Misplaced Pages

Talk:War of 1812

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wowzers122 (talk | contribs) at 02:41, 1 September 2024 (Flagicons: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 02:41, 1 September 2024 by Wowzers122 (talk | contribs) (Flagicons: new section)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
    This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the War of 1812 article.
    This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
    Article policies
    Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL
    Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29Auto-archiving period: 15 days 
    This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
    Former featured article candidateWar of 1812 is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
    Article milestones
    DateProcessResult
    March 1, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
    On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on June 18, 2004, June 18, 2005, June 18, 2006, June 18, 2007, December 24, 2010, and June 18, 2018.
    This  level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
    It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
    WikiProject iconMilitary history: British / Canadian / European / North America / United States / Napoleonic era C‑class
    WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
    CThis article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.
    B checklist
    This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
    1. Referencing and citation: criterion not met
    2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
    3. Structure: criterion met
    4. Grammar and style: criterion met
    5. Supporting materials: criterion met
    Associated task forces:
    Taskforce icon
    British military history task force
    Taskforce icon
    Canadian military history task force
    Taskforce icon
    European military history task force
    Taskforce icon
    North American military history task force
    Taskforce icon
    United States military history task force
    Taskforce icon
    Napoleonic era task force (c. 1792 – 1815)
    WikiProject iconUnited States: Military history / History High‑importance
    WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
    HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
    Taskforce icon
    This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - U.S. military history task force.
    Taskforce icon
    This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. history (assessed as High-importance).
    WikiProject iconCanada: Ontario / Quebec / History / Military High‑importance
    WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related
    HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
    Taskforce icon
    This article is supported by WikiProject Ontario.
    Taskforce icon
    This article is supported by WikiProject Quebec.
    Taskforce icon
    This article is supported by WikiProject History of Canada.
    Taskforce icon
    This article is supported by the joint Canadian military and military history task force
    WikiProject iconUnited Kingdom Mid‑importance
    WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom
    MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
    WikiProject iconIndigenous peoples of North America Low‑importance
    WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Native Americans, Indigenous peoples in Canada, and related indigenous peoples of North America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indigenous peoples of North AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaTemplate:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaIndigenous peoples of North America
    LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
    WikiProject iconEuropean history Low‑importance
    WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history
    LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
    Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by a media organization:
    Section sizes
    Section size for War of 1812 (47 sections)
    Section name Byte
    count
    Section
    total
    (Top) 9,610 9,610
    Origins 53 53
    Forces 13 5,989
    American 2,473 2,473
    British 2,112 2,112
    Indigenous peoples 1,391 1,391
    Declaration of war 3,990 3,990
    Course of war 595 78,517
    Unpreparedness 3,424 3,424
    War in the West 22 11,720
    Invasions of Canada, 1812 3,417 3,417
    American Northwest, 1813 2,780 2,780
    American West, 1813–1815 5,501 5,501
    War in the American Northeast 39 17,522
    Niagara frontier, 1813 5,701 5,701
    St. Lawrence and Lower Canada, 1813 2,514 2,514
    Niagara and Plattsburgh campaigns, 1814 6,908 6,908
    Occupation of Maine 2,360 2,360
    Chesapeake campaign 1,511 6,949
    Burning of Washington 2,704 2,704
    Siege of Fort McHenry 2,734 2,734
    Southern theatre 292 14,861
    Creek War 6,327 6,327
    Gulf Coast 8,242 8,242
    The war at sea 21 21,004
    Background 1,567 1,567
    Opening strategies 1,644 1,644
    Single-ship actions 8,921 8,921
    Privateering 3,636 3,636
    British blockade 5,215 5,215
    Freeing and recruiting slaves 2,442 2,442
    Treaty of Ghent 5,616 5,616
    Losses and compensation 2,854 2,854
    Long-term consequences 1,832 13,317
    Bermuda 1,094 1,094
    The Canadas 1,370 1,370
    Indigenous nations 3,151 3,151
    United Kingdom 1,737 1,737
    United States 4,133 4,133
    Historiography 84 84
    See also 301 301
    Notes 28 28
    References 35 35
    Bibliography 56,092 56,092
    Further reading 11,880 11,880
    External links 202 231
    40px|Notice]]This article is prone to ]. Please monitor the ] and ] sections.

