Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory

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To view an explanation of the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Frequently asked questions about Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory Q1: Why is this topic called a "conspiracy theory" in the title? A1: Because that's what the reliable sources call it, and Misplaced Pages follows what reliable, independent, secondary sources say. See the sources listed in the footnotes in the lead of the article, for example. Q2: Why is it labeled "far-right" and "antisemitic" in the first sentence? Doesn't that show a biased, leftist point of view? A2: See answer #1; because that's what the reliable sources call it; see the citations for the first sentence. Q3: Dworkin (1997) has the term in the title of his book, so the field clearly must exist. A3: Not if he's the first one to talk about it. Dworkin said (on page 3) that "My account is the first intellectual history to study British cultural Marxism conceived as a coherent intellectual discipline". If he's the first, then either it's not a preexisting field, or no one has discovered or named it before him. Either way, that would be a different topic; this article is about the conspiracy theory dating to the 1990s. Q4: I came here to read (or edit) about scholars who apply Marxist theory to the study of culture. A4: Much of this is covered at a different article, Marxist cultural analysis. Q5: Why is this labeled "antisemitic"? Plenty of people involved with the Frankfurt school were Jewish! A5: This article is about the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory dating to the 1990s, and the reliable sources consistently identify it as antisemitic. The Frankfurt school is a different topic, and dates back to Germany in the 1920s.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

David Auerbach (2014-12-11). "Encyclopedia Frown". Slate. Recently, an adequate and fairly neutral page on 'Cultural Marxism,' which traced the history of Marxist critical theory from Lukács to Adorno to Jameson, simply disappeared thanks to the efforts of a single editor.
Russell Blackford (2015-07-27). "Cultural Marxism and our current culture wars: Part 1". The Conversation.
Russell Blackford (2015-08-02). "Cultural Marxism and our current culture wars: Part 2". The Conversation.
McKinney, Kara (2021-11-29). "Tipping Point". One America News Network.
Alexander Riley (2022-05-12). "On Cultural Marxism, the Antisemitic Conspiracy Theory? Woke Deception at Misplaced Pages". Minding the Campus.
Shuichi Tezuka (2023-12-11). "Introducing Justapedia". Quillette.

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the relevant Misplaced Pages policy on recruitment of editors, as well as the neutral point of view policy. Disputes on Misplaced Pages are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

A warning about certain sources: There are two sources on the subject of "Cultural Marxism" that represent a citogenesis or circular reporting risk to Misplaced Pages as they plagiarize verbatim directly from an outdated draft that came from Misplaced Pages, which can be found here (2006 revision here). The sources are N.D. Arora's Political Science for Civil Services Main Examination (2013) and A.S. Kharbe's English Language And Literary Criticism (2009); both are from publishers located in New Delhi and should be avoided to prevent a citogenesis incident.

are the sources correct

I don't quite understand. There is information that claims that 87% of the Frankfurt members are Jews. They are probably false, it's just hard for me to believe that people really think that philosophical teachings can consist entirely of any ethnic group. 178.187.59.202 (talk) 19:02, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

When people talk about "The Frankfurt School" they're generally referring to the first generation of The Frankfurt School (arguably, each generation has been less impactful). Of them, Jürgen Habermas was the only non-Jewish member - and he's often more considered the start of the Second Generation.

However, I don't believe many/any of The Frankfurt School were practicing Jews, but it was their ethnic background all the same (as Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religious practice).

We don't actually cite a percentage number in the article, and that would probably not be Misplaced Pages's approach. 117.102.138.0 (talk) 02:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Separate article for cultural Marxism

As the FAQ notes, this article only covers the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory dating to the 1990s:

Q3: Dworkin (1997) has the term in the title of his book, so the field clearly must exist.

A3: Not if he's the first one to talk about it. Dworkin said (on page 3) that "My account is the first intellectual history to study British cultural Marxism conceived as a coherent intellectual discipline". If he's the first, then either it's not a preexisting field, or no one has discovered or named it before him. Either way, that would be a different topic; this article is about the conspiracy theory dating to the 1990s.

