Misplaced Pages

Help desk new question page

I often see the same editor asking multiple questions @ the help desk and they are often told not too by others, sometimes in a bitty way. I wondered why so may did this and I think the reason is the userpage decline template links to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk/New question with the draft title filled in but it seems non-obvious, for new editors, how to get from this page to the help desk without posting a new question. Should we add a something like "If you have already asked a question about this draft recently please continue that discussion at the help desk here" to the top? KylieTastic (talk) 14:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that could indeed explain this. (I always assumed it was because users didn't realise it's a threaded forum, and not a chat stream etc.) That seems a good suggestion; worth a try.

And one of my new year's resolutions will be to make an effort to be less "bitty" to those opening multiple threads, now that I know why they do it. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand what's happening here, could someone provide a diff/example of this happening? Primefac (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Some editors keep opening new questions on the help desk rather than continuing with one that's ongoing, often one after another. So I'm proposing that these may be the editor coming back to the help desk from the link on the decline on the users talk page. That goes to a page like this and I'm saying that it encourages asking a new question everytime and many would not see or understand using the breadcrumb link to the help desk at the top. KylieTastic (talk) 09:45, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Why don't we adopt the pragmatic solution of not worrying, and answering questions as they arise, but tidying up sweetly prior to answering?

Unless, of course, someone writes a gadget so we can highlight threads to merge, and we do that? 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 09:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I have ignored for years but after seeing it again a couple of times recently I engaged brain to wonder why it was happening. Updating the gadget to work out if there is an active question is a nice ideal solution but too much work for the problem. Is it not better to tell editors they can continue a discussion rather than open a new question rather than give give them an interface that encourages it then tell them they are wrong. Just adding a simple explanatory sentence and link seemed like a quick, simple easy solution..... KylieTastic (talk) 10:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see, something like this. I see two (maybe three) options here. First, we change nothing and politely merge/combine duplicate sections. Second, we make the decline link a direct link to the HD and hope that editors use the "Ask a new question" link at the top if they have a question (which, if I recall, did not work, and the whole reason we have the script in the first place). Third, we could add an additional line as proposed, saying that existing questions will be answered without a new question not needing to be filed. Primefac (talk) 13:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is the sort of thing that happens most, but I failed to find a diff for one of the cases of more than 2 or the sometimes bitty remarks not do do it. Not that I hang about the HelpDesk much. On the current page GwnftLight and Sukdev Mahapatra also had two back to back posts. KylieTastic (talk) 13:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I added a variant of that text to the top - feel free to copyedit. – SD0001 (talk) 13:45, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oops. It seems the script replaces it altogether. Will need a script update as well. – SD0001 (talk) 13:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed – SD0001 (talk) 15:33, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks SD0001 KylieTastic (talk) 15:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

J-1 visa vs J-1 visa

I declined Draft:Internship_and_Trainee_J-1_Visa_Programs as a duplicate of J-1 visa, however, on my Talk page the editor is (I think) indicating they are different topics and I should re-review the draft. To be honest, I don't entirely understand. Given my lack of understanding, would someone else mind taking a second look at both the editor's comment to me and the draft and, if appropriate, remedying any error I've made? I may be missing something. Thanks. Chetsford (talk) 15:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

It looks like this might be one of the subcategories of the J-1 visa? Primefac (talk) 20:21, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to say the same. Mind you, it's been years since I've dealt with any US visa issues, so could be some newfangled stuff I don't know about. In any case, don't see why different flavours of J-1 (or even J-class) would require separate articles? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 20:40, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The draft does get rather far into the weeds of the specifics of that visa type. The article is pretty long as it is, though, so a full merge might not make sense. Primefac (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Barron Trump

I am reviewing Draft:Barron Trump, and I have two mostly unrelated questions. The first is about reviewing a draft when the title in article space is a locked redirect. This is a question that I have asked before, but the answer has not always been entirely clear, and I would rather ask again than not ask and make a mistake. The title is a locked redirect because there was a previous AFD (the third AFD) and the consensus was to redirect and salt. Am I correct that I should compare the draft against the deleted version in the history, and consider whether there has been enough of a change so that it is reasonable to consider making a request to Requests for Unprotection? If so, my thought at this time is that it is not much of a change, and the submitter has not met the burden of overcoming the consensus of the AFD, but I will review it one more time. Are there any particular rules that I should follow when reviewing a draft where the title is a locked redirect due to an AFD? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Short answer: yes. If the draft isn't significantly different, then it's not worth accepting. Primefac (talk) 20:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I declined the draft. This is a case of notability is not inherited. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Mostly Constructive Edit with Vandalism

The second question has to do with one of the edits to the draft. The edit appears to have been mostly constructive, but it introduced sneaky vandalism to an item in the infobox. I have reverted the vandalism and warned the editor. Should I be satisfied with assuming that the other edits were constructive, or should I revert the entire edit? I would have reverted the entire edit, except that there had been a subsequent edit that appeared to be constructive. What should be done if one discovers that an edit was mostly constructive but made a destructive change? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

If there's a mix, and it's not obvious what was good and what was bad, I'll revert the whole thing. That's just my philosophy, but I'm not going to untangle a complex edit if "vandalism" is part of it. Primefac (talk) 20:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The only reason that I didn't revert the whole thing is that there had been another edit after it. It now appears that the change may have been a sloppy error rather than vandalism. The editor changed the height of the subject from 2 m to 2 cm. 2 m is 6 ft 7 in, which is what the subject's height has been reported as. The two possible explanations are both implausible, either that it was sneaky vandalism or that it was an error, so assume good faith applies. So I think that the draft is now correct. If the subject becomes individually notable in the future, his height is likely to be 201 cm or 202 cm. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:15, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

drafts are too long

Please see discussion: link. -- Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 00:58, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Fluoride Action Network

This draft seems on the edge of violating NPOV to me, especially since its author has a 16-year history of anti-water fluoridation POV-pushing, but I'd like another pair of eyes to determine if this article may be acceptable. JJP_Master (she/they) 21:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

At the very least, I'm not seeing any evidence of notability there. And for the coverage that does exist outside of the very recent court case, it's certainly not positive coverage. Which isn't reflected in the article as it is currently. And that does seem like an NPOV problem. Silverseren 21:52, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fluoride Action Network. The draft doesn't persuade me that anything has changed in twelve years except the government in Washington. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Indian state symbols

It seems we have a new instalment in the series of bogus Indian state symbols, this time with Draft:List of Indian state vegetables. Different IP from the previous ones, but probably the same user. Just flagging this here to avoid a repeat of the earlier sich. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:41, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I have cleared up the rest of the related junk edits from them. KylieTastic (talk) 12:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

question

Hi I was just curious, I have done (alot, as I know other editors have as well) of AFC https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Ozzie10aaaa/AfC_log, I was wondering when the end of year awards (or recognition) for AFC are given?, thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ozzie10aaaa, what end-of-year awards are you talking about? I can't remember any, and I just checked the archives for December 2022 and 2023 and didn't see anything (but could have missed it). -- asilvering (talk) 23:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I assumed(hoped) that similar to NPP there would be some sort of award/barnstar for 2024,since the year is practically over, for all the AFC's done over the past year(for the editors)...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:55, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

if there is a list of the top 20 AFC editors I would be happy to hand them out(below is a example)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I assume the NPP ones rely on the patrol logs. AfC does not have any central logging so there is no good data, especially for > 6 months when a lot of the declined drafts are deleted. KylieTastic (talk) 15:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Top_AfC_reviewers? qcne (talk) 15:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

