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Revert war over interwikilinks to the siberian-russian wiki
Recently a Siberian-russian wiki was started and there is currently a motion to get is closed down again .
Nevertheless it has some articles and bots are starting to add interwikilinks to articles here but they get reverted by the people, that want that wiki gone. I personally have no preference as to the existance of the wiki, but I think while it is alive it would be a violation of WP:POINT and a disription to enwiki to remove the interwikilinks. See Talk:Ingria#Ru-Sib for some of the arguments involved. The User I came accross on the Germany article doing this is Mikkalai (talk·contribs) but apparently there are more. Agathoclea22:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The issue hasn't really been resolved either way. None of the above answers the question whever there is some policy that would allow the removal of interwiki links. The debate on meta seems very heated, and despite the fact that the "discussion" is of extremely low quality and heavily politicized there do seem to be some genuine problems with the Siberian Misplaced Pages (though the POV argument can be also be called of many others, and from what I could read of that page, there doesn't seem to be anything really terrible on sib like for example genocide denial).
I think this might be a cultural issue, with our Russian partners not understanding that in European culture there is an assumption of innocence. Therefor it has to be first determined if the Siberian Misplaced Pages violates the rules of the Wikimedia Foundation and only then, if it does, should the iwiki links be removed. --84.16.230.24912:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is he still allowed to edit? I've not seen him do anything productive, he appears to be here purely to spam his company. --Sam Blanning00:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
He's continuing to add commentary to various archive pages, trying to get the last word in various long-dead discussions. His comments include accusations that Wikipedians are sending e-mail viruses to his company, among other things. *Dan T.*14:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The "Quebec Vandal"
Ok, this is just getting to be enough here. The guy has used 51 sockpuppets now on a regular basis. Multiple checkusers have been done and the latest one has found that it's a dynamic IP. The latest vandal was User:134.173.56.219, which according to one of Essjay's tools belongs to Claremont Colleges in California. It follows the regular pattern displayed by these users. So, can I propose some kind of community ban of IP's or something? I know we're the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but this is just getting ridicules. It's not just this guy either. Quebec is regularly vandalized, some IP's showing up in the midwest, some on either coast. One was an open proxy (reported to WP:OP). Is there really anything that we can do here, short of protecting the article for all time? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 04:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
134.173.56.219 doesn't appear to have made any "unconstructive edits" to Quebec lately - his/her most recent edit to that article was to revert vandalism. BTW, 134.173.56.219 is not a dynamically assigned address; it's a statically assigned address in the 134.173.56.0/21 HMC student range. It's probably a student editing from their desktop computer; an open proxy is highly unlikely. - A Concerned Mudder
Concur with above, you're misreading that latest edit it's undoing the vandalism. I'd say at the moment this is a classic WP:RBI, don't feed the trolls etc. incident. The vandalism is obvious and reverted quickly, if someone is sad enough to want attention by damaging things don't reward them with what they want. By all means continue the checkusers but if our checkusers can't find a consistent enough pattern to do something more permenant no amount of talking about it here or in any other forum will make any difference, nor will it make the vandalism any more obvious than it already is. --pgk09:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we strike other user votes in an AFD when we are not even an admin and on the other side of dispute. If not then please warn the user because I reverted it back but he continues to do that again. And I do not know what I suppose to do now? --- ALM12:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
In general nobody's comments should be struck out on an AFD because they are not really "votes", and anonymous users are welcome to contribute to the discussion. On the other hand, in this case the item struck out was a useless '''keep''' ~~~~, so I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Sjakkalle(Check!)12:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Useless delete? humm? Should I go ahead and strike this keep too. "Keep, --Shamir1 18:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)"? Being a fair person we all should be consistent in our opinion --- ALM12:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, it was a "'''delete''' ~~~~". Whether we like it or not, unreasoned "vote" type contributions on AFDs do count for something (how much is up to the closing admin) when they are made by well established contributors (I have even seen arbitrators make such posts). When an anonymous person makes such a contribution they usually don't count for squat. I would not recommend that you strike out anything, but if you will remove the the strikethrough and make a comment of the lines of "Please don't strike out anything unless it was made in bad faith" below it, then I don't think anyone will complain. Sjakkalle(Check!)13:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that striking out anonymous votes are a good idea. However, as long as the editor striking out the vote makes it clear that he and not the original anonymous editor struck out the vote, and indicating the reason for striking out the vote, then I'm not going to get up in arms over it. —Psychonaut12:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I love the idea of AFD is not a vote and hate when they do become votes. But that what not the action of closing admin sometimes reflect. Can someone ensure me please that this AFD will not be closed after reading both sides comment and will not be a simple counting? --- ALM12:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
In general striking out the comments of any user in AfD is not permitted. Anon IP users are welcome to express their opinions in AfDs. I will remove the strike and ask the user who struck it not to do this again. We should allow the closing admin to exercise their good judgment in closing AfDs. In this case I doubt much weight will be given to the delete opinion expressed, but it is not okay to strike it out. Gwernol13:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
You don't have to strike out anything by others actually. Usually on close inspection the closing admin of any XfD can tell which to discard and which to consider. - Mailer Diablo21:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
IP 68.208.176.52
This IP vandalizes wikipedia since 19 January 2005. The user have been warned, but he keeps trolling.
Examples:
As of 2006, vigilante involvement in road rage highway battles has risen sharply. Vigilantes often when identifying a road battle involving rage will join in the chase in an attempt to disable the aggressor's vehicle. Vigilantes have been known to employ the use of spears, handfulls of rocks, and cinder blocks to aid in the disabling of an offending vehicle. They maintain that the easiest and safest way to stop a speeding vehicle is a direct hit with a cinder block or spear to the driver or radiator. In Maine in July, a vigilante confused another vigilante who was engaged with a raging driver. The original vigilante noted that the "other guy went racing past in front, slowed, and all of a sudden a spear came flying out the drivers side and hit me in the chest."
The agressive driver will continue to punish weaker, more ignorant drivers until he feels sufficient retribution has been had, or a lesson has been taught.
Wrong speedy tagging by sockpuppets with strange usernames
I have noticed that a user tags many pages that are at WP:PNT wrongly with {{db-notenglish}}, and some of these are wrongly deleted. Please do not delete pages that are not in English unless they exist on other Wikimedia projects: they should be tagged with {{notenglish}} and listed at WP:PNT.
The sockpuppets I am talking about are many new users with random usernames like Miui-kaoa (talk·contribs) and Iwtb (talk·contribs). These users also update cleanup tags, just like the the user Ppgj-nzng (talk·contribs) who recently made the same wrong redirect as Qhkj-mdhm (talk·contribs). Has anybody else seen this kind of behavior and does anybody have an idea why this guy makes lots of new accounts like these and with edits like these? Kusma(討論)19:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Those are just other unrelated users, that much I'm sure of. There doesn't seem to be much more to do other than block any others who show up with the same frivolous deletion request, and if they persist, a checkuser request to block whatever range they're using could be in order. Cowman10920:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This troll has other accounts which have been indef blocked for the same thing. Seems like a good case for quiet blocking when necessary per WP:DENY. --Ginkgo10022:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone please hurry up and take action against this user. Since my notice was posted, he has created yet another article about himself (Peter Watson (political activist)), inserted information on his own non-notable publications to Warwick, Queensland, and made personal attacks by calling editors neo-Nazis . His user page is overflowing with warnings about such behaviour (and not just from me). —Psychonaut10:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
64.107.3.104 (talk·contribs·deleted contribs·filter log·WHOIS·RDNS·RBLs·http·block user·block log) This one is kind of complicated. This user has a static IP address and is blocked under this IP but is editing under 66.99.3.172, 64.107.2.2, 66.99.1.109, 66.99.0.8, and 64.107.1.221. I don't really know how you handle this. But he's engaging in edit wars on the Yasser Arafat article and the Katyn massacre article. He seems to be the only one using these IP's. He's vandalized my user page several times. The IP's are clearly the same person when you look at the edits they've made to the Arafat article attempting to insert the same information over and over when he's been told that the source isn't reputable. --Strothra22:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This is one of our better-known troublemakers from about a year ago: the "George Reeves" vandal, aka "Squidward", who I don't think been around for a while. Those are his IP ranges, and the edits all show his characteristic interests, editing style, comma splices, and "I'm right, I'll revert until I get my way" manner. Here's an example from earlier this year . ; here's an even better contribs list . Not sure if there's a long term abuse page on him or not, or if we killed it under WP:DENY. Antandrus (talk)05:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I've never had to report sockpuppets before and don't know if this is the right venue or format, but here goes. Five accounts were created within the past 24 hours which all appear to be SPA accounts, all have made near-identical edits to a group of closely related Somalia articles, blanked sections and images for POV reasons, and supported each other in revert wars on the articles and in the talkpages. The contrib histories are relatively short, and almost any diff in their histories supports my assertions. I'm not involved in the article itself, I became aware of this through RC Patrol and followed up. The page has been protected, but the dispute revolved around the assertions of these suspect editors:
If I haven't come to the right place, please re-direct me. Otherwise, please investigate: it looks like some blocks are in order. --Doc Tropics04:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the speedy response and good advice. I thought they were obvious, but have limited experience with socks. I (and others) really appreciate your help :) Doc Tropics04:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Possible vote stacking and sockpuppetry at a TfD
Hi all. I'd like to bring everyone's attention to the recent TfD nomination of {{Turkish History Brief}}, which seems to have caused a lot of controversy. I had to warn Zaparojdik (talk·contribs) for the talk page spamming he did, in addition to another user. However, the strangest thing is that these users are voting were clearly notified either by email or somewhere else off-wiki. For example, before ErdemTuzun voted, he his last edit was in 2002, and many other of the users aren't that active either, such as Bugtrio. There might also be some sockpuppetry involved as well, I'm not sure. However, I could appreciate if some other admins could look into this. Thanks. Khoikhoi05:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The main issue isn't sockpuppetry, but the massive vote stacking that occured due to talk page spamming, and possibly something outside wiki. Khoikhoi06:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It looks like we have the same combination of original research, Japanese nationalism, anonymous IP's, mangled English, and revert battling, now shaping up at Korean-Japanese disputes. Maybe protecting this page too is the only answer. Thanks. Room21806:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
211.131.246.10 (talk·contribs) has directly edited Korean-Japanese disputes, and also vandalized Room218's talk page. Although it's hard to be sure, it seems likely that there's one person who has been using frequently changing IP addresses to make controversial and repeated changes to Korea-related articles, specifically where Japan-Korea relations are involved. The use of language and the specific edits are usually very consistent across changing IP addresses. --Reuben10:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
IPs on Ollanta Humala article
There is an IP in the Ollanta Humala article who keeps adding false information that Humala's father is named "Alonso Vargas". As the de facto head of the Wikiproject Peru I can tell you that Ollanta Humala's father is Isaac Humala (whom himself is very well known in Peru). The IP seems persistant and it doesn't seem like he will stop. I am not sure if the IP is driven by malice, in order to vandalize the article, or if he simply doesn't understand that the information he is adding is false. Either way, I do not want to have to be watching this article and getting into a revert war over this and thus I ask for some administrator intervention.
We have one user from Bahrain who seems to be a Shi'a Muslim and an opponent of the current Bahraini regime. He edits from various anonIPs. After he reverted the Rafida article five times in two hours, I asked to have that article semi-protected -- which was done. This seems to have enraged him. As User:89.148.41.41 he left an epithet on my user page and a nasty comment on my talk page accusing me of being anti-Shi'a. Now he's using User:89.148.40.178 to follow me around WP, reverting anything I edit. Could someone please roll back the 178 edits and block that IP, or range of IPs? Zora06:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, and he's come back from different IPs just as quickly. He keeps reverting, various admins keep rolling back and blocking, he gets another IP. This is one determined dude. Fascinating, in a serial-killer-movie kind of way. Zora09:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
JFD has been removing any Indian influence on Chinese culture incessently. He has removed sourced text from Shaolin temple and posted unsourced POV statements on Zen and Chan. Kindly see that this incessent violation of mentioning unsourced text and removing sourced text does not continue.
The article is NPOV, well sourced, provides only information which is absent on all other Gibraltar related articles and simply refers to a community of people (Gibraltarian Spaniards) explaining who they are and a bit of their history. No POV related to the Anglo-Spanish dispute on Gibraltar is even touched and thus is non-controversial. The article was deleted in with a very small number of votes and in a very short time (5 days?).
I know that this issue got be posted at WP:DRWP:DRV. But, Burgas and I thought it would be a good idea to inform admins that Burgas is planning to recreate the article under a diff title and NPOV. What didn't look fine at the AfD process is the duration of the discussion. It was closed after 5 votes and after only 5 days!
Anyway, i believe that after the article is freed from POV (in case there are), it can be recreated under the new title. Apart from the duration of the vote, the nature of the votes are also unfounded (most voters talked about POV -which not a valid reason to delete an article), the nomination was based on that "there exists articles on Gibraltar and Demographics of Gibraltar" is also questioble and not convincing at all as there exist people caled SPANISH GIBRALTARIANS. Any comments or feedbacks? -- Szvest → 17:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask user Gibnews to stop deleting or requesting speedy deletion of the copy of the article on my talk page. He already got it deleted from the talk page of Spanish Gibraltarians and has now requested speedy deletion from my talk page (??) This seems like an attempt to disrupt the current process of undeletion. Thanks.
--Burgas0015:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I saw a piece of vandalism from TheBigDirtyBastard (talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log), and rolled it back. I then checked his contribs to see if it was a vandalism-only account, which I would have blocked indefinitely. It doesn't seem to be, but it is a fairly new account. In that case, I'd just give him a warning. However, I'm wondering should he be blocked for his username. My feeling is yes, definitely, but I think I would tend to be less tolerant of such names than other people might, and I'm not actually experienced in username blocks. I may have done one or two, but if so, they were really offensive names. As it is, I haven't even warned this user for his vandalism, because it seems a bit silly to warn someone for vandalism if I'm going to block him two minutes later regardless of any possible change in behaviour. Can someone please advise? Thanks. AnnH♫19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Just as an opinion, there have been a lot of requests for uName blocks recently for names which are really fairly inoffensive, and it seems to me a trend is starting which may be ill-advised. We're not Disney, after all. This one could offend some; however it is not "profane" - bastard being a legal term, and dirty having several meanings - and may be a semi-witticism on the part of the editor. I applaud Ann's reluctance to block precipitously for uName. KillerChihuahua10:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps he is a fat guy who works on a farm and gets dirty, and was born out of wedlock. This may be really funny to him, and not profane at all. Or perhaps it has less meaning. HighInBC19:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Violation of good faith by user Shamir1
Palestinian Exodus is the scene of a long-running content dispute (but that's not what this complaint is about). Admin User:Steel359 protected the article on Nov 12 for this reason. However, User:Shamir1, one of the main warring parties, was unhappy about which version was protected so on Nov 18 he claimed on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection that the dispute was over. Since the argument was continuing ferociously on the Talk page, with Shamir1 involved, this claim was a deliberate lie in order to trick someone into unprotecting the article. And in fact Steel359 unprotected the article in good faith, only to be forced to protect it again soon afterwards. I respectfully request action against Shamir1 for this dishonest behavior. --Zero05:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The article had been protected since Nov 12 except for the brief unprotection on Nov 18 that I mentioned, that's why he didn't edit it. Look on the talk page to see his continued involvement in the dispute (8 edits since Nov 12). --Zero
I think what Zero is saying is that he had the intent of doing so, and ought to have action taken against him. An attempted crime is almost as bad as a crime itself. -Patstuart07:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
About Shamir1, if you look at his contribs he requested unprotection several times this week. He kept coming back each time after unprotection was declined , and yesterday (his third or fourth request) I decided to AGF and unprotect. It was promptly reprotected when the edit warring started again. I can't say I was surprised. -- Steel12:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I say they should both at least get a severe tongue-lashing, and, if it checks out on Isarig, the version should be reverted. If it happens again, they should be temp-blocked for disruption. I would do so myself, but I'm not an admin. Patstuart19:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If anybody acted in bad faith it was User:Zero0000 himself. Note that this is not a content dispute per se - it's simply Zero0000 deleting mass sourced material. Amoruso21:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
We're not debating here the legitimacy of the changes, we're debating the fact that this user seems to have made a bad-faith request to get the page unprotected, so that he could get his own version back before it was reprotected. Regardless of the legitmacy of the claims, that's breaking faith if it was true. Patstuart22:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean "put an autoblock" on, the original user was blocked quite a while ago before the option to disable autoblocks was available. Autoblocks themselves are not necessarily that simple, in this case it is unlikely the original user id has edited from that IP so an autoblock will not occur (indeed that user has come back under various usernames and IPs over time). I've blocked the IP. --pgk12:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I got a mail saying this( I have added the wikisyntax):
I have been autoblocked by you because I happen to be assigned some IP
address that was used by a blocked user. I (A_Jalil (talk·contribs)) have nothing
to do with the sockpuppet nor the edits that led to the block. Can you
please unblock my username so I can do some edits. Thanks.
the block note is:
Your account or IP address has been blocked from editing.
You were blocked by Fred Chess for the following reason (see our
blocking policy):
Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Featured article (talk·contribs)". The reason given for Featured article's block is: "Blocked user,
sockpuppet".
Your IP address is 213.216.199.6.
I don't have the time to investigate this right now, but I think it is important not to block innocent people, if that's the case here. Could someone take a look and take appropriate actions?
The IP in question (213.216.199.6 was blocked on 01:43, November 11, 2006 for a period of 1 week. This means that it should not be blocked by now!
Anyway, i received an email as well from user:A Jalil who has nopthing to do with the edits of the IP as Jalil maily edits Morocco related articles. I'll unblock the IP which i believe should have been technically ublocked by today! -- Szvest → 12:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed User:Qbkd10's contrib history thinking I'd find blatant linkspamming (mmm, my favorite!). Instead, this seems to be a good-faith editor who has made a couple of questionable contributions, probably because they are unclear on some WP basics (like not creating extra userpages). I fixed a couple of article edits that were problematic, but haven't touched any of the userpages or contacted User:Qbkd10. Hopefully this quick little "background check" will help the responding admin :) Doc Tropics21:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Coat of arms of Wigan - removing perfectly good quotations, apparently in retaliation at being caught and blocked
The socks are User:Copiedimage, User:Tauex and User:Uhrwerkmaus. They've denied being socks even though this is quite blatantly obvious from the identical editing pattern. The vendetta has recently increased in scope, to attempt to remove all coat of arms from Misplaced Pages. I expect more socks to be created. This user has also vandalised my userpage (check contrib history of IP to match to other similar edits made). Please block on sight. Morwen - Talk21:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Generic Mouse, Uhrwerkmaus, Tauex, Rodentiaest, Copiedimage, all blocked indefinitely. Generic Character still indef blocked from last time. I've also blocked the IP (which has been used as yet another persona) for a month for the relentless sockpuppetry - David Gerard23:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Please consider blocking User:Lepetitvagabond for abusing the use of discussion page and making un-factual comments on other users,tagging advertisements on certain page such as Tourism in Kuala Lumpur which is not an advertisement.This particular user is criticizing other editor's language ability and predicts i'm the person who comment in the discussion page without signing which i did not comment anything. User keep putting in comments which is not even related to the article.Therefore,i hope the admins can consider blcoking this user.Marcusaffleck05:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, you have to make a stronger case for the block, after all, what I have mentioned in the discussion forums is nothing more than the truth, in view of the main article itself. Take a good look at your posts, the sock puppets you have created, the numerous pages you have started that has been since deleted... if anything goes, it is you who should be blocked and not me. -le petit vagabond15:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Please consider blocking SSS108 (talk·contribs) for repeated disruption related to Sathya Sai Baba. User began editwar by disputing references to Salon.Com in article, which led to a warning from user:Jossi (admin). User:SSS108 has continued to remove disputed references without gaining consensus among editors, leading to an RFA on the subject. Even after comment was obtained by ArbCom member (Fred Bauder), User:SSS108 refused to accept ArbCom decision on superficial grounds to the annoyance of several editors and admins involved in this dispute, for violating WP:POINT and WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. User:SSS108 has been causing great disruption at Talk:Salon.Com by repeating invalid arguments and continually misrepresenting arguments of other editors, leading to great frustration and annoyance in a gross violation of WP:POINT. User has also been accused of partiality and bias in relation to Sathya Sai Baba, as article was subject of previous ArbCom dispute where User declared himself as an "advocate" of article's subject. User has also been observed to be involved in long and tedious disputes of Misplaced Pages policies in support of article's subject, removing controversial material on superficial grounds. User continues to repeat invalid arguments and disrupt. Request is made for 48-hour block or longer to allow for a cool-off period. -- Ekantik05:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I came into the dispute only a few days ago as an uninvolved admin trying to sort things out. Since becoming involved my impression closely matches the above. This seems to meet the new guidelines on tendentious editing. A block might be in order. JoshuaZ04:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as no one is going to see this section way up on the page, I would suggest reporting to WP:AIV, pointing to this section. I'm not sure if it's standard procedure, but if user needs to get blocked, it needs to be done. That not working, try WP:PAIN and WP:AN/3RR. Patstuart01:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, what we have here is a heated but legitimate difference of opinion between two editors in good standing. It's been to ArbCom but the disputed text is not really covered by that ruling (it's too content-specific). What it needs, more than anything else, is more eyes. I can't really pitch in because I have a pretty strong bias against the subject, plus I always tend to make things worse these days, so if any experienced pourers of oil on troubled waters want to take a look I think it will be appreciated by all concerned. It's certainly not straightforward. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a complex issue because there have been a number of editors banned on this page, and this editor could just be taken a hard nose skeptic to the article. My suspicion, however, stems from this editors "blanket revert" then edit. Also, there has been a number of sesible edits mixed with the blind importing of edits written by banned users. This were both characteristics of the banned editors, and a behaviour that led to months of circular discussion, failed mediation, failed mentorship, and bans. The banned editor had create a complex network of sockpuppets that work together to evade arbcom rulings. This editor, AlanBarnet (talk·contribs·deleted contribs·nuke contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) appears to be a carefully planned attempt. Either way, we'll need to continue to monitor this page and discussion. I will make edits that are entirely within policy to see if this user reverts blindly again. --Comaze01:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Behavioral evidence for evasion of ban/blocks (latest at top): I will then concentrate on blanket reverts as that was a tactic used by the banned editors
This revert was a blatant violation of wikipedia policy with misleading edit comment. The reasons given in following discussion was inadequate to justify the reversion. The changes removed by this revert were all properly discussed on the discussion page, entirely neutral, and based on paraphrases and summaries of peer reviewed psychological literature. Also removed pejorative words.
This revert adds bias back onto the page. Removes some style guidelines for headlines. Adds a spam link back onto the page.
Another blanket revert that removes NPOV-section tags, add some misleading statements, undoes update to cleanup tags, undoes cleanup of whitespace in headings as made by other wikipedian.
Revert my attempt to make sense and clean up the "ritual/techniques" section without discussion. This was followed by a series of edits that imported biased information written by banned editors which is what initial raised the flags that this user may be evading blocks. --Comaze09:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Behavioral evidence (POV edits)
This editor reverts then adds POV edits mixed with useful edits. The follow import POV text written by banned editors (HeadleyDown, etc.)--Comaze11:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I ran a CheckUser on Karcha (talk·contribs) on request, since this ostensibly new user has gotten right in the middle of edit wars and existing conflicts from the beginning, and is obviously not new. It is very likely that Karcha, who has been used for reverting to E104421's revision frequently, is the same user as him based on both the IP evidence, and the editing pattern. Dmcdevit·t01:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The sock has been blocked indef, and I've extended the block on the main (which was already blocked for a 3RR violation) to 6 days. Any admin is welcome to change that duration (longer or shorter) at their discretion. -- Steel02:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I've received an email from E104421 insisting that he's not a sockpuppeteer. He says he mainly edits from his office but sometimes from a guesthouse (which I assume is public). I'm not sure what people want to make of this. -- Steel02:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Gimme an hour or so to investigate their edits further. From what I saw during the last days, I had the impression the contents and profile of their edits was sufficiently dissimilar that I wouldn't have supposed sockpuppetry. In particular, Karcha had some particular issues that didn't seem to be shared by E. Fut.Perf.☼08:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Having looked into their contributions a bit more, let me express some doubts:
IP addresses/checkuser: In his e-mail, E declares that his main IP is a stable non-shared address at his workplace, while others he's used are from a public pool. Dmcdevit, could you perhaps check if that stable IP has also been shared by Karcha? (I'll forward you the IP from E's e-mail).
Temporal patterns: E and K have sometimes been editing simultaneously, in ways that only a very skilled sockpuppeteer could fake. For instance, 17 Nov, 10:16-10:17: 3 edits by K (, , ), one simultaneous edit on an entirely unrelated topic by E (), all of them substantial. 16 Nov, 21:34-21:42 two edits each by K (, ) and E (, ), alternating with only a minute in between.
Language: While both accounts are clearly not native speakers of English, K's English seems substantially poorer than E's.
Editing interests: K has a bee in his bonnet about removing historical Ottoman spellings of Turkish names. E does not seem to share this obsession. Examples:
Hate to butt in, but I just would like to point out that even new users have a right to jump into the middle of edit wars.. Hasn't the possibility that K is a friend of E, and E told K about Wiki and his contributions, and when K joined wiki, he automatically went to articles that his friend E told him about, but later found his own interests, crossed anyone's mind? I am not vouching for the guy by no means, but let's just not be so impulsive and not slap six-day bans on users before a detailed check had been done, as was the case for E104421. So let's not assume.. If u assume, u make.. :)) Baristarim10:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This is too suspicious - even ifthey aren't the same person, the nature of behaviour (3 reverts, then the other account/person kicks in) is at least meatpuppetry. And a "detailed check" has been done - the most detailed possible - Checkuser. Daniel.Bryant10:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, tag-teaming revert wars are quite common on these articles, everybody seems to be doing it, and it's not really evidence of planned coordination. And about the reliability of the checkuser, I've only heard Dmcdevit saying they were using the same university's IP range. However, we are dealing with particular, stable workplace IPs, so I've asked Dmcdevit for clarification if he's also checked that. Fut.Perf.☼10:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Daniel, what u say doesn't make sense: there are tag-team reverts happening by the masses by people who live in the farthest corners of this planet. I don't even know if E knows K, and the link that you gave doesn't mean anything, the fifth edit in question is 12 hours after the fourth one, how is that tag-team revert meatpuppetry?????? Such things happen in the space of tens of minutes. There is nothing wrong with a number of people who feel strongly about a subject to edit insistenly, without being part of a planned conspiracy. The six-day ban was given for sockpuppetry, and unless you have more evidence about meatpuppetry than a fourth and fifth edit spaced by a period of 12 hours, this ban should be annulled and these editors re-instated, and their revoked edits undone. The fact that their IPs are similar doesn't mean much, pls read my post below about that issue. Baristarim10:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
People doing these edits believe in what they do, that's why they are doing those edits. We are not talking about vandalism here, the edits in question are legitimate edits. I also exchanged emails with E on this, he says that he goes to university in METU, a university in Ankara that has 50,000 students, and that teaches in English. So it is extremely probable that there are other wiki users in the same campus. And generally, big organizations like universities have computer centers that assure their Net liasion, and as such they dish out range of IPs. Your temporal check was particularly enlightening, nobody can simply switch back from a computer to another with 60 sec intervals. A six day ban is extremely unfair, since, even though not an administrator, I am not at all convinced by this evidence that they are the same person. I just think that it is not too fair to slap such a ban, without more concrete checks like the one you had done.. That's all.. Baristarim10:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Update: In addition to what I pointed out above, I have forwarded some further evidence to Dmcdevit which, I believe, establishes with sufficient certainty that E104421 and Karcha are in fact two different individuals. They just happened to be both at the same university (which is one of Turkey's largest) and shared certain opinions (which are likely to be shared by 90% of all Turks). Contrary to all appearances (which, I admit, were strong), Karcha seems not to be a sockpuppet of E. E has plausibly explained to me that he doesn't even know K.
