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Current disputes

Nivkh alphabets

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Nivkh alphabets (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Modun (talk · contribs)
• Kwamikagami (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Good day! Initially, the dispute began because of my moderation of the specified article. I just rechecked in what form the link in the specified form has the current alphabet. My other opponent ignored this fact, and began to insist that the letters he replaced are allographs, but no convincing evidence was shown, and for some reason now I have to prove the opposite. My other opponent behaves as if the colonizer knows more than other natives and is trying to teach them to read and write. Sorry, maybe for the unfortunate analogy. But the evidence provided is more like OR.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Either the opponent will provide other, more convincing evidence, or roll back the edits to match the ALREADY EXISTING references in the article.

Summary of dispute by Kwamikagami

These letter variants are allographs, per sources, and both variants are acceptable for the writing of Nivkh and many other languages of Siberia. (For example, ⟨Ң⟩ with a ticked tail and ⟨Ӈ⟩ with a curved tail, and similarly with other letters in the series, e.g Қ/Ӄ and Ҳ/Ӽ.) AFAICT, Modun has failed to provide a single source to the contrary, and is relying solely on WP:TRUTH.

We have as one source, in a discussion about why it was a mistake for Unicode to assign separate characters to these curved ⟨Ӈ⟩ letter variants, and the reasons Unicode has refused to do the same for additional letters (e.g. a curved variant of ⟨Ҷ⟩ che), by an expert in some of the languages in question (namely N. and E. Khanty and Nenets), an account of how a an influential textbook publishing house (Education Ltd.) created the curved-tail glyphs as in-house variants of these letters for their primers, primary-grade textbooks and other materials when publishing in the govt-assigned alphabet. This is part of a series of discussions involving multiple linguists working on these languages. We also have recent govt publications, in Nivkh, using the original ticked (e.g. ⟨Ң⟩) forms of the letters, including formal material such as trade documents. That is, both forms are in use in the modern era. Modun keep providing sources that use the Education variants of the letters, e.g. ⟨Ӈ⟩, as if they somehow negates the other. Modun has reverted the addition of the ticked variants to the alphabet charts and deleted a reference to the Unicode discussion, replacing it with a 'cn' tag.

There's nothing suggesting Nivkh is special in this regard. It's a general feature of these letters across the minority languages of Siberia, no more significant than the difference between double-loop ⟨g⟩ vs script ⟨ɡ⟩ in English, and unusual only in that Unicode (mistakenly) assigned them separate codes.

For Khanty, another language of Siberia that uses some of these letters, we recently found an orthography committee who decided that the curved-tail variants ⟨Ӈ Ԓ⟩ are to be preferred. At the same time, the principle Khanty language journal has gone in the opposite direction, using a third variant, ⟨Ӊ Ӆ⟩ with a diagonal tail. Modun insists these are different alphabets, despite no evidence for that idea, because allographs supposedly do not occur in Cyrillic. When I pointed out the extensive allography between Russian, Serbian and Bulgarian, he said those were "font" differences. Well, these are "font" differences too: Education Ltd created their own font for their textbooks.

Because two graphic variants are used for these letters in Nivkh, both by official sources, both should be included in the article. We should presumably stick to one for the examples for consistency, but the alphabet charts should reflect what people actually use. — kwami (talk) 22:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't say that allographers don't encounter it in Cyrillic. And excuse me, why is the commission for discussing alphabets of one language(s) applicable to another language? It's the same as if we were now discussing the spelling of the English language and why the results would be applicable to other languages ​​(for example, to French, Spanish or other languages).

The source you indicated discusses the Tofa, Khanty and Evenki alphabets, as far as I remember, but there is no mention of the Nivkh alphabet.

This is a direct lie about deletion!

This is what it was like before the rollback: 1, This is what happened after the rollback: 2, 3 and here's what happened next, you added the link LATER!

You can't even provide convincing evidence that these letters are "allographs". This is not a proven fact! Modun (talk) 23:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

These forms are allographs across the board, per RS's. They were part of a general Soviet standardization of the minority languages of Russia and occur in multiple languages.

I would think govt ministry publications in Nivkh would count as evidence that both variants are used in Nivkh. That's also suggested by the history, that the curved variants were created by Education Ltd. after the Nivkh alphabet had been created, and were used in Nivkh material, following the govt-set orthography, by Education Ltd.

