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October 26

Swimming the English Channel, legal aspects

Swimming the English Channel is a list of notable swimmers, plus details on a few specific swims. However, nothing's said about the legal/diplomatic aspects; from an international border perspective, how does swimming the Channel work? Must the successful swimmer present himself to the destination country's customs officials as soon as possible? I'm left wondering if perhaps this accomplishment is rare enough, and its attempts heavily publicised enough, that the customs authorities tend to make special allowances for it, as was done for Lynne Cox when she swam from the US to the Soviet Union (the Diomede Islands) during the Cold War. Nyttend (talk) 03:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Same as visitors arriving by boat. Even the first (failed) attempt with no artificial aid in 1872 had a support boat.
Sleigh (talk) 04:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

See https://www.channelswimmingassociation.com/swim-advice/administration-of-swims Nanonic (talk) 11:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

"If you intend to enter France instead of returning to England, you will need to enter as a normal visitor and comply with all the usual regulations (AND inform the CSA and your pilot well in advance that this is your plan).

You are permitted to land on the Beach and then return to your Escort Boat for the journey back to England .....but please note that all Swimmers and Passengers should carry their Passport (and any Visa, if appropriate) on the Escort Boat in case they are requested by the relevant Authorities to provide Proof of Identity either before, during, or after the Swim.

Be aware that escort boats can be boarded and occasionally are boarded." Nanonic (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

What a disgrace.

Is this what we defeated the Prussians for?

I mean, the Russians?

Does this include all arrivals to Northern France by water, or only those who weren't cut down by the Krauts' concentrated fire?

Al. M. G. 2004 (talk) 15:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

What car is that?

I wonder what car they are standing in front of in this picture:

Could someone identify it?

(Other automobiles in the picture are more easily dentified, probably because they are more common vehicles.)

Ove Raul (talk) 08:47, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

fiat coupe 850? 119.17.158.183 (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Already in the categories on the image: Fiat 850 Coupé Andy Dingley (talk) 11:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you! Ove Raul (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

October 27

Turquoise cheese and margarine

In The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (video game), there is a part which goes:

"The barman gives you a cheese sandwich. The bread is like the stuff that stereos come packed in, the cheese would be great for rubbing out spelling mistakes, and the margarine and pickle have performed an unedifying chemical reaction to produce something that shouldn't be, but is, turquoise. Since it is clearly unfit for human consumption, you are grateful to be charged only a pound for it."

I remember the turquoise thing from when I was a kid in the 1980s, so I can attest that it wasn't caused by mould, nor by the margarine being dyed. But what was it? I haven't seen it for decades, thankfully. Marnanel (talk) 17:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what he's talking about (I was a young adult in Britain in the 1980s), but for the benefit of non-Britons, the "pickle" in question is Branston pickle or one of its imitators. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps a reaction with garlic? , --136.56.165.118 (talk) 14:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Good find, but there's no garlic in Branston pickle (I just looked at my jar). Alansplodge (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

But! The almost original recipe Branston pickle does contain garlic, according to food.com.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wonderful. Thank you all! Marnanel (talk) 15:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

October 28

Did women having to wear skirts have anything to do with menstruation?

As in, before menstruation products became good and accessible, seems like pants would have been more prone to blood going through and been visible? Was it more of a menstruation taboo/norm thing than a blind sexism thing?

Couldn't find anything about this on the page Skirt nor the page Culture and menstruation. Wallby (talk) 07:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

More importantly, urinating. Abductive (reasoning) 10:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe that explains kilts. <-Baseball Bugs carrots-> 10:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I imagine it was originally more to do with preserving women's modesty, until hemlines shortened in the 20th century having the opposite effect. Note that today, most Orthodox Jewish women do not wear trousers for reasons of modesty. Alansplodge (talk) 12:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The article Trousers as women's clothing may be of interest: menstruation is nowhere mentioned. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 12:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the real question why men started to wear trousers? In ancient times, weren't robes and such standard dress for all? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Khajidha -- In ancient times, trousers were worn mainly by peoples who had a way of life which relied intensively on horse-riding. In the eyes of the Greeks and Romans, such peoples were barbarians, so that tunics and togas were considered civilized wear, as opposed to barbaric trousers. As barbarian tribes increasingly impinged on civilized zones of both the Roman and Persian empires, trousers became worn by cavalry soldiers, then more widely in societies. But well into the European middle ages, upper-class males or males with certain special statuses (such as priests), still often wore robes. Among ordinary people, the hemlines of men's tunics were often higher than those of women, but it wasn't until the roughly the 1400s that some men commonly exposed most of their legs (encased in leggings or "hose") in a way that would have been considered indecent if done by a woman. From then on, the trousers for men vs. dresses for women dichotomy developed, but male priests, males involved in formal academic ceremonies, and royals at coronation etc. ceremonies still sometimes wear robes today... AnonMoos (talk) 14:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Recurrent experimenting of meditative states and dancing shadows sessions in the obscurity of the dark backroom seem to have teached many an Emperor's adviser's ancestors that Truth that the most impressive allure which could be held - without having to appear mounted - was getting out of the shades with the same silhouette as the mountaineer out of the forest on a foggy Sunday Morning ( undocumented ). --Askedonty (talk) 20:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Ötzi the Iceman, 5300 before present, in his belongings had a rain cloak made of woven grass (see: esparto). Fully clothed with the cloak on he would have looked like a greyish bird of prey standing, only with bizarre appendices (his weapons), as seen from a distance. During the course of the two following millenia those with the same trade and skills will have had grass replaced with wool, much lighter tanned leather than previously, and other kinds of fabrics. This all only giving more dynamics in their appearance.