Unless there's some strong objections here, and pending ultimate confirmation from further checkuser details, I'd propose lifting the indef block on Karcha and reduce both blocks to something appropriate to "normal" 3RR offenses. Fut.Perf.☼18:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I oppose lifting the indef block on Karcha. In his short time here, he has been nothing but disruptive, with 90% of his edits being reverts, and the rest being personal attacks like "Kill Persianism". I don't see what good to the project we'd be doing if we unblocked him. He is essentially just another version of -Inanna-. I have no problem with lifting the block on E104421, however. Khoikhoi18:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Point taken - in fact, I have no doubt Karcha is pretty disruptive (just like many of the people he keeps warring against). Just a question of whether he's disruptive enough for an indef; I haven't watched him closely enough for that. But I'd like to cut back E's block to normal. Fut.Perf.☼18:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I echo Khoikhoi. If you're confident they're different users then I have no problem with lifting the block on E<numbers>. Karcha has been edit warring quite a bit but I'm also unsure whether s/he's done enough for an indef. -- Steel18:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Watch what you say about "other people" Lukas. Keep it cool. Indirect remarks like that by a new admin is terrible behavior and can be seen as personal attack. See WP:CIVIL. Khorshid18:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Strong oppose to lifting both blocks. Karcha has made personal attacks against me and Iranian editors and has called me "Khorshit". No way thats just wrong Khorshid18:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Even this other guy E112312 whatever his name is, look at his edit summaries. You trying to tell me that This is a productive user????? Khorshid18:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I Agree with Khoikhoi; Karcha should remain blocked, as he is an extremely disruptive editor. As for E104421, while I can't help feeling something fishy in what seems his coodination with Karcha, I think we should always in doubtful cases assume good faith, so the unblocking is OK for me to.--Aldux18:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Dmcdevit is the only admin here with the checkuser tool, his findings indicate that Karcha (talk·contribs) is indeed a sockpuppet of E104421 (talk·contribs). Since then, User:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise has been campaigning/Wikilawyering for User:E104421, and now he's unilaterally overruled User:Dmcdevit's checkuser of User:E104421 by unblocking him, caiming that "sock-puppetry accusations have been disproven" when User:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise is a new admin who has no access to checkuser, and hence is in no position to "prove" or "disprove" anything beyond doubt, and User:Dmcdevit's position has not changed. I find this whole thing very disturbing, especially considering User:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise's history, under his previous username, and the fact that he unblocked Zaparojdik, a freind of E104421, and another problematic Turkish user only last week , or how he tried to justify Karcha addressing an Iranian user as "KhorSHIT". There is a trend here, and it isn't good. --ManiF23:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"Problematic Turkish user".. Well great.. "Problematic user" would have sufficed since there are many "problematic" users of all nationalities. Please let's all take a chill pill.. Baristarim03:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
There is also this issue: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/InShaneee#Comment_by_Fut.Perf.. Again for a new admin he is quick to criticise and single out others and speak on "admin authority". I can respect motivation but for a new admin he is too familiar with the "admin style" and technical parts and also as Mani says above its kind of weird for him to be so quick to step over Dmcdevits finding and make an unblock on a clearly troubling user. To me this all seems like playing games and WP should not be about playing games or backdoor politicalisms. Khorshid00:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
No backdoor what? Please stop attacking other admins because they don't agree with you. FPAS' check was thorough and in good faith. Please be more respectful. In any case, how is this any relevant? FPAS's comments in an RfC in a totally different issue has nothing to do with the case at hand. And I don't understand your beef with FPAS either, just because he made his own investigation, that doesn't justify such ad hominim attacks. Gees, what the hell is going on? Baristarim03:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I was surprised, to say the least, to see that E104221 had already been unblocked. (Especially since we exchanged emails afterwards still discussing this without Future Perfect at Sunrise telling me he'd already unblocked.) The "further evidence" he sent me was not very strong, and he shouldn't have unblocked over it, without consensus. Keep in mind tha "CheckUSer is not a magic pixie dust" works both ways: seemingly vague CheckUser results are not proof that two users aren't the same person, especially when the behavior is proof in itself, and the CheckUSer only serves to confirm it. As I replied in email, Many of FPAS' objections seem oversimplification: remember that both were on many common shared IPs. The behavior is just too coincidental to be believable: hardly ever do two users on the same IP range, much less the same university, edit the same articles at the same time. But editing the same articles at the same time, both involved in the same dispute, reverting to each other, and doing it in such a way that each avoids 3RR by the other's reverts? I think we may be grasping at straws here trying to find a way to demonstrate their distinct, when the opposite is much more obvious. Please remove blocks without consensus in the future. I've reblocked E104221 since the sockpuppetry was in no way "disproven". Dmcdevit·t21:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, they can be two friends in the same university. Did that cross your mind DMC? And how do you know how this university dishes out its IP addresses? avoiding 3RR blocks by tag-team reverting is done by people who lives tens of thousands of kilometres away, are we going to block all of them too? And besides there are many software tools and web-sites out there to escape such IP identification. This guy goes to Middle Eastern Technicla University in Ankara, the best technical university in Turkey, so I guess he would have been much smarter if he wanted to engage in sockpuppetry instead of just jumping into the computer next to him and typing away. There is no question of coincidence. So you are basically saying that I have no right to tell a friend at office or university "hey, why don't you check out wiki, these are some of the articles that i have been involved in"? I don't know that guy, and I don't know how anything happenned, but he told me that he doesn't even know Karcha. And escape 3RR in a period of 14 hours? You gotta be joking. In the case that got E suspended in the first place, there is a period of 14 hours between the fourth and fifth revert, how is that such a blatant case of tag-team reverting? Baristarim21:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Btw, I don't think that calling another user "Khorshit" are the grounds for an indef. Bans should increase with every other offence. First give him smaller bans, and see what he will make of it. Maybe he continued being "disruptive" since nobody warned him that he could get banned for doing so. And he continued since he never got banned. Baristarim21:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Holocaust Research Team
Normally I know what to do when a new user posts promotion across a number of articles and pages. But not this time. is potentially a very sensitive cleanup, even though it doesn't need administrator privilege. And so I thought maybe I should bring it here. (Let me know if this was wrong). Notinasnaid17:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, not so hesitant - I've warned and am reverting. Anyway, keep an eye out for more of this in Holocaust-related articles. FreplySpang20:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This continues, and appears to be a confirmation (in case one were needed) that the website owner/operator is adding the links. Which is a simple and clear violation of WP:EL, perhaps? Notinasnaid21:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Mhm. Thanks for the background info, WAS 4.250. It certainly explains why so many of the edits were replacing links to deathcamps.org. FreplySpang23:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I blocked them for 24 hours last night for these offences, and have tried to explain the problem in email, though I'm not certain if they'll change, as they seem to think they were correct (that's the impression I get). Martinp2307:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd say at least 48 hours, as it's the second time he's been blocked this month for the same thing. However, Tawker already blocked him for 24 hours... Titoxd02:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Question about Replacing page with: type vandalism - Just a question ?
I haven't found that type of vandalism in my first nine months since i've started to edit at Misplaced Pages. But over the past two days, i've been concern about a new trend of vandalism. There have been tons of IP's along with registered users doing vandalism by using the edit summary : Replacing page with XXXX (which is generally non sense). I've first spotted in the San Francisco, California article when it was a featured page. Then multiple pages such as Ségolène Royal, Colombia, Ottawa Senators and many many more were attacked by the same method. Even my own User Page got attacked today.
I'm wondering if those types of vandalism are coming the same group or a same user using multiple suckpuppets and IP's or it. Or it's just a new option I haven't notice? Thanks!--JForget03:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It's a new feature of MediaWiki. If someone doesn't use an edit summary and they blank or almost blank a page, it's smart enough to put that as the summary. There is no massive attack of vandals. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 03:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok thanks a lot for that! I was wondering about the suddent apparence of that especially when User:64.235.216.166 did that to my page. But it certainly make vandalism removal a bit easier for us. Thanks!--JForget03:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Crzrussian
I recently was checking new pages, and I then received a message from Crzrussian. It was all about not biting newbies, and I was trying to be nice while still doing the right thing. So I wrote him back and said talk about biting the newbies, as I haven't had alot of time here myself. Then I got a message from an anonymous user telling me that crz has been causing alot of problems and "throwing his weight around like he owns the place". I'm asking now, to review what Crzrussian has been doing and deal with him or look into the matter deeper as you feel necessary. Not taking any sides here, just making a suggestion. Please read the respective comments on my talk page, and thanks so much. Ard004:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Based on the message you received , looks like CrzRussian's got a stalker. Probably the same banned user who complained about him here . Looks to be from the same ISP. Fan-196704:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Ardo, welcome to Misplaced Pages in case no one's said that before. I wouldn't worry too much about the last person who posted on your homepage. He seems to be involved in a dispute with Crzrussian that you don't have anything to do with. As for the note you got from Crzrussian, I think he is right that you are probably being a little bit too quick to put deletion tags on bios of potentially notable people. You might want to wait a couple of days after an article is created before tagging it, for example, in case the original author is planning on expanding it, and speedy tags should only be used on bios of people who are definitely not notable. I might not have said what Crzrussian said in exactly the same words he used, but he does have a point, and I'm sure you'll bear it in mind.
In hopping over to your userpage and talkpage as you requested, I noticed that you have a lot of information about your "real world" self on your userpage. There has been a lot of discussion about whether it's a good idea for younger editors to be revealing too much identifying information. Especially if you're going to be active in vandal-fighting and proposing articles for deletion, you might not want some jerk who gets annoyed with you to be able to see that information. I say that not because I want to breed paranoia here, but it's a concern that's been expressed from time to time and you might want to delete the information like your real name and school from the page. Newyorkbrad04:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Angry Bahraini again
Um, the angry Bahraini has come back as User:89.148.41.227 and is reverting everything I edit. Please block THIS IP as well. Does this guy work at the ISP, so that he can evade blocks at will? Zora04:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Do not need to work on ISP. Usually many ISP have big pool of IP address (many class C or few Class B address). Hence each time when you reconnect to them you might end up having differnt IP address thanks to DHCP (espacially when using dialup connections). Furthermore, in places like Lahore, Pakistan you can buy a one Euro card of any ISP use it for few hours and next time can get different card of differnt ISP. Remember we had there dozens of ISPs. So changing IP address is very easy. Just for your information and also I have never done that myself :) (that guy is not from Pakistan too but it was an example country) .... --- ALM11:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
problem at Abraham Lincoln
One editor named Stevewk has a problem with the major article on Abraham Lincoln. He says the article is too long and proposes to remove all the information on the American Civil War in order to shorten it. The other editors unanimously and strongly disagree with his insistence first that the information (over half the article) be blanked, and then that it be moved somewhere else. Warnings seem not to help, as he goes back again and again. Probably 3R is involved, and more serious anti-Wiki behavior as well. Rjensen06:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have pointed the user at Misplaced Pages:Summary style, which discourages this kind of wholesale moving of content without leaving a summary in place. The cut-down version of the article was very non-optimal and didn't even mention the Emancipation Proclamation outside the lead : its excessive length is a minor fault compared to that. Morwen - Talk11:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
DRV on Cleveland Steamer
Cleveland Steamer recently went through it's 6th AfD (here) instigated only two weeks after the last one. The response was 'keep', and in all previous AfDs it has either been Keep or No Consensus. It was brought to Deletion Review here (where the nominator essentially tried another AfD, pretty much in the wrong place) and consensus was building to endorse closure when User:Improv deleted it out-of-hand. He's entitled to his opinion on the matter, but he can't ignore process (which involved support from other admins to keep) and delete it like that. I would welcome opinions on the conduct of the decision (not so much on the content of the page). Trebor22:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Isn't process meant to help improve the encyclopaedia? I've got nothing against debate on the merits of the page, just against admins making decisions unilaterally. The article has been restored (the talk page hasn't) now. Trebor22:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Process (i.e. the rule of law) is the only thing that keeps wikipedia from descending into a Hobbesian state of eternal wheel warring. An admin that shits all over process - whatever the Cleveland Steamer of the moment - thereby demonstrating pure disdain for fellow users who are participating in good faith in the process, should not be an administrator. An administrator who becomes convinced that his judgement is more worthy than the collective contribution and thinking of hundreds of other users no longer has the self control to act as an administrator. This event was a good example of why all admins should be open to recall. --JJay23:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Now now, I don't think we should be recalling Improv because of this. He's a good admin and deserves to keep those responsibilities. Does he make bad decisions now and then? Sure, but so does everyone. A bad decision once-in-a-while doesn't mean we should take away a person's admin duties. Here, just like with the cookie fiasco, I believe he was acting in good faith. He might have made bad decisions, but he was certainly editing in good faith. - Lex20:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The thing is, in the real world you don't get too many shots at fiascos before you are ousted. Just ask Patricia Dunn, Mark Foley or Nick Leeson. In the real world, the issue is competence, good judgement and the impact of decisions, not good or bad faith. This is not this administrator's first fiasco. Since in his remarks below, he indicates strong opinions on who should and should not be an administrator, let him show good faith by adding his name to Category:Administrators open to recall --JJay20:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
You might note that a website encyclopedia is quite far from the state of nature, and that Hobbes was a bit mad. —Centrx→talk • 20:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you talking about the philosopher or the stuffed tiger? The Misplaced Pages article lacks any details about Thomas Hobbes' mental health. --- llywrch17:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Consensus can't override foundation issues. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a slang dictionary. This should have been left deleted. Friday(talk)23:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
And we've been through all those issues ad nauseum, and they have not gained a lick of traction. At best, they don't violate any "foundation issues," at worst it's a judgement call - which is why consensus should rule the day. --badlydrawnjefftalk23:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
You cannot assert that it overrides foundation issues, it is not clear-cut. If it was, there would not have been nearly so much debate. It was an issue with experienced editors arguing coherently for both sides, and in these cases consensus is the only way you should decide it. It is not up to the discretion of a single admin. Trebor23:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I must say, though Improv might have broken process, that seeing it go would have been very good riddance. To give my nasty opinion, it's a shame that humanity would even think of such an awful deed, let alone practice it and glorify it with an article. One thing Misplaced Pages does not need for publicity is Jon Stewart standing on comedy central and quoting directly from this article. Granted, I can't support this with rule (hence the reason I didn't vote in the last afd), but wow, this is pretty low. -Patstuart03:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It isn't at all clear to me that this should have been deleted. The matter is sourced at this point and I see no obvious foundation issue. As for Jon Stewart, I think Misplaced Pages can survive ribbing from Comedians. I could very well see someone see this as a reason to get rid of BDSM or some other sexual article that offends people's sensibility. Personally, I find this topic disgusting and revolting to the point where I almost have to work to suppress my gag reflex. However, none of that is a reason for deletion and is certainly not a reason for an out of process deletion.JoshuaZ03:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree completely with JoshuaZ and JJay above. I don't see "Does Jon Stewart find this article amusing? (YES/NO)" on our list of inclusion criteria. A) I don't understand why this is a Foundation issue; B) It is inherently outrageous and anti-wiki for an admin to blatantly overide consensus; C) It is deeply offensive (far more offensive than the article itself) that anyone should seek to censor the encyclopaedia because they don't like the information it contains- see e.g. this, and many similar, for some examples of how and why this is done. 6 AfDs is enough. Badgerpatrol04:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem is not that people don't like it, but that the article consists of a dictionary definition, some original research, and "pop culture references" (aka cruft). There is nothing encyclopaedic about this article. Guy (Help!) 10:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say to censor it, I said it would be good riddance if someone did. But, in any case, my personal opinion (not Misplaced Pages policy, so I can't ask for it to be enforced), is that sometimes we take free speech, which is supposed to be a means, and make it into an end. Free speech is supposed to help people become more informed for a useful purpose (a means), help improve something (a means), etc.; becoming offended at the lack of free speech (an end) does not fit into this category. It's proper to become offended at the lack of free speech where it's used repressively, or in order to hurt content. Do you see my point about free speech being a means, not an end (I'm not sure if I'm communicating it well). Even Misplaced Pages says Misplaced Pages is NOT anarchy, meant to test the limits of free speech. Again, I don't think it's policy, so I have no right to enforce it or call for its enforcement; just my opinion, as we all have opinions. -Patstuart04:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