My question is, does the more general concept of cultural Marxism meet the requirements of WP:NOTABILITY to have its own article? It would appear so, as there are quite a few reliable sources that discuss the general concept (without the conspiracy theories):

Dworkin's Cultural Marxism in Postwar Britain
Cultural Marxism and Political Sociology by Richard Weiner
Trent Schroyer's use of the term in his The Critique of Domination
Davies, I. "British cultural Marxism". Int J Polit Cult Soc (1991)
Oittinen's discussion of the term in The Encyclopedia of Political Thought (2014)
Jamin, J. "Cultural Marxism: A survey". Religion Compass (2018)

This article in Tablet magazine also speaks directly to the fact that cultural Marxism is a notable concept beyond just the conspiracy theory.

I understand that there used to be a standalone article for cultural Marxism that was deleted at some point, but I'm not sure why. Was it due to a perceived lack of notability, or some other reason? Does someone have the link to that discussion? Stonkaments (talk) 00:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I think there are only two topics and hence no need for a third article. Marxist cultural analysis covers all the real Marxist stuff and this article covers all the conspiracy stuff. I don't think there is anything else. I'll wager that everything on that list refers to one or the other.

The conspiracy theory use of the term may date to the 1990s but it is not limited to that time period. In fact it only exploded in popularity well afterwards and continues to this day. --DanielRigal (talk) 01:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cultural_Marxism_(2nd_nomination)

Google books says this of Richard Weiner's Cultural Marxism and Political Sociology (as per its blurb):

A thorough examination and analysis of the tensions between political sociology and the culturally oriented Marxism that emerged in the 60s and 70s is presented in this volume. In order to create a strikingly original synthesis, Weiner considers the work of theorists as diverse as Jurgen Habermas, Claus Offe, Alain Touraine, Anthony Giddens and Alvin Gouldner, many of whom fall ideologically outside the cultural Marxism movement.

Due to that it can't be considered a rigorous source, it seems to be discussing a "culturally oriented Marxism" (as a general concept) rather than a solid definition of a unified group/movement going under the name "Cultural Marxism" (note the capitalization, indicating a proper noun).

Trent Schroyer uses lower case "cultural Marxism" also indicating he's talking about a more general concept, and not a set or well defined idea... this seems to be the case for Davies, and Oittinen too.

The Jamin source (perhaps because it's the most recent, and so more familiar with the conspiracy theory usage) actually makes Misplaced Pages's position a bit clearer, the term is used for both a Conspiracy Theory, as well as a type of analysis associated with a specific set of thinkers (The Frankfurt School, The Birmingham School aka British Cultural Marxism, and E.P Thompson). This page is for the conspiracy theory. For other usages, you should check out Marxist cultural analysis (as the other responder suggests).

As a final point, Tablet Magazine wouldn't be a suitable source for this topic, as it's a conservative magazine. It's also been suggested that they're fairly friendly to the Alt-right who are affiliated with the conspiracy theory, search the talk page archives for the authors surname "Zubatov" for further details. 117.102.135.76 (talk) 02:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

All those sources, except Jamin's 2018 article, were mentioned in a Misplaced Pages editor's 2015 article defending the existence of cultural Marxism as a topic.

None of the original sources define the term and there is no evidence they mean the same thing. Only three of them are writing about the topic in general, rather than cultural Marxism in the UK. They also seem to be using the term interchangeably with cultural analysis.

Notice also that the first use of the term was in 1973, long after the school's heyday. None of the main characters, or their critics, used the term or were even aware of it.

In order to write an article, you would have to begin by saying what the topic was. But there are not sources for this. TFD (talk) 10:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

There is also David Auerbach's 2014 Slate article found in the Press section of this talk page that illuminates the issue. link 87.116.178.252 (talk) 21:04, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

It only uses the term in passing, without enough context to determine whether the author is bemoaning the loss of a page on the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory (but believes some aspects of the theory have merit to it and therefore shouldn't be described as one), bemoaning the loss of what is now our page on Marxist cultural analysis, bemoaning the fact that we now have only one page on Critical theory, or bemoaning the loss of a page on some third thing. Realistically everything of value on that page was distributed over those three. --Aquillion (talk) 21:17, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

To quote from the Slate article:

Recently, an adequate and fairly neutral page on “Cultural Marxism,” which traced the history of Marxist critical theory from Lukács to Adorno to Jameson, simply disappeared thanks to the efforts of a single editor. Rather than folding it into the narrower but deeper “Critical theory” page, the editor replaced the page with one on the “Frankfurt school conspiracy theory,” which obsessively and somewhat offensively dwells on the Jewish presence in these schools of thought and the right-wing and borderline anti-Semitic conspiracy theories around them. (The reason the editor dwelled on these irrelevant conspiracy theories instead of the thinkers themselves is unknown, but the changes are certainly troubling.) After bewildered complaints, Wales restored the original page and asked for an extra week’s debate on the sudden and drastic shift, sparking outrage from a cabal of editors who favored the change. Whether the change will win out will be determined less by truth and more by the stubbornness and comparative popularity of the editors and the administrators backing them.