If it had been running for a year I guess you could check the data from the last day of each month and add together but it's only been running since 12 November 2024. KylieTastic (talk) 17:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

this is better than nothing...Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation/Top AfC reviewers#Last 1 year...I could leave the barnstar for all 100 ?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:57, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I guess it's an approximation but not sure how it's getting its data but its a bit short. It says SafariScribe has 5418 reviews, but there log User:SafariScribe/AfC_log has 6846 entries. For myself it says 2889 reviews but my logs User:KylieTastic/AfC log show 6200. I guess it does not count deleted items and I do a lot of 0 day junk bashing. KylieTastic (talk) 18:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

well if there are no outright objections, I can do it Monday/Tuesday...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I see no harm and it's a bit of positive feedback which in the current world seems needed. So as far as I'm concerned go for it and thanks Ozzie for thinking of something positive. KylieTastic (talk) 19:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

done,Ozzie--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Just noting, Ozzie10aaaa, that your edits missed the closing |} and thus broke the pages you added it to. I believe someone else is cleaning it up, but for next time please make sure you do one or two, check things are working, and then blast through the list. Primefac (talk) 13:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

thanks for pointing it out (I had zero idea about |} ), will take your advice,,,Merry Christmas--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

for example ...

Perhaps add to reviewing instructions?

Twice in the last week I've seen two AfCs passed which had previously AfD'd versions. Both of these AfC approvals were quickly tagged for G4. One of them had just been deleted at AfD and was under deletion review when the filer created a new draft which was miraculously reviewed in two days and quickly passed. This really screwed up the active DRV, which I was forced to close procedurally even though the filer had almost no support from commenters. What instructions do we give AfC reviewers about checking deleted edits and deleted versions from two days previously? Passing submissions which are currently at DRV? I'm aware that Articles for Creation is one approved way to recreate a deleted page, however this project surely has some guidance on the matter. Seems this should be on a checklist somewhere ("Is this namespace currently at a deletion process? Quickfail if yes."), checking a new draft against deleted versions. BusterD (talk) 18:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

If the article is of the same name then the AFCH tool says if it was previously deleted and so that should lead reviewers to look at the previous reasons. Since the core purpose of AfC is to determine if it would be deleted at AfD checking the previous deletions should be a key point of any review. Personally I have always thought the previously deleted warning should be a bit larger and remind people to check. KylieTastic (talk) 18:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Some reviewers might be concerned about readily being able to view previous deleted versions. As an admin, I'd be happy to spend a few minutes helping reviewers with temporarily undeleting such material. If I didn't possess the tools, I'd go to WP:Requests for undeletion and ask to see the page temporarily before I approved the draft. I'd likely approve such a request 99% of the time. BusterD (talk) 19:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with KylieTastic about previous deletions needing be to more prominent than what they are already (well, I say I disagree but KylieTastic is usually right, thus their Tasticness, so likely I am missing something). When a reviewer clicks "Review", there is a popup that lists all the deletions of an article of the same title and the logged reason/notes (G11, AfD, etc.), which to me is very clear. I think this particular scenario is a one-off. Outside if extenuating circumstances or a mistake/miss, I cannot think of reason a reviewer would ever accept a draft that had just been deleted via an AfD discussion (much less one that had been deleted multiple times such as this one if my guess of which article this is about is correct). Also, I have never seen a need to see deleted versions. If I think it might meet G4, I just nominate it and an admin can make to decision but G4 should be very rare for drafts as one of the uses for AfC is to get an independent review of previously deleted articles. S0091 (talk) 19:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see it often but I thought AFCH just said "The page xxxxx has been deleted Y time(s). View deletion log". That was the only part I was thinking could be a tad larger font as it gets lost compared to the big Accept/Decline/Comment buttons. If you then click on "View deletion log" (I think) it then shows the details but no auto show. SO actually if that was true rather than larger, it should just show the full details. However, I'm very tired I may just be remembering it wrong and can't find an example. KylieTastic (talk) 20:49, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I think your memory is correct, Kylie. I don't think I've ever had any trouble noticing it but I'm sympathetic to the idea that it's easy to miss. @BusterD, were these AfC accepts both from the same reviewer? -- asilvering (talk) 21:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Two different reviewers, both worthy wikipedians. The latest example, the one which I spoke about above is 15.ai, reviewed by User:Pokelego999. The other one was Nicolás Atanes, but I found out later the reviewer (User:Qcne) was presented with Nicolas Atanes and in the moment didn't see the previous deletions. IMHO, both reviewers made calls I might have made myself. BusterD (talk) 21:53, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