The lightest and longest (wikt:long#Adjective 13.) of such cloaks so had to become capes. They had to be seen sometimes floating in the wind.

There come the dancing shadows, only the heathstone was in an other place so that was the solitary flame of a small lamp that the spirituality minded was studying. Now one competing posture could be devised. A dynamic move leading upwards instead of more systematically downwards. And so, that would be the speaker who would be impersonating wind all by himself. That would not be in a place where you would have found necessary to cover your legs, otherwise than so. Sandals suffice. --Askedonty (talk) 21:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The sarong is popular in tropical climes, perhaps in response to superficial fungal infections such as thrush. Doug butler (talk) 21:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Israel: Matriculation rate by religion

According to the most recent data, what's the % of people who have successfully passed Israel's high school matriculation examination among the population of the 18yo age group (not only among the students who sat for the exam)? (out of all How does this differ among religious groups? I found different numbers:

• 2019 ToI: "Fully 70.9% of Christian high schoolers achieve college-entry matriculation grades, slightly higher than Jews (70.6%), and higher still than Druze (63.7%) and Muslims (45.2%)."
• 2022 INN: "91.3% of Druze gain matriculation certificate compared to just 26.2 percent of haredi students."
• Druze_in_Israel#Educational_prospects: "According to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics census in 2020, 79.9% of Druze in Israel were entitled to a matriculation certificate, which was higher than the number of Muslims (60.3%), but was lower than the Christians (83.6%) and Jews (80.2%) with a matriculation certificate."
• Christianity_in_Israel#High_school_and_matriculation_exams: "In 2016 Arab Christians had the highest rates of success at matriculation examinations, namely 73.9%, both in comparison to Muslim and Druze Israelis (41% and 51.9% respectively), and to the students from the different branches of the Hebrew (majority Jewish) education system considered as one group (55.1%)."

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

All kinds of things come to mind. The en.wiki and he.wiki don't say if you can take or retake the exam when you are, say, 19. The figures might be for all people, all Israeli citizens, all students (including or not dropouts), or just all students who got a high school completion diploma (perhaps just a snapshot collected in a particular year by calling around to the high schools). Abductive (reasoning) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Do we have the latest official data somewhere? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

chief,

don't you answer your own question, when you give statistics from different years?

census in 2020' ... 'in 2016' ... 2019 and 2022 second-order sources as well, chief,

what percentage of israeli high-schoolers graduate high school (because the English article mentions a diploma, which is issued separately, simply for completion of twelve years of study, in the Israeli system)

compare this with the total population of this age cohort behind the allenby line, or what-have-you, and the percentage attaining bagrut, then you will have your answer

Al. M. G. 2004 (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Ramsese II colossus

You used to have images of Ramsesii colossus and how it was displayed. I cannot find the page and I looked all 75.99.255.115 (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Try Category:Ramses II colossal statue in Memphis over on Wikimedia Commons. Alansplodge (talk) 19:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

See also Statue of Ramesses II and Ramesses II § Building projects and monuments.  --Lambiam 11:09, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Longest recorded flight

What was the longest flight in world history? I'm strictly interested in duration, regardless of manned/unmanned status, refuelling, distance flown, etc.: the only limitation is that I'm not interested in spacecraft. Almost everything I find on Google is related to the longest scheduled airline flights. Flight endurance record addresses the question, but it bears {{Incomplete list}}, and all of its top-duration flights are small piston-engined or experimental solar-powered aircraft. The source for the longest one of all, , merely speaks of it as the "world endurance record in a propeller-driven airplane", so I'm further questioning whether there might be something longer, e.g. if a major country's military wanted to keep an important aircraft aloft at all times for a while. Nyttend (talk) 19:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Operation Power Flite (45 hours and 19 minutes) might be of interest. Alansplodge (talk) 19:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Rutan Voyager flew around the world in 216 hours without refueling, stopping, or exiting the atmosphere. --Amble (talk) 20:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Breitling Orbiter flew around the world in 478 hours. Despite the name, it was a balloon, not a spacecraft. --Amble (talk) 20:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Airbus Zephyr S is an unmanned aircraft that flew continuously for 64 days. --Amble (talk) 20:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The longest item on the list I found, a Cessna 172, flew a little longer than the Airbus Zephyr. Nyttend (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

A Google Loon flew for 312 days in 2019-2020 . —Amble (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

October 29

King of Albania: unfulfilled promises

From King of Albania:

While the medieval Kingdom of Albania was a monarchy, it did not encompass the entirety of modern Albania. Although discontent among Albanian nobles emerged by 1282 due to the Angevin king's unfulfilled promises, the kingdom did not end at that time.