87.116.178.252 (talk) 21:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't help but note that not only does that quote contradict what happened (there were extended discussions on the initial deletion; no single editor could do such a thing), it also contradicts itself. In that paragraph alone, they state that the page simply disappeared thanks to the efforts of a single editor, yet a few sentences later Wales' decision to unilaterally restore it sparked outrage from a cabal of editors who favored the change - so apparently even the author realized it wasn't just one editor? In any case, it reads to me like an opinion piece; and given that it's by a non-expert it's not useful for much. My advice is to read better sources. --Aquillion (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Something deeply ironic about David Auerbach suggesting there's a conspiracy theory to take over Misplaced Pages headed by a lone editor backed by administrators. That's just more conspiracy mongering. In actual fact you can find the talk page of the deletion discussion quite easily - and you can review the accounts of the administrators who closed the discussion - and check whether they were impartial as per WP:UNINVOLVED and WP:COI. Misplaced Pages has these policies to ensure there's not collusion or a conspiracy. Misplaced Pages also operates on facts, and requires people to do proper research - it doesn't operate on opinions, hearsay, and conspiracy theories. David Auerbach should put some research in if he wants to prove there's a conspiracy going on here. 117.102.157.210 (talk) 02:23, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Auerbach has a BA in computer science and is not an expert. The problem remains that the few sources that the conspiracy theorists were able to find are insufficient to establish it is a notable topic. TFD (talk) 21:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Slate is generally regarded as RS, but setting that aside, I hope you’re not implying that anyone supporting the CM disambiguation is a conspiracy theorist. 87.116.178.252 (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Slate might be generally regarded as RS, but Auerbach has a personal involvement with Misplaced Pages (stemming from his involvement in GamerGate) and ought not to be used as a source on anything Misplaced Pages-related. MrOllie (talk) 11:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Sort of? The 2014 dispute you're talking about (when an article that functionally endorsed the conspiracy theory was deleted and eventually replaced with this one) was related to Gamergate (harassment campaign); modern sources are extremely clear that the use of "cultural marxism" in that context was part of the conspiracy theory described on this page - see the relevant section here and its sources. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who got caught up in some part of that campaign saw the whole thing, or endorsed the entire conspiracy theory with all of its twists and turns, or were even fully aware that they were being fed a conspiracy theory; but the sources in the article are clear that the term, as it was used in the context of that campaign, was used to invoke the conspiracy theory in order to try and recruit people deeper into the radical movements that believe in it. So if your position is "hey I heard a bunch of stuff about Cultural Marxism in 2014, why isn't there an article about that, why is there this article about a conspiracy theory instead?", the answer is that this article is the article about what people were telling you back then. --Aquillion (talk) 20:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Please provide a source that Slate is generally reliable. It isn't listed in Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Similar publications listed are reliable "for news."

Please see WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. The nature of the publication determines whether it is reliable for specific claims.

Imagine you were writing a chapter about a philosophical school for an encyclopedia. Are you going to consult books and articles written by experts with PhDs and university professorships and published by academic publishers, or are you going to base it on a computer scientist writing in a magazine?

