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Image/source check requests

Requests should only be posted here for FAC nominations that have attracted several reviews and declarations of support. Premature requests can be removed by any editor.

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Pulgasari/archive1 needs a source review and a first timer's source to text fidelity check and a plagiarism check. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:39, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Hurra-yi Khuttali/archive2 needs someone who can check Farsi sources. Or vouch for the reliability of an online translator, any translator, that can work with Farsi. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Teddy Wynyard/archive1 needs a 2nd opinion on sourcing. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 19:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Tesla Model S/archive2 needs a source review. 750h+ 11:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

FAC mentoring: first-time nominators

A voluntary mentoring scheme, designed to help first-time FAC nominators through the process and to improve their chances of a successful outcome, is now in action. Click here for further details. Experienced FAC editors, with five or more "stars" behind them, are invited to consider adding their names to the list of possible mentors, also found in the link. Brianboulton (talk) 10:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

FAC source reviews

For advice on conducting source reviews, see Misplaced Pages:Guidance on source reviewing at FAC.

FAC reviewing statistics and nominator reviewing table for September 2024

Here are the FAC reviewing statistics for September 2024. The tables below include all reviews for FACS that were either archived or promoted last month, so the reviews included are spread over the last two or three months. A review posted last month is not included if the FAC was still open at the end of the month. The new facstats tool has been updated with this data, but the old facstats tool has not. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The following table shows the 12-month review-to-nominations ratio for everyone who nominated an article that was promoted or archived in the last three months who has nominated more than one article in the last 12 months. The average promoted FAC receives between 6 and 7 reviews. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Article that heavily uses one source

I'm considering Maria Stromberger for FAC, and I believe I've found all of the significant sources on this person. The problem is that one of them is much longer than the others. A few article-length sources have been written about her, but there's also one comprehensive book, a biography written by a historian who was given personal access to all of her records and documents. As a result, this one source dominates the article. I've highlighted the parts sourced to it at Special:PermaLink/1250335874, which is the majority of the article. Is this an issue in terms of the FA criteria? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't see that it necessarily would be: criterion 1c is the most obviously relevant here, and that requires a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. If this really is a representative survey of the relevant literature (and "it's the only book-length work on her and was published within the last five years" seems like a good reason to believe that this is true) then I can't see what else in WP:WIAFA that would violate. That said, I can't immediately think of an example of an FA which is quite so reliant on a single source – Aspasia comes to mind as a subject with a single monograph which dominates the scholarship, but it was published in 1995 and there have been several relevant articles and book chapters since, so Henry accounts for only about half of the references. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Herman the Archdeacon is up there as well. Hog Farm _Talk 20:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a better example – looks like the only comment about sourcing which came up at FAC was Heavy reliance on Licence, but it looks like that's the main source that exists. So looks like it's not a dealbreaker (though that review had pretty light participation, so I guess mileage may vary depending on how thoroughly individual reviewers grill you about justifying it?) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say it should be fine as long as the major facts are supported by other sources and any opinions are attributed. It's only a problem if one source is being used at the expense of all others. It's not uncommon, especially with biographies, to have one full-length book on a subject and lots of not-so-detailed sources. Those articles should still be able to become FAs. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The other possibility I'd suggest checking is whether there are relevant non-English sources not currently used. Those can be difficult to track in languages you don't know. (Not specific to this article, which I recognize does include non-English sources). Nikkimaria (talk) 23:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! I went over all of the other sources one more time and nominated the article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Additional source reviewers