What is meant by “unfulfilled promises?” The article provides no citation nor does it elaborate any further in the body. ―Howard • 🌽 07:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Who puts a conjunction at the beginning of an introduction? That's horrible. Well, I restored the word "Angevin" from the first sentence, which was removed two edits ago by an IP editor without explanation, and now you have a bit more context. I think you're supposed to read the article Regnum Albaniæ (good luck typing that), AKA Kingdom of Albania (medieval), where we read (buried mid-paragraph halfway down the second section!) Charles signed a treaty with them and was proclaimed King of Albania "by common consent of the bishops, counts, barons, soldiers and citizens" promising to protect them and to honor the privileges they had from Byzantine Empire. Then further on, Charles of Anjou imposed a military rule on Kingdom of Albania. The autonomy and privileges promised in the treaty were "de facto" abolished and new taxes were imposed. Lands were confiscated in favor of Anjou nobles and Albanian nobles were excluded from their governmental tasks. In an attempt to enforce his rule and local loyalty, Charles I, took as hostages the sons of local noblemen. This created a general discontent ... did it really, you surprise me. Anyway everything about an article whose introductory sentences require close reading of another article for context is terrible. Somebody who isn't me should definitely fix this.  Card Zero  (talk) 08:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I am satisfied with this answer. ―Howard • 🌽 08:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Contingent Elections in the US House of Representatives

I have been trying to determine how Trump might interfere with the election, and it seems clear that he is aiming for a contingent election in the House of Representatives. This would occur if neither candidate received 270 or more electoral votes. I assume that the procedure would be to stall or prevent the certificates of the electors to be sent to Congress. I am a little uncertain on how certificates could be blocked or stalled from the states, and I have received conflicting answers. How could this occur, and is there any legal remedy to force certificates to be sent from the slate of electors? 2600:8807:C306:A200:48E:DBF5:EC65:9227 (talk) 01:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022 was passed to avoid some of these scenarios. Under the US Constitution, the state legislatures have ultimate authority over the electoral college votes of each state, but if legislators made last-minute procedural changes AFTER an election whose result they didn't like, that would be very problematic (the Constitution also forbids "ex post facto laws"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I am afraid there is little (other than the threat of imprisonment) stopping a state's governor from certifying a different slate of electors than those actually elected. Another scary scenario is that the chaos in a state is so overwhelming that no one has any certainty about the winner when December 17 arrives, so it is unknown who the electors are that should meet that day.  --Lambiam 12:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

yes, there is little, other than his own convictions, his loyalty to the Republic, to stop him, although, such compunctions are marred by the constant fearmongering of legacy media about the 'fascist' trump, the 'threat' to the democratic system, which, as it would seem to any observer without the trained eyes of NYT columnists, who refer to Sumy as a village, who raise alarm over Chinese 'pillers' on the Nepalese border, who, who, it's incredible, you know,

I am sure that plenty of happy accidents, organized by our dear friends in Langley, would ensue, precluding any such eventuality

but you shouldn't worry, because you know that we will carry in the states which Howard Dean famously enumerated, and in yet more, such that even before the sun has descended beyond the Aleutians no contention will remain 130.74.59.162 (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't know this. You evidently possess a secret source of information to which I have no access.  --Lambiam 17:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The Mississippi IP's secret source is probably QAnon. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

My sources are Nate Silver, Allan Lichtman, the Times, and the Post 130.74.59.32 (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

And QAnon. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

bless your heart 130.74.59.32 (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

you see, it's the most beautiful thing.

stunning, tremendous.

the whole country has shifted to the right 130.74.58.174 (talk) 13:14, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The question assumes facts not in evidence. Why do you think Trump is aiming to send the election into the House? I wouldn't be surprised if that's a backup plan somewhere in his group, but at the moment he seems to have at least a fair shot at just winning the Electoral College outright, which seems much more straightforward and less fraught. --Trovatore (talk) 22:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you,

setting aside all sectional contentions, I hope that it will be for the best,

and that the general tariffs will not exceed the promised figure of two hundred per cent,

a rude awakening and sharp adjustment, necessary for the survival of our Country and for final victory, after decades of the exercise of the establishment of great hubris in faith in the 'end of history', and even in 'nearshoring' to such locales as Indonesia and the Philippines in the face of looming global war, the submarine and hypersonic menace, war assuming the character of a game with perfect knowledge, etc., etc.

Two hundred percent! A thousand percent import duty! A wall in front of the First Island Chain, up from the seabed! The bill delivered to Zhongnanhai!

A truce in Ukraine for victory in the Far East, because Russia is an obstacle to China,

and we are contending ultimately with the Chinese ...

Not even radical life extension, not even biological immortality can bring about the End of History, although, one hopes that Fukuyama will see this borne out 130.74.59.32 (talk) 130.74.59.32 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

You sound like a looney. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I am a stable genius. 130.74.59.29 (talk) 03:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Mister Ed!?  Card Zero  (talk) 08:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Welp… This thread didn’t age well, did it? No need for a “plan B” when “plan A” (win the election outright) works. Blueboar (talk) 13:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

October 30

Is ביתדוד a partial reconstruction in the Tel Dan stele?

I thought I'd read the w was an inferred and reconstructed letter in bitdwd but that's not mentioned on its page. I may be mistaken. What was the first paper to include the Davidic conclusion? Are the images in the Wikimedia category reproductions? The text is inscribed with unusual clarity, including the pertinent.

Temerarius (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd say the 2nd image is a photo from a museum. I don't think the highlighting looks like it was added by the user, it looks like it was a photo of a photo from a different museum exhibit than the one in the first photo. Andre🚐 20:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you're thinking of the Mesha Stele, which has also been claimed to refer to the House of David? In that case some of the letters are damaged and have to be reconstructed. --Amble (talk) 21:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Amble, thank you! I think that's exactly how my memory went wrong.