Similarly, would you base an article about nuclear physics on something written by someone with a BA in hotel management? Or would you decide on what medical treatment you needed based on an article by someone with a BA in architecture? TFD (talk) 03:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

In 2014, the AfD deleted the page "Cultural Marxism" and redirected it to...? The article "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" was created in 2017, while this Talk page was created in 2020. Could someone clarify the gaps between these events? This talk page is generating significant engagement, and I’m sure there’s a reasonable explanation for both gaps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.178.252 (talk) 15:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Hey, I suspect you're new to Misplaced Pages, so: Welcome to Misplaced Pages! I believe this is what you're looking for: - you can click the history button and see the history of the page (eg. where it's been redirected to) since the closing admin of the AfD wiped it. Looks like the first place it redirected to was Frankfurt School#conspiracy theory

If I recall correctly, it was eventually decided that the conspiracy theory section of that page, didn't really relate to what The Frankfurt School actually said, or did, or was about in any way (it was also getting too expansive). The conspiracy theory proposes that they took over the media, culture and society, to control it as political propaganda... but in actual fact they were vehemently against propaganda, and believed that cultures should be localized, and have lots of different humanistic voices, perspectives, debates, poetry, and art (even Avant-garde art that's clearly not going to be popular with everyone, which was a theme of Adorno's music - his point was that it didn't have to be commercially viable to be valuable or meaningful to the artist/human experience).

Likewise, Marcuse's theory of the One Dimensional Man is that making culture into a profit driven, or political apparatus, inevitably led to a mechanical system of Capitalist hegemony that was impossible to escape - because all attempts at escaping would be folded back in if/when they become popular enough (this is perhaps evidence in the fact that all Youtube videos ultimately contribute to Google's profits, same for other social media cites, we can't help but feed them in click/view profits so the mechanical reproduction of culture on an industrial level serves the Capitalist system in total). So there was really not much of a path for value systems to escape that.

Perhaps tangentially, the conspiracy theory doesn't just get those facts/viewpoints wrong, but it also doesn't mention other schools of Marxist cultural analysis that have been discussed as "cultural" forms of Marxism - such as those of The Birmingham School, or Labor theorist E.P. Thompson. For instance, where the conspiracy theory claims The Frankfurt School totally dominates society, The Birmingham School theorists had a much more hopeful idea that modern viewers (circa, 1973) could encode and decode the meanings within mass media, to produce new versions and understandings of the messages within it. They could modify, subvert, make fun of, respond to it (again, you probably recognize this on Youtube).

Finally there's E.P. Thompson, and his work in Labor history and books like The Making of the English Working Class where his practice of a Marxist approach to culture is involved with tracking down historical records of a hidden history, a hidden social consciousness that is outside of popular culture and exists in a more traditional mode, discussions in pubs, in union meetings, in human interactions, in certain families, in cultures which aren't commercial - but still worth documenting.

All of which stems from Gramsci - who is complicated and expansive, but was vitally saying; we need a working class hegemony, a place to preserve and hold our human values in the face of a culture which is manufactured and pushed and propagandized. In his era, this was a reference to Fascist propaganda (keep in mind, he was writing from prison, put there by Italian fascists). Lots of these authors are responding to fascism... where as the conspiracy theory selects out just The Frankfurt School, and claims they were the fascists, and that they're the ones trying to construct an authoritarian mono-culture. To anyone whose actually familiar with what The Frankfurt School actually wrote, said, did, this makes absolutely no sense - and is in many ways the opposite of them. They were trying to preserve and provide their ideas on a more humanist and varied type of culture, where a hegemony (and its causes) could be pointed out, and voices of criticism could be heard. This is why they were against fascism, because it silences people. So the one voice they thought should be stopped, was the fascist voice - this is because they'd experienced fascism first hand in Germany and Italy.

Anyways, hopefully that redirect link will help you investigate whatever it is you're trying to find out further. 117.102.157.210 (talk) 06:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
The AfD references two previous RfCs, but I can't find them since "Talk:Cultural Marxism" prior to 2014 is inaccessible. To make matters worse, the Internet Archive is also down today. Perhaps history doesn't matter after all.😒 87.116.178.252 (talk) 22:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
An RfC is just a "Request for Comment" and is usually just one editor asking the opinions of other editors to get a consensus on a change to be made to an article. That's not likely to be a deletion discussion, just a change someone is uncertain about. There is apparently 2 AfDs (article for deletion discussions) for this page - but the first one was a clerical error. An editor accidentally nominated the talk page to be deleted, rather than the actual article. That discussion (which is very short as it was a misfiling) can be reviewed here: . 101.115.139.171 (talk) 08:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find these references in the AfD. In any case, it has little relevance to re-creating an article about cultural Marxism. You need to show that sufficient sources exist.