    ] markup removed; cannot link (help)||style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;"|29||style="text-align:right;color:transparent;"|29

    Total 188,597 188,597
    This page is for discussions about changes to the article. There has been considerable debate over "who won the war" (please refer to /Archive 8, /Archive 9, /Archive 14, /Who Won? and Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812 for the most recent discussions). Historians and the editors have various viewpoints on which side won, or if there was a stalemate. For more information, see the section *Memory and historiography, Historian's views*. However, the consensus, based on historical documentation, is that the result of the war was per the Treaty of Ghent, i.e., status quo ante bellum, which, in plain English means "as things were before the war." Please do not use this page to continue the argument that one or the other side "won" unless you are able to present citations from reliable and verifiable sources to support your claims. Per the principle of neutral point of view and due and undue weight, the article can only claim a side's victory if there is a verifiable general agreement.


    Infobox and belligerents, with Spain on the list

    As things as they currently are, I have 3 observations

    1. Strength of US Allies is only 125 Choctaw. Surely, there must be more numbers for the various tribes?
    2. The Regency of Algiers has been added in good faith, but I do not think this should remain for much longer.
    3. Spain is listed. Given the Peninsular War was taking place, it did not have the resources to actively intervene, to launch an offensive, in overseas territories. (Simon Bolivar took advantage of Spain's weakness at this time.) A jittery Governor of Pensacola, Mateo González Manrique had his territory and his neutrality violated by the British officer Edward Nicolls, then Jackson came along and violated the neutrality. When Nicolls left, he took half the Spanish garrison away, which was stranded elsewhere for the remainder of the conflict.

    There is no declaration of war on the part of Spain against the US, or vice versa. There was effectively a border dispute with the Battle of Pensacola (1814), but the impotence of the Spanish was not going to see any ongoing conflict on their part.

    I don't see the US Navy listed as pro-Arab forces in the Six Day War, and I don't see the Brazilian armed forces, or the Finns, as combatants in the War in the Pacific from 1942 to 1945.

    Spain has been mentioned in passing in the past

    https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_22#Spain

    https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_20#Infobox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_8#Spain?%60


    I think as it currently stands, it is misleading, and implies Spanish forces engaged from 1813 through 1814. I am only aware of the capture of Pensacola on November 7, 1814 as the one time Spanish forces were engaged against the US Army during the War of 1812. I don't think being sandwiched between the fiery and ill-tempered personalities of Jackson and Nicolls was a particularly appealing prospect! Keith H99 (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