For reference, my deletion had nothing to do with finding the subject disgusting or anything of that sort. I am libertine when it comes to such things. I deleted it solely because it was very clearly a dictionary definition. Consensus is not about voting, it's about discussion, and good arguments. This is an exceptionally clear case of when loud users who don't understand our project goals lead a bunch of fans away from them, ignoring everything our project is about and confusing consensus with democracy. I don't intend to redo my deletion (although I would encourage other admins to do so) because I don't wheel war, but I stand by it entirely. Wiktionary and Misplaced Pages are not the same project, and process is not sacred. People who would never go against a "vote", no matter how ill-informed and ill-conducted, even when it stands in the way of project goals, are people who should probably never be either closing discussions, nor should they be administrators. --Improv07:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
So although you have no intention of engaging in a wheel war personally, you encourage other admins to do so? Take a bow my friend. RFerreira07:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I encourage other admins to delete it, not to wheel war. This is how we reconcile project goals, IAR, and a desire not to wheel. As you say, I shall take a bow. *bow* :) --Improv07:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
But the way you deleted it implied it was something you would have happily deleted on sight, seeing as you deleted it in the midst of a DRV (which is about process, not content), which was endorsing the previous decision anyway. If it is so "exceptionally clear", how come admins support both sides? Should the admins who closed the 6 AfDs on the article all step down? I would say that people who will happily delete something, out-of-process, against consensus from experienced editors and admins, because of their personal opinion of the arguments shouldn't be an admin either. Trebor07:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Look at the AfD. Half of them don't even address the article, merely saying "abuse of AfD" or something, and are invalid on their face because they ignore the question of if the article should be deleted. None of the other arguments adequately deal with the fact that a definition and a few references that the term is indeed used does not make it anything more than a dictionary definition. Neither consensus nor AfD consist of taking votes. I am not proposing that anyone step down, merely that people had mistaken ideas about what AfD is about. We all make mistakes, and we all come to understand the project and its goals better as time goes on - demanding "justice" for an inadequately thought-out position would be a bad idea. I should note that what actually happens always comes down to judgement, whether from one person or from some combination of people - there is no shame in "personal opinion/judgement". --Improv07:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The reason they don't address the article is because there were five previous AfDs. The issue had been discussed at length and every time no consensus formed to delete. And no, you didn't ask anyone to step down, but you did say they shouldn't be administrators (and the only way for that to happen is via voluntary desysopping or arbitration). Of course the issue comes down to judgement, but when many users have the same opinion on something it is called consensus. Your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's, and where there's disagreement you shouldn't take action on it alone. Trebor16:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Or, alternatively, they could come to understand what's needed to keep the project working. I'm not a big fan of removing admin bits from people - if it becomes too common, then the project will fall to rabid populism and we'll see even more use of the resources of the project by people doing unrelated things. I'm not saying I don't believe in consensus, but I have a very different understanding/definition of it than yours, and to whatever extent yours means "let people vote and give them whatever they vote on", I think that's a recipe for killing Misplaced Pages. Long-term users should be educating less long-term users, and having discussions on where the project is going and how to interpret/apply policy. This is very different than voting, and it's what's needed to keep the project healthy. Previous AfDs don't give one a blank checque to not contribute to the current one. AfD is about judgement, not voting, and people pretending that they're voting while not contributing to the discussion should be ignored. The case is clear, most of the people aiming to keep are people who have never shown a significant understanding of policy (newbies), and previous people who closed the AfDs were not doing their job (as is anyone who goes by numbers rather than argument). --Improv19:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
My opinion isn't so much "let people vote and give them whatever they vote on", but I don't think that this applies in this case. You say previous AfD closers weren't doing their job because they went by numbers, not arguments, but in this case I don't believe that applies. Do you honestly think that the decision on this debate was clear-cut, that it should be deleted beyond a doubt? Because that means there are a lot of experienced editors and administrators who are seriously misunderstanding policy, which is not encouraging for the project as a whole. I think this is a judgement call. Trebor21:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You have it exactly. I believe that the decision was clear-cut, and that the project as a whole is not in a good state. What we need, I think, is a very hard push against voting and towards discussion with a strong reliance on project goals. As a thought experiment -- what would need to change about the article to make it a dictionary definition? --Improv21:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Not a great deal, I admit, but I think it has the potential for expansion beyond that (plus I generally think it is a useful article on a topic which won't be covered in a dictionary). Can I ask you what you think of Dirty Sanchez, Teabagging and Donkey punch? Do you think they should be deleted? And if so, should you/would you delete them on sight as in Cleveland Steamer? To be honest, my concern is not so much about the merits of this specific article but the deleting of it in such an out-of-process way. You essentially speedily deleted it based on a dicdef argument, which is specifically listed as a non-criteria on WP:CSD. Under what grounds did you think that was justified? Trebor22:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I haven't looked at them, but if they're nothing more than a dicdef, then I'd delete them on sight if it became clear that Wiktionary did not want them. Very few "processes" on Misplaced Pages are hard rules - they're guidelines that, as per WP:IAR, are ignored when they lead to problem results. That naturally causes trouble/conflict when people notice (and in situations like this, people are bound to), but when people arn't so caught up in rules that they lose sight of the project, sometimes the right thing happens despite the rules and the people who are sticklers for them. Process is not sacred here, and out-of-process is not always a mark of something bad happening. I felt it was justified based on the content, the fact that we have a project specifically for that stuff, and that having talked with some representative folk for that project, they don't want it there either. Misplaced Pages is not a "rule of law" type community. It's a bit more cowboy, and involves judgement, give and take, a certain amount of oligarchy, and a lot of messiness. People who attempt to simplify it *into* rule of law generally find their stay here disappointing. --Improv00:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree very much with your last 2 sentences, and I think I now understand your reasoning behind your action. The problem with WP:IAR, however, is that it can be invoked in either direction (and if I recall correctly, someone used it as an argument in one of the AfDs). You could say delete it on sight per IAR, because it violates policy. I could say keep per IAR (because it's useful and not actually gonna be found in a dictionary), and don't delete on sight because that violates policy. The result? A mess. I don't think you're going to change your mind and say it's useful and should be kept anymore than I'm going to say it should be deleted - we both have our views. I would merely ask you take more care over using IAR on an obviously contentious issue (and, I suppose, state explicitly that you're using it). Trebor01:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. The big problem with IAR is that it might encourage people to ignore all rules! The end result? Either a) complete chaos (likely) or b) domination of the project by an elite "superclass" of users (i.e. admins) who, despite making up, what- 0.01% - or less- of the project, can take action in spite of clear consensus. Depressingly, I often see comments by certain admins that come very close to actively agitating for the latter scenario. This article has been nominated for deletion 6 times, survived every time, and yet I do not hear trumpets sounding or the walls of Wiki-Jericho crumbling. Is there any scenario that would justify ignoring consensus in such a blatant fashion. By the same token, I'm not necessarily arguing that the admin concerned was acting in bad faith- but it was, IMHO, a bad, bad call. Badgerpatrol19:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
No, it means don't follow a rule that will result in the wrong outcome. Ignoring people who want the wrong outcome may be a side effect. In fact, that's a desired side effect. — Saxifrage✎20:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
But then you have to decide which is the "wrong" outcome. Which in a contentious issue is not agreed on. So how do you decide which is wrong? By looking at the arguments made by the people. Which you can then choose to ignore...it's a circular argument. Trebor21:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! I also speedy-deleted an article the kid created with basically the same information, and told him on his talk page to refrain from posting personal information about himself. -- Jim Douglas(contribs)05:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You know, of course, that there isn't a "WP:CHILD policy" -- it's a proposal under discussion, without consensus. Not saying it's a bad idea to remove this stuff from Misplaced Pages, but you're doing it on your own, not as a matter of policy. --FOo05:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Point taken. But whether it's an official policy, a proposal, or just simple common sense, an 11-year-old child shouldn't be posting his full name, city of residence, school name, names of several friends, and other personal information, including a description of his house. -- Jim Douglas(contribs)06:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a reminder: Several of these "I'm very young, here's my photo and personal information" accounts cropped up recently that turned out to all be from the same IP. One theory is that someone was either doing basic trolling or looking for a perverted-justice style incident. Now back to our regularly scheduakled programming. - 152.91.9.14405:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
However, we should also not be WP:BITEing newbies, and comments such as "We cannot allow you to post personal information about yourself" could have been worded a bit more tactfully. Perhaps we should create a template for this matter. (Radiant) 10:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, that's right. Make a template so pedophiles can just search for all the pages the template is used on to find young kids easily. That's not a good idea folks. Neither is posting the information here, where now in the archives for all time, people will know how old that user is. Be smart about this. Find an admin and contact them priavtely to get info removed. pschemp | talk00:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe so, but I still think the user posting said information should be told directly what happened (The deletion) and why to prevent them recreating the content because it disappeared without a trace and (for them) for no obvious reason. 68.39.174.23800:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
User:NazireneMystic removal of npa warnings and sockpuppet
NazireneMystic has removed two npa3 warnings I placed on his user page . Please restore them. User subsequently received an admin warning and a temporary block, see warning.
I see your Wikipedianlawyering never stops. It was clearly pointed out on the
Misplaced Pages:Personal attack intervention noticeboard in this following DIFF that your prior warnings were unfounded . As far as Im conserned unfounded warnings are vandalism to my talk page.
As no warning (other than some unnecessary ones from Oyidah at an earlier date) were issued, I've warned NazireneMystic for this edit, which was unacceptable. I would hope that unless he/she continues making edits of this kind, the matter is now closed. Proto::type15:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I beg to differ. Most reasonable people would consider being called deceitful, ignorant, diabolical, and a meatpuppet to be personal attacks on their character. In this diff this user admits to calling me these things and argues they are not personal attacks because they are all true. A continuation of this behavior is why this user was warned and blocked. Ovadyah06:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Admins, See what I mean? After two admins have already read that post and after looking things over desided it was not a personal attack this editor keeps proving my points through his actions.
Just defending myself becomes a personal attack in his eyes. Read the warning and block section of my talk page and you will see the reason given for both. Its worth noting the warning and block resulted from the same edit,at least according to the admins that posted them, maybe not in the mind of my accuserNazireneMystic18:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as your unfounded report of socketpuppetry please read up on the socketpuppetry artical and maybe your unfounded personal attacks of me would stop. It is clear the account was created after I forgot my password to the Nazirene account and in my first edits using it I ID'ed myself as NazireneMystic. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=SpiritualEbionite Hardly a socketpuppet.
It should be noted this editor has already tried to claim on the Misplaced Pages:Personal attack intervention noticeboard I evaded a block by the use of this account when it is clear from its contributions page it was not even used during that timeframe. So now the claim that I moved my tlak page because I anticipated a block? what evidence do you have ? I moved my tlak page because of past vandalism to it by you as can be seen in your frivolous warnings and wiki lawyering tactics and ongoing reports of things that do not exist. Please stop throwing invented crap up on the wall hoping something will stick.
Again, I beg to differ. The user page was copied over to evade an expected block.
09:17, 14 November 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:SpiritualEbionite (saving endangered info) (top)
The other account hasn't been used since 11 November and the move occurred before I administered the block. Suggest you follow-up with a suspected sockpuppet report. Post again here if problems resume. Durova01:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes he/she did sugest a suspected socket puppet report after this editor made false claims I evaded a block. This editor still seems to be fixated on this even with evidence given from Durval in the above post that I did not evade a block and both contribution pages that during the block I did not edit. This is the hostile stance I have faced from him since I attemped to NPOV an artical he has strong religous and or political interest over and has lead to all the tactics shown in my talk page. Some of his deception I exposed that is on the talk page was mearly a defense from acusations against Allan Crownshaw in the edit were you called him my leader and tried to make it seem that Phillps person is a mear secetary as can be seen in the archived section or my talkpage. Just constantly facing his allegations becomes a personal attack to him. This editor has even ran off one of the scholars mentioned in the artical as a source and he is only after me because I stand up to this garbage he postNazireneMystic18:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Admins, please do not say this is not the place to resolve this dispute, so far all Ihave seen from the RFC TO peerreview to deletion hearings is this editor act as a meat puppet and his POVshoping among other tactics. I only waht to present evidence that this is just another unfounded complaintNazireneMystic00:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about that. This user constantly trolls my contribution logs, and this sort of thing happens wherever I post. My purpose was not to complain or dispute anything. Please refer to my initial request: 1) to restore npa3 warnings placed on the users page. These were scanned by a bot, and should be removed by an admin if deemed inappropriate, not the user himself. 2) PA Noticeboard suggested I report duplicated userpage as a possible sockpuppet. Ovadyah13:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Users are allowed to remove warnings from their talk pages, so no can do there I'm afraid.
The sock allegations have already been given and discarded above (the other account hasn't been used to evade the block) yandman13:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Tourette's Guy has been AfD'd twice, but entries about the website are often made to Tourette syndrome. The latest issue is a post to Talk:Tourette syndrome by Turrets Guy (talk·contribs). I don't know if the user name or user page content is OK given the AfD, and if the talk page entries should be removed as spam/advertising. The people who follow and support that website are aggressive and coordinated, so I'm not inclined towards taking any action myself, and not sure if any action is even appropriate to the case. There are also constant posts of this nature on various pages. Thanks for any advice and help, Sandy (Talk) 23:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thanks, I appreciate JzG's help. If they continue to troll the TS article or talk page, I don't want to delete the entries myself, as I've seen other people become targets of the followers of that site. Sandy (Talk) 13:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm mediating a debate which has become somewhat overpopulated by sock puppets. (checkuser request with it's results). The following users are confirmed to be the same individual:
I'm not sure what course of action should be taken, but I figured an admin over here might be able to give me some idea! The ongoing mediation can be found here. From my perspective, I'd be happy so long as the above user doesn't saturate my case with comments under multiple accounts. Thanks for the help. →Bobby←15:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose striking out all the socks from "interested parties"/"breakdown" except for Shortcut.road, and then retagging all his comments made under different socks with his name. I've got some free time right now, so I'm willing to do it if you want. yandman16:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That works for me. Feel free to leave a note on the mediation to let the other users (of whom there are now a mere 3) what's happening. →Bobby←16:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If you have a minute, could you take a look and see whether this version of the article is substantially identical to versions that had been speedied in the past? Thanks! -Hit bull, win steak17:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Need someone will rollback button to deal with linkspammer
User:125.23.21.153 has been linkspamming various Bollywood-related pages. I don't have the rollback button ... could someone please roll back his edits? (I can't take this to AIV, since he's only just been warned.). Zora19:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
with respect for your swift action - that user comes on every few weeks to a month, vandalises a series of pages, then vanishes again for another few weeks. A 24 hour time-out will have zero effect. raining girl19:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
True but my block was the second one after Bishonen's block which was a 3h block. It would be harsh if i'd have given the vandal more than that. If he returns, it would be longer for sure. -- Szvest Ω 20:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
it is a school, but as I pointed out, the vandalism has recurrent themes (Dan was here, Dan is best) that indicates it is the same person who is using it to vandalise. raining girl23:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
True, it's a school IP, but 100% of the contributions, over several months, are vandalous. It's also likely that it's not the entire network, or there would be more contributions; just a single computer (or set of computers). -Patstuart23:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Whilst responding to an WP:OTRS compaint, my attention was drawn to the userpage of Budo (talk·contribs). This seemed to me to contain possible libels and certainly to violate WP:USER. I have deleted the page . As this is an unusual action, I am reporting it here for review.--Doc22:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello all, you still haven't found many of the pages which have been defaced. I will continue to do so until some sort of compromise is reached in relation to administration of Internode_Systems. Lots of proxies to go and plenty more random pages to edit. Love, Chuq/Longhair Vandal aka Guy with a grudge. :P 66.45.235.13206:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
On speedy patrol, I came across RuneScape Cheats, which seemed to contain detailed how-to advice on how to hack into other players' passwords/accounts on RuneScape. As this might be potentially dangerous information that people could use to harm each other, I've speedied under IAR. Feel free to overturn if you think I overreacted. Wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell on AfD, of course. Fut.Perf.☼02:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Heheh, this will teach me doing speedy patrol late at night when I'm sleepless - I didn't even read it carefully enough to realise it was a scam. Maybe if I had, I would have left it there? After all, anybody who falls for it will only get what they deserve... ;-) Fut.Perf.☼08:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
And, as a followup: I sent in some clearly false information. Got the following reply:
The Accont info u sent us was inviled.
plz resend us the info it must be right.