Temerarius (talk) 22:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

November 1

Has George Will endorsed anyone in the coming U.S. presidential election?

As I was saying: Does anyone know of an endorsement by George Will in the coming U.S. presidential election? Did he say explicitly that he's not endorsing anyone? 178.51.16.158 (talk) 01:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Harris. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

"In September 2024, Will announced that he would vote for Kamala Harris in the 2024 United States presidential election." This statement was added to our article on George Will on September 17. Then still somewhat hidden deep down in the article, this information was added to its lead section the next day.  --Lambiam 07:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Worth checking the article first, hunh? I'll have to keep reminding myself! 178.51.16.158 (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I grew up reading George Will. The irony is that he's the reason we got Trump as a president, twice. Viriditas (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Did he endorse Trump in 2016? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm talking about Will's philosophy vis-à-vis libertarianism, not who he endorses or supports. When I grew up, Will was a huge cheerleader for Reagan, which is how we got into this mess. Reagan, via Paul Weyrich and others, opened the floodgates for the Christian nationalists, who now believe Russia leads the world in maintaining and preserving conservative Christianity. American Christian nationalists believe that democracy is a threat to Christianity, a bizarre idea that led them to forge alliances with Russia and eventually, Trump. You don't have to believe me, but those are the facts. The Heritage Foundation was funded by the same libertarians Will supported, and who are now tasked with converting the US into a hybrid, corporate-theocratic governing body. Viriditas (talk) 10:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Cool story, bro. No evidence adduced. Let me tell you a story in a similar vein, likewise without evidence: Reagan's rise was ultimately a corrective to the massive statism of Lyndon Johnson, whose policies led to the malaise of the Carter years. The one who actually started the correction, in an interesting irony of fate, was Carter, not Reagan.

But Carter was burdened by what had been, in his party. The time was not ripe for center-left parties to take credit for free-market policies; that would have to wait for the Clinton—Blair years of dear memory.

So Reagan got the credit (not entirely undeserved) for the resulting boom in the 1980s.

We do not in fact "know 40 years on that Reagan was wrong". Oh, he was wrong about many things. But not about his liberal economics; that was fine. It was picked up by perhaps the second-best president of my lifetime, Bill Clinton, whom the GOP of the time insisted of making an enemy of for some reason. --Trovatore (talk) 05:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

You’re essentially correct about Carter; that is a well known and oft-repeated anecdote. But Clinton signed NAFTA and supported globalization and promoted neoliberalism which was not beneficial to most people in the US and elsewhere. You appear to be about two decades behind in your analysis. Viriditas (talk) 19:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Clinton signed NAFTA, which was good, and promoted neoliberalism, which was also good. --Trovatore (talk) 19:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Branko Milanović: "Why is a neoliberal ruler worse than the “all-encompassing-interest” despot? Precisely because he lacks the all-encompassing interest in his polity as he does not see himself as being part of it; rather he is the owner of a giant company called in this case the United States of America where he decides who should do what. People complain that Trump, in this crisis, is lacking the most elementary human compassion. But while they are right in diagnosis, they are wrong in understanding the origin of the lack of compassion. Like any rich owner he does not see that his role is to show compassion to his hired hands, but to decide what they should do, and even when the occasion presents itself, to squeeze them out of their pay, make them work harder or dismiss them without a benefit. In doing so to his putative countrymen he is just applying to an area called “politics” the principles that he has learned and used for many years in business. Trump is the best student of neoliberalism because he applies its principles without concealment."

Popular dissatisfaction with the effects of neoliberalism is how we got Trump, and in return, we get more. Nice feedback loop. Viriditas (talk) 19:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Neoliberalism is precisely not the guy at the top deciding who will do what. It's letting people choose how they order their economic lives on their own. And Trump is very far removed from it. --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. Trump is the very embodiment of neoliberalism, its end result, as it were. Viriditas (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

You might be overstating Will's influence. If you want to blame someone, you could blame Goldwater. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

What a fun game. I blame Roosevelt. fiveby(zero) 13:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Or more specifically, Roosevelt's opponents. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Like blaming Burr for not shooting that bastard soon enough? fiveby(zero) 17:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Will’s influence on Americans was substantial. He made a case for Reaganomics being as natural as baseball and apple pie. Except 40 years on, we know he was wrong. The largest fruit of Reagan was financialization, which destroys every sector it touches, weakens nations, encourages fascism, and promotes inequality. Viriditas (talk) 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

How do companies spin off subsidiaries of the parent company?