    • Where one side fights two separate wars at the same time, it does not mean that they are the same war or that the belligerents against a common belligerents are cobelligerents - unless the sources explicitly tell us otherwise. That two things happen at the same time does not mean they are the one thing. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
    Per sources that I currently have available at hand (I'll find more later), but I've read about the British-Spanish alliance for years now.
    "The Slaves Gamble: Choosing Sides in the War of 1812 by Gene Allen Smith (pg156)
    "The rising fear that Andrew Jackson's army would soon descend on Pensascola convinced West Florida governor Mateo González Manrique to request British assistance, and within days the entire British Gulf force occupied Pensacola. Nicolls hoisted the Union Jack over the city in mid-August 1814 and declared himself the military commander of the city." Per Smith, the plan by Nicolls at Pensacola was to use the British forces (including the Colonial Marines), native tribes, and any available Spanish forces (with townspeople). The Spanish slaves were recruited from the city and this was a cause of friction because of their alliance.
    "The Slaves Gamble: Choosing Sides in the War of 1812 by Gene Allen Smith (pg157)
    "Cochrane had instructed Nicholls not to recruit Spanish slaves because Britain and Spain were then allies."
    "The Maroons of Prospect Bluff and Their Quest for Freedom in the Atlantic World by Nathaniel Millett (pg47)
    "“For centuries Spanish Florida had relied on blacks and Indians to defend itself against the aggressive encroachments of the British and the Anglo Americans. Now the Spanish were forced to rely on the British to defend them against the United States in an alliance that would have mystified earlier generations on both sides of the border." Millett notes that West Florida (Mobile) was mentioned by the British as part of the United States's violated of Article IX in the Treaty of Ghent.
    "The Maroons of Prospect Bluff and Their Quest for Freedom in the Atlantic World by Nathaniel Millett (pg88)
    “In the same month that the war officially ended, Alexander Cochrane expressed an opinion shared by many British politicians and military leaders when he wrote that Britain must take active measures, "for relieving West Florida from the usurped authority of the American Government (being a colony belonging to Spain) and at the same time to afford to the Indian Nations an opportunity of recovering territories of which they have been so unjustly deprived by the United States." The British feared an American Florida and wanted their Red Stick allies to recover the lands taken from them by the Treaty of Fort Jackson. These two goals were intertwined with the realization that a strong and well-armed Red Stick and Seminole presence in the Southeast represented the most realistic hope for Spain to maintain possession of the Floridas. With this in mind, the British encouraged the Red Sticks to endorse the Treaty of Ghent because of the inclusion of Article 9, calling for the restoration of Indian lands to their 1811 boundaries. Accordingly, Cochrane instructed Nicolls to "tell our Indian Allies that they have been included and that they are placed as to territory as they were in 1811 If the peace shall not be ratified, you will have a large reinforcement sent to you at Apalachicola."
    "The Greatest Fury: The Battle of New Orleans and the Rebirth of America by William C. Davis" (pg333)
    "In fact, Britain's existing alliances with Spain and the Indian tribes complicated adherence to Ghent's territorial provisions. Spain wanted a friendly buffer state between an expansionist United States and its colonial possessions in Texas, Mexico, East Florida, and that part of West Florida east of the Pearl River." Davis ends the paragraph with, "Returning New Orleans or any part of Louisiana defeated both goals and left the Americans poised to spread west across the Mississippi, and east to Spanish East Florida's doorstep. That could only complicate British relations with its Spaniard allies. It came down to the value Whitehall put on those alliance." Davis noted that forces on the ground (Colonel Thorton and Captain Roberts) planned to ransom New Orleans back to President Madison. Bathurst envisioned the possibility of keeping all or part of Louisiana indefinitely.
    "The Greatest Fury: The Battle of New Orleans and the Rebirth of America by William C. Davis" (pg334)
    "Whitehall repeatedly emphasized that the United States had no lawful title to Louisiana. It explicitly told Cochrane and Pakenham they could encourage Louisianans to seek independence from the United States or a return to Spanish dominion so long as they did not promise British assistance or alliance. Pakenham was actually told that New Orleans would probably be handed over to Spain, and Spaniards shared that expectation." Ironic Luck (talk) 21:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
    Britain and Spain were allied against France. I don’t believe there was an alliance against the US and none of the sources you have quoted remotely suggest that there was.--Ykraps (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
    Did France ever plan to attack Pensacola in 1814? I am aware of the British-Spanish alliance against the French. Jackson tested the neutrality of the local Spanish authorities at Pensacola with a flag of truce brought forth by Major Pierre, but he (Pierre) was immediately fired upon. Jackson additionally charged the local Spanish authorities with "providing shelter to British troops" (per Daughan) for his reasoning to storm Pensacola.
    "1812: The War Nobody Won by Albert Martin" (pg142)
    "As soon as the war began, the War Department asked Tennessee's governor for militia units to drive the British out of Florida. Florida at this time belonged to Spain, Britian's ally in the Napoleonic Wars. Although neutral in the American struggle, Spain went out of its way to be "neutral" in favor of Britain. The Royal Navy freely used Florida's harbors, especially Pensacola, as if they were home ports."
    I would add Ronald Drez's book (which also called out the British-Spanish alliance), but I was informed that he is considered non-RS per the current Misplaced Pages standards.
    Here is what I see as a reasonable change: "Spanish Floridas (1814)" instead of "Spain (1813)"
    The Spanish military had abandoned the local Spanish authorities, but this was primarily due to their decline. Professor McDougall notes this in his book:
    "Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History 1585-1828 by Walter A. McDougall" (pg423)
    "The War of 1812 settled the matter. Britain held Canada, but failed to arrest the growth of the United States. Spain gripped her empire with no more than one legal finger. All Indians within reach were vanquished."
    The sources that I note above clearly have it written that there was an alliance between the local Spanish authorities and the British government. And it seems more than coincidental that there were discussions related to U.S. territory upon that British-Spanish alliance. Ironic Luck (talk) 12:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
    I was, of course, referring to a formal Spanish-British alliance; an alliance between the governments of Spain and Britain, not a temporary co-operation between local authorities and British troops, against an American land-grab. I don’t see anything in your sources to suggest the former and, in fact, one specifically states that Spain was neutral in the American struggle.--Ykraps (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
    Martin noted that it was not really neutral, hence he used "neutral" with quotation marks in his book. Spain needed the British support and the local authorities asked for it. The British were driven out; this outcome also hurt their reputation among the allied-Creeks. The books that I cited do not refer to this as a "temporary co-operation." Personally, I see it as fair to change it to Spanish Floridas (1814) as they were the ones whom executed the support for the British. Ironic Luck (talk) 00:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
    Irrespective of Martin's confusion over what the terms of the neutrality were, he notes that they were neutral. Monroe also considered them neutral, writing to Jackson to tell him to not risk war with Spain. You are of course free to propose whatever changes you wish to the infobox. Personally, I would like to see an end to infoboxes entirely, not just here, simply because they cannot convey the whole story accurately.--Ykraps (talk) 07:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
    I think there is more merit with Spanish Florida (1814) than what there currently is.Keith H99 (talk) 18:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
    I agree with the change to "Spanish Florida (1814)" instead of "Spain (1813)" on the belligerents section. Ironic Luck (talk) 07:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
    The Patriot War, which took place at the same time as the War of 1812, appears to be so insignificant that it does not have a corresponding article in the Spanish language!!! Keith H99 (talk) 17:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
    Looking through the references posted here (I admit, I haven't read much on Spain and the war apart from this) it would seem Spain was officially neutral, so should be removed from the infobox as a belligerent. As a comparison, Ireland was officially neutral in WW2, even though it favoured the UK rather than German, but certainly isn't listed as a belligerent against Germany in the WW2 article.Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
    Also, as per User:Cinderella157's comment I had also assumed there must be more US native allies than just 125 Choctaw. I knew the numbers favoured the UK, but only 125???Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
    The belligerent should be changed to "Spanish Florida (1814)" based on the material cited. It's neutral on paper but not in practice; hence Spain (as a country) wanted Louisiana back and Spanish Floridas wanted British protection from the United States. Was there ever an Irish city that Germany military took over and where (local) authorities were legally charged by Germany with "providing shelter to British troops" in comparison? Ironic Luck (talk) 07:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
    Changed to reflect Spanish Florida. I would like to see a reliable source as to Spanish casualties at Pensacola. The most significant outcome was that the Spanish troops were taken elsewhere and marooned for the rest of the conflict. Keith H99 (talk) 18:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    Yep, I support Spanish Florida as well. Makes sense. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