Deleting a citation and replacing it with a 'cn' tag is a deletion. Calling that a "lie" doesn't change anything. — kwami (talk) 23:36, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

you bring your conclusions into practice. We do not know for what reasons and why different variants of alphabets were used, and bring this conclusion into practice because these are "allographs" it looks like OR.

here is an example of how you started a "discussion" you deleted the CN column (deleting CN) Modun (talk) 00:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way, here is an excerpt from a discussion about the Khanty countries, where one of your oponets also thinks that this is OR, and at least he is not being disingenuous and does not call things by their proper names. You are inflating an unproven statement as a “fact”. Modun (talk) 00:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, your TRUTH is 'fact', but expert conclusions are 'OR'.

We follow sources. It's as simple as that. If you have RS's to support your claims, great! Let's see them. So far you've provided nothing.

BTW, I just found another example of a Nivx text that uses the original letter forms, this time the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples, bilingual Nivx and Russian. — kwami (talk) 00:45, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Great, the document was published in the old version of the alphabet. Where is the fact that these letters are allographs? I am a moderator and author of a translation of an article from Russian Misplaced Pages. Why do I have to prove anything to you?

I asked you a simple question, can you provide another source somewhere where it is said that the indicated letters are allographs? You are constantly trying to give me that this is a "fact". Well, at least provide another source where this is also indicated. Moreover, in the correspondence you indicated, not all linguists agree with this interpretation, but for some reason you ignore this opinion.

You adjust the practice to your convenient picture. This is already OR. Modun (talk) 01:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Here are some other examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (5-ru), 6.

Practically given by linguists, and no one mentions any "allographs" or the use of any other alphabets at the same time. Everyone consciously uses the same alphabets. But for some reason the opinion of these linguists does not interest you. I doubt that these people made any mistake. No one even mentions the interchangeability of some letters. Modun (talk) 01:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

But it's not in the old alphabet, is it? It's the modern alphabet with all of the letters introduced in 1979, namely Ғ Ӻ Р̌ Ӿ Ў. — kwami (talk) 07:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Nivkh alphabets discussion

Zeroth statement by moderator (Nivkh)

I am ready to try to moderate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A and say that you agree to the ground rules. In particular, do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. It is not resulting in any progress. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors.

The purpose of content dispute resolution is to improve the article, so I will ask a question that I usually ask at the beginning of moderated discussion. Please state concisely what you want to change in the article that the other editor does not want to change, or what you want to leave alone that the other editor wants to change. Do not explain the reasons why you want to change the article or leave it unchanged, at this time. We will go into the reasons later, but at this time I am only asking what the issues are, not why there are issues. I understand that there are issues about original research; we can go into them later. However, if there are issues about the reliability of sources, please state them at this time, so that we can ask about them at the reliable source noticeboard.

If there are multiple points in the article that are in dispute, please provide a concise list.

Please state concisely what the content issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I agree. Let's try. Modun (talk) 02:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Summary below. — kwami (talk) 06:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Nivkh)

Summary of Kwami's position: There are two possible pathways, depending on which of us the sources support. Of course, it's possible that RSs might contradict each other. I make three proposals: what I would like to see if I'm correct, what I'd like to see if Modun is correct, and a second issue of using proper alphabetic letters rather than punctuation marks for the Nivx alphabet.

If I'm correct, there are duplicate Unicode characters for several Cyrillic letters used with Siberian languages, according to discussions at Unicode about encoding more of them by linguists who specialize in these languages. Several of these letters are used for Nivx, namely Қ/Ӄ Ң/Ӈ Ҳ/Ӽ. We should reflect the RS that these are allographs, note that the variants were invented by a specific influential textbook publishing company, and note that both variants are found in official documents. Both variants should be listed in the alphabet charts, though for conciseness we should choose one for the examples.

(There is also the letter Ӻ, which should be mentioned, but because Unicode has refused to encode a second variant of it, due to the argument that that is a mere allograph and not a distinct letter, it wouldn't appear directly in the alphabet charts unless we wanted to use SVG images.)

If I understand correctly, Modun claims that Қ/Ӄ Ң/Ӈ Ҳ/Ӽ are not allographs, but instead that there are two distinct Nivx alphabets in current use, with apparently identical orthographic rules. If true, the article would still need to reflect that. If Modun can find RS's for that claim, then we should list the two alphabets side by side. We would need to use SVG's for Ӻ, because there is no Unicode support for it in the second alphabet. Perhaps we could merge the cells of the alphabet table where the letters are identical, assuming the same sorting order. Since we would then have competing RS's about the nature of the distinction, we should note the disagreement. We should still choose one alphabet for the examples.