How do companies spin off subsidiaries of the parent company? What is the process of spinning off subsidiaries? Do the parent company sell shares of the spin off company to its shareholders WJetChao (talk) 03:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The processes of spinning-off a subsidiary are: first, the parent company groups the line of business to form a subsidiary; second, the parent company transfers the relevant assets to the newly formed subsidiary. Third, the parent company distributes the newly formed subsidiary’s shares to existing shareholders on a pro rata basis as a special dividend. Finally, the newly formed subsidiary is listed separately as an independent company and probably it will also issue and sell shares to the public (the process is called initial public offering or IPO). Stanleykswong (talk) 08:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Searching for a PD image of the seal of Patriarch Amalric

I am a bit frustrated. In a snippet view of Sigillographie de l'Orient latin I see that it probably contains an image of the seal of Amalric of Nesle, Latin patriarch of Jerusalem. It is presumably the image of the seal depicted at this site too. Alternatively it might be showing the patriarch's bulla, like this one. The book is in public domain and so we could use its images of seals, but I cannot find it online. This time last year I asked here for help regarding another seal from the same book, and Lambiam and Alansplodge brilliantly found it in another book, but I am not sure that will work now. I will also ask at WP:RX. Surtsicna (talk) 09:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There's a copy of that book on archive.org here. I can't seem to connect to it at the moment, I'm not sure if this is a general issue or my sketchy internet connection. Alansplodge (talk) 13:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately it is misidentified, Alansplodge. That is another book, which can be seen from the title on its cover. And yes, I too have had troubles with archive.org lately. Surtsicna (talk) 13:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, apologies. The Hathi Trust catalogue record has a publication date of 1943 and says that it "is not available online - search only — due to copyright restrictions". Alansplodge (talk) 16:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I found a reference to "la bulle de plomb du roi de Jérusalem, Amauri I (1162–1173), qui a été publiée par M. le Marquis de Vogüé". The reference is to: Melchior de Vogüé, "Monnaies inédites des croisades", la Revue numismatique 1864, pp. 275–293 & pl. XIII, nr. 1.  --Lambiam 18:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Isn't that Amalric of Jerusalem? fiveby(zero) 18:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, sorry.  --Lambiam 18:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:RX came through. The seal image is taken from the lost Anastasis mosaic correct? Looks similar to that in the Melisende Psalter. fiveby(zero) 18:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Is this photo of the seal of Amalric at Dumbarton Oaks public domain? (Or is this photo of a different seal from doaks.org on Commons not really PD as claimed? Or maybe that user patiently went through the request process.) Edit: yes, I think you can upload that to Commons, assuming they photographed it in the US and it counts as two-dimensional. It is unfortunately worn-out and lacks details (such as a face) and the one that was in the auction house Is much nicer.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I received the page from Bsoyka at WP:RX. I must say that exceeded my expectations. Unfortunately, there is no image at all on those pages. Instead the book seems to point to the same source in which Lambiam found last year's seal: this book. I do not see Amalric's seal there, however. The only seal of a patriarch I see is that of William of Malines (though that too would be worth uploading). Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

(I'm not familiar with the subject matter here, but definitely reach out if I can try to provide any other book scans or other resources. I can access millions of items in some way or another, and I'm always happy to share them.) Bsoyka (t • c • g) 19:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Considering that the auction house that sold the fine quality seal is Swiss, wouldn't their photo be public domain?  Card Zero  (talk) 21:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Card_Zero, as far as I know, seals are considered three-dimensional and so any photograph of a seal counts as an original work of art. At least that is why Wikimedia Commons is so severely lacking in seals and we have to resort to 19th-century hand-drawn reproductions. Surtsicna (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Russo-Korean war

Norway–Russia border says this:

Yet the Russia–Norway border is the only one of Russia's borders where an open war between the two bordering countries has not taken place.

The next sentence goes on to exclude the Petsamo–Kirkenes offensive, between Russia and German soldiers on site during the Second World War, so clearly it's talking about the current country rather than past occupiers.

Has there ever been open warfare between Russia and North Korea, or between Russia and Korea before 1945? (There is no Russo-Korean War article.) Not knowing much about the geography of the region, I'm unsure whether anything in the Russo-Japanese War article covers this border (even if Japanese control of Korea is treated differently from German control of Norway), and basically all I know about the war is naval anyway. The Soviet–Japanese War article likewise doesn't convey much to me, aside from the fact that the conflict was largely in Manchuria and Pacific islands; all I can see in Korea is related to invasion from Manchuria and an amphibious assault that didn't involve the border zone. Nyttend (talk) 19:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Soviet forces began amphibious landings in Korea by 14 August and rapidly took over the northeast of the country, and on 16 August they landed at Wonsan. from Division of Korea#Liberation, confusion, and conflict. However, Japan surrendered on 15 August 1945. Alansplodge (talk) 23:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

So basically, no, Soviet forces didn't cross the border against the Japanese in 1945. What about at any time outside the Japanese suzerainty? Nyttend (talk) 19:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't recall Russia having any wars with Belarus, Azerbaijan, Mongolia, Kazakhstan... Was there "an open war" with the USA on the Chukotka-Alaska border? In any case, Nordsletten hardly qualifies as an authority on Russian history. Ghirla 19:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

All of those countries were part of the Imperial Russian empire, so I assume they were conquered by force at some point. It depends how much continuity you assume between modern Russia and it's Tsarist predecessor, and those states and whoever was governing that region in the past. Chuntuk (talk) 12:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are wrong. Mongolia was never a part of the Russian Empire. Neither Kazakhstan nor Belarus were "conquered by force". In effect, Nordsletten's odd claim is a just another black legend about Russia (which en.wiki has been inundated with). Ghirla 21:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