    There was scarcely any War of 1812 content on the Spanish Florida article, which was surprising. There's some conflicting orders from Cochrane to Nicolls. He is to respect Spanish neutrality, yet at the same time he is to enter their territory, parley with the Indians, and recruit them to the British cause. The Spanish were in no position to stop the British, and Manrique saw Jackson as a more credible threat, on the back of recent fighting with the Patriot War and the Creek War. Perfidious Albion or Manifest Destiny, a rock and a hard place. Manrique's judgement went against that of his superior Apodaca, who wanted to maintain Spanish neutrality. Keith H99 (talk) 11:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

    An interesting quote from the article on Pintado
    'Cochrane ordered the return of all slaves and Spanish troops captured by the British to Pensacola aboard one of his ships'
    Do you capture your allies under usual circumstances? The Spanish source did not consider the British to be allies of the Spanish, clearly! Keith H99 (talk) 19:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

    Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2024

    This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

    remove claim about spainbeing on brtiain's side since no citation for it and it is not true. 64.189.18.51 (talk) 07:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

     Partly done: Removed the {{citation needed}} tag as it was not needed. ''']''' (talkcontribs) 12:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
    @CanonNi A cursory google search suggests it is a matter of interpretation. Maybe a note on it? The "casualties" section also lists below 20. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

    Flagicons

    The flagicons should not be removed from the infobox because, as another user pointed out, per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG: "Situations where flag icons may be used in infoboxes include...Summarizing military conflicts" Along with this infobox being a infobox that summarizes a military conflict, the flagicons also serve a useful purpose by showing the flags flown by each of the countries in the war, which is a case of the flagicons conveying "information in addition to the text." Wowzers122 (talk) 02:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

    Categories: