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Section sizes Section size for Mao Zedong (53 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 11,497 11,497 English romanisation of name 1,129 1,129 Early life 52 11,413 Youth and the Xinhai Revolution: 1893–1911 6,834 6,834 Fourth Normal School of Changsha: 1912–1919 4,527 4,527 Early revolutionary activity 35 19,659 Beijing, anarchism, and Marxism: 1917–1919 3,179 3,179 New Culture and political protests: 1919–1920 5,339 5,339 Founding the Chinese Communist Party: 1921–1922 5,688 5,688 Collaboration with the Kuomintang: 1922–1927 5,418 5,418 Civil War 73 19,364 Nanchang and Autumn Harvest Uprisings: 1927 2,964 2,964 Base in Jinggangshan: 1927–1928 6,247 6,247 Jiangxi Soviet Republic of China: 1929–1934 5,688 5,688 Long March: 1934–1935 4,392 4,392 World War II 7,754 7,754 Leadership of China 96 42,558 Establishment of the People's Republic of China 4,283 4,283 Korean War 1,710 1,710 Social reform 6,972 6,972 Three-anti and Five-anti Campaigns 2,521 2,521 Five-year plans 4,816 4,816 Military projects 2,392 2,392 Great Leap Forward 6,882 6,882 Split from Soviet Union 3,081 3,081 Third Front 3,881 3,881 Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 5,924 5,924 State visits 1,484 1,484 Death and aftermath 8,947 8,947 Legacy 9,413 41,000 In China 7,624 7,624 Outside China 9,650 9,650 Third World 3,581 3,581 Military strategy 1,795 1,795 Literature 1,630 1,630 Public image 7,307 7,307 Genealogy 17 6,209 Ancestors 792 792 Wives 666 666 Siblings 1,064 1,064 Children 3,670 3,670 Personal life 3,379 3,379 Writings and calligraphy 5,951 7,378 Literary works 1,427 1,427 Portrayal in media 2,922 2,922 See also 137 137 Notes 26 26 References 30 30 Bibliography 3,461 3,461 Further reading 924 924 External links 116 9,756 General 1,454 1,454 Commentary 8,186 8,186 Total 199,027 199,027

Recent change

@Amigao: Why restored the content that does not exist in main body in the article("deaths of 15 to 55 million people", "lasted for 10 years") or possible MOS:EDITORIAL ("Conversely")? Y-S.Ko (talk) 00:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I am in agreement with @Y-S.Ko. Much of the trimming was fluff. I had a different reason for agreeing about trimming deaths for Great Leap Forward, namely that we already have a good deal of millions of death material in the lead. JArthur1984 (talk) 00:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree with this as stated. Remsense ‥ 论 00:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

A few bullet points, some not directly related to the main reason for reversion:

• Conversely is a word to watch, but the way it is being used here is clearly fine, as the two perspectives are clearly not compatible in most cases. In fact, your phrasing itself plausibly implies that the two views are
• Your linking of Hunan runs afoul of WP:SOB.
• While 55 million may not be attested in the article here, it is clearly cited at the article linked. The most productive thing to do here is to copy the references over, not force others to go and do it on your behalf. I don't think there's an NPOV justification in omitting figures as such.
• Your removal of any mention of escalation or motion is not encyclopedic in my view, akin to above, it actually has the unintended effect of mischaracterizing events by describing them as little as possible. There is a point where slimming summaries goes too far, and in this case you've crossed it imo.

Remsense ‥ 论 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• If the phrase give the impression "two perspectives are clearly not compatible", which is not well-sourced fact, then the phrase must be fixed.
• I removed the content that does not exist in main body, but link to Great Chinese Famine is remained, which ("great ... famine") give impression of numerous deaths already, without worrying on the contents does not exist in main body. and general number of deaths is already treated in last paragraph of lead section (whose contents exists in main body of the article).

Y-S.Ko (talk) 01:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm saying that whatever the relationship is, your particular juxtaposition also creates a synthetic connotation to my eye. I'm sure you've seen it, but the examples given at WP:SYNTH are pretty analogous to the contention here, though without an explicit linking and, it's analogous. Remsense ‥ 论 02:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The examples in WP:SYNTH are problematic, because "but" and "only" gave some sort of impression, which is not neutral. "Conversely" creates much stronger non-neutral impression than my phrasing. My phrasing does not include these sort of words. I think my phrasing has less problematic connotation, and more neutral than using such problematic words. Of course, the best option is giving no impression about the two perspectives' compatibility. Y-S.Ko (talk) 03:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I am saying the effect is subtler: I would not find an argument compelling that mere juxtaposition cannot ever take up its own connotations in this context. But it is a minor tone issue. Remsense ‥ 论 04:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Mao Zedong's heart attacks and reported time of death

At the time of writing this talk topic the Death and aftermath section of the article page reads:

"He suffered two major heart attacks, one in March and another in July, then a third on 5 September, rendering him an invalid. He died nearly four days later, on 9 September 1976, at the age of 82. The Communist Party delayed the announcement of his death until 16:00, when a national radio broadcast announced the news and appealed for party unity."