There is a second issue, that of replacing Nivx letters with punctuation marks. We should instead use proper letters, i.e. ⟨Кʼ Ӄʼ/Қʼ Пʼ Тʼ⟩ and dialectically ⟨Чʼ⟩. Here on WP-en, we use the appropriate Unicode characters for apostrophe-like letters. For example, we use the dedicated letter ⟨ʻ⟩ for the Hawaiian ʻokina, and not the single quotation mark. Similarly with other apostrophe-like letters, regardless of whether the script is Latin, Cyrillic or something else. In this case, the alphabetic letter is U+02BC modifier letter apostrophe. Currently the article uses U+2019 right single quotation mark. These characters look more-or-less the same but can behave quite differently. U+2019 is regularly replaced by the ASCII apostrophe per the no-curly-quotes rule of the MOS. — kwami (talk) 06:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Explanation: Cyrillic alphabets of many small (and not only) peoples of Russia (mainly in the North, Siberia and the Far East) have changed, revised and clarified many times. Accordingly, many different variations of orthography were formed, which cancelled the old variations. Often changing the alphabet itself. UNICODE has no competence to change or interpret either the composition of existing alphabets or the current orthographies. The UNICODE consortium is based on the existing orthographies of specific languages. Specific alphabets and orthographies of languages ​​in Russia are established and interpreted by the Russian government (or regional ones within their competence).

Law

The indicated letters Қ/Ӄ Ң/Ӈ Ҳ/Ӽ have a separate codification in Unicode, and were not originally "variations" of each other. It seems that no spelling reference book says that the letters in question can be variations of each other. This is an assumption that arose from who knows what. Perhaps this is the reason why the old version of the alphabet is used instead of the new one, because not all the letters of the alphabet were codified.

Some sources indicate that for the Nivkh language (Amur dialect) from 1953 to 1979 there was one version of the alphabet. 2, 3, 4, 5 At least, if we are to believe the Nivkh-Russian dictionary of 1970, authored by V.N. Savelyev and Ch.M. Taksami, it had the following form:

And after 1979, modern alphabets already looked like this: 1

Vladimir Sangi (one of the authors of the alphabet) mentions that the alphabets for both dialects were adopted by the Council of Ministers (government) of the RSFSR in 1979. Perhaps if we could find this document, we would clarify the situation in what form the modern alphabet was adopted.7, 8--Modun (talk) 03:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Nivkh)

Thank you for stating what the content issues are. On the one hand, the statements are not concise. I requested concise statements, but I recognize that that may be difficult. So I have a two-part follow-up request. First, please indicate the sections and paragraphs of the article that you want your changes made to. Second, please see whether you can make your statement of what you want to change more concise. If what you have provided is the most concise possible summary, because the issues are complicated, at least it will help to see what paragraphs are being discussed. A third question is whether either editor has questions about the reliability of a source. If so, we will ask the reliable source noticeboard for an opinion on the source.

Are there any other content questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:48, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

First statements by Kwami (Nivkh)

These are the edits I would like reversed.

Section: Cyrillic alphabet

• In the table, give both variants of the hooked letters, namely ticked Қ қ Қʼ қʼ Ң ң Ҳ ҳ and curved Ӄ ӄ Ӄʼ ӄʼ Ӈ ӈ Ӽ ӽ.
• In the table, change deprecated curly quotation marks to the proper apostrophe letter ⟨ʼ⟩.
• Below the table, change "Hooked variants of the letters" to "Rounded variants of the letters", since they're all arguably hooked.

Section: Alphabet Correspondence Table

• Give both letter variants as above. This only affects cells in the left column, though some of those cells span 2 columns.
• This time we're changing ASCII apostrophes to ⟨ʼ⟩. This should be done to all Cyrillic alphabets.
• For the Latin alphabet in the right column, the apostrophe should be the spiritus asper ⟨ʻ⟩. For example, the 'k' row should be: Кʼ кʼ | Къ къ | Kʻ kʻ.
• Provide a reference for "a 1970 dictionary".
• Change ⟨ɧ⟩ to "(approximately ɧ)" or similar, since ɧ is a Latin letter, not Cyrillic. The Cyrillic letter is not supported by Unicode, and so can only be approximated. It might instead be replaced by an SVG of both capital and lower case.
• Change Latin ⟨ⱨ⟩ back to Cyrillic ⟨Ԧ ԧ⟩.