Not many people use this to recover thir account any
more.
Plz sent us your usser name not your real name.
And send us a different users name and pass so we can
look that up in our info and we will send u the other
pass for your other account.
If this other accont info is right we will send u the
Carnildo, you shouldn't be sending inviled Acconts to these helpful people. You should be sending links to spelling resources. Otherwise, how can u b shure you're interpreting their response accurately? KillerChihuahua10:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I made the comment because Courtney is indeffed with sockpuppets, and it's an odd topic to have been brought up again by a different editor. Anchoress03:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm seeming suspicious, but it's just an odd coincidence. You've got a provocative username, you claim to be 14, and your first edit was to create an article on a fringey topic brought up recently by a banned editor. Not harshing your buzz, I'm not an admin and I am not trying to razz you or whatever. It just seemed a bit peculiar. Consider me 100% supportive of your constructive edits to WP, and if the speedy was illegitimate, I hope it's resolved. Anchoress04:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It was deleted as "nonsense", which means that the editor who tagged it, and the admin who looked at it, couldn't figure out what it was about. I suggest, if you recreate the article, trying to be more coherent and using the "show preview" button - I apologize if that wasn't the case. -Patstuart03:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Would someone mind checking the contributions for Whotookthatguy? I have seen his edit summaries and he keeps placing swear words in edit summaries. He did it here, here, and here, using "shit" in each of them, but some of you might think these are considered personal attacks. Could someone mind talking tho this user about using profanity in edit summaries? I'm quite sure there's a policy about pervasive edit summaries around here somewhere... --D.F. "Jun Kazama Master" Williams14:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Afaik there are no policies against such words in edit summaries. You might ask him to change his tone, but this doesn't seem to require admin intervention. Aecis15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Using the word 'shit' in an edit summary is not offensive in itself. Misplaced Pages's not censored. However, some of the uses are not particularly civil. To see which ones are incivil (see WP:CIVIL), just replace the word 'shit' with the word 'garbage' - does it still seem unnecessarily blunt or terse? Then it's incivil. If it's just because he's used the word 'shit', then those warnings are not fair. Proto::type15:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I've brought this topic up before and I think it bears repeating- please people let's excercise some common sense. Misplaced Pages not being censored for minors means we have articles like clitoris and penis with pictures. This doesn't mean we should use profanity when it doesn't advance the encyclopedia. All that does is drive more people away from the project and make fewer parents and teachers willing to have their kids use Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, edit summaries are one of the places that people are most likely to read and because of the GFDL will under most circumstances be there indefinitely and are not even easily refactorable like talk pages. Our goal always should be what will help the project most and we should use language accordingly. JoshuaZ15:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well said Joshua!!! It's about common sense Proto. Why not use something else instead of "shit"? The problem is that when the user in question used that word in the edit summary, he/she was refering to something he/she didn't like and wanted it removed. So it is about respecting other contributors and not censorship. I believe this section explains a bit what i am talking about. -- Szvest Ω 15:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I see that you decided to make a comment and then immediately post this on AIV. Nope, let's not look at his contributions, or the fact that the comments were on things that were completely asinine, let's get some administrative intervention. Common sense tells me that 3 instances across several months do not a high-level problem make. --Elaragirl20:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, it is about common sense. Using the phrase 'no shit' is perhaps a bit sarcastic, and maybe not the most suitable phrase. Come on, though - it's not 'really abusive'. Kinda reaching there, the guy (assuming it's a guy) has done nothing particularly wrong. Of course, it's not ideal, and avoiding the use of 'shit' would be preferred. Finding, as Elara says, just three, extremely mild uses of 'shit' in edit summaries across months of good edits is not a problem, at all. Flipping heck. Proto::type09:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I was using this article for a class presentation. Now when I click on the above link - all the previous information is gone. Can you bring it back? Can you protect the page? I was relying on the information for my class presentation. I really need this information back.--75.44.41.13600:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The information is present at the moment; however, because pages are likely to change over time, I would advise you to look at a link on the left of your screen under the toolbar that says "permanent link". The links is here, btw. -Patstuart00:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This user is a persistant vandal: however, he/she attends the school that I do, and this is the school's IP address: as such, if it is banned, I will probably be autoblocked as well. Nonetheless, I believe that this user should be banned indefinately, as nearly EVERY SINGLE EDIT, despite COUNTLESS WARNINGS, has been vandalism of one sort or another. Please do not block me too, aside from one sandbox edit (at the beginning) I have been relatively good. Thank you.
We cannot block an IP indefinitely (especially when it's a school IP). With the new software you could probably continue editing throughout a block, though. Please report their activities to the school's system administrator so they can take action. - Mgm|12:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Some moron messed with the title for the bust of Homer on this page. It has "ass hole" put in as if it were a middle name. I'm new here so I'm not sure how to fix it but I'll look around.
I know it's usually against procedure, but something has to be done in the short term about the levels of vandalism to it and several related articles and talk pages.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I emailed myspace for you here: . You should do the same. They will take the profile down and hopefully ban the user. DVD+ R/W04:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
No, they probably will wipe the page; they have to worry about getting sued as much as we do. They may not ban the user, though. Patstuart04:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty of sending off a lengthy e-mail as well. I think the content will be removed soon enough. I'm sure that Uncle Mart will learn soon enough that it's a decidedly bad idea to screw around with lawyers. -- Samir धर्म06:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I blocked the ranges it appears, based on the long-term abuse page, he always comes from, for 24 hours. Someone should contact his ISP and get them to disconnect him, as it appears he has been using the same ISP for months. —Centrx→talk • 10:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I've blocked Yrgh for 24 hours for disruption. He's been going around removing links to soapcentral.com from soap opera-related articles. He continued to do so after being asked to stop and explain his edits, and repeatedly blanked his Talk page. If anyone else thinks this was premature or unjustified or whatever, please feel welcome to undo my block. --Slowking Man10:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I just semi-protected Rory Fitzpatrick. I figured I would post about here, since it isn't may not appear justified at first glance. The basic story is that a message forum wants to nominate Fitzpatrick to the NHL all-star game as a joke. They have set up a website and are discussing various ways of promoting it, including adding the information to Misplaced Pages (see their thread about it here: ). I have removed the unverifiable information a couple of times and just semi-protected it. If another admin feels I was out of line, feel free to unprotect it. Otherwise, I'll unprotect it in a few days. -- JamesTeterenko04:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have it on my watchlist. My comment in his talk page has made it back to HFboards with general acceptance that a major media outlet has to report this first. Most users accepted this (oddly apparently not realizing that I was posting in that very thread all the way through), but, of course, a couple wish to add the website anyway. FWIW, I believe these are good faith edits rather than deliberate vandalism, and given how many people (and how many forums) are on board, I am surprised that the level of incidents has been this low. Resolute23:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
After a discussion on my talk page, I've decide to unprotect Fys's talk page and give him one last chance. It's easier than arguing with him. --Tango16:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The block and protecting his talk page are both completely pointless, and could be construed as stupidity. What are either supposed to achieve, all they have done is proved that newly qualified admins should not be allowed the block buttons. Giano16:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No it isn't. I just mean that the block log was the reason for your statement, but you did give any reasoning for it. Say why it was stupidity, preferrably not using that language, if you would like to contribute to the discussion. Dmcdevit·t16:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Please take the time to read what is written "could be construed as stupidity" if you want to analyse that, it could be construed because it was obviously the wrong decision, personally I tend to concur with Mackensen below - it was a "disgrace" Giano16:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I will leave it to others to discuss the etiquette of the WP:AN/3RR page and the merits of the initial three-hour block, or for that matter of an 8-fold increase in the length of a block based on the protest of the original block. I will note, however, that there appear to be differing views as to when it is appropriate to protect a blocked user's talk page, a step that cuts off all possibility of on-Wiki communication. My understanding had been that this step was considered drastic and was reserved for situations where the page is degenerating into true personal abuse, revelation of private information, or the like. More recently, however, I have seen page protection invoked based on allegedly "disrespectful" responses to a block or replacing one unblock request with another. It might be appropriate to develop a broader consensus on this issue. Newyorkbrad16:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
A general discussion on the issue is probably a good idea. I went on the logic that you're entitled to one appeal (the unblock template clearly says not to try again), so once you've had that appeal, you have no need to edit your talk page, and it's just a waste of admin's time to let you keep going. Combining an extended block with protecting the page (as I did) is questionable, I think it's right, which is why I did it, but I can see good reasons not to, which is why I undid it again. --Tango16:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It looks like Fys may of gotten a bit ahead of him self.. but since when did being interested in 'helping' become part of the blocking policy? Fys actions don't seem overly disruptive, I concur with Brad above about the protection of his talk page. MatthewFenton (talk16:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The disruptive nature was because he "helpfulness" looked like an admin making a decision (). I don't see a problem with non-admins offering opinions, but stating "no block" is disruptive. --Tango16:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Be serious here.. this is an encyclopaedia.. not a court room.. its hardly disruptive to the encyclopaedia, a warning would of surely sufficed. MatthewFenton (talk16:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a disgrace. Am I to understand that he was blocking for the offense of disagreeing with an administrator? And that the block was extended because he thought that was ridiculous. Has it come to this? Mackensen(talk)16:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No, he was blocked for disrupting 3RR and refusing to stop when warned. The block was extended for wasting admin's time with pointless repeated unblock requests (again, after being warned to stop). --Tango16:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
First post since I got told to basically fuck off from ANI... I haven't read the rest of the conversation, and I don't have time to right now, but in case it's of any importance, Fys sent me an e-mail earlier asking if I wanted to review his block. JDtalk16:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that Fys has been acting in disruptive ways, (inventing Duty Solicitor as a role, changing the 3RR writeup, claiming ("no block") that 3RR blocks are not to be imposed and giving the impression of being an admin, etc) but I'm not sure I agree that everyone else has been sufficiently sensible in their communication of these issues to Fys. I'm also not sure I agree with Giano's characterisation of events or his comments bordering on personal attacks either, but that should not be much of a surprise, really, we rarely agree on approaches to matters these days. But if Mackensen says that there is reason to be concerned, then stepping back and reviewing matters with a view to making sure things go more smoothly in future might be a good idea. ++Lar: t/c17:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Lar, you and I have never agreed on an approach to anything. It is a pity that 1000 plus admins took so long to spot an obvious error. Giano17:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Giano, that's not true, we have in the past agreed on many many things, but lately, since your unwarranted attack on me during the Carnildo re RfA, you and I have not seen eye to eye. In this case, you are right about there being some significant question about whether this sequence of events is appropriate, but you are delivering the message wholly inappropriately. There is no need to be so strident in your criticism, and I stand by my comment that your comments here border on incivility. That's not a crusade by me against you, by the way. ++Lar: t/c17:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Giano, I don't think you should bother responding. Anyone following Lar's crusade against yourself knows what to think about his latest comment. Some people are here to write encyclopaedia; others to block these people from editing and to follow them with incivil comments for months. We now have 1,5 admins for each active editor. Some of these admins find it prudent to block more active and dedicated wikipedians, who contributed to multiple featured articles, as their first action after obtaining the tools. Some defend this behaviour as perfectly reasonable. Since RfA has been broken, it's quite useless to point your opinions on WP:ANI, WP:3RR or other public boards. --Ghirla-трёп-17:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think you're confusing a supposed crusade by me against Giano with an apparent crusade by you, against every admin, just about, or so it seems. The comment you make about "block more active and dedicated wikipedians, who contributed to multiple featured articles" suggests you think there are free passes. There are not. Internalise that. ++Lar: t/c17:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I just commented that we have ca. 500 active article writers and more than 1000 administrators. You can't get away from the facts. The latter often think themselves superior to the former, for some reason that escapes me. The present case is a nice illustration of what happens then. That's all I had to say, thanks. --Ghirla-трёп-18:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That rather depends on what you mean by article, there are a few who do write articles, and I suppose the rest must have done once I suppose. I rather think now though it depends on popularity and chatter on IRC. If the 1000 or so elected are not active then perhaps they were not as dedicated as those editors who have been editing away here for years without seeking to be admins. Giano18:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Which is their choice. And how about all the editors who aren't here any more. Shame on them too! I've come here to dispute the conduct of two sysops over a blocking, not to have another go-round about the evil IRC conspiracy. You've no cause to continue this crusade. Mackensen(talk)18:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
"You say you want a revolution... we're all doing what we can". Ghirla, et al, I'm not sure that going down the who contributes what road is all that useful. We all ARE doing what we can, or what we want to contribute. Myself, I write for a living (in part) so, while I could write big articles, I don't find writing large amounts of text all that relaxing. I tend to get involved in other things, like smaller articles, project templates and mosaics and gadgetry, and helping out with janitorial tasks. We all know that without writers there would be nothing to keep clean and without cleaners, the writing wouldn't last long. So let's stay focused on this case... ++Lar: t/c19:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh Lar, This is a general converstion, why do you always have to turn everything arownd to yourself? You folow me about having a pot here and pot there, I was not even thinking about you, in fact I don't think about you Giano21:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well Giano, I guess I long for the day when you don't think about me... so I don't have to read silly threads like this one, User_talk:Lar#.23wikipedia-en-admins where you turn up on my talk page and disruptively interfere with my answering a question from another user with inane cloak and dagger stuff. But that's not what this is about, it's about Fys, a user already under sanction from ArbCom who was revert warring and was called o n it. You made disparaging and not very nice comments (which Dmcdevit in turn called you on, remember) in this thread about how it went down (your point was valid, the way you delivered the message, not at all valid) and now you're trying to spin it all around as if I'm following you about. As if! I'm not the one that turns up on your talk page harassing you, you're the one that turns up on my talk page harassing me, several times now. Whatever. Stay focused man. This is about Fys, not you, not me. ++Lar: t/c22:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
