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  • Hava Mendelle (November 2, 2023). "Misplaced Pages at war". Spectator Australia. Retrieved November 2, 2023. Reading the initial two paragraphs would lead the reader to think that Israel occupies Gaza since 1967, that Hamas are not a terrorist organisation, and that Israel blocks Gazan land, sea, and air space for no reason at all.

Outdated count of UN member states that have recognized Palestine.

The current page says only 138 member states of the UN as well as the Holy See have recognized Palestine but as of June 12, 2024, that number is now 144 according to the Misplaced Pages article it links to. I cannot edit it myself so I'm making this post. Atemp624 (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

"Gaza death camp" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gaza death camp has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 15 § Gaza death camp until a consensus is reached. Anonymous 19:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Population size in infobox

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The current population size estimate doesn't make sense.
It says 2,375,259 for year 2022, and the reference is an Arabic article in a Chinese news site quoting Hamas.

There are a few more reliable sources, one of which should be used instead:

galenIgh 22:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Using cia source. GrayStorm 23:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. Nice touch on updating the density too.
By the way, that relates to another uncertain piece of data that might need updating: the area. But on a cursory search I don't see a conclusion.
The article currently says 365 km² but the two references don't support it:
  • Ref 1, the PDF article, doesn't seem to say it at all (searched, haven't read the whole thing).
  • Ref 2, cia.gov, actually contradicts it and says 360 km².
  • Britannica says 140 mile² / 363 km².
galenIgh 21:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

ICJ ruling

ICJ ruling has declared the Gaza Strip to be occupied regardless of the 2005 "disengagement", elaborating that occupation is not about the existence of military forces but the presence of an alternative authority in the territory in question. This should be reflected in this article. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Protests

In 2019, hundreds of Gazans took to the streets to demand a better life in what became known as the "we want to live" protests. Hamas security forces brutally suppressed the marches, beat the demonstrators and arrested over a thousand of them. . To disperse the crowds of demonstrators they opened fire at the crowd and beat them with clubs.

Protests against Hamas once again took to the streets of Gaza in the summer of 2023 demanding an improvement in the difficult living conditions under the same slogan, "We want to live". They were also brutally suppressed https://www.zman.co.il/508008/ 2.55.51.33 (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect Blockade Text

This text in the article is misleading to the point of being factually incorrect:

In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew its military forces from Gaza, dismantled its settlements, and implemented a temporary blockade of Gaza. The blockade became indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover.

At a minimum, the portion “and implemented a temporary blockade of Gaza” should be removed. The blockade in place today was implemented in June 2007 after the unilateral withdrawal of Israel from Gaza. While there was some minor restriction of movement 2005-07, blockade is probably not the correct term. The restrictions were more akin to border controls than a blockade and were nothing like the blockade that began in 2007, with extensive restrictions on the movement of good and people. Also the source cited is an opinion piece, not a legitimate source for historical information. Please consider these two sources to replace source 19, which contain only facts and all the information contained, so can strictly replace source 19:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza

https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitarian-impact-15-years-blockade-june-2022

Happy to provide more information as necessary to explain why this edit is necessary or answer any questions. AndyBrown1 (talk) 02:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I've changed the wording. Alaexis¿question? 09:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
this is factually false: "In 2006.... escalated its blockade, imposed the year before". Makeandtoss (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@Alexysun: When your insertions are reverted, you take it to the talk page to seek consensus, not by restoring without discusson. Does the Israel first lede paragraph mention that it is ruled by Likud and Kach's successor Otzma Yehudit? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:46, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Not really a valid comparison. Gaza Strip is not a country. It's part of Palestine. It's an important distinction to make that the two Palestinian territories are administrated by two different groups. Alexysun (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
The opening paragraph must be kept general and neutral per MOS:OPEN, and the point that Hamas rules the strip is already mentioned in the lede. I also happen to disagree with your edits here , as this is not an article about the Gaza blockade but about the strip as a whole and this does not deserve two more minor details in two sentences. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
Can you explain to me why it's not neutral? Also it's not clear in the lead that Hamas administers the strip. Secondly, the blockade is a major event in relation to the strip. Not sure why you think it's negligible.Alexysun (talk) 04:37, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I did not say it's not neutral; it is not general. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Hamas is already mentioned in the second paragraph, so no need to mention it in the first. I do feel the genocide should be mentioned in the lede.VR (Please ping on reply) 03:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
The blockade intensified in 2007 after the takeover by Hamas. In fact before 2007 some sources call it "movement restrictions" rather than a blockade . Therefore in the lede we should either mention just the start of the real "full" blockade or clarify that the previous blockade got much tighter. Alaexis¿question? 11:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Outdated Gaza death count

The article currently reads:


"As of 21 December 2023, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, at least 20,000 Palestinians, including over 8,000 children, have been killed. More than 85% of Palestinians in Gaza, or around 1.9 million people, were internally displaced."