If there are any folks willing to process Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates/Image and source check requests it would be very much appreciated. Especially folks familiar with videogames and popular culture topics (e.g Feather (song)) - I review these too but I am always a bit uncertain on the quality of the sources vis-a-vis the FA criterium "high-quality reliable source", as I am more familiar with academic subjects than these. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, you could sign off your SR at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Tesla and unions/archive1, which has been hanging for ten days now. SerialNumber54129 18:17, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Would a bit more politeness for someone who has done 123 source reviews at FAC this year alone hurt? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What impoliteness have you identified. SerialNumber54129 12:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I had the same reading of the "well, you could sign off..." as Airship: a "just checking whether you'd see this" on the talk page might have been more diplomatic. UndercoverClassicist 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That's been done. My question wasn't so much about sharing the workload and more about recruiting people who are familiar with these kinds of sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/It Was Hot, We Stayed in the Water/archive1 is one item where I have mostly completed the review but need a 2nd opinion (the dot 3) Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Since I've written my fair share of FAs on popular culture, I suppose I could do some but I'd rather not recuse that often so I might do it if nobody else turns up. FrB.TG (talk) 23:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I am currently on a wiki break, but I could do some source reviews for some of the more pop culture/entertainment FACs. I will likely not be able to do too much, but I want to help out where and when I can as I know that are a lot of nominations and work involved with the FAC process in general. Aoba47 (talk) 02:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

another

@FAC coordinators: may I nominate another article? (also to minimize needing to bug yall in the future, should I just presume its okay to nom a second article when it gets up to the required amount of source and prose reviews?) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I will respond here. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@Generalissima: But you don't know what the required amount of source and prose reviews are. No one can; it's dependent on every discrete nomination, every particular review, every individual coordinator. SerialNumber54129 22:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That's fair, there's certainly articles that need special attention, but doesn't 3 prose reviews/1 image review/1 source review generally hold as a minimum bar below which a nomination will get archived? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

1. What has whether a nomination will fail to reach a consensus to be promoted got to do with whether the nominator can nominate a second article? 2. See my response on the nomination's discussion page. 3. As a very general "rule" a nom needs source and image passes and three explicit general "supports" (not reviews as this nomination has) before a coordinator will even move on to 4. the stuff SN correctly alludes to – the intangible and ineffable aspects of a review page that we get the big bucks and the kudos for weighing and accrediting – and consider our binary output. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Basically what Gog said. Personally, I prefer to assess each nomination individually before allowing a second one. Although the minimum requirement of three supports, along with completed image and source reviews, is essential, I still examine the depth and quality of the reviews and the overall state of the article. FrB.TG (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Consensus apparently calls for the inclusion of material that fails the FA criteria

What do we do in situation like this where it's claimed a consensus of editors favors a version that in my opinion does not meet the FA criteria, specifically 1c, 1d, and 4? (t · c) buidhe 01:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

And in the consensus of other editors (myself included), that version meets these criteria more than the previous one... I will also note that nowhere, including in the linked discussion, you have expressed any concern about the sources used - until now. If you have concerns about some sources used, please discuss them on the article's talk page. They seem quite reliable to me, and they don't concern any REDFLAG content. Seriously, you are making a fuss over clarification of imprecise claim from your version (which stated "magnitude lower" that I have made more precise by adding "two to three percent", and addition of a single sentence linking to a directly relevant article about the group mentioned, i.e. Polish POWs (yes, it was longer before, I shortened it per consensus on talk, which you did not seem to have noticed)._{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm not sure how you even got all these editors to express interest in a discussion. Where was the notification?

The editor who considers a source HQRS is obviously the one who should be expected to defend it. In my opinion, the Piotrowski source is not HQRS and I have no idea about the other one.

For context, the editors on talk are trying to add content that is not about Soviet prisoners of war, and which no reliable source connects to the problem of Soviet prisoners of war, for "context". Naturally they add only one national group—the Poles—when as I mentioned, if this content is relevant several others are also—thus causing a POV issue where none existed before. (t · c) buidhe 02:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

While I see no problems with Piotrowski, I think we can remove this source as it is not necessary (particularly some details were removed). Other sources will suffice - feel free to remove him, I have no objection to this.

As for context, prior ("your") version already mentioned Italians and Poles; I've just added a precise estimate (which was already present for Italians, but not for Poles), and a blue link to a related article.

