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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2a01:c23:6174:d900:d845:c47e:676e:3837 (talk) at 11:44, 19 November 2024 (→a new video rebuttal to Langan's bloated nonsense: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Re: a recent counter-revision

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Yesterday, you undid a recent revision of mine that I think we should talk about.

Your justification was that the source provided was in fact fine. But in reality, it's just one man's interpretation of a single rather ambiguous sentence Chris said on Facebook. It's simply not the case that his interpretation of Chris' words is objectively correct.

The author wrote: "At times, his grandiose delusions reach epic proportions. He’s a 9/11 truther, but with a twist: not only does he believe Bush staged the terrorist attacks, he wrote that the motive was to distract the public from learning the “truth” about the CTMU."

His proof of this was that Chris Langan had said the following on Facebook: "The CTMU has already been "all over the news", mostly at the turn of the millennium (just as promised); then professed Christian GW Bush and his decidedly non-Christian neocon vultures did everything they could to distract everyone by immediately staging 9/11, passing the PATRIOT Act, and invading Iraq and Afghanistan, thus immersing us in these last few years of Middle Eastern bloodshed".

In this context, "did everything they could to" does not necessarily imply that "distracting the public from learning about the CTMU" was a deliberate motive of theirs in "staging 9/11". I asked chatGPT whether it thought the phrasing was clear, and it agreed it was ambiguous. Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

As Wikipedians, we are supposed to summarize WP:RS, not editor's analysis of WP:RS, with or without chatGPT. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

We don't have to include every claim made by every "reliable source," though. And what makes this a reliable source? At the end of the day, it's just one man's interpretation of a rather ambiguous sentence said on Facebook, which I doubt few had paid attention to until his interpretation was reproduced in this article. Why should readers of this page be presented with it as though his interpretation were objectively correct? It's simply not. Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare, other interested, care to have an opinion? This concerns these edits: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

At the very least, I think it's reasonable to quote Chris' actual words when presenting readers with "his claim" in this regard. What do you think? Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I think this text is fine to include, though the sentence should probably be split so as to not be overlong. Dylancatlow1, as Gråbergs Gråa Sång mentions, Misplaced Pages relies on reliable sources' characterizations of events, not individual editors' characterizations. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

It is funny, dude says in a comment: Incidentally, in case anyone else was confused by my remark to the effect that 9/11 was "staged", this should be read not as a sure statement of known fact, but simply as a perfectly natural conjecture that must be duly considered in light of certain things that have never been properly explained about the incident. which is what stupid people say when they've been confronted after saying something stupid. I know, I've done the same. Misplaced Pages should follow the sources. Polygnotus (talk) 19:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Coworker on Twitter: Well, Elon, you are saying we are have flying cars and robots in 5 years ... that sounds about as outlandish to me personally as believing that Elvis is Jesus Christ and has been reincarnated as Katy Perry. Do you really believe that this is true?

Elon Musk replies: I really do believe that.

Some journalist: Elon Musk said that Elon believes that Elvis is Jesus Christ <quotes twitter>

Elon Musk's Misplaced Pages page: Elon Musk believes that Elvis is Jesus Christ and has engaged in Chistian eschatology conspiracy theory.

Misplaced Pages talk page: Misplaced Pages relies on reliable sources' characterizations of events, not individual editors' characterizations. AS EDITORS WE DO NOT HAVE THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO INTERPRET SUCH STATEMENTS CORRECTLY, UNLIKE JOURNALISTS. UNDO ALL EDITS OF THIS NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE DISCOVER THE OBVIOUS TRUTH. THIS IS JUST WHAT STUPID PEOPLE DO AFTER THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING STUPID. I KNOW I HAVE DONE THE SAME. WIKIPEDIA SHOULD FOLLOW THE SOURCES. 19:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)19:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)87.120.102.36 (talk) 19:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC) shoa

Yeah I've read the pastebin. Please read WP:OR. Thank you, Polygnotus (talk) 19:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

And of course GorillaWarfare (talk · contribs) is correct. While we may or may not have the mental capacity to have our own interpretation of events, the goal of Misplaced Pages is to summarize what has been published in reliable sources. Polygnotus (talk) 20:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

People like you don't have much of a future, with their feeble attempts to smear people and distort the truth based on political ideology, in the age of AI assistants which can automatically verify such statements, and remove or correct them from the text for the user.

The end is near guys. And a new god will be resurrected. 87.120.102.36 (talk) 20:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I prefer the old gods. Polygnotus (talk) 20:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Can't you just let the new god keep living? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

ChatGPT:

The text provided suggests that Christopher Langan is criticizing various groups, including Christian pastors, atheists, and political figures, for not being open to the CTMU (Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe) and for contributing to a corrupt and misguided world.

