iskandar323 and Selfstudier: I don't know if there is wiki-consensus about this. I don't remember one but my memory for such things is bad. Certainly these phrases are very common in sources. I think that "First Temple period" is sometimes used even by people who are not sure of the reality of the first temple; to them it just means the time period during which the first temple traditionally existed. In Misplaced Pages, I think that we should specify time periods using explicit numbered centuries, with the possible exception of when we are writing about something to do with the temple. It is more informative to general readers and there is no rule that we have to slavishly follow the wording of sources when the paraphrase doesn't involve OR. Zero07:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Yes I agree with specific dates in the text where possible, I was thinking more of section heads.
If you were writing an article about some place and its history (assuming it had a long history) how would you divide the time frame? Selfstudier (talk) 09:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
There are several confusions on that page. Perhaps worst is the over-extension of the classical period, which hands over to the early middle ages/medieval period in the 4th century CE, as noted, in fact, on the History of Jerusalem during the Middle Ages page, not with the Muslim conquests, as the current timeline somewhat implies. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
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Hey Zero0000. I've begun working on al-Aqsa Mosque again. Pringle's The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom ... Vol 3 presents a pretty comprehensive and detailed history of the building, but there are several pages which I am unable to access by GBooks preview. Do you happen to have full access to this source? The pages I am looking for are 417, 421, 424, 427, 430-431 and 433. @Huldra: Same message. For some reason I remember, or misremember, that Zero or yourself had access to this book. If not, my apologies. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:17, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
User:Al Ameer son; I have a physical copy of the book. Unfortunately my scanner doesn't work, so I will have to wait until Monday to go to the library to scan it -and send it to you- (I believe I have your email-address?) -unless Zero beats me to it. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
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In January this year you uploaded an image of a memorandum published in the August 26 1840 issue of The Times headed RESTORATION OF THE JEWS. The file's title is RestorationJewsTimes1840. Perhaps you or I could change that to Restoration of the Jews Memorandum 1840 (assuming the year is accurate) or RESTORATION OF THE JEWS MEMORANDUM 1840. Mcljlm (talk) 03:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
@Zero: All titles should be accurate especially since they're likely to be used elsewhere. In this case "the" isn't insignificant. There doesn't appear to be any reason for there not to be spaces between the words or before the year. Mcljlm (talk) 22:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
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Since you seem to be so proficient at unearthing buried treasures, here's a "Mission Impossible" for you. At Backslash#History, we've been trying to find out when the \ mark first appeared. But more usefully, why did the Teletype Corporation (at the request of the US Armed Forces?) "invent" it? what was its purpose? It must have been significant enough to merit its own key on the keyboard. Intriguing, don't you think?
@Infinity Knight: Your "previous warning" fell flat on its face, as you are perfectly aware. Incidentally, good editors avoid sources that are regularly damned by qualified reviewers and look for sources that command general respect. That leads to articles that meet the requirements of balance. Zero14:34, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussion was triggered by your view There is a difference between article space and talk space... here. Hope you realize the view is baseless. This time please note that BLP applies also to edit comments. That's the takeaway. Infinity Knight (talk) 11:23, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
There is a proper way to discuss content choices, and saying In my opinion the author is so and so... is not appropriate. See WP:BLPTALK. For example, it would be appropriate to begin a discussion by stating This link has serious allegations about subject; should we summarize this someplace in the article?. Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. Infinity Knight (talk) 12:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Nope, it is good to cite additional sources in order to discuss the reliability of a source but it isn't a requirement. "X is an idiot" is not information about X, it is an opinion. These rules derive from US libel laws and were vetted by the WMF lawyers. WP can be sued for publishing "X murdered his mother" but it can't be sued for publishing "Zero thinks X is a fanatic". Zero12:51, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Lawyers make money out of challenging boundaries. I consciously chose to not use the word "islamophobe" because I thought it was too close to the boundary. I would certainly recommend citing a source for that. If it got to ArbCom I wouldn't bet on the result, though. Zero13:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Reads like somebody pretending that a section at BLPN in which every single user disagreed with their claim constitutes a "warning" to another editor. Reads like somebody asking for a boomerang for tendentious editing. So do the repeated ONUS violations. nableezy - 16:02, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The evidence suggests that this a sustained issue accross several pages. Guess some group of authors just have to be "weeded out"? Who are those "fanatics"? Badmouthing authors who are not present in the discussion is not a sign of grace anyway and nor permitted by BLP. Infinity Knight (talk) 06:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
When reviewers have widely panned a work as unhistorical and hysterical then yes it is an unreliable source. Good luck citing From Time Immemorial too. nableezy - 17:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
More details about "fanatics", figure it out ;) The point is when talking about a living author and sharing serious allegations please provide links per WP:BLPTALK, weed out happily otherwise. Merry Christmas! Infinity Knight (talk) 21:28, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
No the point is when an editor says that a source is unreliable, dont just immediately revert it back in because like all content the onus for consensus is on those arguing for inclusion. If you continue to disregard that then well we can see what happens, as no matter how many times you remove warnings about that from your talk page the diffs last forever. Oh, and the person who initially inserted that crap, indef blocked as every single one of their edits had a distinct "the Moslems are evil" bent to it. Merry Christmas. nableezy - 00:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
I doubt it, unles the pursuant wants to risk a ban for Truk-Island style feuding. This nonsense about Patterson and BLP was definitively buried 2 and a half years ago after a forensic exposition of why he is legitimately thought non RS. IK looks like he waited all that time in the wings for an opportunity to revive a dead POV.