Since you mention 1c (well-researched), 1d (neutral) and 4 (length), IMHO (and I think in the opinions on others who commented there) it is your version who was not well-researched (missing the precise estimate and not mentioning clearly the existence of other similar groups). And adding one or two sentences is not an issue with length - let's be serious. Oh, and regarding your claim that sources do not discuss Polish and Soviet prisoners together - hogwash, as you should know from "your" version (ex. Gerlach 2016:165)

Oh, and on 1c, you should consult Polish and Soviet/Russian historiography on this topic. for example ("The article concerns the motif and theme of Soviet prisoners of war in Russian literature"), ("Crime, Politics, Humanitarism. Tragedy of the Soviet Captives on the Polish Land during the World War II") seem quite relevant, for example. I expect 'Legacy and historiography' section could be expanded much more than its current three short paragraphs with German, Russian and Polish studies. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• By the looks of it your argument has merit, but I don't believe it would be a good idea for anyone seeing this to comment as the above message is not neutrally worded, and could be considered WP:CANVASSing. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I commented at the article talk page before I saw this last comment about canvassing. I agree there's no doubt about what Buidhe's opinion is, so by that definition it constitutes canvassing. It's not as bad as "please come and support my position", though. When I started reading the discussion one thought I had was that the stability criterion might be at issue, in which case the right advice could be to withdraw until agreement had been reached. That's in line with the original question: "What should the nominator do when the consensus of others makes an article worse in a nominator's eyes?" The other issue with canvassing is that you're not supposed to request comments at a forum where you think everyone will agree with you -- e.g. calling Wikiproject members to vote stack at a discussion. I don't think it was possible to predict how the miscellaneous group of FAC regulars would react, so Buidhe could not know whether the additional readers of that discussion would come down on her side or not. Still, I agree that making it even more neutrally phrased would have been better. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, it's not in a bad location and it's not completely terribly phrased, but as you say it's obvious what buidhe's opinion is and let's be honest, most FAC regulars (certainly including myself) have probably taken her side of the argument before. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

FAC reviewing statistics and nominator reviewing table for October 2024

Here are the FAC reviewing statistics for October 2024. The tables below include all reviews for FACS that were either archived or promoted last month, so the reviews included are spread over the last two or three months. A review posted last month is not included if the FAC was still open at the end of the month. The new facstats tool has been updated with this data, but the old facstats tool has not. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The following table shows the 12-month review-to-nominations ratio for everyone who nominated an article that was promoted or archived in the last three months who has nominated more than one article in the last 12 months. The average promoted FAC receives between 6 and 7 reviews. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Science articles are underrepresented

For a long time there has hardly been any science articles at FAC. Perhaps someone could remind me of the last successful candidate? But we have one at FAC now which is not garnering much attention, which is a shame. I'm not canvassing for support, despite having given mine, but is there any chance of a few reviews? Graham Beards (talk) 14:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to take a look within the next couple days, although I've got quite a bit going on IRL. Hog Farm _Talk 16:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Ditto. I'll have time to review this weekend. I can take on the source review as well if no one beats me to it (please feel free to beat me to it). Ajpolino (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if it was the most recent, but off the top of my head there was Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Lise Meitner/archive1 not that long ago (if biography articles on scientists count). TompaDompa (talk) 16:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Right now we have Otto Hahn being reviewed. Plus of course Virgo interferometer, at which additional thoughts would be most welcome. I assume that science is being used in a way which excludes biology and geology? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Hurricane Dennis/archive1 counts as a science article, no? It has seven participants but only one review and is at risk of being archived. Adding onto that, it is a former featured article, which should be getting more views, especially because of its notable impacts in the Greater Antilles and the United States. _ZZ'S 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Using a broad definition of science, and not counting biographies, I think there have been five promoted this year (dates in brackets).