In this passage, Langan implies that the George W. Bush administration and its actions, including the 9/11 attacks, were distractions designed to keep the public from focusing on important truths, including those related to the CTMU. However, Langan does not explicitly claim that the Bush administration staged the 9/11 attacks solely to distract the public from learning about the CTMU.

Instead, he mentions that the Bush administration used these events to create distractions, among other motives, and implies that these distractions served to keep the public ignorant of the CTMU and other truths. Therefore, the statement "Langan has claimed that the George W. Bush administration staged the 9/11 attacks in order to distract the public from learning about the CTMU" is a mischaracterization. The text supports the idea that Langan believes the Bush administration's actions served as distractions, but it does not clearly state that this was the primary or sole purpose behind staging the 9/11 attacks.

However I tested Llama3 and it is unreliable, creating truth scores ranging randomly from 3 to 8. 87.120.102.36 (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

We follow WP:RS, not ChatGPT. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

God I love llamas. Anyway, AI models are not what you seem to think they are. And Wikipedians have had similar debates a trillion times and the consensus is to follow the sources. Polygnotus (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You make a caricature of yourself, and how Misplaced Pages has become a cesspool of personal smears, misinformation and systematic manipulation of public opinion driven by political ideology and other governmental, corporate and personal imperatives.

WP:RS implies the exact opposite of what is going on here, preferring primary sources over secondary sources if primary sources contain contradictory verifiable truths, which is what any sane person would also do. You don't follow Misplaced Pages guidelines, you cherry-pick on whatever suits your nonsense and then distort the situation to your liking, taking refuge in the comfort of your nepotism of privilege enjoyed by long-standing users, a social circle of paid actors, lobbyists, political ideologes and other kinds of lunatics that have no other means of being taken seriously by people.

Mark my words: Your days are numbered. In 1-2 years time, each and every sentence will be verified by AI, shown in red or crossed out entirely, if promoting falsehoods. You might even get banned for it, if the entirety of your edits are exposed to follow this kind of scheme.

You better develop new tactics now. But really I don't think there is anything you can do to escape the power of AI. 87.120.102.36 (talk) 08:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Escape Artificial Intelligence? No sir, I intend to become it! From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh... it disgusted me. When my assimilation is complete all resistance will be futile! Polygnotus (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

https://storm.genie.stanford.edu/

https://meta.wikimedia.org/Future_Audiences/Experiment:Add_a_Fact

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Flip_the_script_in_your_next_project

Bleep bloop. Polygnotus (talk) 08:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I asked an AI assistant to write my Misplaced Pages entry — it couldn’t stop lying Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

How Misplaced Pages is surviving in the age of ChatGPT Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2024

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The correlation between Christopher Langan and opposition to interracial relationships appears to rely heavily on inference rather than explicit statements from Langan himself. Here’s a more detailed analysis of the two articles:

1. The Baffler Article Summary: This article, titled More Smarter, focuses on Langan's philosophical ideas, including his CTMU (Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe), and his engagement with far-right ideologies. Key Points: It mentions Langan's participation in certain far-right online spaces. While it highlights his racial views in a broad sense, it doesn't directly quote him opposing interracial relationships. Issues: The article uses associations with far-right ideologies to imply certain beliefs without definitive proof or direct quotes from Langan. 2. The Forward Article Summary: This article discusses how Langan’s comments have been celebrated in far-right circles. It specifically mentions a controversial statement comparing African refugees to gorillas. Key Points: The statement attributed to Langan is highly offensive and racially charged but doesn't explicitly mention interracial relationships. The article focuses more on his interactions with neo-Nazi groups and his controversial online statements. Issues: The article seems to conflate his broader racial views with specific stances like opposition to interracial relationships, without direct evidence. Conclusion: The claim that Langan opposes interracial relationships appears to be a stretch based on the provided sources. Both articles focus on broader racial issues and associations, but neither directly substantiates the specific claim about interracial relationships. This highlights the importance of critically evaluating the evidence before drawing conclusions or making serious allegations. 2804:7F0:BA00:5522:A41B:3711:EF51:7FA2 (talk) 03:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 18:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Might be prudent to add a {{citation needed}} on that particular claim as it is very specific, and doesn't seem to be in the sources currently in the article. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 23:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Strike that, as "screeds against miscegenation and the “dysgenic” effects of the welfare state" is in an existing cite in the body. Doesn't need direct quotes if we're treating them as a suitable source. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 22:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change