Also, how is cutural Marxism different from Marxist cultural analysis? TFD (talk) 08:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There was originally a ‘Cultural Marxism’ page with a section for the ‘CM conspiracy theory.’ Due to disagreements, this page was formed, and I guess at some point the cultural marxism page itself was moved/deleted. 2601:547:B00:483D:9463:B657:DCFC:9665 (talk) 12:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it would be a good idea to have a separate article for cultural Marxism Steven1991 (talk) 05:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

You're looking for Marxist cultural analysis, there's a hatnote about it atbthe top of the article. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Rather than a separate article, should we make a disambiguation page for cultural Marxism? Both pages have significant usage and long-term significance, so I don't think there is a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for cultural Marxism, and therefore it seems the base page should be the disambiguation page. Stonkaments (talk) 19:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

The pageview stats are clear, this is the primary topic. - MrOllie (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the primary topic because there is no disambiguation and because the original cultural marxism page has since been deleted. Suggestions for a disambiguation page date back at least to November 2023.

There should be a disambiguation page now if the academy is increasingly using the term Western Marxism in the way Dworkin was using the term Cultural Marxism. I am a Leaf (talk) 14:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

"There should be a disambiguation page now if the academy is increasingly using the term Western Marxism in the way Dworkin was using the term Cultural Marxism." - it's not and never was. Western Marxism is a broader term including a myriad of Marxists that fall out of the common or most prevalent usage of cultural Marxism, its self a niche term in Academia (which refers to The Frankfurt School, Birmingham School, and occasionally E.P. Thompson). Western Marxism covers a lot more that's out side of that.

Also, I don't know why you'd choose one source as the be all and end all for defining the term - especially seeing as your chosen sources is focusing on BRITISH cultural Marxism alone. So that's a sub category of a sub category (and is already covered on the Marxist cultural analysis page, as both The Birmingham School and E.P. Thompson were British, and that's the reason they're repeatedly referenced in Dworkin). So if you're going to claim things like that all Western Marxism is now Cultural Marxism - you really need more than one niche book... and that book its self states that it's the first attempt at manufacturing an intellectual history of British cultural Marxism anyways (see the FAQ at the top of the talk page). 101.115.143.188 (talk) 04:16, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Given that there's only two pages to disambig, and that they're related in an abstract sense - the current hatnote on the article is probably enough. It directs users to Marxist cultural analysis if that's what people were looking for, and likewise that page has a section on the conspiracy theory, if that should be their interest. Misplaced Pages is doing a good job of respecting both viewpoints, and keeping them separate due to their opposing content. Obviously (and as mentioned in my longer comment above) these two pages are saying opposite things, with only one being rational, and as a consequence, truer to what the Marxist cultural theorists accused of being part of the "Cultural Marxism" conspiracy were actually on about (again this is further discussed in my long comment above this one). 101.115.139.171 (talk) 06:54, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the primary topic, and it includes a hatnote to Marxist cultural analysis if that is what readers are looking for. It's just unfortunate that most readers will have heard of the term in relation to the conspiracy theory rather than the fairly boring real nature of cultural analysis. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

History of "Cultural Marxism" Article/Redirect/DAB

Since this topic emerged in our previous discussion, and given that some relevant pages on Misplaced Pages have been purged, I consulted the Internet Archive to recover missing information. Here are my findings, which may be pertinent to current and future discussions:-

Cultural Marxism was originally a Misplaced Pages article, with the earliest snapshot available from 2006.

From September to December 2014, the article underwent rapid changes, shifting its focus. Notable snapshots include August 2014 and December 2014.

On 29 October 2014, there was a brief discussion about whether to delete or merge the article with the "Frankfurt School conspiracy theory" article. No conclusion was reached.

Between 5-22 December 2014, an extensive debate regarding merging the article with "Frankfurt School Conspiracy Theory" took place, with Jimbo Wales actively participating. Ultimately, two uninvolved administrators determined there was no consensus to merge.

From 22-29 December 2014, after a contested AfD, three uninvolved administrators sided with the delete-and-redirect proponents, concluding that "Frankfurt School" or "Frankfurt School conspiracy theory" would be the most suitable targets for redirection.

Shortly thereafter, a redirect was established from Cultural Marxism to Frankfurt School#Conspiracy theory. Both the old article and its talk page were purged (essentially, both pages were deleted and recreated, which accounts for the lack of complete history for these pages).

