Talk:On the Jews and Their Lies

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Misrepresented claims pertaining "seven remedial actions" and other points of contention mentioned

The following block quote comes from p. 39 of the English translation of Luther's text:

"Now tell me, do they not have great cause to hate us cursed Goyim, to curse us and seek our final, thorough and eternal ruin?
Now what are we going to do with these rejected, condemned, Jewish people?
We should not suffer it after they are among us and we know about such lying, blaspheming and cursing among them, lest we become partakers of their lies, cursing, and blaspheming. We cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of God's wrath (as the prophets say), nor convert the Jews. We must practice great mercy with prayer and godliness that we might rescue a few from the flame and violent heat. We are not permitted to take revenge. Revenge is around their neck a thousand times greater than we could wish them. (emphases added)"

While Luther's general criticism of Judaism and those who practice it is not at all hidden, among the questions to ask is: How, from reading this, can one possibly exegete any semblance of Luther arguing that Jews should "be shown no mercy and kindness"? When people selected sources about this text, did anyone bother to actually read it and examine whether or not such sources possess integrity in relation to the actual claims of the text itself?

The next following block quote from the same text comes from pp. 39-40:

"I will give you my true counsel: First, that we avoid their synagogues and schools and warn people against them. And such should be done to the glory of God and Christendom, that God may see that we are Christians and have not knowingly tolerated such lying, cursing and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians. For what we so far have tolerated in ignorance (I myself did not know it), God will forgive us. Now that we know it, however, and in spite should before our very noses tolerate such a building for the Jew in which they blaspheme, curse, spit upon and disgrace Christ and us, that would be simply too much, as if we did it ourselves and much worse, as you well know. Moses writes in Deuteronomy that where a city practiced idolatry, it should be entirely destroyed with fire and leave nothing. If he were living today he would be the first to put fire to the Jew schools and houses. (emphases added)"

The article claims "remedial action" number one is, "to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them;" whereas all Luther recommends is, "avoid their synagogues and warn people against them." Luther clarifies his recommendation advising that it "should be done to the glory of God and Christendom, that God may see that we are Christians." Martin Luther never makes any direct recommendation to burn down synagogues. As for Luther's mentioning of Moses' scripture, would it not be more reasonable to interpret that as Luther's notoriously bold style of polemic, meant primarily to strengthen his general argument against the corruption he claims to witness in the Jewish community, stemming from his criticisms against corruption of religious institutions in general?

The rest of the seven points are basically correct; however, Martin gives detailed explanations for all seven. Therefore, it would definitely not hurt to at least provide brief summaries of what Luther argued for each prescribed remedy, in addition to correcting any misquotations or misleading uses of quotations interspersed among the article. --199.8.13.180 (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

This is a continuation of a discussion above. I pointed to

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or a cinder of them_

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed....

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb_

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews_

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping....

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow_

See also Wikiquote , this sourcebook, and the LA Museum of the Holocaust. and since it is really only the first that is challenged, this OUP book. I don't understand the difference, although the sources I can find for the "avoid" version are generally ones we wouldn't touch. Doug Weller talk 16:48, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

"The Jews"

Should this article use the phrase "the Jews", or just "Jews"? Editor2020 (talk) 02:37, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

It really depends on the context. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:07, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

There actually weren't that many instances of "the Jews" in the article that weren't in titles or direct quotes. I changed most of them to "Jews" except for one which I changed to "Jewish people". Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:11, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

lawyer

Paragraph 7 begins with, "Luther, a lawyer. . . ." Luther had plans to become a lawyer, but his plans changed when he entered a monastery. 199.101.219.250 (talk) 00:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Does Luther advocate murder?

In the article it says the following: "He also advocates murder of all Jews, writing "e are at fault in not slaying them"."

In the infobox, there's a link to the original German book on Google Books. On page 251 I found the text on which the aforementioned statement is based.

I took a screenshot and asked ChatGPT to translate it. This is what I got:

"It is no different; for, as mentioned above from Moses, God has struck them with madness, blindness, and a frenzied heart. And it is also our fault that we do not avenge the great and innocent blood that they poured out on our Lord and on the Christians for over three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and that they still pour out on children (which, as it appears, can still be seen in their eyes and skin). We do not seek justice for this, we do not kill them. Instead, we let them sit freely among us, lie, curse, blaspheme, and desecrate us and all that is ours—our schools, houses, bodies, and property, which we protect and defend. We help them make themselves idle and safe, allowing them to suck our money and wealth from us, mock and spit on us, and grow mighty off our sins until they finally overcome us. And for such a great sin, we would all deserve death, for we take everything kindly, just as they daily beg and hope."

Does this really mean Luther advocates murder? To me it looks like Luther uses big words to express that he is annoyed by the fact Jews live peacefully among the Germans while, according to him, they deserve a harsh treatment for things they supposedly did.

In addition, on page 253 (just two pages later), he says the following:

"We must practice a sharp mercy with prayer and fear of God, if we might yet save some from the flames and fire. We must not take revenge; they have vengeance upon them, a thousand times worse than we could wish upon them."

Luther says they shouldn't take revenge on the Jews. He proceeds to list his 7 actions. Although the actions are harsh, murder is not one of them.

I'd like some more views on this. Preferably from a native German speaker.

As a sidenote, on the article Martin Luther and antisemitism it says: "He also seems to advocate their murder". To me, this sounds like a better observation. On the German Misplaced Pages I couldn't find anything related to this text. AdrianEvex (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

While viewing the history of this article I noticed 'seems to advocate' was changed to 'advocate' on June 8th 2023 and 'all Jews' was added on March 4th 2024. AdrianEvex (talk) 22:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I see my second comment is ambiguous. Where I said 'this article' I'm referring to the article On the Jews and Their Lies. AdrianEvex (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

We need sources, eg which says "seems".

P219 "advocates their murder".

"systematic murder".

It's pretty clear there are scholarly disagreements about this and we need to present both. @Hob Gadling: Doug Weller talk 09:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

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