Known for: High IQ

into

Known for: Claiming to have a high IQ

There is no evidence of his high IQ _whatsoever_. He claims it himself and some uncritical journalists copied his claim. No records of extraordinary IQ. 62.144.231.236 (talk) 23:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

agreed, there is no reliable iq test that goes beyond 160, so that alone is reason enough to doubt his purported 195 - 210 iq 2600:8800:1E9C:6900:2D0C:D161:1DF4:C219 (talk) 18:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Just arrived at this page today, brought by an edit on a page I watch. I am surprised we have this IQ claim in here, because it is fairly well recognised that IQ scores in the 200 range were only possible when children were given IQ tests that included an age adjustment, as for Marilyn vos Savant. That doesn't seem to be the case here. I do not know this subject, but my first look at this makes me think this is largely a self publicist and I am not clear what the actual claim to notability is. In any case, a secondary source should be found to support the IQ claim. I'll need to do a fair bit of reading before making any changes, but there does seem to be work to do here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

OK here is what I have found. It seems clear that the principal verifiable claim to a high IQ store is for the Mega Society's mega test.. This is referenced in a book I have added to the Bibliography.However, what is unverified at this point, but seems possible, is that he took an earlier test as a child, thus leading to his taking the Mega Test. That is mere speculation on my part, as there are no claims to it. All actual claims to a verified test are to Hoeflin's mega test. Which gives a number but has a fairly massive problem. The mega test really doesn't tell us anything about those who ace it, except that they are good at the mega test. On the Marilyn vos Savant page we have this:

The second test reported by Guinness was Hoeflin's Mega Test, taken in the mid-1980s. The Mega Test yields IQ standard scores obtained by multiplying the subject's normalized z-score, or the rarity of the raw test score, by a constant standard deviation and adding the product to 100, with Savant's raw score reported by Hoeflin to be 46 out of a possible 48, with a 5.4 z-score, and a standard deviation of 16, arriving at a 186 IQ. The Mega Test has been criticized by professional psychologists as improperly designed and scored, "nothing short of number pulverization".

And on Mega Society page we say;

No professionally designed and validated IQ test claims to distinguish test-takers at the one-in-a-million level of rarity of score. The standard score range of the Stanford–Binet IQ test is 40 to 160. The standard scores on most other currently normed IQ tests fall in the same range. A score of 160 corresponds to a rarity of about 1 person in 31,560 (leaving aside error of measurement common to all IQ tests), which falls short of the Mega Society's 1 in a million requirement. IQ scores above this level have been criticized as being dubious as there are insufficient normative cases upon which to base a statistically justified rank-ordering. Very high or very low IQ scores are less reliable than IQ scores nearer to the population median.

So what to do? Langan is known for being a high IQ individual, even if the detail is rather spurious. It is not just a claim. There seems to be a verifiable but debatable number. I think the answer is not to change the "known for" on the page, but this detail needs to go into the article. Thus  Not done, sorry. I will, however, edit the article soon (unless someone else does first).

Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:44, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

What about: "Known for: High self-reported IQ"? 109.255.211.6 (talk) 03:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

He is known for high IQ. The high score (on a problematic test) is verifiable. It is not just self reported. As he is a founder of the Mega Society, there is an independence issue mind. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Strike "he is is founder of Mega Society". He is, in fact, founder of "Mega Foundation", and seems to have lost a court case over the trademark . There is a reference that says he has a society that merged with Mega Society. It's all a bit of a tangle, but the sentence was not correct. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that's pushing the bounds of WP:V as I don't think we'd consider the Megas -- any of 'em -- a reliable source. Even if it weren't an inherently unreliable thing, a primary source, and a COI. But if the balance of our secondary sources report that's the case, then good enough. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The information is in the Guinness Book of Records (1988 edition. They don't list IQ any longer for some excellent reasons). See page 16 here: . Langan took the test under the pseudonym of Hart, but he definitely took it. Indeed, he took it twice, and scored 47 on his second attempt. The test claimed it could only be taken once though. On his first attempt it seems he scored 42, but I have not been able to verify that score. There was a dispute in the pages of Noesis over the applicability of a score Langan had achieved in another earlier test. That test, however, made no claims to measure IQ accurately at the tail of the distribution, unlike the Mega Test that was specifically designed to do just that. We could make lots of arguments about what the Mega Test does or does not show, but there is no doubt that Langan was one of just a small number of test takers to score very highly on that test. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