These figures are significantly out of date. E.g., the first cited source currently reads:

"The latest death toll stands at 41,546 Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in Israel since October 7.

86.173.121.122 (talk) 07:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Israeli occupation section

@Reenem: regarding your last revert, I agree with half of your points. First, the highlighted sentence from the ICJ ruling defines what constitutes an occupied territory but does not mention Gaza. The rest of the quote clarifies that the ruling considers Gaza (as part of the Palestinian territories) to be illegally occupied. Leaving out this conclusion means omitting a crucial aspect of the court's findings, which ultimately regard the occupation not only as existing but also as unlawful. By excluding these details, the previous explanation risks presenting an incomplete narrative that fails to fully capture the court's stance on the legality of Israel's presence in the region. This interpretation is supported by the dozen reliable sources I added. The last line regarding reparations is expanding on that conclusion, but I agree that it could be removed.

Regarding the judges opinions, they are relevant. But in my opinion, that content should go into its own paragraph and it should also be rewritten; it is honestly very hard to follow. You're also mentioning three people at the beginning with no in-line qualifications (only one has a link and seems like a university professor?) so it would be better to fix that. Are they experts on the field? The opinion from Judge Cleveland seems to also include an excerpt from the ruling mixed with her own opinion; but the text is confusing, since it's one giant quote. So this is my attempt to fix that:

Judge Yuji Iwasawa pointed out that while the court stated Israel is bound by some obligations related to occupation law, it didn't determine whether Gaza remained "occupied" within the meaning of the law of occupation after 2005. Judge Sarah Cleveland noted that the Court observed that after Israel's withdrawal in 2005, it continued to exercise key elements of authority over the Gaza Strip. This included "control of the land, sea and air borders, restrictions on movement of people and goods, collection of import and export taxes, and military control over the buffer zone." As a result, the Court concluded that certain aspects of the law of occupation still applied to Gaza, based on Israel's level of effective control. However, it did not specify which obligations still bound Israel after 2005, nor did it find any violations of those obligations.