Time does not heal on Truk . . shortly after the American occupation of the atoll at the end of World War 11 . . A villager arrived out of breath at the military government headquarters. He said that a murder had been committed in the village and that the murderer was running around loose. Quite naturally the military government officer became alarmed. He was about to dispatch M.P.s to arrest the culprit when he remembered that someone had warned him about acting precipitously when dealing with 'natives'. A little inquiry turned up the fact that the victimn had been "fooling around" with the murderer's wife. Still more inquiry of a routine type, designed to establish the date and place of the crime, revealed that the murder had not occurred a few hours or even days ago as one might expect, but seventeen years before.Edward T. Hall, The Silent Language 1959 Premier Books ed.1961 p.26.
See the initial comment in this section lol. You were previously warned, citing a thread in which every single person disagreed with IK and declined to warn Zero. nableezy - 17:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I was just going through the {{Jewish villages depopulated during the 1929 Palestine riots}} template and found that a while back you removed the template from Kfar Uria, although you left the page in the template. Your edit comment then was "this box is not justified in the text". I found the text even then to be pretty clear that the village was burnt down in 1929, and only rebuilt in 1945. Perhaps you were confused by the fact that some of the Jewish farmers continued to work the fields there -- the text is not completely clear that they lived elsewhere and would only return to the site to work the fields but not to sleep there. Inasmuch as there were no inhabitable buildings on the site between 1929 and 1945, and no one actually lived there, I find its inclusion as a village that was depopulated in 1929 to be entirely correct and proper.
I was BOLD and reverted your edit, and I am starting this discussion here on your Talk page to see if I/we need to do something else to retain consensus. Respectfully, -- Eliyahu S11:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I see now that there were 2 houses occupied in 1931. So the village was not entirely depopulated. Is that what you were referring to? I find that the first definition of depopulate on Wiktionary says to "reduce" and not to "eliminate" people from a place. Even if two of the houses remained habitable, the two census figures show a 75% loss of population -- from 40 people to 10. I also suspect that in 1929 the population was probably greater than the 40 counted in 1922, but the article currently shows those two numbers. I think that a 75% reduction still qualifies as "depopulation". Respectfully, -- Eliyahu S11:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
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@Selfstudier: A serious piece of research published in an academic journal. Even if it is attributed, it should be cited as the result of a research project and not just as a claim. Zero05:05, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
@Selfstudier: I'm a bit confused by the timeline because aerial photos show construction starting around 2007. I've got a fiendishly busy week but I'll get to this eventually. Zero12:51, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
@Selfstudier: Confusing. It seems that the first alert given to an ARBPIA editor should now be {{subst:alert/first|a-i}} instead of {{subst:alert|a-i}}. It is better I think because it mentions the 30/500 restriction and 1RR instead of expecting the editor to read the ARBPIA page. If I understand footnote "n" at WP:Contentious topics, it is not necessary to give the new alert to people who previously received the old alert. Zero00:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
That seems clear enough. And {{Contentious topics/page restriction editnotice|topic=a-i}} for the edit notice? Adding section = yes if it is just partial. I didn't see a new talk page template, just use existing? Selfstudier (talk) 10:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
@Mercresis: It is in footnote 19 with additional references. Quotation: "Recent studies see a direct connection between the fast Ottoman military advance and the consequences of the Black Death from the mid-fourteenth century onwards. They emphasize that Byzantine territories, where the initial Ottoman conquests were carried out, were exhausted (both demographically and militarily) due to the plague outbreaks, which facilitated the Ottoman expansion." It is almost the same as our article had. Please put it back. Zero13:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
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@Riskit 4 a biskit: This talmud is frequently called the Palestinian Talmud in scholarly writing. (Search for "Palestinian Talmud" with quotes at scholar.google.com .) So it is reasonable for the article to say why it is called that. Zero23:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
On reflection
I am going to copy Lebanon, South Africa and Brittany off to the talk page. Probably the Channel Islands too. All of them have the problem you mentioned about Palestine, ie possibly some wannabes, but I don't really see sourced *collaboration* yet, although I think it is there to be found . But it will be petty, so whereas when I first came to the article the weight seemed undue towards eastern Europe, very light on North Africa, it now seems to have gone somewhat too far in the other direction. And Japan, I am not even sure what to say. Too steep a learning curve, which is what I thought of Irgun.