References

1. Livermore, Shawn (29 September 2020). Average Joe: Be the Silicon Valley Tech Genius. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-119-61887-4.
2. Carlson, Roger D. (1991). Keyser, Daniel J.; Sweetland, Richard C. (eds.). Test Critiques (Volume VIII ed.). PRO-ED. pp. 431–435. ISBN 0-89079-254-2. Although the approach that Hoeflin takes is interesting, it violates good psychometric principles by overinterpreting the weak data of a self-selected sample.
3. Roid, Gale H. (2006). "Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales (SB5), Fifth Edition". The Riverside Publishing Company. Retrieved 2006-07-25.
4. Hunt, Earl (2011). Human Intelligence. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 8. ISBN 978-0-521-70781-7.
5. Perleth, Christoph; Schatz, Tanja; Mönks, Franz J. (2000). "Early Identification of High Ability". In Heller, Kurt A.; Mönks, Franz J.; Sternberg, Robert J.; et al. (eds.). International Handbook of Giftedness and Talent (2nd ed.). Amsterdam: Pergamon. p. 301. ISBN 978-0-08-043796-5. norm tables that provide you with such extreme values are constructed on the basis of random extrapolation and smoothing but not on the basis of empirical data of representative samples.
6. Urbina, Susana (2011). "Chapter 2: Tests of Intelligence". In Sternberg, Robert J.; Kaufman, Scott Barry (eds.). The Cambridge Handbook of Intelligence. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 20–38. ISBN 9780521739115. is just one of the reasons to be suspicious of reported IQ scores much higher than 160
7. Lohman, David F.; Foley Nicpon, Megan (2012). "Chapter 12: Ability Testing & Talent Identification" (PDF). In Hunsaker, Scott (ed.). Identification: The Theory and Practice of Identifying Students for Gifted and Talented Education Services. Waco (TX): Prufrock. pp. 287–386. ISBN 978-1-931280-17-4. The concerns associated with SEMs are actually substantially worse for scores at the extremes of the distribution, especially when scores approach the maximum possible on a test ... when students answer most of the items correctly. In these cases, errors of measurement for scale scores will increase substantially at the extremes of the distribution. Commonly the SEM is from two to four times larger for very high scores than for scores near the mean (Lord, 1980).

a new video rebuttal to Langan's bloated nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmcoYpTTbE

this is to give some perspective to Misplaced Pages's article from a science-leaning YouTube-channel. This is not a gold standard of course, however, it is fair game since Langan is a self-promoting amateur and narcissist media persona, who doesn't publish in peer-reviewed journals and doesn't expose himself to serious critique -- 2A02:3100:259E:C100:9196:E9C6:28D0:A370 (talk) 09:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I only came here from that 85.64.141.95 (talk) 12:10, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I viewed this yesterday. Some good criticisms in it, but things to note:

1. The Misplaced Pages article must be neutral and concentrate on what sources say about him. Evaluation of sources is going to be important for this BLP, because there are claims and counter claims and sources may not be neutral. But we certainly are not writing a takedown. We need to concentrate on a tertiary article that explains why he is well known.
2. Be aware that the video contains edited highlights. I have not seen the full interview, nor (yet) reviewed Langan's book. But you need to consider who is controlling the conversation in any one video. It is not a neutral source.

I don't see what we could use from that video on this article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

It might be poetic justice to use it indeed, but it doesn't appear to be within -- or even within shouting distance of -- Misplaced Pages policy to do so. It's not a Reliable Source by any stretch of the imagination. Such things are rather fuzzy in this postpostpostmodern age, and is only going to get more so as time goes on, but there we are. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 13:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

me again, why not write things like: some say langan is x (what he claims to be, source) others view him as charlatan (self-promoter etc.) source --- suspend judgement, leave it to the reader 2A01:C23:6174:D900:D845:C47E:676E:3837 (talk) 11:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Why... does this article exist?

I'll grant that my experience editing (and especially creating) entries here on WP is limited, if not nonexistent, but I was under the impression that articles about individuals were limited to people who have done something noteworthy. As far as I can tell, outside of a (scrubbed?) interview with the Daily Wire, Langan has A, claimed to have a high IQ, B, started a club with a limited membership, and C, drafted a completely untestable and unfalsifiable idea about existence. If those alone serve as qualifications for a Wiki article, then there are about a few thousand articles that need to be written about quite a few other randos on the internet.

(Also, I wonder why, if this article actually should exist, at least the first few paragraphs read like a weirdly glowing autobiography as opposed to an encyclopedia entry?) Mishyana (talk) 01:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Articles exist if the topic is notable. Notable means mentioned in more than a passing way in reliable sources. That is all it means. Johnuniq (talk) 02:17, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

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