There we have it: a gentle hint to be less interested in 3RR. Shoo. Go away. Input not wanted. If that's the way the 3RR noticeboard is being run, then it's broken. I've had run-ins with that place before, and I've always come away with the impression that it was obsessed with the letter of the law rather than the spirit, and that appealing a block made there was like pulling teeth. Mackensen(talk)17:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I get confused when i look at Fys's block log. He's been editing since early 2004 and had never been blocked until this month. He got blocked 4 times in November 2006 (mainly because of 3RR, evading block, disruptive incivility, personal attacks). I am just wondering about this sudden change of behaviuor. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ®17:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Totally agree with User:Mackensen. "with an expiry time of 3 hours (a gentle hint to be less interested in 3RR)", "A gentle hint to be less interested in 3RR"? I realize that Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy but can someone honestly tell me where such blocking reasoning corresponds to Misplaced Pages blocking policy? Regardless of whether or not User:William M. Connolley was correct in this block (which given the blocking reason I don't think he was) an uninvolved admin should be the blocking party... not an inolved one like himself. (→Netscott)17:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Not to accuse or defend anyone but the truth is that William has been doing a great job on the 3RR. Misunderstandings happen all the time. It's getting a bit personal above between some wikipedians and what i suggest is to just take it easy and that all parties in this discussion calm down. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ®17:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Except that you do mean to defend William and are doing so. Which is fine, but don't claim you're not. My concern is that William blocked someone with whom he was in a dispute, and with whom he has been in a dispute before. That's completely inappropriate. Mackensen(talk)18:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I haven't accused Fys but wondered about the change of his behaviour lately before getting an explanation. I haven't defended William actions but for the sake of calming the situation down i reminded people about William hard job. Maybe my comment was understood differently. -- Szvest Ω 19:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This actually brings up a reasonable question; is there anyway the devs can make it so user logs transfer across with a users contribs when doing a name change? Glen17:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh perish the thought, did you not follow the "Giano Case" the developers have better things to do with their time was the comment I think there Giano18:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
We have a tradition here that a user can abandon an old account, make a clean break of it, and start over with a new identity and a clean slate, as a fresh start. (with no reputation, good or bad, to build on) If the new identity edits in good faith, and doesn't get into trouble, bygones are bygones. This even holds true (defacto) for people who are indef banned, as long as they don't repeat what got them banned, and never connect the accounts no one would ever know. We also allow changing user names with a retention of history (the name is changed, the old name redirected, etc.) but no "start over". Where it gets muddy is when it seems like some of each is desired. It does seem that way to me, Fys moved some things by copy/paste with a stated reason of wanting it to be harder to tie things together to his older ID. That's not a clean break... a clean break is in my view starting over completely. Many people who are indef banned don't seem to want to really break with their past, they want the best of both worlds. I don't favour that, it needs to be one or the other. If there is probation evasion, etc, the terms of the probation come over if any deliberate connection is made. Including copypasting things to evade easy linking. ++Lar: t/c18:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I saw Fys' edits to the 3rr board, and it looked to me like he was being disruptive. I figured he was setting himself up for yet another block. Given my past interactions with Dbiv/Fys, I saw nothing to be gained by involving myself. It looks to me like William M. Connolley blocked him for 3 hours for disruption. Even if the block summary was less than apt, I support the 3-hour block. Tom HarrisonTalk18:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
In looking at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR it seems that there are only a few folk who regularly get involved in deciding blocks for 3RR violations. I think we all agree that if one is involved in a dispute it's not a good thing to also be involved in handing out blocks around it. Would it be helpful if there were some way to encourage more admins to participate in this part of keeping things running smoothly? (I have given out a few but it's only because people turn up at my talk page and ask me to get involved...) ++Lar: t/c19:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I've moved Bishonen's post out so it's clear it's not a response to this post, which I think is still an open question... do we have enough people helping out on 3RR to avoid potential conflicts of interest? That maybe should be discussed somewhere else, not sure... (Please feel free to change it back if that is not the desired effect) ++Lar: t/c22:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm quite upset. I agree 100% with all the comments of Mackensen above, and with his unblocking of Fys. Tango, your notion that a blocked user, confined to his talkpage (how is he going to disrupt the 3RR board from there?) needs to have his block extended, and his page protected, for talking back to you on that page, is hair-raising, and so is your statement above that he has ""no need to edit his talkpage" once the unblock request has been reviewed. Do please consider the unequal power balance between an admin and a blocked user, and the shock effect of being blocked at all; it is to be expected that a newly blocked user will be terse rather than humble, and it is expected that you, from your position of power, be prepared to put up with some of that and stay cool. Yes, even that you extend a little patience to such "disobedience" as restoring the unblock template--what's the huge deal there? What are the tremendous swathes of "admin time" being wasted, what's the "quiet life" being torn to tatters? I'm very sorry you didn't see any need to post here for review before performing those actions, because they're a big deal. Perhaps you should be excused for being a new admin... or perhaps, being new, you should all the more make a point of posting on ANI before zapping a productive user for 24 hours and simultaneously closing off their single means of communication? Please request input from the community next time you feel that a user must be prevented from wasting your time by speaking to you. Bishonen | talk19:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC).
I think you have a point, additional communication and help might be good, but did you mean it as a reply to my inquiry as to whether more eyes on the 3RR process and notice board might be beneficial? Also do you think that Tango is more likely to learn from friendly feedback and guidance or from the sort of feedback that uses "utterly stupid" and similar phrasing? ++Lar: t/c19:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Please stay focused on this case, as you say above, Lar. Even I, who can read your subtext, am bored by seeing you trot out that old Giano grudge/Bishonen grudge for the nth time—how bored must other people be? Sorry if the thread formatting seemed to imply I was speaking to you, I'm not entirely clear on these intricacies. Please note for future reference that unless I should directly address you, you can quite safely assume I'm not speaking to you. I was speaking to Mackensen and Tango. Your yearning to see me criticize Giano and let you watch didn't come into it. Bishonen | talk22:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC).
Who Lar has used the phrase "utterly stupid" please provide a diff for that, as you have phrased it within quote marks. I have yet to note an awful lot of friendly feedback from Tango, or am I missing something here. All I can see is you sniping away as usual. Giano21:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I redact any claim that you precisely said "utterly stupid". Instead you just said "could be construed as stupidity", "proved that newly qualified admins should not be allowed the block buttons", and "disgraceful" (not your initial remark, just your latch on when someone else said it first)... for which you were warned by Dmcdevit. Twice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, you need to work on how you deliver messages, even when you're right. That's not a grudge, not a snipe, no matter how you or Bishonen spin it, it's merely an observation... that your input to this process may not have been as helpful as it could have been if you had been more collegial. Do you actually dispute that? Further, that it is I that points it out to you doesn't mean it's not true. You can have the last word, my point's made. ++Lar: t/c22:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes Lar, I will have the last word, until I started to make a noise none of you fair minded dedicated admins could be bothered to do a thing about Fys's block, presumably all too busy chatting away on IRC playing with your cloaks and daggers. - Good night. Giano22:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think you're missing the fact that I extended the block after the *3rd* unblock request, I simply warned after the 2nd. And a blocked user can affect more than just their talk page - they can affect Category:Requests for unblock, which causes other admins to waste time dealing with a matter which has already been dealt with. --Tango20:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the point is, in relation to Tango, that he was an admin of not quite 24 hours standing. He chose to involve himself in a block review involving an admin of quite considerable standing. To decide to unblock is in effect saying to the other admin "You have broken policy and done something you shouldn't have done". I ask as a rhetorical question of human psychology whether a new admin, however fair they try to be, is really going to do that to someone much more senior? No, of course they aren't. They are going to bend over backwards to see the other admin's point of view. That's why Tango should not have chosen to be involved. I do not fault his inexperience as an admin, I fault his judgment in getting involved in something where there was only one conclusion he was ever going to reach. Fys. “Tafysaym”. 20:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
You are right, I would never have unblocked you, even if I'd disagreed with the original admin, however that doesn't mean I would have endorsed the block. I would have sat back and let someone else deal with it. Agreeing with the original admin is pretty uncontroversial, so there is no problem with a new admin doing so. Disagreeing with the original admin is very controversial, so I wouldn't have gotten involved. You've assumed that I made the decision to get involved before assessing the case, which is completely incorrect - I decided if I felt the block was appropriate, and then decided if I should get involved. --Tango20:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a clear problem with the unblock template, then. Much like flipping a coin where heads count and tails dosen't count, unless adminstrators reviewing unblocks have the courage of their convictions, the answers will ALWAYS be heads, regardless of how many tails were flipped already. How many adminstrators are reviewing unblock requests pro-forma? Stop it, if you are. JBKramer20:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I would imagine most administrators do have "courage in their convictions", as you put it. The only reason I wouldn't generally go against a decision another admin has made is because I'm new to the job - give me and month or two to get used to things, and if I disagree with another admin, I'll do something about it. Until then, I'll let someone else do something about it. --Tango21:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes Lar, I will have the last word, until I started to make a noise none of you fair minded dedicated admins could be bothered to do a thing about Fys's block, presumably all too busy chatting away on IRC playing with your cloaks and daggers. - Good night. Giano 22:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That is a slur on every administrator on this encyclopaedia. I, for one, am offended. Am I to understand that this is acceptable discourse? I believe I asked this question two months ago, but was told that because Giano had been so grievously violated by Tony Sidaway that some harsh language was understandable. Well, he wasn't even blocked this time and it's happening again. What especially troubles me is that everything obviously took place on-wiki. The initial block, the extension, the protection, my unblock--everything happened on-wiki. Yet this is all apparently the fault of those grievous off-wiki machinations, which Giano credits as the cause of all our problems. This is utterly unacceptable behaviour, especially from an experienced article editor who has been warned repeatedly that incivility is unacceptable. There have been many words of censure today for an inexperienced admin who made a mistake. Are there any for an experienced editor, who has yet again demonstrated his sovereign contempt for civility and politeness in public discourse? Mackensen(talk)23:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe this is a good point for everyone to just stop posting in-thread. The extraneous conflicts are out of order here. Fys is back up and running; his point has been made and agreed with by a number of admins and users, and disagreed with by a number of other ones. I think that this would be an appropriate topic for a RFC for Tango, if Frys wants to continue the point. Everyone else getting into a fight on ANI isn't going to help anyone. Please calm down. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert23:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no desire to start an RFC on Tango and will not do so. On William M. Connolley, that's different. Fys. “Tafysaym”. 23:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think a block on Fys was really warranted this time. However, Fys should immediately cease from sending rude emails to users who do not agree with him. Thank you. — Nearly Headless Nick10:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
If you don't want me to complain about your actions, then don't block me for having not broken a policy. Fys. “Tafysaym”. 13:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Move attempts by Gene Nygaard
Gene Nygaard's unilateral moves for the remotion of diacritics in articles' names have been reported here on AN/I last month (see )
which resulted in a community probation banning him from non consensual article moves (see ).
However, I believe that he might be trying to dodge the probation by his recent attempt to propose a move while tagging along more than ten other moves. On November 17, Gene contested moves carried out by Mibelz by proposing Árpád Élő to be moved back to Arpad Elo (see proposal and discussion). 13 other moves were associated to Árpád Élő's, resulting in a lack of proper discussion relevant to each individual case. I am frankly worried about this situation because if there is consensus about removing the diacritics to Árpád Élő, the others would follow suit without even being discussed. This is the nth time that I try to explain to Gene that his moves are disruptive and compromise Misplaced Pages's accuracy, but it's hopeless really. Could somebody please verify this situation? I propose the 13 moves to be detached from Árpád Élő's and I suggest Gene's conduct to be once again evaluated.--Húsönd20:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry I didn't have time to dig into this when you brought it to my talk page, thanks for bringing it here. I'm thinking that each of these moves should be discussed and consensed on separately. Bundling them all together by Gene may not be the best approach. The community ban from moving suggests that it's clear to the community that Gene shouldn't move things or cause them to be moved by confusingly obscure mechanisms. ++Lar: t/c20:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
I have been watching the Indian Buddhist Revival page and it's talk page since I posted a response to an RFC there. I haven't made any edits to the article itself, because the article has a lot of...stuff going on and I want to be very careful to thoroughly source any edits I make.
In the past two days, I've watched as User:Hkelkar has removed every single edit from User:ShrilankaBuddhist. without any comment on the talk page first, and adding what I would describe as inflammatory edit summarys. I've done nothing, though, I really felt for this user - as far as I can tell,he has little command of the English language, and he's doing his best to make good faith edits.
When User:Hkelkar actually removed the post from this user on the article TALK PAGE, I put my foot down]. This person at least has the right to speak. My very first edit to this page was to revert the talk page. In the edit summary I put "I double dog dare you..."].
He left the Talk article as it was, and added a comment. He then put a civility warning template on my user page. Another user (whom I barely know) very kindly took it off - not at my behest, though I thank him for it. Hkelkar put it back. The other user removed it. There is now an EDIT WAR going on at my USER TALK PAGE].
I want someone to look at this. Hkelkar has no business editing my user talk page. He also, in my opinion, has no business removing a post from an article talk page. The other user is simply helping me do something I would otherwise do myself. I didn't ask him to do it, but I did post a thank you on his talk page the first time he did it.
Notice the extremely inflammatory nature of NinaEliza's comments. I have "no business" editing her talk page? last time I checked any wikipedian can comment on a talk page.Plus, she seems not to understand the concept of neutrality at all.
Srilankanbuddhist keeps persistently adding bogus edits to the Indian Buddhist article and making highly incivil comments
in his talk page. This goes above and beyond the normal background noise of incivility and is outright rubbish (in this edit, he refers to "nomadic tribes in Mumbai", a nonsense statement he keeps entering everyday, you know of any "nomadic tribes in Mumbai?". First he says millions of people converted to Buddhism, not in citation given, now he bumps it down to thousands, using an extremist Sinhala propaganda source. If he uses that then I will use tamilnation.org in the article as well). He clearly has no concept of wikipedia policy and perhaps you should drop a word on his talk pae about civility.In fact, these Neo-Buddhist editors seem to be shuttling back and forth. First Dhammafriend, then he disappears and Ambedkaritebuddhist, now he's gone and Srilankanbuddhist appears. Some kind of sock/meatpuppetry is definitely afoot.