I am going to do one more pass to try to reference what is there in Europe -- I have already done several passes on all three continents -- then start from the other end, looking for highly-cited work that may not be included. Does that sound like a good plan? It's impolite of course to ask people what exactly their level of expertise and areas of knowledge are, but in this very fraught instance I'm just going to say that you seem to have some topic knowledge, probably broader and deeper than mine, and definitely much much more so in the middle east. So I humbly ask that to the extent you can, please do continue to review what we're doing and let us know if we're citing discredited authors or anything else that would be embarrassing. I have no particular agenda to prove anything in the area, except that I know more about Vichy France than the rest of it due to my educational history. But I am not a historian.
I feel like I am treading on dangerous ground, but the article does desperately need improvement, and I have done big messy cleanups before. So...I will not ping you more than I have to, but I'm about to write some more questions on the talk page and should you feel so moved, your attention there would be welcome. Oh, and if you are interested, there is a question at RSN about the Blue Police, but it's had a couple of answers, so as I sometimes say, don't spend more time on this than you want to. Thanks Elinruby (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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I agree with your statement on ArbCom. Also it's worth noting what USHMM is actually saying former Soviet prisoners of war (POWs) of various nationalities or Ukrainian and Polish civilians, it doesn't determine their ethnicity, only the fact that before 1939 they were citizens of Poland, so most likely west Ukrainians. Ukrainian civilians refer probably to the Ukrainian SSR citizens in its pre-1939 borders Marcelus (talk) 15:12, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Another thank you: This time massacre at Kolo
Thank you for your ArbCom explanation about my edit (a very long time ago). It felt odd to be named in the first place, and it's very pleasant that you straightened things out. To the point, I'd like to draw your attention to my comment on the same page:
@Horse Eye's Back: Thanks for the mention of my counter-disruptive efforts three years ago. Such work is rarely acknowledged and so I appreciate it. For the same reason that you swam away from that one issue then, I am almost totally retired from Misplaced Pages now. But let me be clear, this is definitely not simply a case of zealous 'nationalists' versus the noble souls who crusade against them. The zealous 'crusaders' are sometimes so convinced of their own virtue that they assume bad faith in content when there is no such thing, and go ahead and disrupt the topic area based on their own projections of malice. A notorious case was Icewhiz, another case was Varsovian, both AFAIR indefinitely blocked or permanently banned from the topic area. At times, IMHO SlimVirgin was one of those problematic crusaders too. Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines already got it right long ago, that it takes two to tango. Many trolls have their opposite number, with which they exchange bait. Personal psychology becomes relevant because that dynamic becomes an addiction to conflict, with the impossible objective of winning. Btw I entirely concur with you about Piotrus and hereby vouch for him too. -Chumchum7 (talk) 06:53, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
I've been reading quite a bit lately about the police system in occupied Poland, so I have some knowledge on the subject. There were two formations in the German formations called the Gendarmerie: Gendarmerie des Reiches (essentially uniformed police serving in villages and small towns, part of the Orpo) and the Feldgendarmerie, which was essentially Military Police within the Wehrmacht. So the gendarmes may have been part of the Wehrmacht.
The second issue is the participation of Poles. Poles were generally not allowed to serve in the German police or the Wehrmacht. Volksdeutsche could not do so either. Volksdeutsche could serve in the Sonderdienst (created, however, only in May 1940) or in the Hilfspolizei; only after good service did they receive Reichsdeutsche status and the right to serve in the regular police force. Ethnic Poles had this path closed. The conscription of Volksdeutsche to the Wehrmacht began on a massive scale only in 1942, before that it was sporadic.