From 7 May to 17 August 2019, a Request for Comment (RfC) regarding the splitting of the content from "Frankfurt School#Conspiracy theory" section resulted in no consensus. View discussion.

Between 12 August and 11 September 2020, a similar RfC proposal was debated and deemed to have a clear consensus by the closing admin, the same one who closed the AfD in 2014. View discussion.

On 11 September 2020, the conspiracy theory content was moved from "Frankfurt School" to a new article titled "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory." The redirect from "Cultural Marxism" was updated to point to this new article, where it remains today.

On 28 September 2020, the article "Marxist cultural analysis" was created.

Regarding the creation of a "Cultural Marxism" disambiguation page, my search did not uncover any RfCs, though I did find two unclosed discussions from 2021 and 2022.

Is this historical information useful? Should any of it be added to the FAQ? 87.116.182.140 (talk) 19:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

"... given that some relevant pages on Misplaced Pages have been purged, I consulted the Internet Archive to recover missing information." If you didn't know that all these discussions are archived on Misplaced Pages and are easily navigatable with the links at the top of this page, then there's nothing more for anyone to say other than good effort and I'm sorry you wasted your time? Archiving old and closed discussions is routine on most talk pages when the total amount of text on a talk page gets too big. Do you really think there's some nefarious "purging" going on or are you playing innocent with the old "I'm just asking questions, definitely not implying anything here." Yue🌙 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

A major thing I think you're missing out on - is the fact that BEFORE concerned Wikipedians started to look into the page in late 2014... say even immediately before that (before the graph on the webarchives starts to go up) - say the September 2014 version and everything before then... the page only had 9 sources. Of those 9 sources, one two authors actually used the term (Douglas Kellner, and William S. Lind). Their takes on the term are WILDLY OPPOSING.

Kellner says "Hey, some Marxists have commented on culture, this might be a kind of cultural Marxism, but it's not a set school, or movement, or ideology, I'm just going to write about which Marxists have been cultural or dealt with culture in their writing... and they all seem to believe there's a Capitalist hegemony in the west." that's Kellner.

William S. Lind says "Cultural Marxists" (he capitalizes both words, indicating he's formed a proper noun, or label identifying a concrete movement/group/ideology) - "Cultural Marxists are behind every Ivy League school, which are becoming more and more like North Korea! Cultural Marxists put gay people on Television! Cultural Marxism is political correctness, and gives you intellectual AIDS . Cultural Marxism was created by The Frankfurt School who didn't serve in world war 2, but instead worked in Hollywood! Karl Marx is behind modern progressive liberalism! They're also all Jewish!" - that's William S. Lind... and he'll go so far as to do this at Holocaust denial conferences.

Later versions of the article have more sources that perhaps touch on the term, but they're from both of these conflicting camps. So Misplaced Pages didn't do anything in this debate, it merely observed (quite rightly) that these two camps existed, and were saying UTTERLY DIFFERENT things. Misplaced Pages doesn't like having pages where only 2 sources are actually relevant, and one of those sources - is kind of a conspiracy nut. We don't like to use conspiracy theories, as if they're WP:RS reliable sources. So Misplaced Pages now has two different pages, one for the kind of paleoconservative Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory that Lind largely is responsible for having started, the other for the type of Marxist cultural analysis that Douglas Kellner was writing about. That's what happened here, it just took a long time. The various moments of bureaucracy you've catalogued were part of Misplaced Pages's process in making sure we were respecting the sources, and their subject matter.

Because The Frankfurt School are the actual subject matter for the conspiracy theory. People like William S. Lind can say things about The Frankfurt School - but if those things aren't true, if they're verifiably false (for instance, the Frankfurt School never "worked in Hollywood" as in the movie industry, as Lind suggests. They had no part in putting gay people on Television as Lind suggests, they're not even all Jewish as Lind suggests - Habermas was not from a Jewish background, most of them weren't practicing Jews). So I believe ultimately Misplaced Pages did its best to situate and differentiate between the conspiracy theory version of "the facts".... and the actual facts. That's what's happened here. That's why I can point to these two drastically different sources on the 2014 version, because it's the facts of the matter. It's how things went down, and where they'll likely stay. 101.115.130.228 (talk) 08:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

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