How does that sound? - Ïvana (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes that seems fine. Basically just emphasize that the ICJ noted that Israel has some remaining obligations under the law of occupation but declined to determine whether it counts as occupied under international law. By the way, I noticed you removed several legal opinions that contest that Gaza is occupied. This in my opinion was inappropriate, as it should be emphasized that while there does seem to be a large consensus agreeing that Gaza is occupied, it is not universal, and includes some scholars of note such as Yuval Shany as well as a current Israeli Supreme Court judge. I think it would be appropriate to restore that.--RM (Be my friend) 15:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
You restored a big chunk that has nothing to do with Gaza. Israel's claim that the exercise of effective control or authority determines occupation in international law is based on previous court rulings. Who said that? There's no source. So that means the assertion comes from us. That is clearly WP:OR. If you want to reference the Nuremberg trials, the Hague, or the European Court of Human Rights, please ensure you cite a secondary source that supports those comparisons.
I still don't know anything about the people you're mentioning. They have no in-line qualifications, some don't even have articles. And the weight given to some of these opinions is undue. You have for example multiple human rights organizations, government entities and legal commentators limited to one line, and Hanne Cuyckens (whoever that is) has more than half of a paragraph. That is disproportionate. Again, who are these people? Are their opinions relevant? We need to mention their credentials. - Ïvana (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Yuval Shany, Alex Stein, and Avi Bell all have articles. This seems to be the Hanne Cuyckens mentioned. We can cut down the amount given to them but some mention should be made. RM (Be my friend) 17:59, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes, this is why I said "some". I don't have a problem with keeping the wikilinked ones. But their credentials should be mentioned. - Ïvana (talk) 18:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
I noticed some commentators cited in that section in saying Gaza was occupied aren't wikilinked: Claude Bruderlein, Sari Bashi, Kenneth Mann, Shane Darcy, John Reynolds. I assume this is the Kenneth Mann the editor meant but there only Misplaced Pages article available is in Hebrew. I assume it would be acceptable in the case of legal scholars arguing Gaza isn't occupied as well. We should decide what's best in both cases. In any event I've modified it to make it as acceptable as possible, I might come back to it later. Let me know what you think. RM (Be my friend) 19:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
I tweaked the section to avoid the over reliance on direct quotes and some redundancy. Content is still the same.
There are two points you haven't addressed: the WP:OR paragraph and the removal of content related to the conclusion of the ruling, which is clearly relevant. You're including the opinion of judges related to the occupation status but not the conclusion itself which designates Israel as an occupying power. I don't see the logic in that. - Ïvana (talk) 20:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
If you mean the paragraph that references the Nuremberg trials and ECHR, I think it is informative but I can see how it would count as OR. Regarding the opinions of the judges, the whole point was that the ICJ did not seem to outright designate Israel as the occupying power of Gaza, at least in the same way that they did regarding the WB. It's important to note they seemed to draw some sort of distinction and hinted that perhaps the law of occupation did not apply in its entirety. If there's a section you'd like to add then fine, but I don't think any info in that paragraph should be deleted. If necessary we can condense the paragraph to include as much info as possible within a reasonable size. RM (Be my friend) 21:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't have any problem about keeping the opinion of the judges, I agree they are important. My point is that this section should be restored: and concluded that "The sustained abuse by Israel of its position as an occupying Power, through annexation and an assertion of permanent control over the Occupied Palestinian Territory and continued frustration of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, violates fundamental principles of international law and renders Israel's presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory unlawful". We are including opinions arguing how the territory is not occupied but are excluding the part of the ruling that specifically designates it as such. There's no balance there. We should include both that part of the ruling (currently missing) and the experts opinion arguing the contrary (already covered). - Ïvana (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
That section doesn't mention Gaza at all. At most you can say it applies to Gaza in the sense that the OPT are seen as a single territorial unit but the court seemed to focus little on Gaza and from what it did say it seems it was hesitant to label Gaza as fully occupied. RM (Be my friend) 09:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
What's "fully occupied"? Before the idea of functional occupation was developed (even if not called that), occupation tended to be a yes/no thing. However, even before the ICJ ruling, there was already a consensus that Gaza is occupied, even if only "functionallY", and the ICJ has affirmed that position, see the ref 12 I added to the lead to see what the court said in paras 91 to 4.
Apart from that, the court also decided that an occupation may not continue indefinitely and declared the occupation illegal for the entire OPT, including Gaza. Selfstudier (talk) 10:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Like I said, we can include more on the court's decision, but it is still noteworthy that the court does seem to draw a distinction between Gaza and the West Bank and decline to fully determine whether or not Gaza is occupied. However, said sentence suggested doesn't mention Gaza at all, maybe we should also find something it said regarding Gaza? RM (Be my friend) 12:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
The OPT includes Gaza? And its occupation (on any basis) is illegal. This is not difficult. Selfstudier (talk) 13:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
The section we're talking about is primarily concerned whether or not Gaza is occupied under international law. RM (Be my friend) 13:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
And the section I want to restore specifically refers to the Court determining that Gaza (as part of the OPT) is occupied, and that the occupation is illegal. That is clearly related to the subject of whether or not Gaza is occupied under international law. - Ïvana (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Agree, even if some judges disagreed with some parts, the AO considered the legal consequences as applying for the OPT, including Gaza.
The two refs I mentioned above deal with both aspects, the fact of the occupation (even if functional, it is still an occupation) and secondly that said occupation is illegal across the OPT. There is no separation of the West Bank and Gaza in the latter sense, only in the sense of the occupation being of a distinct form in Gaza. If the source says OPT (defined as including Gaza), then it does not need to mention Gaza separately as well. Selfstudier (talk) 14:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
I guess it could fit, although I still think the legality of the occupation is of less relevance in that particular section. RM (Be my friend) 14:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Israeli occupation of Gaza

@Reenem: Your changes to the lede does not reflect the sources. The ICJ has explicitly ruled that the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip constitute one single political unit that had been collectively under occupation since 1967 despite the 2005 disengagement from Gaza:

“ The Court notes that, for the purpose of determining whether a territory remains occupied under international law, the decisive criterion is not whether the occupying Power retains its physical military presence in the territory at all times but rather whether its authority has been established and can be exercised.

Based on the information before it, the Court considers that Israel remained capable of exercising, and continued to exercise, certain key elements of authority over the Gaza Strip, including control of the land, sea and air borders, restrictions on movement of people and goods, collection of import and export taxes, and military control over the buffer zone, despite the withdrawal of its military presence in 2005. This is even more so since 7 October 2023.