What about the Soviet intervention in Mongolia#Soviet invasion of Mongolia in 1921? Not quite a straight conflict between Russia as such and Mongolia as such, but not far short, and on or around their mutual border. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.7.95.48 (talk) 17:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The Battles of Khalkhin Gol were a major Soviet-Japanese conflict over Mongolia. And the author of File:Caricature for Riga Peace 1921.png would probably dispute with you about force being used to establish Soviet control of Belarus. AnonMoos (talk) 20:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Does any of this qualify as "an open war between the two bordering countries"? I still see no evidence of a war between Russia and Mongolia on the current border, between Russia and Belarus, between Russia and USA (on the Far Eastern border), between Russia and Lithuania on their current border, etc. In other words, the article's statement is fake. Ghirla 00:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The Russo-Japanese War was largely fought around and about Korea, and there was fighting such as the Battle of the Yalu River on the Korean border. The battles were not fought at the small modern Russian-Korean border, though. There was fighting between the Soviet Union and the Empire of Japan in 1938 at the Battle of Lake Khasan, very near the triple point between Russia, China, and North Korea, although not quite on the Russian-North Korean portion. --Amble (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

November 2

Indian princely state

Suzerainty#India refers to a tiny state of Babri, "with a population of 27 people and annual revenue of 80 rupees". Do we have an article on it anywhere? Babri redirects to Babri Masjid, a mosque at the centre of a long-running politico-religious controversy in India; Babri (state) doesn't exist; and Special:Search/Babri mostly contains references to the Babri Masjid with a few random other things like Helvijs Babris. Nyttend (talk) 19:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

There were many hundreds of princely states, 485 in Western India States Agency alone, and as that article says some were little more than villages or farms. DuncanHill (talk) 19:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Wow, I had no idea there were so many tiny ones; I figured most princely states were on the level of Faridkot or Bussahir at least. How didn't the tiny ones get conquered and amalgamated centuries earlier? Nyttend (talk) 20:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the very small ones were early John Company grants to local tax-gatherers and the like, that never got tidied up. If the right tax or tribute was paid, and no real trouble arose, there wasn't any real imperative to change things. The source used for Babri in the Suzerainty article looks like it's quoting another work, but I don't know which one. I don't know of a definitive list, I suspect you could work your way through the articles in Category:Agencies of British India, but even then I doubt we name them all. DuncanHill (talk) 22:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. I figured it would be in the Company's best interests and the Mughal emperors' best interests to mediatise little states — fewer states with imperial immediacy means less bureaucracy to deal with all your subject states, and fewer subject rulers who can cause local problems for you — so I assumed that little states were left over from tumultuous times in the past. Nyttend (talk) 20:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

But lots of little states, especially if they are rivals to one another, are less of a threat to your ongoing control than a few big ones would be. Divide and conquer, as they say. Chuntuk (talk) 13:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Nyttend -- there were a lot of tiny estates of Imperial Knights in the Holy Roman empire, until the Napoleonic wars caused a consolidation. AnonMoos (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It's a small print-sly state. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

i double over 130.74.58.20 (talk) 03:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

November 4

Looking for article about gullibility of conservatives

Today I came across a scholarly paper about how US conservatives are more susceptible to believing falsehoods than non-conservatives, and then to my surprise I found other reliable sources providing in-depthreporting on this phenomenon — enough sources to establish notability for the topic.

Because the studies have been out for a few years, I thought I'd find a Misplaced Pages article about it, but I can't find one. I would be surprised if it hasn't been written yet, so I suspect I'm searching for the wrong thing. Do we have such an article, or should I start drafting one? ~Anachronist (talk) 23:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It would be better to add such material to the Conservatism article itself, both to have it vetted by the community, and because it will get read a lot more there. That article already has a section on Psychology with subsections Conscientiousness, Disgust sensitivity, Authoritarianism, Ambiguity intolerance, Social dominance orientation, and Happiness. Abductive (reasoning) 03:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. That's a broad-subject article, and this topic of gullibility seems to be restricted to the United States, not conservatives in general. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, we have a Conservatism in the United States article that you could consider. Nyttend (talk) 19:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not even really traditional philosophical conservatives, it's conspiratorial populists (some would say pseudo-populists) who are inheritors of the traditions discussed in the classic book The Paranoid Style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter. AnonMoos (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This kind of studies is about:

First, finding out the correlation between level of conservativeness (of a person) and how (he or she is) susceptible to believing falsehoods. In the wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/Conservatism_in_the_United_States, it mentioned “American conservatism is a large and mainstream ideology in the Republican Party and nation”. But the ideology is not a single dimension concept, how to measure ideology is difficult and different ways to measure ideology may give different results. Moreover, it is even more difficult to measure believing. There are many existing scales to measure believing, but none of them is comprehensive. Also, the world is not black and white, it is difficult to measure falsehoods.

Second, establishing the causal relationship is also difficult. Given that you can successfully establish the correlation, how can you prove that the causality is not a reverse, i.e. people who are more susceptible to believing falsehoods tend to being conservatives.