And then, Ninaeliza rushes to defend his extremely inflammatory comments here by using incivil edit summaries like "I double dog dare you" (for which I duly warned her).She seems to think that wikipedia norms do not apply to her.Hkelkar09:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
So, if you kept reverting the new users edits with popups (meaning no explanations in your edit summary), how did you expect his edits to get better exactly? BhaiSaab09:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
For details, see this case in point, where Blnguyen (an admin) arrives at the same conclusion of incivility. Also, see this and this regarding her "friend" BhaiSaab (an anti-semite , no less)Hkelkar09:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar and other users, you have no business removing other users comments from the talk page of the articles or the user talk pages. Please remember that the userpages and the user talk pages alloted to you are not your property, they belong to the Wikimedia Foundation. Please assume good faith with other editors. NinaEliza, that double-dog dare you edit summary is provacative if not a personal attack. Hkelkar, edit summaries like this can be construed as disruption and newbie biting. In case you think that this user is a sockpuppet of another user, you can report this to WP:RFCU along with evidence. Please do not edit war over any page of wikipedia. In case you think that a warning has been unfairly given to you, you can comment below the warning and let the administrators decide. Hkelkar, in this case your civility warning was not justified at all. BhaiSaab, please do not leave edit summarieslike these, they can be construed as personal remarks. You have every right to comment below the comments left by other users. — Nearly Headless Nick10:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I sincerely apologize to Misplaced Pages for my provacative edit summary. I will never do it again. Thank you for the correction. NinaEliza10:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the point was merely that the URL should be added to the spam-blacklist so the bot doesn't just re-post it rater than that the page should never be deleted. --Sherool(talk)14:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
An editor has just re-uploaded an image Image:Teairra Mari - Second Round.JPG that was deleted yesterday because it lacked origin and copyright ownership problems. It has again been tagged for those problems, but now it has seven days before it will be deleted again. As this was 'speedy' deleted before, speedy as recreated material doesn't seem to apply. The editor, Lilb1293 (talk·contribs), has a history of uploading unattributed images, and does not respond to talk page messages. Can anything be dome about either the re-uploaded image or the editor -- Donald Albury14:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Our article Universal Life Church has been systematically vandalised for another church's own personal gain. Our church ULC Monastery has been in a continuous edit war trying to maintain the legitimacy of the article. The user ULCGUY was banned from editing because of his repeated defacement of the article. But now a new user un-registered user with the IP of 75.26.52.67 is starting to deface our article. I would like to request that this page be put under semi-protection too keep this from happening. I am new too Misplaced Pages so I do not know how too post this under the request for protection page. Regards, ULC Monastery. --Brdennis15:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment - You can request protection for a page here. However, as Yandman points out, a few "experiments" a day isn't really too bad, and if all these edits come from a single user it is often better to deal directly with the user and not lock a page from potentially helpful input. →Bobby←16:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Those are multiple IPs over a single range. This page has been added to the watchlist of IRC Antvandalbots and would be monitored over time. However, if that does not help, I would suggest a temporary semi-protection of the page over a period of few days, so that it might stall vandalism. — Nearly Headless Nick16:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The IP range 84.255.148.0 - 84.255.158.255 is the Batelco, or Bahrain Telcommunication Company, DSL range. Can we block the whole range? And communicate that to Hussain Ghasra, (hussain@batelco.com.bh)the listed contact for Batelco? I'm told that Batelco hasn't been cooperative in the past, but perhaps someday pigs will fly and the Mac lie down with the PC. Zora17:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Could I get a block for disruption for this user? He just posted what he claims is his account password on his userpage in this edit. If he were a more constructive editor, I'd say to remove it from the page history and give him a talking-to, but he's been a problem in the past. -Hit bull, win steak17:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to the evidence I presented at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience, Prosfilaes attempted to start an argument with me here. Essentially, Prosfilaes took aggressive exception to my observation that while academic credentials are correlated with notable ideas, they are neither a cause nor a logical prerequisite thereof. Shortly thereafter, apparently in retribution for requesting arbitration here, I was aggressively stalked by one "Haldane Fisher", who (among other nuisances) reverted all of my edits, and only my edits, to the article Academic Elitism. Fisher was quickly spotted as a bogus account and blocked by administrator Cowman109. But this was not the end of the problem, for Prosfilaes, apparently smelling a golden opportunity to extend his quarrel with me, immediately capitalized on the situation by following in the footsteps of "Haldane Fisher" and removing all and only my own edits to the page, using the false pretext that only my edits were not referenced. In fact, none of the generic references listed at the bottom of the page were cited anywhere in the section I edited ("Arguments For/Against"), which shows that this pretext was invented by Prosfilaes to cover his violation of WP:Harass. Nevertheless, while trying to hold the line against Prosfilaes' damage to the article, I attempted to reason with him/her on the article's talk page. Unfortunately, in return for my patience, Prosfilaes indignantly reported me for "violating 3RR" while again reverting on his own, thus prompting administrator William M. Connolley to block me. When I explained the situation to Connolley, he irritably refused to lift the block. He did, however, advise me to report Prosfilaes to WP:ANI. I'm following Connolley's advice, and would appreciate it if something could be done to prevent a recurrence of this blatant harassment. Thank you, Asmodeus17:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Brendan Loy
A message board has posted a link to Brendan Loy resulting in a spike of vandalism and unregistered edits. Requesting semi-protection. Zz414 19:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
If you look at Wp:fac#Christopher_Reeve and click on edit you get taken to a blank page. Click on project page and you will see a note that this is a redirected page. This makes it hard to figure out how to edit the page. I think fixing this requires Admin intervention. --Ideogram22:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Wblakesx (talk·contribs) is spamming my talk page with text dumps after I got involved with a debate between him and KillerChihuahua (talk·contribs) regarding the God page. I'm honestly not sure what's going on here. He's constantly left messages on people's user pages despite being warned against doing so. I really don't think he means any harm, but I need someone with more authority than I to set him straight on what is and is not acceptable behavior here. Danny Lilithborne03:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
He left another message complaining about admins here. I'm not sure if he's targeting these veiled insults at me. Because I left him warnings about editing other people's user pages, he might assume I'm an admin. *shrug* Danny Lilithborne01:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello all, tis I the 'vandal' This is what happened:
I added a remark, a reference from gnosticism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/Gnosticism ) to Huxely ( Ape and Essence ) that was perhaps too sophisticated for my own good. I got a note from Kchi ( I can't remember what he said, and my record, MY talk page was destroyed by someone ) so I clicked on the link he left on my web page... big mistake, I got the vandalism charge laid on, but I didn't understand what was happening so when other admin warnings ( attacks ) came I replied to the LINK Posted on my Page. I explained all this to no avail. I tried the help button and was roundly abused for it. Meanwhile the record has gone, God knows where and I'm not at all sure other conversations I had on my talk page have been restored by reversion. There's something smelly about the hole thing, some bugs at ( the very )least. Not much better here than the kids running Iraq. Disappointing. Gnothi Sueton.
Incidently, this all started on the discussion page, I don't think I have ever touched an article directly. Wblakesx02:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)wblakesx ( pity more people haven't read my namesake-sx )
I found a back door to my talk page. Dl sounds al calm and reason on this admin page, compare what Was on my talk page till it was wiped:
Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered vandalism. If you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you. Danny Lilithborne00:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not sympathetic. This is an encyclopedia, not a theology discussion forum. If you want to air personal grievances with the Jewish faith, there are places on the Internet you can do that. On Misplaced Pages, it is not appropriate. Danny Lilithborne01:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The above is a load of thin skinned, small minded crapulence. My SERIOUS OFFENCE was to reply top the links LEFT ON MY PAGE ( there is no talk page on at least the first nasty admin, neither a page search, nor a wiki search turned one up ). There was nothing of vandal in my post. I posted "your God my Satan" on the God discussion page, which is well understood by those with serious interest, education, and intelligence. Not exactly a koan, it was none the less meant to Stimulate thinkers. Also, I didn't have time to discuss the Gnostics and others beliefs that the Old Testement God is the Demiurge, a persona =to Satan, and I said Jews intesd of followers of the old testement ( seems anything resemling criticism of ******* even saying the jews, is damnable while it is quite ok to criticise almost any other group! OH the lunacy in the world!). For the rest, I am not expert in this rather large rule set and rather than a polite redirect I have been threatened with banning'
The first page of the user's guide says "be bold", methinks boldness to some of these faux adminitrators would be such things as taking a smell of a can of beer. I am Very disappoited but I suppose I can only blame myself for being very surprised.
Oh, and I "aired my 'dirty laundry'" by asking for help!!!! Methinks there's a student of Karl Rove running things here, now. Unreal the idiocy passing as lofty. It's a sadomaso thing.
[ Saved from dispute res page for future ref:
"Label the comment neutrally but do not sign and do not use names (type 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC), which gives only a timestamp)....". don't know if I understand this bit? My problems can be picked up at my user talk page, wblakesx talk. I have never modified an article itself, and have never had any problems before. I have found incivility and presumtions, from some admins, of bad faith where none existed. After removing the objected to material have "been left hanging in the air". I replied to links left on my talk page and have been threated for vandalism and serious vandalism. . I am here for procedural reasons only, feedback to avoid runaway system destruction ( info theory and electronics metaphor, also applied in a work called "The Nerves of Government" governance. I firmly believe I have met some admins who are not ethically ot tempermentally up to the job. I don't have a lot of time presently to deal with this but would like to see Wiki not taken by little tyrants. But who cares?Wblakesx 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)];
well who cares, busy busy busy
Second opinion needed
Would someone mind looking at this? I think that User:Aaronjonesinsocal and User:24.72.202.130 are the same person, violating 3RR. Normally I wouldn't take this here, but I'm more concerned by the content he insists on adding than by the 3RR violation. IMHO, if anyone from the organisation in question sees it their lawyers will go into overdrive. Luckily, looking at the IP's contribs, it looks like it's static. I'll give him a final warning, and if he adds the material again, I'll ask for a block. Sound appropriate? yandman14:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that he seems to be the same person as the IP, as they are putting in the same content with the same misspellings. So you can get him on 3RR if he keeps going.... or he can get you similarly. This seems to be a content dispute rather than vandalism, so you aren't immune from 3RR either, and shouldn't call it vandalism on his talk page. (User talk:Aaronjonesinsocal). I suggest a compromise, rather than just reverting. You may be right that the source only mentions flag burning, not violence, but in your reversion, you took out the whole thing out completely, that's a bit much. At least leave in the stuff backed by the source. AnonEMouse15:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot to give precisions: of the three sources, 2 are youtube videos, and while the other source is (nearly) reliable, the author of the paragraph grossly misrepresents it, ignoring the content of the entire article (that supports the mexicans) and focusing on one image of someone holding a flag with their fist inside it (no flames). I deleted the entire section because there was already a criticism section that stated the facts: right wing groups have criticised the Mexica movement. 3RR doesn't apply to potentially libelous material, and IMHO this is. yandman15:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Unbelievable. He just vandalized both my user AND talk pages (blanked everything) and replaced it with some blurb about being a group of lawyers or something Hkelkar23:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
His first edits requried an explanation: "don't replace the whole article with your own stuff". After that, it was either a mistake, or vandalism. If it obvious vandalism continues, report to WP:AIV. Patstuart03:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Chick Bowen has blocked Godblessindia indefinitely. All their edits either removed sources and inserted their own POV and when they were warned, they went on to vandalize a userpage. Clearly an abusive user. If not for that, I would've blocked them for the username. Don't use religious figures in your username, period. - Mgm|09:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What the targets all have in common is we strongly protested Stevewk who tried repeatedly to remove all the information about the Civil War from the Abraham Lincoln article. Stevewk was given a 3R suspension but may be using sockpuppets to hit editors.
Thus he may be using 70.110.174.121 151.197.233.65 70.110.155.238 70.110.174.121 etc. Rjensen23:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have used the subject article Talk page, the Individuals' Talk pages, the Admn. Noticeboard, but with no real attention paid to the issue.
There are a group of editors, including Administrators that are reverting good-faith reliably sourced information, without discussion, in violation of the spirit of Misplaced Pages. This is an allied attempt at gaming the system, and a disgraceful display of conduct.
1st revert 20 Novmeber
2nd revert: 20 November
3rd Revert: 20 November
4th Revert: 20 November
5th Revert: 21 November
6th Revert: 22 November
7th Revert: 22 November
The article is basically on lock-down due to an allied group that is violating the spirit of WP:OWN. Please look at all my work that was deleted, as all the reverts involved new information for the article. Disgraceful.
Can someone who is not INVOLVED or allied to this group please review? This POV oriented group of allies is not interested in collaborating in good-faith and the mass reverts without any discussion illustrate this clearly. I believe they are trying to get me to quit Misplaced Pages out of frustration, that is my honest opinion of this. Can a group of allied editors take over an article, and block all information they dislike? Please review the full content of these reverts tha include whole new paragraphs and sourced info, it's disgraceful conduct. Thanks.Kiyosaki06:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Kiyosaki, this is a content dispute which does not require administrative attention, nor does it concern the use of administrative tools. In this situation the appropriate course of action is to engage in dispute resolution. --bainer (talk) 06:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
1) Reverting is used primarily for fighting vandalism, or anything very similar to the effects of vandalism.
2) "Rollbacks should be used with caution and restraint, in part because they leave no explanation for the revert in the edit summary. Reverting a good-faith edit may therefore send the message that "I think your edit was no better than vandalism and doesn't deserve even the courtesy of an explanation." It is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor."
3) All the reverts above violate all the "Don'ts" from that same page.
Several of those samples weren't admin rollback. And, like Doc Tropics mentioned above, WP:RFC is where this sort of thing is reviewed. Shell07:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict)If a single editor were reverting your changes, it might violate 3RR which could be "actionable". These diffs don't seem to indicate violations of specific policies; just content disagreement and some behaviour issues. dispute resolution is really the proper venue for that. --Doc Tropics07:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Kiyosaki, your edits are usually disruptive, often poorly written, often poorly sourced, and often involve the deletion of good material simply because you don't like it. That is why you're being reverted. You've been doing little else for a month since you got here, mostly on one article, when you're not complaining on AN or AN/I, or being blocked for 3RR. It's also very obvious that you're not a new user, but you won't say what your other accounts are/were, which gives rise to the — possibly unfair but definitely justified — suspicion that you're a banned user. SlimVirgin07:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you were asked as an involved party to not comment. It's obvious I am a new user, I don't know how to "game the system" like you do. You work with allies to violate WP:OWN and limit properly cited, relevant material without explanation . Please stop attacking me and trying to discredit me, if anyone looks at the article's Talk page they can see through your lies. I edit in good-faith, I don't think you do at all. Perhaps you could review Help:Reverting and the entire section on "Dont's" in particular. The "Do's" says: "If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it." I have been doing the work, the research, you merely revert what you personally dislike.Kiyosaki07:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not for you to dictate who may comment here. You're not a new user. One of your first edits as Kyosaki (talk·contribs) was to warn someone about 3RR. I think you're someone who's been editing for a long time. I also think you're the sockpuppet of a banned user, and I have a feeling I know who. SlimVirgin09:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Kiyosaki, you asked for help and got some good advice; let me offer one last tidbit for your consideration...this would be a perfect time to drop this discussion and move on. You're not in the right place and you're not helping your cause. Really. --Doc Tropics07:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Kiyosaki, you might want to take a step back and review Misplaced Pages policies on civility and personal attacks. Other people have commented on your questions; if you believe there is a complex problem please use dispute resolution - nothing you've mentioned requires administrator intervention. Food for thought - numerous editors reverting your changes is usually a sign that you need to discuss your edits and work out the problems with them, not that there's a hidden conspiracy to control the article. Shell07:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately don't have time to investigate further, 3RR, AFD, or apply for protection on those. I'm doing what I'm hoping is the second best thing by bringing it up here. --user:Qviri21:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I tried reporting this user on WP:AIV but was told (through an edit summary that I had to search through the history to find) that he had "no final warning". However, I already told him that if he continued I'd report him, and he did continue. His images at least need to be deleted. Was I correct to take it here, or is there a better place? I would have thought AIV was appropriate, but it seems bogged down in bureaucracy. --NE222:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the orphan images and told him to provide sources and copyright information for the remaining ones. If he doesn't provide those, those images will be removed pretty soon. - Mgm|09:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Fact Finder (talk·contribs) is at it again. He's written comments on my user talk page falsely accusing me of deleting his comments when in fact the deletion was done by Bobet (talk·contribs), and consisted of reverting Fact Finder's edits to archived project and talk pages that weren't supposed to be forums for further comments. He's also made even wilder accusations in other comments, such as accusing Misplaced Pages editors and admins of sending computer viruses to his company. *Dan T.*01:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The user has been excessively disruptive in his determination to obscure or delete the word Ecopave wherever it is written (e.g. , , ; there is no credible explanation for this other than keeping the Google results for Ecopave "clean"
The user is incivil, e.g.