— kwami (talk) 04:39, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

First statements by Modun (Nivkh)

Section: Cyrillic alphabet

• There's just one thing I want to change. Cancel the part that says that the letters Қ қ Қʼ қʼ Ң ң Ҳ ҳ and Ӄ ӄ Ӄʼ ӄʼ Ӈ ӈ Ӽ ӽ are interchangeable. Not a single textbook says that these letters are interchangeable. I believe that in this regard, we should separately examine why other letters are used in practice. And simply bring it into line with the source that has already been cited.
• Supplement with two variants of alphabets for different idioms/dialects (depending on the periods when they were adopted separately).

Otherwise, there are no global disagreements.--Modun (talk) 12:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Nivkh)

It appears that there is one main content issue. That is whether the letters Қ қ Қʼ қʼ Ң ң Ҳ ҳ and the letters Ӄ ӄ Ӄʼ ӄʼ Ӈ ӈ Ӽ ӽ are interchangeable (allographs) or are different letters. (By the way, do each of those lists of eight letters consist of four upper case letters and four lower case letters?) Is that the main issue? If so, what sources do you have to that effect about these groups of letters (that they are allographs, or that they are different)? Is the question about the reliability of sources, or interpretation of the sources, or are you using different sources? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by Kwami (Nivkh)

Yes, those are 4 letters, each in capital and lower case, and each in two allographic variants.

Yes, IMO too this is a matter of RSs. There are RSs to support my argument, and AFAIK there are no contrary RSs. At least, none have been presented so far. If Modun can produce RSs, then we would have a conflict of sources; so far AFAICT we do not.

First, there is a series of threads on the Unicode discussion board about these specific letters. Participants include linguists who specialize in the Siberian languages that use them. An example is here: L2/23-015 Comments on CYRILLIC CHE WITH HOOK’s use in Khanty and Tofa (Tofalar) (L2/22-280).

There are multiple experts in those discussions who say that these are allographs, the only dispute being whether they are completely interchangeable or whether one variant is to be preferred. It would be like people arguing over whether double-loop 'g' or script 'ɡ' is correct for English: double-loop 'g' is more common, but some publishers prefer script 'ɡ', and that's what's generally used for literacy material. Even if people strongly prefer one over the other, both are found.

We've had an argument that Unicode and the linguists participating in those discussions are irrelevant. The debate is relevant to Unicode because Unicode doesn't normally encode allographs. The consensus now is that it was a mistake to encode the rounded letters Ӄ ӄ Ӈ ӈ Ӽ ӽ. They should only have encoded Қ қ Ң ң Ҳ ҳ and left it to the font to handle the letter forms, just as publishers who prefer script 'ɡ' for English typeset it as the regular ASCII 'g' and choose a font that displays it the way they like. Unicode has decided therefore that they will not encode any more of these letters and make a bad situation worse. The situation is bad because words can now be encoded multiple different ways with no difference in meaning. A search engine therefore has to treat Ӄ Ӈ Ӽ as being the same 3 letters as Қ Ң Ҳ or people won't be able to reliably seach in texts or online. Search engines do not always accommodate the idiosyncrasies of small languages, so this can be a problem.

Modun objects that that Unicode source does not address Nivx specifically. However, these letters were created in the 1930s for all of the languages of Siberia, which until then had been written in Latin. Nivx was just one of many, and the same publisher's typefaces are used for all of them. If Nivx were different from the others in this regard, it could be used as an argument for encoding these letters. However, according to sources, none of the languages that use these letters make a distinction between their different forms.

The ref above describes how a single textbook publishing house, Prosveschenie ('Enlightenment' or 'Education'), created an in-house typeface that had rounded forms of these letters. There are no other differences -- that is, these aren't new alphabets. Prosveschenie was highly influential, and their textbooks are how many speakers of these languages learned to read. Therefore there is an idea among some speakers that the rounded Prosveschenie letters are the correct forms. However, Russian government ministries continue to use the original ticked forms. For example, here is the UN Declaration of Human Rights in Nivx and Russian. As you can see, they use the ticked allographs in the title of the doc and throughout the text. The fact that it's the modern alphabet is shown both by the date (2014) and by the fact that it uses all of the new letters that were introduced to the Nivx alphabet in 1979, namely Ғ Ӻ Р̌ Ӿ Ў (thanks to Modun for pointing out that orthographic revision). Again, these new letters appear in both the title and the text.