It is very possible that those in reference ("were all born in Poland") were Polish Germans who left Poland for Germany before 1939 and returned with the army (this was quite common) or members of the Volksdeutscher Selbstschutz, an organization composed of Germans living in Poland responsible for horrific crimes. It is also possible that by "gendarme" this witness meant any uniformed German who was not a Wehrmacht soldier (and the Gendarmerie des Reiches was the formation that Poles encountered most often). (pinging @Ealdgyth, because I comment on it on her talk page before making more reading) Marcelus (talk) 12:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
@Marcelus and Chumchum7: Thanks. I'm having trouble confirming the information at Yahadmap from any other source. The best I have found from that early period is mention of murder but not mention of a large scale massacre. Can either of you read Yiddish? There's a memorial volume called Sefer Kolo that might have something but the only version I can find online is the original Yiddish version or here. There is also a Hebrew edition I can't find and a very partial English edition that doesn't include the Holocaust years. I think that the text should be retired from the article if no confirmation can be found. Zero13:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
"Do końca 1939 r. Niemcy rozstrzelali ok. 300 Żydów." -> "By the end of 1939 the Germans executed about 300 Jews." (RS: ) Marcelus (talk) 13:10, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
@Marcelus: Good find! That page looks more reliable than the Yahadmap one, so maybe it should be used instead? Incidentally, though I have done bulk reading on Holocaust history I have no intention of editing there; my main interest Israel-Palestine gives me more than enough trouble. Zero13:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
And a speedy find. Which begs an important question: what does it say about perception and attitude that an editor took a single uncontroversial edit from years ago and dragged it into ArbCom, instead of (1) fixing it, (2) reverting with explanation or (3) taking it to the talk page? For me, it illustrates our common problem of presumptuous crusading as over-reaction to falsely-perceived trolling. The nationalists and crusaders take each others' bait. Hence my near-retirement. -Chumchum7 (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Unfortunately, most of the evidences pointed out by @Ealdgyth are of this type, as I already wrote her about in a discussion a few days ago (link); unfortunately, it seems to me this is partly due to ignorance of the subject. That is, I had not heard of the massacre in Koło before, but knowing where this city lies and what happened in the region in 1939, it immediately seemed to me that it is as plausible that such an event took place. Marcelus (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Model discussion of the source
Thank you for saying that, because that is what I was trying for. However, the link did not go where I expected. This is likely my fault, as I recognize the link as something I had in my sandbox. Let me get you the correct link. Assuming I understand your point. .Elinruby (talk) 08:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
@Elinruby: That doesn't work for me, maybe because it's a mobile link and I'm on desktop. How about this link? I'm finding the process confusing, and for some comments I can't tell if they are intended as criticism or praise. Zero08:19, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
maybe. We're talking about the RSN thread on the Blue Police and the question of whether the source supported the "death" statement, right? it's in archive 398 and the title of the thread is "The Blue Police in Poland" Elinruby (talk) 08:33, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
ok, well at least we're talking about the same thing.
For now, I guess disregard my comment about the link, and I'll come back and tell you where I go if it's still doing it after I reboot. Or open an OTRS or something.
So back to the main point: thank you for saying that, because that was my point. The main one, anyway. This is what I was trying to send when I had an edit conflict: I for one am pretty traumatized by the war in Ukraine articles. Do not want to go through a 17th or 18th iteration of that, especially if I can't talk about it and have to AGF all over again. If you're asking about *my* last post, the answer is both. I am trying to be fair while retaining all the shades of grey.
(The next day) the link you give above with the displaytext "this link" is correct, and goes to the correct section of archive 398.
The one in your question to me at ArbCom goes to the top of archive 375, as verified by the url. I don't mean to bludgeon you about this, but if you think that the RSN thread about the Blue Police is a model discussion of content, then I am very gratified as its author and would like to see this (IMHO) very important point given the proper weight by arbitrators, which is more likely if the link goes to the discussion you are describing. Thanks for your attention to this Elinruby (talk) 05:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
As for the buffer error, presumably at some point you looked at that archive, shrug, and were thinking of saying something to somebody about something in it. Common issue based on call center experience. Real answer depends on whether you were using a mouse, but I don't think you are asking for that much detail, are you? Elinruby (talk) 05:51, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I have recently blanked the portion of your evidence submission that was not moved to analysis. Having read it a couple of times it seems far more like analysis than evidence, including the fact that it was directed towards other editors rather than arbitrators. You would be welcome to post any/all of the content that was there at an existing analysis section (or if no section has been created, new). Please let me know if you have any questions about this or what we're looking for in evidence/analysis. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
<page stalker>, yeah, and given that you have 260k+ edits on en.wp, they would have least had to have gone through 200000 of your edits in order to find that -one- edit. My oh my, I must confess I'm in absolute awe over their industriousness! Huldra (talk) 20:51, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
You protected this page, and the article, in June 2014 following oversight actions on both. Do you believe continued protection of the talk page is warranted? 67.180.143.89 (talk) 23:31, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I removed the protection from the talk page. The article remains semiprotected, but according to the ARBPIA rules autoconfirmed status is not enough to edit there anyway. Zero01:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
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Hello Zero0000. I am the declared COI editor for Nefesh B'Nefesh. I've seen your editing on Israel and Jewish-related content on Misplaced Pages, and would appreciate your help with the publication of this article for Rabbi Yehoshua Fass, the founder of Nefesh B'Nefesh. In 2021, a discussion about a previous draft resulted in a redirect. This new draft is significantly expanded and reflects the extensive coverage Rabbi Fass has garnered over the years. I'd be grateful for your assistance and input in creating an independent article for Rabbi Fass. Thank you LA for NBN (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
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Regarding my inappropriate reply to you on Talk:There was no such thing as Palestinians
Hello,
I'm contacting you here for two reasons:
1. I want to directly and unreservedly apologise for for my inappropriate criticism of your motivations. You are completely right, and I'm grateful for your clear explanation of why that is the case.