On my end, I didn't see anything related to deletion logs. I don't know if I missed it or if it just wasn't present, but I had no indication it had previously gone through anything since I hadn't noticed any logs. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 22:34, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

S0091 is correct the text is big enough as I have just seen it again on Draft:Toula Gordillo. However, I do think the default state of the history should be expanded as it is important information that all reviewers should be aware of. KylieTastic (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Now with fresh example, I agree the default should show the log info so you don't have to click on "view deletion log". It would actually be great to know it upfront but I'm not sure that's possible because the draft/sandbox title might change before a review which introduces various complications. However, it is aggravating to conduct an assessment then find out the deletion history after clicking Review. S0091 (talk) 20:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Class assessment and the Banner Shell

Is the class assessment within the {{WikiProject Articles for creation}} template meant to be a snapshot of the class at creation, or, is it meant to "grow" with the article. I ask this, as now class allocation is set in the {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which reports a if the class in the banner shell is different from any other class assignment. If the "class=" parameter from AfC is meant to be a snapshot at creation, then the Banner Shell code should ignore it if it's not the same as the overall "class=" setting. If it's meant to change as the article improves over time, then we can just remove it from the AfC template and just use the Banner shell assignment. Ping User: Tom.Reding & User:MSGJ as the banner shell experts. The-Pope (talk) 07:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why it would be a snapshot. Lee Vilenski 07:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it could be a snapshot, if it's meant to track the 'quality' of articles coming out of the AfC process at the time of acceptance/publication.

Conversely, it could evolve over time, if it's meant to track the quality of AfC-created articles at some future time of such tracking or analysis.

FWIW, I had assumed the former, which is why I give it the rating suggested by the rating tool, even if the other projects take theirs from the shell. Perfectly happy to be proven wrong on this, obvs. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The template should probably state which one it is. Lee Vilenski 08:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Reviewers obviously need to know which way to apply this, and ideally all do it the same way. But future readers (under the 'snapshot' model, that is) would also need to know why the AfC rating is potentially different from the others. ("Hey, my article is rated A, why is AfC still marking it down as Start?!") -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I thought this was changed some time ago so that the AFCH tool only puts a single assessment in the shell like all other projects. Do you have a case to illustrate the issue? KylieTastic (talk) 09:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It was, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Archive_58#Assigning_WikiProjects_to_Articles KylieTastic (talk) 09:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that settles it - putting a single assessment in the shell is the opposite of a permanent snapshot. My thinking is similar to DoubleGrazing's, except that I assumed the latter (evolving over time in the shell), mostly because {{WikiProject Articles for creation}} is not in Category:Custom class masks of WikiProject banners, which it would have to be for snapshotting to be a thing. Since that and several other things would have to change for the snapshot model to be operational, there doesn't seem to be an impetus for it.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  12:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this gets brought up every once in a while. The assessment is more for tracking current status. Personally I would advocate for removing quality rankings for our project - we do not improve articles to a higher standard, so saying that it is a "GA-class AFC article" is somewhat misleading since we're really only tracking how far its come since creation. Primefac (talk) 13:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not aware of any wikiproject banners that take a snapshot. That would be complicated to code, and counterintuitive to how wikiproject banners normally work. –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Arguably, the GA/FA Template has a piece on timestamps as to which was the review version. Lee Vilenski 17:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm starting to think I may have misunderstood... I thought each project's rating can be either set to take it from the banner shell, or set to a particular rating value. I had assumed that if it's set to take it from the shell, it will change as the shell rating changes. Whereas (again, I had assumed) if it's set to a particular value, it would remain fixed, unless/until it's manually changed. (This is what I was referring to as 'snapshot'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 18:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

That can be done, yes, but only for projects (like MILHIST) that opt in to that functionality. Primefac (talk) 21:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)