What we have therefore is a recent, official Nivx text (the official Nivx translation of the UNDHR) that uses the modern orthography with the ticked allographs of these letters, as well as statements by linguists working on the languages of Siberia that a single influential publishing house created the rounded forms, and that the difference is allographic.

— kwami (talk) 05:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I won't reply directly to Modun below, per instructions, but would like to point out one factual error. They say Sami 'distinguishes between the letters "Ӈ" and "Ң".' It does not: The Sami alphabet does not have both Ӈ and Ң in its alphabet. Agreed, the Ң form would be easily confused with another letter Sami does have, but Sami (not a Siberian language) does not use the set of letters that the Siberian orthographies are based on. — kwami (talk) 05:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by Modun (Nivkh)

The Declaration of Human Rights in the Nivkh language, to which my opponent refers, was translated and published not by the Russian government, but by some third-party private organizations. For example, the said declaration was published by a non-governmental printing house with the financial support of "Sakhalin Energy Investment Company LTD", the state did not invest a kopeyka in the publication of this translation of the document.

Secondly, there are also some questions about the quality of such translations. Here is an example of how such publishers released translations: altay, even, shor. Some were published with an unknown version of the alphabet in the corresponding languages, or with a broken encoding. (And this, by the way, is now attached to the UN website)

As for the "common alphabet projects" of the 1930s, in specific languages ​​they may differ from the common projects, since in specific languages ​​the projects are adjusted to the orthography of their language. For example, the alphabets of the languages ​​of the peoples of the Caucasus differ greatly from the "Yanalif" project (new script). In addition, they were published by the Ucpedgiz (Учпедгиз, Uchpedgiz) publishing house, which is the same Prosveshchenie (Просвещение) that my opponent criticizes for allegedly "imposing" its version of letters. But this company is a state publishing house.

Thirdly, there is no more evidence (at least for some reason it has not been additionally presented, which I asked for) that the indicated letters are "allographs". All modern educational materials on the Nivkh language consistently adhere to one version of the alphabet. Sociolinguists monitoring the state of this language also provide this version of the alphabet on their website. Unfortunately, due to inconsistent policy, we now have a situation where for some languages ​​the alphabetic base and composition of letters have changed quite often. For example, in Sámi, the alphabet has changed quite often over the past hundred years. And it also distinguishes between the letters "Ӈ" and "Ң", otherwise it would cause confusion because of the other letter "Ӊ".The source my opponent refers to is simply a working correspondence within UNICODE. It does not consider specific situations, "how acceptable is such a replacement?" (In my example with the Kildin Sámi language) Therefore, I believe that some additional sources are needed to confirm that such a replacement is specifically acceptable in the Nivkh language. Perhaps native speakers simply do not see the difference because they are not specialists in this field and simply proceed from the real situation of their language.--Modun (talk) 04:00, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

And the territorial feature has nothing to do with it, the spelling was not initially adopted based on the territorial feature. It was adopted for the so-called conditionally peoples of the North (Arctic) (Unified Northern Alphabet). So the criterion is not the peoples' residence in Siberia.

Secondly, you know very well that in the Kildin Sámi language letters "Ӈ" and "Ң" are not considered allographs. And if this is so, then where is the guarantee that it is not the same in other languages. That is why I ask you to provide an additional source that specifically in the Nivkh language these letters are supposedly considered allographs. But why do you have only one source available? Other sources point only to indirect signs

Thirdly, with your answer you have already deviated from the instructions. Modun (talk) 10:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Nivkh)

I stated what I thought was the issue, and it is:

It appears that there is one main content issue. That is whether the letters Қ қ Қʼ қʼ Ң ң Ҳ ҳ and the letters Ӄ ӄ Ӄʼ ӄʼ Ӈ ӈ Ӽ ӽ are interchangeable (allographs) or are different letters.

It appears that that is the issue. It further appears that one editor has a source, which is a translation from the Russian original, and the other editor questions the reliability of the translation. Is that a correct statement of the underlying issue? If so, I am asking each editor to identify any source that they are relying on, and for each editor to identify any source that they are challenging. I am asking for each editor to supply details of the sources, so that we can request the reliable source noticeboard to provide an opinion on source reliability. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:46, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by Kwamikagami (Nivkh)

There are multiple statements, by linguists who work on Siberian languages that use these letters, that the two sets are allographs. An example follows, with statements/quotations from two such linguists:

L2/23-015 Comments on CYRILLIC CHE WITH HOOK’s use in Khanty and Tofa (Tofalar) (L2/22-280).