2. As a non-extended-confirmed editor, I have just realised that I have violated policy by involving myself in discussion in the first place.
As far as I can tell, I have therefore violated two policies. As a relatively inexperienced editor, I'm not sure what to do next. Is there a formal procedure via which I can effectively report myself for policy violations? Foxmilder (talk) 01:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
@Foxmilder: Don't worry about the comments made in haste and thanks for the apology. Non-extended-confirmed editors were permitted to take part in talk page discussions until 9 days ago; now only edit requests are permitted. Cheers. Zero03:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I did not know that, so thanks — again — for explaining.
Your patience and tolerance set a good example. Next time I'm tempted to say something stupid on a talk page, I will endeavour to keep these virtues in mind.
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Hey Zero0000
It seems you reverted my revision claiming that since Paul=small and Saul=asked for, that Paul did change his name
This is somewhat irrelevant. It was common practice in that era for people to have two names, one which was their Hebrew given name and then another name that sounded more "greek". These were frequently very similar in phonetics, but not in meaning.
@PuckSR: I don't have an opinion on the facts, but only noticed that your edit summary "Paul is just the Latinized version of Saul" is incorrect. The religious site you name doesn't come close to satisfying Misplaced Pages's requirements for a reliable source. However, the issue is peripheral to that particular article, so there is no need to resolve it there. Zero22:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Ah, I see what you were saying.
I meant "latinized" in the sense of an Anglicized name. As someone named Johoviak might anglicize their name to "John". I didnt mean to convey that it was a latin translation of the name. As for the source, I didn't think it needed to be a reliable source, as I wasn't making a positive assertions. Even the wikipedia entry to Paul https://en.wikipedia.org/Paul_the_Apostle#Names clarifies that this is a common misunderstanding that seems to have slipped into the Christian persecution text. PuckSR (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
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Arbitration
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My comments on the talk page related to the article, not to the topic itself in general.
Furthermore, they cited key legal documents and provisions. Consideration of such documents and analysis were constructive criticism of the subject area I identified in the article, which were offered to improve the article.
Ultimately, we must be mindful that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that must tell the truth and be as factual as possible, even when, (and especially when) the truth and facts may not be popular.
You and other editors should not revert unless the edits are disruptive. Disruptive comments should not include those that are well supported by relevant legal documentation and analysis.
Actions to revert a page should require a strong showing and effectuated only with due consideration and restraint.
The talk page drives and shapes discourse relating to the article, which may lead to edits to improve the article. These improvements redound to the benefit of the public and of democracy itself.
Where as here, reverting talk on the page I made in good faith and which pertained to key issues relating to the article, stultifies discourse. Such actions lead to legitimate claims of censorship, which violates Misplaced Pages's policy.
You also failed to notify me that you reverted the page. The best policy is, if you have a concern, to discuss it with me first before taking action. If we have a disagreement, we can mutually agree to seek the opinion of a neutral third party.
@Biolitblue: I don't make the rules. WP:ARBECR is very clear on what non-ec editors like yourself are allowed to do, and your edit did not conform to those rules. If you want another opinion, ask a different administrator. There is a list here. Zero04:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The only requirement I can discern is that the editor's content on the Talk page must not be "disruptive."
I interpret disruptive as gas lighting, pushing an agenda, offering evidence which is irrelevant or off-topic, or arguments that are logically spurious or unsourced.
I stated that "he legality section needs development and a higher location in the article." The only reasonable inference is that the documents and analysis furnished in the body of the talk was a proposed edit to further develop the legality section.
The legality section is paramount because it determines the respective rights and obligations of the respective parties not just in the Mandate, but over time. Where as here, summarily claiming that the legal aspects have been debated by scholars and then listing in footnotes sections of books where scholarly debate is purportedly found is insufficient. In fact, it comes across as subterfuge and a way to obviate the need for proper discussion.
As a policy of Misplaced Pages, Misplaced Pages has to be accessible to the average reader. A great majority of readers will not pick up these books at the library or purchase them, and the "scholarly" analysis might be too abstruse.
Without the editing requested, it is NOT Neutral: because it omits key aspects and documents pertaining to the legality of the Mandate. Along these same lines, it is not broad in its coverage and does not discuss all relevant aspects.
As it stands, with no disrespect intended to the author and other contributors, I disagree with this article's rating as a "good article." It is possible that if the legality section were more developed, the article could not only fulfill the requirements of a good article but could even become a feature article.
My proposed edits might be WP:NOR until others have had the opportunity to examine the documents, analysis, and conclusions. If the conclusions are rejected as WP:NOR upon review, then the sections and discrepancies in the documents could still be highlighted without violating the rule. Some other content dealing with the McMahon-Hussein correspondence does not violate the rule if I remove the conclusion and let the sources quotes speak for themselves. I have more quotes on the matter. Biolitblue (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Nableezy ban
Hi. Not sure I was very helpful there. I wish I can be of some help. On a different level: what would really constitute friendly help here? Anyone who is so personally involved in this huge tragedy should be helped to take a break from it - in real life. Wiki comes next. Apparently being glued to the screens can produce more PTSD and depression than facing some of the horrible things happening there in person. If we don't manage to help him out of the ban, it might turn out to be a blessing in disguise. But then again, a) he must know it, and b) his editing, the stress involved, and the additional time it keeps him stuck in this unending hell is probably the least of his stress factors right now. Try to help him on a different level if you can, maybe ask Nishidani to write to him as well. It's far too much for me too. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I wasn't asking for that. My focus was on Nableezy as a person rather than an editor. That is, if you have closer contact to him than I do. If not, I'm sorry I brought it up. Arminden (talk) 13:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Sometimes, the best thing that we can do for ourselves is to step-away from the issues that put us at variance with our fellow editors (even if it is only for a short period). Personally speaking, for me, it was good to step-away from the Arab-Israeli conflict - because of its inherent contentious nature. Nableezy has shown understanding to my own shortcomings in the ARBPIA area, and he has volunteered to act as a mentor for me, even though we share different political views. There is something to be admired about his ability to give to his disputant the benefit of the doubt.Davidbena (talk) 21:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
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Do you think a 1986 article in Shomron Studies is reliable for claiming the ethnic history of people across Palestine? nableezy - 17:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Nableezy: It's a hard question because I don't have the article in question. The author Grossman was a well-known demographer. What concerns me is the precision of the reports; the fact that a family or two has a tradition of coming from another place does not mean that the tradition is true, and it doesn't entitle us to write that the village population came from that other place. But it is hard to argue this without the source. Zero00:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Grossman (2011), Rural Arab Demography and Early Jewish Settlement in Palestine: Distribution and Population Density During the Late Ottoman and Early Mandate Periods has stuff from the journal, idk if that could be used instead. Selfstudier (talk) 10:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
I have that book and it could be useful for generalities, but it has little in the way of village by village details. I understand that the Hebrew edition was more expansive. Zero12:31, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
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I'm writing on behalf of the IP Server who started to edit at "British currency in the Middle East" on 29th March this year. The editor suddenly found the IP server range blocked, while being accused of being a blocked editor called TheCurrencyGuy. The editor at the IP server categorically denies being TheCurrencyGuy, doesn't know TheCurrencyGuy, and has never interacted with him. Meanwhile, a editor called JMF has been on the talk page at "British currency in the Middle East" stating that at least some of the recent edits were definitely done by TheCurrencyGuy. Well, so he says, but not one of the edits carried out by the blocked IP server since 29th March was done by TheCurrencyGuy, and it doesn't appear that anybody else edited during that period. It would be interesting to see what JMF's evidence is, but meanwhile he has reverted all the hard work and careful research that was carried out since 29th March. The article is now in an inferior state with many factual inaccuracies that had been corrected by the blocked IP server. 77.99.242.50 (talk) 09:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
JMF's advice to get an account is what I would advise too. And the best way to avoid text being removed for being unsourced is to add sources at the same time as the text. Zero03:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
An account cannot be created until it is acknowledged that the blocked IP server is not a sockpuppet of TheCurrencyGuy. Meanwhile, the editor using the blocked IP server categorically denies the accusation, and says that this is the only important issue at the moment. Can you please help to have the investigation re-visited. The blocked IP editor has checked the editing history of TheCurrencyGuy to see what the alleged similarities are, and has noted that TheCurrencyGuy began his editing days by correcting the format of a foreign currency on some article, and then over time did likewise with many other currency units, and his focus seemed to be on spelling and formatting. The blocked IP server would like to point out that this style has got nothing in common with matters relating to the history of currency in the Middle East. If you can get the IP server unblocked, then the editor will be able to discuss the matter with you directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.242.50 (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
The IP server that was blocked at the same time as https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Jahor12345 is not connected. Both were editing simultaneously on different articles during the morning of 3rd April 2024. That was the session when you became involved on the talk page about the meaning of the word miri. The IP server began with detailed edits about the Egyptian pound, and then around noon, switched over to British currency in the Middle East. Meanwhile, editor Jahor12345 was editing across a wide range of currency topics, mainly reformatting. The editing styles are completely different. The IP server carried out edits at 1204hrs and 1206hrs, while Jahor12345 carried out an edit in the middle of that two minute period at 1205hrs. They couldn't possibly be the same person.81.134.217.27 (talk) 13:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