”

This is also supported by secondary sources: "He said Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005 did not bring Israel's occupation of that area to an end because it still exercises effective control over it."

One or two dissenting opinions from judges does not change the fact that the court as a whole has found that Israel remained to be an occupying power. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think they were dissenting opinions, they were describing the court's reasoning. The court determined that the law of occupation applied at least in part but seemed hesitant to determine whether it applied in full. They seemed to be in an awkward bind because they viewed the OPT as one political unit but clearly the conditions in Gaza were different. In any case, even dissenting opinions should be published. The whole point of that section is to show the opinions of different experts on the status of the Gaza Strip. RM (Be my friend) 11:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Secondary opinions from judges do not serve as footnotes for the court's ruling, they are simply their personal views. They obviously have enough weight to be included here but the court's position remains the same, in this case that the OPT as a whole, including Gaza, is still occupied. - Ïvana (talk) 00:49, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
@Reenem: I am talking about changes that were made to the lede, not to the body or section. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate. As I said it seems to me that they weren't dissenting opinions but rather explaining the court's reasoning. The court seemed to rule that certain aspects of the law of occupation applied but did not outright state that it was fully occupied. In any case the previous wording said "still considered to be occupied under international law", and I think saying that it's considered to be occupied by "numerous legal experts, governments, and international organizations" is a better choice of wording, because while a lot of legal authorities do treat it as occupied, it is not an absolute consensus. It is not a total consensus, so I think that even if we do link to the court's ruling, we should not state unambiguously in Misplaced Pages's voice that it's considered as such. RM (Be my friend) 09:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
As I said it seems to me that they weren't dissenting opinions but rather explaining the court's reasoning OR, judges separate opinions are just that, their opinions. If what they said was what the court intended, then the court would have said that in its findings.
but did not outright state that it was fully occupied is just unsourced OR. What is "fully occupied" supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that Gaza is only partially occupied? Says who?
The lead currently says "The territory has been under Israeli occupation since 1967." and the source explains that, it does not say it is fully occupied and does not need to, it is the consensus position. Selfstudier (talk) 10:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
They were describing the court's reasoning. One of the judges outright stated that the court didn't decide whether Gaza was fully occupied or not. It wasn't an opinion, it was an assertion of fact. I also have issues with the lead, given that while there seems to be a consensus, it is not a universal one and there are notable legal experts who disagree. I actually think that the lead should be taken down, and Aeyal Gross's article should go in the status section. It includes analysis there on a functional approach to occupation that could be included (which is what the court seems to have leaned towards). This source is in fact talking about a more nuanced position, whereas to label it as "occupied" using this source without explaining it further would be misleading, as most people still tend to think of occupation in a very specific way. RM (Be my friend) 10:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
The source I added to the lead says:
"Based on the information before it, the Court considers that Israel remained capable of exercising, and continued to exercise, certain key elements of authority over the Gaza Strip, including control of the land, sea and air borders, restrictions on movement of people and goods, collection of import and export taxes, and military control over the buffer zone, despite the withdrawal of its military presence in 2005" (para. 93).
That is exactly the position that was held before the courts findings, the court has endorsed the previous consensus. What has changed is that the court has effectively overruled arguments to the contrary.
Having said that, I do agree that there is too much about "occupation" in the lead, we should reduce the whole thing to a single sentence.
Suggest one. Selfstudier (talk) 11:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
I think two sentences are fine. This - "Despite the Israeli disengagement, Gaza is still considered to be occupied by Israel by numerous legal experts, governments, and international organizations. However, Israel contends that it has not occupied the Gaza Strip since 2005, and some legal experts support the Israeli position" - seems sufficient. Maybe it can be distilled into a single sentence. Something like "despite the disengagement, numerous legal experts, governments, and international organizations consider the Gaza Strip to still be occupied by Israel, although the Israeli government contends it does not occupy the territory and some legal experts support the Israeli position." Basically just something noting the widespread consensus that Gaza is considered occupied and also noting that some experts object to that definition. But we should not state authoritatively in Misplaced Pages's voice that the territory is occupied, so we should move the Gross article down to the status section and give a brief overview, mentioning the concept of the "functional approach" to occupation. RM (Be my friend) 14:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. Gross, Aeyal (12 October 2024). "The Functional Approach as Lex Lata". Verfassungsblog. doi:10.59704/133f2ff82e19d7f9 – via verfassungsblog.de.
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