• Heptamegacanthus (26 Aug)
• Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (25 Aug)
• Dracunculiasis (22 May)
• Prostate cancer (22 Apr)
• Tropical Storm Hernan (2020) (7 Jan)

My apologies for any I missed. We need more. Graham Beards (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You missed Hurricane Cindy (2005). Its nomination was successfull on 27 September. I'm still surprised that a less notable, damaging, and deadly storm was promoted, but Hurricane Dennis, the opposite, is at a significant risk of being archived. _ZZ'S 17:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

There is also Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Socompa/archive1. That said, the reason why I am no longer writing many articles is because they need to be updated and my queue has just become too long. I think that's the general problem with science FAs, science isn't static in time so they become outdated. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

That's the case with many articles, not just science ones. If FAs are maintained, this should not be a problem. Also, many science articles are remarkably static. See Maxwell's equations, which is not a FA, but a good example of a stable science article. Graham Beards (talk) 11:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Aye, I know about Wōdejebato and relatives which also don't get much new research. I guess I just used up my space of "how many articles can I maintain" Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

That's what happens when you become a stellar contributor. :-) Graham Beards (talk) 11:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Tiger was promoted July 25. LittleJerry (talk) 14:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

There have been a few animals, both extant and extinct, they should count, no? FunkMonk (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

They do. _ZZ'S 14:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Bonn–Oberkassel dog (Aug 8) counts as a science article. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I would not call a typical hurricane article a science article. For sure, meteorology is a science, and there's plenty you can write about hurricanes in general which is about the science. But most of these are just cookie-cutter recitations of the specific facts about events that happen dozens of times a year. What was the track, where it made landfall, pressure readings, wind strengths, rainfall, damage caused. That's not science, that's just a data dump wrapped up in prose form with carefully formatted references. RoySmith (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes I agree, was thinking the same. Just because a hurricane comes about due to scientific phenomena does not make discussion of individual hurricanes scientific per se. We might as well argue Taylor Swift is science because she's made up of atoms, molecules, cells, mitochondria and all the rest of it 😏  — Amakuru (talk) 00:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Removing my comments for now. Will post again when I've had more time to think about the content. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Should WP articles aspire to meet the FA criteria?

I have argued at Talk:Pacific Repertory Theatre here that they should. Another editor argues: "A good number of us simply could not care less about GA/FA thing." Who is correct? Or is there a middle ground? Feel free to comment there either way. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

When we created an encyclopaedia that anyone could edit, we were confronted with the possibility that someone my take that literally. On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. So we created WP:Verifiability. People must be able to check that any of the information within Misplaced Pages articles is not just made up. This means all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources. Additionally, quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations. We also have other policies, such as neutral point of view and no original research. How do we make sure that articles conform with our policies? By a process of peer review whereby articles are checked. That is where GA and FA come in. It is the means by which we ensure the quality, reliability, neutrality and integrity of the Misplaced Pages. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to look at the content discussion at Talk:Pacific Repertory Theatre and see if you wish to express an opinion there. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm generally of the opinion that all articles should strive for GA and FA standards, but isn't this a little WP:CANVAS-y? It seems like anyone avidly watching this talk page would have a special appreciation for the process. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree too. I am not sure why this needs to be discussed here, or of all the articles here, choose one of the more contentious one under an active disagreement over other things. Graywalls (talk) 21:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Removing my comment for now. Will post later when I've had more time to think about them. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ssilvers aspire to, yes. But not every article can be featured or good. That doesn't mean we accept everything, nor that FA and GA aren't good to shoot for, but if every article should be able to be an FA or GA, just make those the minimum criteria for an article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

FA and GA absolutely could be a shelf-queen. You could have an absolute stunning luxury plane that is stunning in everyway, win awards and all on the ground even if it can't fly, because the ability to fly isn't part of the presentablility evaluation.