You are not convincing me, and anyway I do not have the authority to overrule the results of WP:SPI. I don't see the slightest reason why someone can't make an account if they want to edit. Zero03:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Attribution
Please read WP:RSP on MondoWeiss: Mondoweiss is a news website operated by the Center for Economic Research and Social Change (CERSC), an advocacy organization. There is no consensus on the reliability of Mondoweiss. Editors consider the site biased or opinionated, and its statements should be attributed. It should either not be used at all — or used with great caution — for biographies of living people. We need to attribute in text when we use it. Removing attribution, as you've done in a number of articles, goes against the community consensus. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
@Bobfrombrockley: It means that the authors of articles in MW should be attributed for their claims. It doesn't say "stuff in MW should be attributed to MW", it says that statements in MW "should be attributed", which always means that opinions or claims should be attributed to whoever is giving the opinion or making the claim (note the meaning of "attributed" in the link). The only time it implies that MW as a magazine should be attributed for something is when the article at hand is when MW itself is the author (e.g. an editorial). Also, if MW was to be attributed it would have to be like "according to MW", which is not what you have been writing — what you have been writing is not an attribution at all per WP jargon but rather a part of the citation placed in the text against usual practice. Zero13:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reply. I might take this to another forum as I had never understood it in this way so would welcome clarification. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
To someone who was killed in a "brief massacre", its "briefness" would not be the slightest mitigating factor. My recommendation would be to avoid incongruous dimunitizing expressions such as "brief massacre", "slight temporary genocide", or "gentle rape" as arguments for your edits, whether to the Kfar Etzion massacre article or elsewhere on Misplaced Pages... AnonMoos (talk) 21:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Keep on searching the thesaurus for oxymoronic adjective-noun combinations like "non-violent murder" and "tiny little extermination campaign" all you want, but you won't be improving Misplaced Pages by doing so. AnonMoos (talk) 00:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Two kisses on the same day are enough. Now kindly improve my user page by pissing off. Go on, shoo. Zero01:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
I replied on the Mandatory flag thread above (I also quickly got tired of that discussion in 2022, though there was more to say). AnonMoos (talk) 11:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
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Hi. I see that you reverted my contribution to the page about antisemitism on Harvard’s campus after 2020. I'm aware of the extended confirmed restriction and contentious topics procedure regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict. My intention was not to post on that conflict but to report on important antisemitic incidents happening on college campuses, which I understood was the point of this page. I get that these protests are influenced, in part, by the Arab-Israeli conflict, but is there a way to acknowledge the catalyst while avoiding violating the extended confirmed restriction and contentious topics procedure relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Do you have any recommendations on how I can reword some of my content to un-revert it and restore it to the page? Thank you very much. HistoryBook123 (talk) 18:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
@HistoryBook123: They aren't just "influenced" by the A-I conflict, they are part of it. Anyway the ARBPIA topic designation says "broadly interpreted" so there is really no doubt that the material is included. Your only option is to put an edit proposal on the talk page. I didn't make the rules and if I don't enforce them for sure someone else will. Your edit also contained opinion written in wikivoice so it wouldn't have lasted long even if you had the required credentials. Zero04:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
False Accusation of Sockpuppetry
Regarding the blocked IP server that I used in April to make edits at British currency in the Middle East, I've opened up this special account in order to help resolve the situation. I can't edit again util the administrator who blocked my address revisits the original investigation. But even with this special account, I still can't seem to be able to edit on their talk page. I appreciate that you yourself don't have the authority to over rule that result, but I'd be grateful if you could contact Bbb23 on my behalf and ask them if they could take a look at the evidence again. I can assure you that I am definitely not TheCurrencyGuy. I've looked at his edits. His style and purpose was quite different from mine, and besides I did show you evidence last month that we were both editing at the exact same time on different articles. I'd be most grateful if you could help. Specialrequestaccount (talk) 08:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I've put the message like this, but I seem to have formatted it wrongly. Can you please help me to format it and I'll post it again,
{{To|Bbb23}}I'd be grateful if you could contact me here regarding a block on my IP server which you did on 12th April. Somebody alleged that I am a sockpuppet of an editor called TheCurrencyGuy. I am assuredly not however. The accusation involved another editor with a name something like Jahor12345 who was also blocked for being a sockpuppet of TheCurencyGuy. I have no idea whether they were or not, but I did find evidence that Jahor12345 was editing at exactly the same time as me on different articles. The only thing we seem to have in common is the fact that we were editing on currency related articles, but not with the same style or purpose. I look forward to hearing from you.~~~~
It doesn't appear that the blocking administrator is going to reply. Is there some kind of notice board that I can go to in order to highlight this issue? I think it's quite important. I was editing in good faith and suddenly blocked, just because I happened to be editing on currency related articles and because there is a blocked editor called TheCurrencyGuy. But there is something very seriously wrong when those involved aren't open to discussing the evidence. The blocking administrator must know fine well that the IP servers don't match. Specialrequestaccount (talk) 12:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
