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Vanezi Astghik, the belligerents section is for state players or similar - not just anybody that wants to throw an iron in the fire. Just like the PPK, Syrian mercenaries and Armenian diaspora volunteers are not state players that would be listed as belligerents in the infobox - regardless of sources that say they were present. It is a miscategorisation. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
@Cinderella157 I am not sure where you are quoting "state players or similar" from, but according to the military conflict infobox template: particular units, formations, or groups may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding. So you were right to unlist Armenian diaspora volunteers because that refers to unrelated individual cases, not any kind of group. But the Syrian National Army is clearly its own group, and very relevant because its units were in the frontlines. Vanezi (talk) 18:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
The infobox listed Syrian mercenaries, with sources to support this description even though the link was piped to Syrian National Army. The sourcing does not appear to support this piping. Furthermore, it as alleged that they were recruited by Turkey. What I was quoting was from my edit summary. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:25, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
There are reliable sources confirming Syrian mercenaries from the Syrian National Army.
Although Azerbaijan and its ally Turkey deny the use of mercenaries, researchers have amassed a considerable amount of photographic evidence, drawn from videos and photographs the fighters have posted online, which tells a different story.
According to sources within the Syrian National Army (SNA), the umbrella term for a group of opposition militias backed by Turkey, around 1,500 Syrians have so far been deployed to the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region in the southern Caucasus ... Shortly after conflict erupted between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Turkey sought to mobilize the SNA, sometimes called Turkey’s proxy army ... The first fighters were transferred in late September to southern Turkey and then flown from Gaziantep to Ankara, before being transferred to Azerbaijan on Sept. 25.
The only error was the mercenaries were bullet pointed under Azerbaijan. From what these sources confirm, the mercenaries should instead be under Turkey, and the "alleged" comment should be removed. Vanezi (talk) 16:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Turkey can only be listed as "alleged by Armenia" per community consensus at this RFC: , and another one later on, which also decided on Syrian mercenaries: If you want to change that, start a new RFC to form a new community consensus. Grandmaster13:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
These are mercenaries. Whether they had previous service with the Syrian National Army does not change their status as mercenaries. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:42, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Leaving this here for the record. "We must be very strong so that Israel can't do these ridiculous things to Palestine. Just like we entered Karabakh, just like we entered Libya, we might do similar to them," Erdogan told a meeting of his ruling AK Party in his hometown of Rize. --Երևանցի07:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It is an ambiguous political statement. He did not say that Turkish army was in Karabakh. Entering could mean many things. The article also says "he did not spell out what sort of intervention he was suggesting", and that "Turkey has denied any direct role in Azerbaijan's military operations in Nagorno-Karabakh, but said last year it was using "all means", including military training and modernisation, to support its close ally". Grandmaster08:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It is reasonable to conclude that Erdogan was referring to a military intervention (entry, incursion, invasion). It is hard to assume that Turkey intends to invade Israel's cultural or spiritual life. Of course, we are talking about a military intervention. Ավետիսյան91 (talk) 14:16, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
That's one interpretation. There can be others. You can see that the Reuters journalists are not certain "what sort of intervention he was suggesting". Grandmaster14:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
There could be other interpretations if the context of Erdogan's speech were different. However, if we are talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the possible entry of Turkey into Israel to help the Palestinians, there can be no other interpretation. Turkey will certainly not intervene in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with an educational, scientific, or cultural entry. It is obvious that he means a military entry (invasion). Adding some more links: , . Ավետիսյան91 (talk) 16:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It is still a matter of interpretation. He did not explicitly say that Turkey sent troops to Karabakh, and it is still generally accepted that Turkey provided support in 2020. Pretty much all sources reporting on this speech mention that. NYT that you quoted writes:
“Just like we entered Karabakh, just like we entered Libya, we can do similar to them,” he said, referring to Turkish support for Azerbaijan in its conflict with Armenia last year and his country’s military intervention in Libya.
Politico: Turkey supported Azerbaijan during the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War against Armenia in 2020, though has long denied any direct involvement, and has deployed troops in Libya in support of the United Nations-recognized government since 2020.
There were tons of foreign fighters from countries like Lebanon, Syria and Greece etc. fighting for the Armenians, noted by Russian newspapers and even by reports coming from the countries where the foreign mercenaries fighting for Armenia came from. We need to add foreign mercenaries for the Armenian belligerent section of the page. Reread the page where it talks about third party allegations. HeydarISm (talk) 07:21, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
The belligerents section is for state players and sometimes for politically/ideologically organised groups - ie who are the warring sides. Mercenaries don't count wrt the infobox though if sufficiently significant, they might be mentioned in the body of the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:24, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Case for removal Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox is to summarise key facts from the article and is a supplement to the lead. We are advised that less is better and we shouldn't try to write the article in the infobox. Per the template doc, in an international conflict, the beligerent section is for the nations that participated in the conflict. An exception might include smaller groups if it improves reader understanding. The spirit and intent of the doc is that such inclusion would be exceptional.
Discussions here and elsewhere (eg Russian invasion of Ukraine) affirms that we don't add nationals from various countries that have volunteered their services under this heading. The same reasonably applies to guns for hire. The mercenaries were reportedly provided by Turkey and, if anything, they are part of Turkey's alleged involvement. Consequently, they do not represent a separate belligerent to be represented as such in the infobox. Their inclusion can be seen as detail, which is not what the infobox is for.
The body of the article makes quite limited mention of the mercenaries (that they accounted for 541 deaths out of 7,630 Azerbaijani soldiers). They are mentioned in two sentences in the section on military tactics attributed to a single source. Two other passing mentions relate to them being supplied by Turkey. The body of the article does not appear to establish that they are not of themself key or significant to the conflict. They are not mentioned in the lead. On the otherhand, the article very clearly establishes the significance of Turkey to the conflict.
There is also an issue with (mis)representing the mercenaries under the flag of the Syrian opposition rather than being guns for hire with an allegiance bought and paid for.
Yeah, I think it would make sense. For the avoidance of doubt, they definitely should be mentioned elsewhere in the infobox, for example in Units involved section. Alaexis¿question?15:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree that belligerents should only include state actors. Non-state actors could be mentioned, if needed, in other sections, for example, in Units involved, as suggested above. Grandmaster15:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Comment. If the Syrian mercenaries are to be removed from belligerents, then it should be on the condition of Turkey being listed as a full belligerent. There are a great amount of sources confirming Turkish involvement, including providing the mercenaries. Erdogan has openly admitted Turkey was involved and compared NK to other wars that Turkey’s involvement is not questioned. And the Syrian mercenaries should remain under units, as has already been suggested. Vanezi (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Turkey was definitely involved, but I think that we need stronger sources to include it as a belligerent. A few years have passed already so we should try to use sources that are more reliable than newspaper article. Note that the Nordic Monitor doesn't state it as fact that Turkey participated in the war but rather quotes Erdogan who might have his own reasons to play up the role of Turkey. Alaexis¿question?20:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
To list Turkey as a belligerent, it should be demonstrated that it is generally accepted to consider it a belligerent. So far the majority of reliable sources say that Turkey provided support to Azerbaijan. A few sources making the claim is not enough, and Erdogan is a primary source. We cannot make interpretations of primary sources. Most reliable sources reporting his speech mentioned that Turkey provided support. That includes the Reuters report that you quoted. Grandmaster09:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CMD (talk) 16:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