I can dig up other threads that say basically the same thing.

There are also recent publications that use the 'ticked' forms of the letters for Nivx, such as mining concessions in Sakhalin. Here is the UNDHR from 2014, using the modern alphabet:

UN Declaration of Human Rights (bilingual in Nivx and Russian).

I don't know that Modun challenges the translation itself, just the use of these allographs for Nivx.

I don't think I have anything to challenge. Modun has presented several Nivx texts that use the rounded allographs. However, no-one disputes that those forms are very commonly used. The crux of the matter is that they're equivalent, even if some publishers prefer one over the other. — kwami (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by Nodun (Nivkh)

Desi

Closed as declined. The other editor has declined to participate in DRN at this time, and says that more discussion should be conducted at the article talk page. Participation in DRN is voluntary. Resume discussion at the article talk page, Talk:Desi. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Lydham Hall

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Lydham Hall (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Olga Sydney (talk · contribs)
• Mitch Ames (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Mitch AMES constantly makes changes and requires original sources to be used. 1. He wanted me to provide source for "the ONLY museum within the area." How would I do that. It is a common knowledge and no other museum is listed. 2. The original land grant was promised in 1822 and finalised only ten years later. He only names one of the Governors disregarding such an extensive time frame. 3. He in fact asked, whether it is another researcher apart from Sedneva! He simply did not like the surname? On what grounds he made such a request? It was never apologies. 4. It was a big deal on the donations for the local museum. The study I referred to explained it all as a public donation and a loan from National Trust Australia (NSW). He removed NSW! Why? There is National Trust division is in every state. Above all, yes I must refresh my referencing skills for Wiki but he goes too far. Absurd requests, unhappy with the main author's studies on the subject, unreasonable request for the original documents. I offered him to leave this article alone or read the studies in full. I may well be from non-native origins but I am not an idiot. I am tired of this editor making regular changes and unreasonable requests of 'original' sources.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Olga_Sydney

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please ask Mitch Ames to switch on common sense and be reasonable. I would prefer his access to Lydham Hall article to be restricted.

Summary of dispute by Mitch Ames

There has been an ongoing dispute about multiple, often unrelated, aspects of the article contents and references, and edits thereto, spread over my talk page (May-Jul 2024, since deleted but visible in this older revision), User talk:Olga Sydney (Jun-Sep 2024) and Talk:Lydham Hall (Sep 2024). It is not clear to me from the "Dispute overview" description which specific part(s) of the article's current content Olga Sydney is disputing here. I request that Olga Sydney be specific about what changes they would like to the article as it currently stands.

Lydham Hall discussion

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editor on their user talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Note - I have posted a notification on Mitch Ames' talk page. Adam Black 04:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - DRN is not used to request that an editor be restricted from certain pages. Since there does not appear to be a conduct dispute, there is no reason to make such a request. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Wudu

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Wudu (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nasserb786 (talk · contribs)
• Abo_Yemen (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

On June 25, 2024‎ Abo Yemen deleted content from article Wudu. The content has been there since before February 2, 2016. Since February 2, 2016 there have been approximately 500 edits from multiple users and the content has remained.

I have tried to add back this content and Abo Yemen keeps reverting. Note i have been thanked by user Phefeni for adding the old content back.

Abo Yemen view is as below these are references, not text that should be part of the main article. Plus most of them are redundant and really.. useless since there are other sources already. Ill try to include them if it's needed tho dont worry I dont see how including all the views of the 5 scholars is needed. Only one is enough adding useless info before 8 years doesn't make it credible. this article survived on wikipedia for 10 years but that doesn't make it real.

My view is as below The reason you we should include the 5 scholars is to show transparency and the reference to reliable publications support the content that Misplaced Pages contains so readers can verify the facts at source. The article needs to distinguish clearly between the translation of wiping and washing the feet which has been translated by famous scholars noted with links Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Rashad Khalifa, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Maulana Muhammad Ali. All these scholars have wiki pages associated to them.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Wudu#Restoration_of_an_old_version_of_the_article

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

the removed content too be added back and protect this part of the content from future attack's.

Summary of dispute by Abo_Yemen

Wudu discussion

this is the version that I want to keep and this is the version that Nasserb786 wants to restore Abo Yemen✉ 13:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

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