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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

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• AI-generated images depicting living people
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• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
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Martin_Short

This text under Personal Life in the Martin Short biography is poorly fact checked. Note refers to gossip regarding Shorts love life. Should be removed entirely.

Source: https://decider.com/2024/10/24/meryl-streep-martin-short-only-murders-in-the-building-romance/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by KMBLE (talk • contribs) 11:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

It has been removed. Decider is not an appropriate source to put weight on. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:32, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This user doesn’t exist anymore, and the Meryl Streep article says the same thing, plus if you actually look into it there’s a lot more supporting it than just that one article so there’s no reason it can’t be included. That article actually includes quotes from the showrunner himself in fact. EvaSofie (talk) 20:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Have any reliable sources actually reported that it is a confirmed relationship? The most recent reliable sources seem to be framing it as a rumour (), which fails WP:NOTGOSSIP in addition to BLP sourcing concerns. -- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 20:29, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Even the Decider source says "Short and Streep have not publicly commented on their relationship status". Tabloids are expected to pursue rumors and innuendo; Misplaced Pages is not. Schazjmd (talk) 20:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

We now have new accounts trying to edit-war the material into the article. I have reverted again, but will protect if this carries on. Black Kite (talk) 20:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Călin Georgescu

What do you say about ? tgeorgescu (talk) 21:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

For those interested in beating a dead horse, here's a link to the prior discussion from two weeks ago, as well as a courtesy link to the article's talk page discussion: Talk:Călin Georgescu#New Age. – notwally (talk) 21:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Your argument was that I used low-quality sources. Your argument no longer holds true.

So, basically, the burden of proof is according to you infinitely high. This man preaches New Age in public, but since he denies he is preaching New Age, it cannot be stated in his article. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

One of my objections to your content was the quality of the sources. You adding in another opinion article does not address that concern. Another objection was that you are making claims about a living person's personal religious beliefs that they dispute. I don't think that is appropriate, and if it is, then it would need very high quality sources supporting any claims about that, IMO. A third objection was that this content has been disputed and no one else has supported including it except for you, which is far from demonstrating there is a consensus for inclusion. – notwally (talk) 22:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a mind reader, so I do not profess to know his private thoughts. But journalists, academics, and theologians have analyzed his public discourse. There is a difference between private thoughts and public discourse. We cannot investigate the former, but we can know the latter. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

A bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Church has lambasted the danger of the New Age in the context of the Romanian presidential elections. He did not explicitly name CG, but all informed readers know there was no other candidate for whom New Age was an issue. See .

This is getting serious, especially seen that the lower ROC clergy made political campaign for CG. The leadership of the Church played politically neutral. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Chronicles (magazine) has a lot of sympathy for CG, but they also notice he is preaching New Age. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:30, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

RSN discussion about use of a self-published source (The InSneider) in film articles

Posting a relevant discussion which might touch on WP:BLPSPS: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Jeff_Sneider_/_The_InSneider -- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Moira Deeming

There’s been a recent update of Moira Deeming’s DOB as consequence of an affidavit that she filled as consequence of a lawsuit initiated by her. What is the more pertinent policy? WP:BLPPRIMARY which says we shouldn’t use court transcripts or other court documents in BLPs, or WP:BLPSELFPUB which says that because it’s an uncontentious fact which the subject has written about themselves that we can use it? Please see discussion at Talk:Moira Deeming#Date of birth. TarnishedPath 10:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Abubakar Atiku Bagudu

• Abubakar Atiku Bagudu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

A heads up on something worth keeping an eye on. A new user is removing the (sourced) section on this article entitled "Corruption". It could probably do with someone more competent than me double checking the quality of the sources. The edit summary of their second blanking of the section reads: "This information is misleading and it has no basis to be uploaded. The matter is currently in court and should be removed from the subjects profile until adjudicated upon by a court of competent jurisdiction." which is not a legal threat, per se, but does have a chilling effect. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 13:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Potential Bias and Edit Warring on “David and Stephen Flynn” Biography

Hi everyone,

I am reaching out to request assistance with the article about David and Stephen Flynn on Misplaced Pages. There appears to be an ongoing issue with 2 sections: "Careers" and "Health Advice & Public Response"

Several attempts have been made to improve the neutrality of the section by adding balanced context and reliable sources to reflect differing perspectives, but these edits are repeatedly reverted by an editor (or editors) without meaningful discussion or engagement. The old section "medical misinformation" is highly one-sided and does not adhere to Misplaced Pages’s Neutral Point of View (NPOV) policy.

For the "careers" section, the editor(s) keep deleting that they've stopped collaborating with Russell Brand and to make it seem they still support him. Although the original comments were made prior to recent allegations against Russell Brand.