One of the fundamental requirements for a company article to even exist on Misplaced Pages is satisfying WP:NORG but Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_criteria lists out criteria that must be met to be FA, but GNG or NCORP isn't part of that. An ultra hyper local subject that's of great local interest and has been thoroughly and reliably documented in ultra hyper local sources can be polished up to pass these requirements. They can pass stability test like a lot of spam articles, because articles that only a few people care about tend to get left alone and pass stability test even if it fails NCORP.

It's not bad to have aspiration, but the desire for FA/GA can also be a great distraction and a source of bickering over aesthetics and presentation of a plane that ends up not being able to pass the minimum requirements of being able to fly. Graywalls (talk) 02:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

What a misguided load of claptrap. It's covered in the second sentence of the criteria "In addition to meeting the policies regarding content for all Misplaced Pages articles...", and satisfying GNG or NCORP is obviously part of that. Any article that doesn't pass basic notability guidelines won't make it through FAC - and there are many articles on local subjects that are both notable and at FA standard (to some extent, most things are "ultra hyper local", to use your hyperbole).The bigger point you are missing in your tortured and woeful metaphor is that we (as a project) should aspire to get all legitimate articles developed up to as high a standard as is possible, using all the reliable sources we can, despite your misguided thoughts about the FA process. - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_criteria/Archive_3#Notability_missing_from_GA_criteria one and not only one such discussion. Graywalls (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

And...? This is FA, not GA and I've already indicated the second sentence that articles have to be in line with relevant policies. I'm not sure why we're going off on this rather pointless tangent: the thread is about improving articles, which this side topic certainly isn't about. - SchroCat (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling to see how the conclusion makes sense here. The argument is that since some articles don't pass the notability guidelines, it's not worth improving any articles because...? Or is it that Pacific Repertory Theatre in particular isn't notable, and so it's not worth holding it to higher standards...in which case why isn't it at AfD? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

About a half dozen other Carmel, California-related articles were recently nominated for AfD, after editors had removed many of the refs, and much of the material in them. I detected this and restored key information and refs, and the AfDs failed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback would be meaningless without knowing what "aspire" in the OP means for the purposes of this discussion. It sounds like "nice idea" but could be reinterpreted as "be required to" or "any editor can apply GA or FA criteria to anything in an article which is neither. North8000 (talk) 21:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the recent discussions at Pacific Repertory Theatre, it should be clear what the disagreement is about. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd adopt quite the same framing as taken here: that is, I think the answer is more-or-less "yes", but that making the discussion about the FA criteria in themselves might miss the point. All Misplaced Pages articles should aspire to be good (in the full knowledge that most will never get there, and that "good enough" today usually beats "perfect" tomorrow), and the FA criteria are generally good sense as to what makes a quality article. In general, arguing for a change that would make an article more in line with the FA criteria is arguing for its improvement, and arguing for a change that would move it further away is arguing for the opposite.

I think I'm right in saying that practically all of the FA criteria are covered somewhere in the other PAGs (for example, the requirement to be comprehensive is an extension of WP:DUEWEIGHT, the requirement for professional-quality prose is a summary of the WP:MOS, and so on), so it should in theory be possible to make a policy-based argument for working towards the FA standards without needing to assert that those standards in themselves are themselves relevant to a given article. UndercoverClassicist 15:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Right, but the issue that I was asking about is deletion of referenced, relevant and, IMO, encyclopedic information from a particular article (and a group of related articles), and whether people think that these deletions do, in this case, follow these basic "aspirations" for WP articles. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The point I was trying to make is that, in theory, you shouldn't need to convince anyone that all articles should aspire to FA standard to demonstrate that doing that is wrong -- you only need point at WP:DUEWEIGHT, which is policy, and that it says Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. If it can be shown that a viewpoint is prominent in published reliable sources, it breaks WP:DUEWEIGHT (and so WP:NPOV) to remove it, assuming that all other criteria for its inclusion like copyvio, verifiability, BLP and so on are met. That's a lot harder to wiggle out of than the FA standards, especially in an article that's nowhere near FAC. UndercoverClassicist 21:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)