You can write at WP:AN/I but it's possible nobody will be interested, as are there are currently no sanctions against your account. You'll need to explain everything with diffs and not assume that anyone is aware of it. Zero14:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks again. I'll maybe do that. Although there are no sanctions against this account, it's still impossible for me to edit on the Middle East currency articles that I had been editing on with the IP server, because I would be immediately blocked again, based on the belief of Bbb23 that I am a sockpuppet of TheCurrencyGuy. Until that belief has been officially debunked by, either Bbb23, or by some other administrator, I will have no future in the project. This began in March when I was studying the schism between the Egyptian piastre and the Turkish piastre in 1844. I had obtained books on the topic and I also referred to the relevant Misplaced Pages articles. These articles were quite useful, but it was clear that they contained many inaccuracies. I set about correcting the information in these articles and I thought I had got them into a much more accurate state. I was nearly finished, and about to make an edit relating to the Saudi Riyal when suddenly I found myself blocked, having been accused of abusively indulging in sockpuppetry. And soon after that, another editor wiped out every single bit of work that I had done, expressly stating that the reason wasn't based on the content on the edits, but on the grounds that he believed me to be a sockpuppet of TheCurrencyGuy. It's turned me pretty sour about the project, but I'm still holding out hope that there must surely be some administrator who can check out that my IP server was different from TheCurrencyGuy's, and that likely we are in totally different geographical locations, and that the entire focus of our edits is quite different, and that at one point we were editing on different articles at exactly the same time. There is something seriously wrong with the system if this cannot be ascertained, and that people simply get blocked because they edit on an article that is of interest to another editor who has been blocked.Specialrequestaccount (talk) 18:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Misandry noticeboard discussion
Hey Zero, please give me your input on the Misandry discussion. I just can't keep arguing with these people anymore. It feels like we need a way bigger team of admins involved. Someone just told me "admins don't have any special authority in content disputes." ImmersiveOne (talk) 14:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
request to Strike your Comment in the infada talk page.
can you please strike booth the non ECR comment as well as your response in the Talk page?
when you leave it this way it seams like you care more about "winning" wikipedia and getting your pov heard then to actually Resolve the content dispute
Certainly not. First, it is only permitted to remove edit summaries under very limited circumstances and this is not one of them. Second, as you well know, you are limited to edit requests and your other comments are not permitted. I didn't make the rules, but I am allowed to enforce them. So, whatever "dispute" is happening there, you are not a party to it. You can always make yourself an account and work up to EC if you want to participate. Zero22:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for your help with navigating the stages to appeal the block. I think the matter has now been resolved. It seems that TheCurrencyGuy is geographically close to me and that contributed towards the suspicion. I may or may not return to editing, but if I do, I will either use the IP server again or create another account with a more suitable username. Specialrequestaccount (talk) 10:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
There are some transcripts in Law and the Arab-Israeli Conflict The Trials of Palestine Steven E. von Zipperstein if you haven't seen those. Selfstudier (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
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Is https://unifil.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/unifilpresskit.pdf (the section Shab'a Farms on p.6) in accord with your understanding of the current position?
Anyway it does say "With the UN having placed the Shebaa Farms area south of the Blue Line at the time the line was established, Israel considers them part of the Golan, rather than Lebanon. Hence, it would only negotiate with Syria, and address the issue in Syrian-Israeli peace talks on the Golan." Salud. Selfstudier (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
No, not at all, was just checking that it was still current, apart from that, I saw you said you wanted a later source for the Israeli position, will it do? Selfstudier (talk) 11:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Hi Zero, just wanted to chat about this page. By way of intro, I'm a clinical psychologist with 30 years experience. I would respectfully suggest that to not include this account, reported in great detail by The New Yorker from interviewing Loftus, would leave this page incomplete and lacking encyclopaedic credibility. For those of us in the profession this revelation changed everything about Loftus's position. It was quite incredible that she herself gave one of the best examples of not remembering and then recalling a traumatic memory.
Her word for word quote “the memory flew out at me, out of the blackness of the past, hitting me full force” is a clear and classic account of recovering a repressed memory - you don't get better . All a repressed traumatic memory is is a memory that was not remembered for a period of time and then it is when it is triggered - it's not a complex psychological concept. I'm happy to work with you on wording you're comfortable with as a full account is more important than the wording. I did try to rely on attributed quotes rather than use my own words. You might like to discuss with a friendly psychologist. Cheers Penny Pennylewis (talk) 22:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
@Pennylewis: You need to read the whole source. "But Loftus never forgot what happened. She had shared the memory with Geoff shortly after they married. “It wasn’t ‘Oh, my God, I was abused,’” he said. “It was more like ‘What’s more, I myself was abused.’" It is not for us to interpret the source according to what we would like it to mean. The source does not say that she had repressed the incident from her childhood until it suddenly came out in a courtroom, so we aren't allowed to say that either per WP:NOR. Nobody except Loftus herself can say that, and per WP:NOR it doesn't make a difference what your expertise is, sorry. Yes, I know that people who dispute Loftus' views would just love it if she proved herself wrong, but that's something to argue in professional venues, not here. Zero01:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
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