Therefore, I doubt whether there is a credible scholarly paper about this topic. But I think if you can sort out the definition and measurement problems, and you can establish the causal relationship in a convincing way, it could be a good research. Stanleykswong (talk) 11:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe it will be much easier to find references discussing how political extremists (on both sides) are more gullible. It isn't just politics. Religious extremists are more gullible. Racists extremists are more gullible. Gender rights extremists are more gullible. My personal opinion is that being gullible leads to becoming an extremist, but I am sure thare are many cases of brainwashing that lead to gullibility. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a young man many years ago. It came up that he was a Marine and I said that he didn't talk or act like a Marine. He said that the Marine attitude is forced through standard brainwashing techniques in boot camp, but if you know what the methods are and you know they are being used on you, they aren't very effective. So, another way to phrase that is if you are not gullible about the situation you are in, brainwashing attempts by other extremeists are less effective. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 12:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you that it is much easier to establish a link between extremists and gullibility. Also, brainwashing plays a key role. But I’m not sure what affects what. Are extremists more gullible or it is easier to turn gullible people into extremists? However, there is no doubt that brainwashing is an important moderating variable that affects the strength of the link between extremists and gullibility. Stanleykswong (talk) 13:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with you that if a person knows about what brainwashing methods can be used on him/her, brainwashing will be less effective. The question is how to collect data for a robust scholarly research. Stanleykswong (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

That is outside my realm as a reference librarian. I can give observations. I have observed multiple times that many scientists do not consider psychology to be science because you cannot do proper scientific research. In this specific case, there is no scientific measure of gullibility. There is no scientific measure of extremism. First, you need multiple publications to agree to a metric of each one. Then, you can get data to work with. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 14:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is the study: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abf1234 ~Anachronist (talk) 15:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I have been searching. I found opinion pieces. I don't trust those. I found multiple psychology articles that basically state that there is no correlation between being conservative and being biased (gullible) more than what is observed in liberals. There are more articles in recent times that tend to refer to modern politics as "post-truth." I haven't found anything remotely scientific. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 18:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Your comment is a reply to mine but it suggests that you didn't read the paper I linked. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The paper used a very interesting research method. Stanleykswong (talk) 18:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

So, this topic has been an interest of mine for about 25 years, or at least since Gore lost the election to Bush. I've gone back and forth, sometimes agreeing with it, and other times disagreeing with it. Weighing all the available evidence, I am forced to conclude that this observation is probably not supported all that much. The real turning point for me was seeing how easily pandemic misinformation spread in liberal communities formerly associated with democrats, and the simple truth is that we all know gullible liberals who believe in crystal nonsense. So to conclude, this is not a problem endemic to conservatives, as much as I would like to personally believe it is. It's a problem unique to all of humanity. Think about it. Reagan won by a similar landslide in 1980, and you had millions of liberals who got suckered into his morning in America nonsense. Viriditas (talk) 09:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, gullibility is not a problem endemic to conservatives or democrats. This is a problem endemic to some people across the political spectrum.

I think studying how misinformation about COVID-19 vaccination contributes to people’s refusal of vaccination is a potential research topic. Finding the percentage of people who refused vaccination because of misinformation across different positions on the political spectrum will help us understand what kind of people are more gullible to misinformation. Stanleykswong (talk) 12:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

During the COVID-19 pandemic, I saw articles referring to it as a "Republican" disease, because more Republicans were dying from it than Democrats, Republicans were least likely to be vaccinated, and most likely to buy into the nonsense (which Trump helped promote) about "safer" alternatives and the conspiracies behind the vaccine. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

That's all true, but I think the reason was because conservatives have highly sophisticated information distribution networks, whereas Democrats have almost none except for mainstream media which tends to lean center to center right. And yes, more conservatives in red states died due to this disinformation network. But there was still a huge problem with liberal communities accepting and promulgating COVID-19 misinformation, and this was an active area of research when it came to a phenomenon known as conspirituality, liberal to left-wing communities that were targeted with right-wing propaganda. The number of articles describing this controversy in yoga communities, for example, is well worth the read. It's a fascinating subject that illustrates how disinformation and propaganda can infect any community. Here on Maui, we saw this happen in real time after the wildfires in 2023. The entire population of Hawaii was targeted by foreign state actors with disinformation accusing liberals and Democrats of "attacking" Maui to push Hawaiians out of their homes and promote green cities. This disinformation was then intentionally echoed at the highest levels of the GOP, reinforcing the message that natural disasters are caused by liberals. Keep in mind, this is not a new thing. The GOP had been doing this for decades, often blaming devastating tornadoes on homosexuality and abortion. When Tucker Carlson returned from his trip to Russia, he began using the same old playbook, blaming powerful US hurricanes on abortion, not climate change. The thing that was different about the Hawaii wildfires, is that propaganda researchers traced much of the messaging to Chinese and Russian sites, who appeared to be working closely with members of the GOP in congress to coordinate their talking points. The idea that autocrats and authoritarians, particularly those who are part of BRIC countries, have infiltrated the Republican Party through Trump, the NRA, and members of the larger Koch network and associated religious groups such as the Council for National Policy, is no longer a conspiracy theory, but well established. The US is just months away from dismantling NATO and becoming closer allies with Russia, Iran, North Korea, and China. If you tell conservatives this, they often have a response: "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat." Viriditas (talk) 23:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

November 5

About a possible English language article for Egyptian poet Samir Darwish?

Hello all,

Copied from this over at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Egypt.

Yo no hablo árabe - aiuto, per favor.

Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're asking @Shirt58. As usual in a volunteer project, the best (and nearly the only) way to get somebody else to work on a particular article is to engage somebody's interest - and that is most likely to be somebody who already has some interest in the topic. So the WikiProject, where you've already asked, seems more likely to find somebody than posting here. ColinFine (talk) 10:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

You can request an article on the poet at Misplaced Pages:Requested articles/Arts and entertainment/Literature § Authors (poets, novelists and fiction writers). Be sure to include a reference to the article on the Arabic Misplaced Pages.  --Lambiam 08:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Childe Hassam "California" (1919)

There's a painting on Commons and elsewhere that says it's by American Impressionist Childe Hassam named California, and is said to have been dated to 1919. It was apparently auctioned by Christie's in 2017. But I'm curious where in California this depiction is supposed to be from as it doesn't ring any bells. Hassam was known to stylize his paintings such that they would deviate from actual representations, most notably in his depiction of Point Lobos in 1914, where another artist voiced a complaint about this style. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources I can find have Hassam in and around San Francisco, but the painting does not look like the Bay Area. The foreground scene looks like the shore of Lake Tahoe, but the mountain peak does not. It looks more like Shasta or Lassen if anything. The bountiful harvest stacked up by the shore suggests it's more idealized than a real place. --Amble (talk) 00:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Shasta does seem more likely, but even Shasta doesn't look like that. I know Tahoe like the back of my hand, and that isn't it. I've only visited Lassen once, and I think that could be it. Viriditas (talk) 02:14, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The painting is much less representational than most of Hassam's work and reminds me a bit of an illustration for a children's book, but it does bear a certain resemblance to this photo of Lake Helen and Mount Lassen. Cullen328 (talk) 08:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

As for the possibility that it might be Mount Shasta, I doubt it. The classic lake view of Shasta is from Lake Siskiyou, and from that angle, the secondary peak Shastina is clearly visible to the left, resulting in in the memorable and distinctive double humped skyline. Cullen328 (talk) 08:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Viriditas (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Hassam did travel extensively in Oregon and Washington several years before he visited California, and he painted Hood and Saint Helens at least. I wonder if he may have drawn on those for his idealized California. —Amble (talk) 16:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I think you’re right. Viriditas (talk) 04:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

November 6

Does anyone know where the White House YT channel gets their orchestral background music from?

Do they compose it themselves or is it merely licensed from a third party? I cannot find anything about this Trade (talk) 15:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I listened to it. It sounds incredibly simple and basic, probably requiring a single computer workstation and a keyboard. In the clip you provide, you can hear a few notes/chords, and some effects. It's not a big deal and takes about 20 minutes to put together if you know what you're doing. Your confusion arises from thinking this is some kind of live orchestra. It's not. It's pretty obvious it's one person and a keyboard making those sounds. Viriditas (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

November 7

Block evasion.

Turkey bone

What happens when an American president-elect chokes to death on a turkey bone on Christmas Day, before inauguration in January, while he is still an ordinary citizen? The vice president-elect is still an ordinary citizen, too.

Since the president-elect is not a sitting president, then a president has not died therefore the vice president-elect cannot succeed a non-president?

Any resemblance in this question to actual persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental. Only the turkey is real. Spideog (talk) 09:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Spideog, the Twentieth Amendment to the United States Constitution says that if the president-elect dies before inauguration day, the vice president-elect gets sworn in instead. The issue is precisely when the winner legally becomes president-elect. One could argue that would be January 6 when Congresss certifies the electoral vote count. On the other hand, presidential transition legislation kicks in pretty early, and I read that Trump's transition team signed a lease for office space with the GSA today. Here is a relevant GSA press release.

See Second presidential transition of Donald Trump and United States presidential transition. Were Trump to die on Christmas Day, I suspect that there might be some legal maneuvering but I am pretty confident that JD Vance would be sworn in on January 20, 2025. Cullen328 (talk) 09:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: Thank you for your reply. Had I anyone actually in mind, your reply could have dashed my hopes, however, for legal reasons, "only the turkey is real". Spideog (talk) 09:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

President-elect of the United States notes that the US Code has a term for an individual in Trump's and Vance's current positions, "apparent successful candidates", given the need for months of transition. However, Trump hasn't actually been elected president yet — theoretically, there's nothing preventing all the Republican electors voting for Vance-Trump instead of Trump-Vance — so at the minimum, his special status for succession purposes doesn't start until the actual election in mid-December. Were he to die before then, the 1872 United States presidential election has a precedent, although it had no practical effect because the deceased candidate in that election was analogous to Harris, not Trump. Nyttend (talk) 22:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Format of US congressional committee testimony

Whenever I see older pictures of congressional committee testimony, the members are just sitting around a table with the person who's testifying; the physical format is very different from today, when the members all sit in a long line or two, facing the speaker who sits at a table or stands at a podium in front of the centre of the line of members. When did this change, and why? I'm guessing that the "why" is related to television news (the members all know each other and don't need the "Mr Soandso" signs, but they're useful for TV viewers; maybe the viewer-friendly format is meant for casual viewers too), but no idea when. Nyttend (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The Army-McCarthy hearings were probably the first to be intensively televised (as far as that was possible in 1954), and from what I can tell from searching in Google Images, used the table format... AnonMoos (talk) 01:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

A film about the 1957–1959 hearings of the McClellan Committee shows the testifying witnesses sitting at a separate witness table, facing a large oval table at which the committee members are seated on one side. At the Fulbright hearings of 1966, a clip such as that of the testimony of General James Gavin show the witness likewise seated at a separate table, facing a semicircular structure behind which the committee members are seated, with Fulbright in the middle.  --Lambiam 20:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

November 10

• Misplaced Pages resources for researchers
• Misplaced Pages help forums
• Misplaced Pages reference desk