Specific changes made: 1) The section title, “Medical Misinformation,” is sensational and prejudges the content. I have proposed a more neutral alternative (“Health Advice and Public Response”) to better reflect the material. 2) Revisions have added reliable sources, such as peer-reviewed studies and mainstream media articles, to provide context and balance, but these have been reverted without clear justification. 3) Efforts to include clarifications about actions taken by David and Stephen Flynn, such as their acknowledgment of errors and removal of contentious content, have also been removed or ignored.

I believe this issue warrants review by neutral, experienced editors to ensure the article aligns with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines on neutrality, verifiability, and respect for biographies of living persons.

I would greatly appreciate guidance or intervention from the community to address this matter fairly. I am happy to provide details of the edits and sources I have proposed.

Thank you for your time and assistance. SabLovesSunshine (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Related: WP:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#David_and_Stephen_Flynn Schazjmd (talk) 16:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks... I have responded there as I can see that person has gone in to change the wiki page again. Not sure what more we can do. SabLovesSunshine (talk) 17:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I've started a convo on the article talk page. Please continue there. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:DYK regarding Diddy parties

An editor has started a discussion "about the WP:BLP aspects" of a DYK nomination at Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know#Diddy parties. Feel free to offer input there, Rjj (talk) 15:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit War on Trump

Maynard James Keenan

This article contains a mention of a serious allegation against the living subject that, while reported in reliable sources, has had questions of whether or not it constitutes due weight for inclusion on the article's talk page. I don't see firm consensus one way or another, but I did remove it a few days ago since consensus is required for inclusion even for verifiable BLP material per WP:BLP and WP:V. I have since had my removal of this content slightly reverted with the content restored, albeit without the subheading that was included for it. I was considering reverting again, per BLP and WP:STATUSQUO, which directly states: "If you are having a dispute about whether to include it, the material is automatically contentious." However, given that per WP:3RRBLP, what counts as exempt under BLP with regards to the three-revert rule can be controversial, I figured I'd ask here to see what others think would be a good idea. JeffSpaceman (talk) 19:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Ringerfan23:, who reverted my edit, for their input. JeffSpaceman (talk) 19:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I've commented at the talk page. Hopefully discussion there occurs and this thread can be closed. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 23:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Eternal Blue (album)

This article is an FAC. In my review, I brought up a question that hopefully can get resolved here. A band member is cited from this interview for a statement about another band member - specifically, for the statement that the rest of the band met the band member only two days before touring. I've understood that generally, interviews, and especially statements from the interview subjects, are considered primary sources. And in this case, the interview is also by the publisher of the publication, so even the secondary coverage is essentially self-published. My question is, is citing interview statements from band members about fellow band members a violation of BLP policy?

Depending on the outcome here, I also will have a follow-up question about a different set of articles.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, we'd want to make sure we're following WP:PRIMARY. Is there something particularly contentious or controversial about the claim being made? If not, then we're fine to use it. Sergecross73 msg me 13:22, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's a primary source, but the statement about him isn't negative or contentious, and it's clear that it is "According to LaPlante...", so I don't see an issue here. Problems with interviews being primary sources generally occur when they are being used as criteria for notability, which isn't the case here, or when there are disputes about their truthfulness or authenticity, which also isn't the case. Black Kite (talk) 13:24, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

As you (3family6) know, there's a great deal of disagreement about what "self-published" should mean for WP's purposes, what the consensus practice is for considering something self-published, and whether the current definition reflects that practice. I haven't been around long enough to assess whether using this is/isn't consistent with the consensus practice. As best I can tell, the current definition of self-published + the exceptions are primarily intended to keep editors from using sources that are less likely to be reliable for the content in question, especially for BLP content. This source seems reliable for the fact that LaPlante said it, but uncertain re: whether it's reliable for the content of her statement.

Seems to me that whether or not one considers this "self-published," policies prevent the use of this source for this content. If you treat it as self-published, it either fails as BLPSPS (if you consider it as self-published by the interviewer/owner), or it fails BLPSELFPUB restriction #2 (if you consider interview responses as essentially self-published by the interviewee, though I think that interpretation is problematic). If you treat it as non-self-published, then because it's a primary source, WP:BLPPRIMARY is in play, which says "Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source." A quick search didn't turn up any secondary source discussing this particular content, and if it did, there would be no need to rely on the interview for this specific info.