For starters, the referenced source that was apparently retrieved on 25 October 2014 is a broken link, and the currently accessible live version of the same article source now has "https://archive.nytimes.com/" appended to the beginning of the url as follows: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0909.html

Now the main contention: The referenced source only mentions that Mao Zedong died at 12:10 a.m. on September 9, but it does not mention how many heart attacks Mao Zedong had, nor the time that Mao had the heart attacks, therefore the following quoted claim does not currently have a source attributed to it:

"He suffered two major heart attacks, one in March and another in July, then a third on 5 September, rendering him an invalid. He died nearly four days later..."

The same sourcing issue is apparent in regard to information described in the article about the Death and state funeral of Mao Zedong, which uses the same source attribution and currently reads:

"At around 17:00 on 5 September 1976, Mao had a heart attack, far more severe than his previous two earlier that year which affected a much larger area of his heart, leaving him bedridden. On the afternoon of 7 September, Mao's condition completely deteriorated. Mao's organs failed quickly and he fell into a coma shortly before noon and was put on a ventilator and life support machines.
On 8 September, when it was clear the comatose Mao was beyond recovery, Chinese government officials decided to disconnect his life support machines at midnight..."

Is anyone able to find a source that verifies these claims that time Mao Zedong's heart attacks to March, July, and 17:00 on 5 September?

I have identified a source by James Palmer (Chapter 6: "You die, I live" of Heaven Cracks, Earth Shakes: The Tangshan Earthquake and the Death of Mao's China, published 3 January 2012) that alternatively claims that Mao Zedong suffered a heart attack at about 5:00 p.m. on September 2. This source is also referenced at least one time by other authors including in Chapter 7: "Selective Integration" of Peter Martin's China's Civilian Army: The Making of Wolf Warrior Diplomacy, published 2021.

Is anyone able to find any reliable sources earlier than 3 January 2012 that affirmatively verify that Mao Zedong had heart attacks in March, July, 2 September and/or 5 September, 1976?

As Mao Zedong's heart attacks thus far have an identifiable source attribution referenced to James Palmer's Heaven Cracks, Earth Shakes (2012), I can propose a revision to the article on the Death and state funeral of Mao Zedong as follows, however someone with greater editing privileges can investigate making changes to the main Mao Zedong page.

e.g. "At around 17:00 on 2 September 1976, Mao had a heart attack..."

and so on. Re.educated (talk) 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Luckily, Spence (1998) has us covered, pp. 176–177:

Remsense ‥ 论 22:13, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

As discussed in Talk:Mao Zedong#Mao Zedong's heart attacks and reported time of death, it is advised that in the section on Mao_Zedong#Death_and_aftermath the following sentence:

"He suffered two major heart attacks, one in March and another in July, then a third on 5 September, rendering him an invalid."

Should be changed into something like:

"He suffered two major heart attacks, one in March and another in July, then a third on 2 September at about 5:00 p.m., rendering him an invalid." Re.educated (talk) 22:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done My own way, at least. That should work, right? Remsense ‥ 论 22:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Noting that according to Spence the second one was actually in late June... I think so. Thanks! 👏 Re.educated (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for giving me something quick, concrete, and important to do! Remsense ‥ 论 22:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

1. "Mao Tse-Tung Dies In Peking At 82; Leader Of Red China Revolution; Choice Of Successor Is Uncertain". The New York Times. Retrieved 25 October 2014.
2. Martin, Peter (20 May 2021). "7 Selective Integration". China's Civilian Army: The Inside Story of China's Quest for Global Power. New York: Oxford Academic. p. 127. doi:10.1093/oso/9780197513705.003.0008. ISBN 9780197513736.
3. Palmer, James (3 January 2012). "6 You die, I live". Heaven Cracks, Earth Shakes: The Tangshan Earthquake and the Death of Mao's China. New York: Basic Books. p. 196. ISBN 9780465023493.
4. Palmer, James (3 January 2012). "6 You die, I live". Heaven Cracks, Earth Shakes: The Tangshan Earthquake and the Death of Mao's China. New York: Basic Books. p. 196. ISBN 9780465023493.

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