Can you get consensus here to include it anyway, since it isn't contentious and the claim is attributed? The first two responses suggest "yes." But, it also doesn't seem like important content for this article (perhaps more DUE on the Spiritbox article, though it's not included there). I think it could easily be omitted, in which case the issue is moot. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:39, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Black Kite, thank you. That's where I would fall on the issue, and where historically I've always fallen, but I wanted to see if my view is reflective of consensus or not.-- 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Richard Stanley (director)

Some experienced eyes would be helpful here for a long running BLP dispute between mostly IPs and new editors. Some watchlisting would probably be helpful as well. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:26, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

On it. GiantSnowman 13:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate it, thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the IP needs blocking. SPA and edit warring. GiantSnowman 14:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I've warned them about the edit warring and directed them to the talk page. Hopefully that'll have been a productive use of my time. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The disputed entry impacts on an active libel and defamation case. It seems to me this entry has been deliberately edited to suppress public knowledge of the recent libel action. The amendment from 'abuse allegation' to 'abuse allegations' clearly implies more than one public accuser, a further distortion of the truth that seems highly prejudicial to Mr Stanley (a living person) and directly impacts upon his livelihood. The source cited for these amendments, screenanarchy.com, is a blog entry and, in my opinion, not a valid primary source. I believe these amendments have been made by Finland based journalists promoting a tabloid 'documentary' 'SHADOWLAND', that seeks to exploit this case for financial gain. 79.200.21.192 (talk) 15:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Once again - this is matter for the article talk page. You have already been specifically directed to that discussion. This is now becoming a competence issue. GiantSnowman 16:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

In the revision that stands right now, the allegations and response occupy a section of their own, and have two whole paragraphs of prose. WP:UNDUE? WP:NOTNEWS? I'm not convinced that any particular prose dedicated to this topic is encyclopedically noteworthy, especially without a resolution or other events indicating an enduring biographical significance. It would be a shame to actually wait ten years to see, but I don't think it clearly passes that test yet. JFHJr (㊟) 04:26, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Frank Pando

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article in question is about my uncle, Frank Pando, who has requested that I delete the article written about him. As evidenced in both his article's talk page and by a notification on that actual page, there are plenty of problems with both sourcing and notability. I have tried to put up a suggested deletion notice, but it was promptly taken down by some user who said that the subject's request to delete the article is invalid. I strongly urge my fellow editors to take heed of the notability/citation concerns, as well as my uncle's request, and kindly delete this page. Crazy Horse 1876 (talk) 15:28, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I have started the Articles For Deletion discussion which could lead to it being deleted. You will find the discussion here, and are welcome to join in (though it may help if you read that first link to understand the process first). -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

May I ask what he objects to? Skimming through the article, it's just largely looks like a laundry list of roles he's played. I do t see anything particularly contentious or controversial... Sergecross73 msg me 16:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, the subject may object to his mere presence here. I wouldn't have any gripe with that. Living people of marginal notability certainly have the right not to be here. He might still be mentioned on articles where he played a role. But not a marginal standalone biography online that anyone can edit willy nilly. When you're a private figure, it's a due consideration. JFHJr (㊟) 02:50, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

AfDs and BLPs

Those watching this page may be interested in this discussion: Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea lab)#NOINDEX AfDs on living people. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Problematic redirect from one BLP to another: Rabea Massaad

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rob Chapman and Rabea Massaad do not appear to be the same person, and no redirect between them should exist without any explanation at the redirect target, Rob Chapman (guitarist). The AfD of Rabea Massaad specifies a different redirect, and through a series of deletions and a double redirect removal, we're now in this mess. So after a PROD by another user has already been denied on *cough* *cough* procedural grounds, can we finally rectify this situation? The easiest way I can see is still simply deleting the Rabea Massaad page (without prejudice). Thank you. 2A02:8071:184:4E80:0:0:0:EAC0 (talk) 04:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:RFD looks like your forum. JFHJr (㊟) 05:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, Rob Chapman and Rabea Massaad are separate guitarists who once played together in a band called Dorje. The 2017 AfD for Massad resulted in a redirect to Dorje, and the 2023 AfD for Dorje resulted in a redirect to Chapman. Massad has a fairly robust online presence and is therefore a plausible search term. I mentioned him briefly at Rob Chapman (guitarist)#Dorje and edited the redirect to go to that section. By the way, Chapman and Massad are still close associates but the band is defunct. Cullen328 (talk) 18:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I added a reference verifying Massaad's role in Dorje. Cullen328 (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

So now we have a section of Rob Chapman's article which serves as the main Misplaced Pages mention of the band Dorje. There is also a redirect Dorje (band) which goes there. My recent edit updates the redirect Dorje (band) to point directly to the section of Chapman's article that mentions the band. Hopefully this is not a controversial edit. Now that Cullen328 has improved the referencing, I don't see anything else to be done, and suggest that this thread be closed. EdJohnston (talk) 18:39, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to all for fixing this and not directing me to forum shop. 2A02:8071:184:4E80:55C6:F066:7215:3C99 (talk) 18:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Pretendian

Full of BLP and NPOV vio's, unencyclopedic language and unreliable sources. I removed a couple.   Much of article reads like it was copied from a blog post or tabloid, and lack of proof of Native ancestry (and/or or not being enrolled in a tribe) is repeatedly conflated with lying. --Middle 8 • _(s)talk 18:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

... and the two diffs above got reverted , restoring some really poor prose and sources. This is a very sensitive topic area and I don't want to bite anyone, but clearly the article needs more experienced editorial eyes and existing editors need to review WP:BLP (and hopefully realize the difference between editing an encyclopedia and human rights advocacy). --Middle 8 • _(s)talk 11:04, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Unless a published reliable source specifically describes the person as a "pretendian", they should not be on that notable examples list at all. BLP is clear on this - any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately. Isaidnoway (talk) 12:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

One problem is that while the article is about people who falsely claimed Native American heritage, its title is from a pejorative slang term, which it begins by defining. Perhaps a change of title along with moving information about the term Pretendian further down would help.

Listing any notable people who have pretended to have native heritage is a recipe for imbalance and unwieldy length. Instead, we should find sources specifically about the topic to determine which persons are significant to the topic. It's more important to understand why this happens, how frequent it is and what damage it causes than to provide a hit list of perpetrators.

TFD (talk) 15:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

It's more important to understand why this happens, how frequent it is and what damage it causes than to provide a hit list of perpetrators. Well said! Schazjmd (talk) 15:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• The title strikes me as violating WP:POVTITLE; I'm skeptical that the term is common enough to pass WP:COMMONNAME for the phenomenon. If the article is going to cover the phenomenon and not the neologism (and currently, most sources in it don't use the term), it needs to be renamed to a descriptive title. The hard part is coming up with one. --Aquillion (talk) 16:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

A lengthy requested move discussion already occurred and nothing has changed with the term to warrant a title change in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Pretendian#Requested_move_21_December_2021  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 16:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• It seems fairly evident that the neologism and the phenomenon are both notable, but we shouldn't be covering the phenomenon under the neologism: I don't see evidence that "pretendian" is the dominant descriptive term even for high-profile cases of falsely claiming native ancestry. And it goes without saying that an absence of evidence of native ancestry is insufficient to list an individual on that page. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I mean, if the article is titled "Pretendian", the only sources that could justify putting someone on the page is a source using the term "Pretendian" specifically. It's a sufficiently emotive neologism that we can't really WP:SYNTH someone into that category - any source that doesn't use the word "Pretendian" is useless. If we want a list of BLPs who fall under the broader concept, we would need a separate article for that; we can't label people with a neologism without a specific source using the term. --Aquillion (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

That discussion is three years old, but more importantly, it doesn't address the WP:BLP / WP:LABEL issue. We can have an article on a neologism, absolutely; we cannot label individuals with a negative neologism unless we have a source using that precise word to refer to them. Any living person named in that article must have at least one high-quality source calling them a "Pretendian", using that exact word. Anyone who doesn't have that source backing up the fact that they have been called a "Pretendian", specifically, needs to be removed immediately until / unless that source is found - sources that use other words are useless (and WP:OR / WP:SYNTH in context.) --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The term "pretendian" is used frequently in news sources (some Canadian news outlets have dedicated reporters on a dedicated "pretendian beat". The term is used in academia (Google Scholar with Indigenous, Google Scholar with Native, to weed out the Spanish-language discussions). Indigenous identity fraud is used but not nearly as often. If you want to suggest a name change, the talk page of Talk:Pretendian would be the place to do it. Yuchitown (talk) 16:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

In order for a BLP to be included in the notables examples list though, the derogatory term "pretendian" needs to be used frequently and widely published in high-quality reliable sources describing that individual as such, in order for the BLP to be included in that section per BLP and LABEL. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a complicated issue (especially from a BLP perspective) and it seems like a lot of the long form sources note just how complicated an issue this is. I think that others may be right in saying that there may be multiple overlapping notable and perhaps less notable topics here which can be organized in a number of ways. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Vinod Sekhar

I'd appreciate it if some of you BLP experts could have a look at this article. I pruned it some already and found a curious mix of promotional language and possibly overstated accusations. Note: I just blocked an edit warrior from whitewashing it. Thank you so much, Drmies (talk) 02:11, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I've had a small prune and clean up. GiantSnowman 10:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

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