The user has responded to requests to cease disruption with aggression, denial and no change in behaviour
The user's Talk page currently contains a quite meritless personal attack on me: The real irony here is that Guy Chapman who is a Misplaced Pages administrator, appears to be running he's own spamming and PR campaign in Misplaced Pages by using 3 seperate IP addresses which are clearly designed to assist in bringing consensus into arguments against users who's article (ideology) is not in par with his - this is an absurd assertion. I did note that I use three separate static IPs, in response to Fact Finder's assertion that to use a static IP is "insane" - the fact that I edit from multiple locations, each with a static IP absolutely does not mean that I am in some way gaming the system, it simply means that most of the places where I edit have static IPs. Anyone who wants to register an RFCU is entirely welcome to do so. Frankly I don't have time to edit as other accounts as well!
All in all, I don't see much evidence that this user is here to build an encyclopaedia. I suggest giving them the bum's rush. Guy (Help!) 14:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
His initial block, as one of a series of socks on the Ecopave AfD, was perfectly valid. Since he was unblocked (on the kind-hearted theory that he'd try to be a productive editor) he's just trolled, edited other users' comments, made legal threats, attacked other users (including kind-hearted Guy, whose idea it was to unblock him in the first place), made the bad-faith speedies of Ecopave's competition Guy mentioned, and filled his talk page and others with increasingly paranoid rants about the army of sock-admins out to get him. While his silliness was confined to his talk page I was content to let him stew, but his renewed propensity to wage his pointless war elsewhere leads me to believe we've indulged his trolling long enough. His initial ban was valid, none of his (hundreds) of subsequent edits have been contributions to the encyclopedia, he's not interested in anything more than whining about his spam campaign being thwarted. Restore his block. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk14:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Very strange blanking activity going on at User:Rjensen
For last eight hours or so, his user page and talk page has been blanked by many different ip addresses (between the two pages 18 times in the 8 hours). I applied for semi-protection and was told the user should ask for protection himself. User seems to think he knows who's doing it, but am concerned about the very strange ip blanking. BusterD05:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the abuse has spread to a number of user and talk pages, I've given both of the involved ranges a brief block (anon-only, account creation allowed, what I think is a pretty friendly block message). 48 hours does the trick, I hope. Luna Santin07:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't help but notice while lurking from time to time that User:Snow Shoes (contributions) seems to be an obvious sock puppet of User:Thewolfstar. She is, however, acting a bit more clever. Moreover, what seems obvious to me might not be to the next person, and everybody deserves an initial benefit of the doubt. I'd just like to suggest that an admin familiar with this issue should keep an eye out. --AaronS05:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This user has been permanently banned from editing Misplaced Pages. However, this person has persisted in editing numerous pages across wikipedia simply by avoiding registering an account. Here are just some of the IP address that has been used in recent days by this same individual.
Dynamic IP (British Telecom). No point in blocking more than 24 hours at a time since he can change them faster than we can block them. Any new account he uses can be listed at WP:AIV. Explain that it's Leyasu and hopefully the admins patrolling there will be familiar enough with the situation to block (otherwise his edits look like a content dispute). Or you can list here I guess. Thatcher13112:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Felix Portier has uploaded copyright images Image:Women's fiel hockey chile vs australia.jpg, Image:Las leonas vs India.jpg (and others, but it's over these I've had most dealings wih him). I have listed them at WP:CP and informed him. I then removed the image links from the articles where he had inserted either of them: Field hockey and Las Leonas. He later amended the image licensing information slightly (still clearly non-compliant however) re-inserted the images into field hockey, and I then gave him 2 hours to remove them again, which he failed to do. So I reverted the addition. Overnight (UK-wise) he has attempted to claim that the images are logos (!) and again inserted them into the field hockey article, and also converted women's field hockey from a redirect into a stub primarily consisting of the copyvio images. I have again reverted the addition of the images - in both articles. I am not clear if his actions constitute vandalism, and hence if I'm covered by the exemptions to 3RR. It does appear that he may now be a bit more prepared to enter into dialogue (he has just left a message on my talk page about the women's field hockey article). I'd appreciate it if someone else could take a look at his actions (this is not the first time he's run into trouble over images before). David Underdown10:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The user appears to flout copyright rules. Uploads are from websites, all mistagged as either logo, or GFDL when it's clearly not free. I need help deleting all this stuff. - Mgm|12:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
THanks MGM. Could you or someone lese jsut clarify the situation on 3RR, reverting repeated addition of unfree images doesn't seem to be specifically covered by an exemption - would I be OK to carry on reverting the images if they get re-uploaded? I notice from your edits that i didn't actually manage to remove them from field hockey this morning anyway, I got side-tracked by the changes to Women's Field Hockey, and some constructive intervening edits on Field hockey and didn't get roud to tidying them up. David Underdown13:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
User Mikinthy blanking Talk page to remove warnings
Nothing that can be done I'm afraid. The templates were taken off because they were judged to be contrary to our policy on harassment. The best thing to do is to make sure your edit summaries say what level warning they're up to, that way a quick look at the history says it all. yandman13:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I just blocked MisterB4390 (talk·contribs) indefinitely. In the past 7 months, the user has created a vanity autobiography 6 times at Brandon Mathewson. The user has previously been warned not to recreate this page and had a blatant vandal warning on his talk. In addition to the block, I protected the article as a deleted page. Can I just get a review of this since this is one of my first significant blocks as an admin? Thanks, Metros23216:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Image change issues, unsourced and possible copyright violations
THEBLITZ1 (talk·contribs) has changed a large number of articles, mostly by replacing or adding images. A number of them are incompletely labelled and will be deleted, leaving a "hole" in the changed article, I'm not sure whether it's correct for me to revert those or wait for the image to expire. Others have been labelled as created by him, but of those, several appear to be copied from websites. I've reported a couple of them, but when I do, he games the system by removing the image from the article. It's very time consuming tracing the images, and trying to find where they really came from. A number of his edits have been reverted by me or others. I'm tempted to revert all of his changes. He's also generally disruptive and not co-operative, probably violating WP:CIVIL, including edit warring on Breast. He's been blocked for 24 hours, but I think the penalty needs to be more severe. --ArmadilloFromHell19:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a couple pictures, in particular Image:F22-R.jpg and Image:FB-2235.jpg are taken from F-16.net. Their piracy policy can be found at and does not allow for these pictures to be used in this way. I thought I would mention this here, since I have little time right now to post them at WP:PUI. -- moe.RON19:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I've blocked the rest of the socks on that list. Well spotted, SunStar, I'll have to start checking that log next time another of his sockpuppets comes calling. --Sam Blanning22:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It looks like the vandal latches on to current controversies - it may have been Exicornt then, but one of the sockpuppets today faked a message from Jimbo saying Homey was unbanned, and there have been others. --Sam Blanning00:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
And a further identical attack by User:Rancidity at 17:25, 20 November 2006. This vandal is apparently chosing user names close to my own in order to pursue his vendetta against me. Please help put a stop to this. RolandR22:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I've blocked all the name accounts above and semiprotected David Bukay against further IP vandalism. Your userpage was already s-protected. I have a feeling you probably haven't mentioned all the pages with IP vandalism problems; please do so here, and I hope somebody will s-protect them. I'm going to bed myself. Bishonen | talk02:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC).
I recently blocked this user for 24 hours after noticing these two personal attacks , . Bishonen then upped the block to a week and more personal attacks ensued after the blocks such as calling Bishonen a "facist" and Calton "sociopatic". Swedenborg's accomplishments here inlcude little more than incivil remarks, personal attacks, spam, edit warring, and attempts to solicit meatpuppets off site. Upon my review of Swedenborg's contributions I am inclined to extend the block to indefinite, but would like some other opinions first. DVD+ R/W19:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Hm. These edit summaries (), not to mention comments such as this, are pretty uncivil. Even assuming good faith, I see little evidence that this user really wants to have a constructive and enlightened discussion. I would support a longer block, but not sure about indef, as it seems there has been some provocation. Again doing my best to assume good faith, perhaps after the edit war dies down the disruption will improve. --Ginkgo10020:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Swedenborg losing his temper when blocked is a big deal, I wouldn't extend his block for such a thing as that. But the lack of constructive edits and the lack of comprehension of what the encyclopedia is for is extremely concerning. As for the edit war "dying down," edit warring is what he does; what makes you think it'll ever die down? Swedenborg seems convinced, from many comments, that he has a moral right to spam articles, that anyone thwarting him (such as Calton) is evil, and that any admin warning him (such as me) is Calton's evil sock. But there's no hurry about extending the block, as he just stormed off in indignation at the amount of evil in the place. I suggest we consider the indef issue when/if he and his edit war return. Bishonen | talk23:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC).
User:Davidcannon has twice recreated GetWiki, refusing to accept its AfD nomination or participate in the already ongoing deletion review. Admins must use deletion review to challenge AfD closures, same as everyone else. I have already redeleted it once per WP:CSD G4, whereupon he re-recreated it and threatened to continue wheel warring until he gets his way . Much as I would like to not waste other admins' time when policy is clear, someone other than me needs to be the one to respeedy this as I'm not going to be accused of wheel warring myself. --Sam Blanning20:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Article deleted again. Furthermore, I will block the user if he engages in wheel-warring. He is an admin and should know the rules. Joelito (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
He undeleted it twice, which is pretty bad form IMO, but I assume he's gotten the hint now. If for some crazy reason he were to undelete it again perhaps some action like that may be in order. Friday(talk)21:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll go through the proper channels this time. But is it acceptable to delete an article when there are 7 votes in favour and 7 against? Similar votes have always resulted in a "no consensus" verdict. David Cannon22:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Non Admin Comment - Given the fact that Davidcannon participated in the debate (supporting a keep decision) it seems to me like he should have asked an uninvolved admin to examine the case and perform (if deemed appropriate) the undelete. →Bobby←15:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Scratch that: he did the same thing with Editing Category:Ba, Fiji, wheel-warring with Nickptar and Mets501; rainbow.jpg which probably has a perfectly reasonable explanation; I'm not sure what this one is about . Probably nothing, but the category wheeling looks bad. Guy (Help!) 23:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll be more cautious in future. The other incidents you named : the Ba category incident was over a template that somebody else moved, breaking numerous double redirects without making any effort to redirect them. I didn't feel like fixing all the broken redirects myself, so I just undid his page move. When it became clear that he wouldn't accept my reversion of his move, I ended up accepting that, and fixed all the broken redirects - without any help from him. As for the image restoration: My memory is foggy, but if it's the event I think it was, that was tagged for deletion by somebody who had previously vandalized my user page (or at least, had the same IP address as somebody who had). But I can't remember the event accurately now, and thought that water was well under the bridge. Anyway, I think I have been a bit arrogant lately, and apologise. I will be more cautious, and will take care to follow the proper channels, from now on. David Cannon00:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just scratched part of the above comment. I was confusing that image issue with a separate event. At any rate, I regret my high-handed manner and will not make unilateral decisions in future. David Cannon10:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
New account
I am very concerned about the first edit to User talk:Stud24wi which I immediately deleted. It appears to be an attack containing personal info of the accused. I think this merits the attention of an admin, possibly the page needs to be deleted. Thanks. --Doc Tropics07:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
PS - I didn't even think of a "db" at the time. The content really freaked me out a bit and I just ran screaming to the nearest admin :) --Doc Tropics07:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yep, if you make a big enough donation, Thatcher will make 10x the salary ;) There's nothing wrong with posting issues like that here either - sometimes this page gets a bit clogged, so I just thought I'd mention the speedy idea as a backup. Shell07:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday, Myrtone made a series of unhelpful edits to warning templates, such as this one directing joke-minded users to Uncyclopedia and this one describing circumstances in which Misplaced Pages is censored in a template stating that Misplaced Pages is not censored. I don't know that talking is likely to produce a positive result, since he's been involved in problem edits to templates on numerous occasions in the past. Ideas? -Hit bull, win steak14:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
He obviously knows what he's doing, so a warning would not do much good. Since technically blocks aren't meant to be punitive I suppose all that could really be done is to issue a harsh warning. He has been blocked before for disruption, I remember clearly. – Chacor14:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd say this user needs a bit of a preventative timeout so that he'll cease using active templates as sandboxes and understand not to do so in the future. (→Netscott)14:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't appear that he's had any warnings left on his talk page, even after the flurry of these he did yesterday, for the record. Tony Fox(arf!)16:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Why would we warn him again? He's not an IP that might have changed hands, he's an account, and I'm sure he can remember why he was blocked three months ago. --Sam Blanning17:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Just pointing it out; it seemed odd to me that there was this discussion going on, but no indication that the user under discussion had been informed of it. Tony Fox(arf!)19:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Mytone is *still* editing templates disruptively today. I'm blocking for 24 hours to prevent the continuance of this behaviour. And warned him not to continue when the block expires. pschemp | talk17:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been keeping an eye on User:Myrtone86 for many weeks but never interacted. This is an editor that makes some useful contributions, but does not play well with others. Not at all. Somehow she skates on the thin edge of acceptability all the time. I'm still not sure if a block is warranted, but her activites definitely tend to be disruptive. Perhaps an official warning and a good "talking to" would be sufficient. At least it would establish some official presence on her talkpage for future reference. --Doc Tropics17:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not certain of gender, but this editor was once addressed as "Mr. Tone" and went to great lengths explaining the feminine history of the name. Color me confused. Doc Tropics19:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Heh, well the editor once tried to tell me that Wikipedians couldn't die (after one did) because "Wikipedian" is an office. I still haven't got the logic of that one. pschemp | talk23:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This user was warned before. Just because those warnings aren't still visible doesn't mean they don't apply. The block is short and contains another warning. That is sufficient. Certainly if he continue after the block expires, a longer block will be warranted, but talking to this one does little good, he's been around long enough to know better. This isn't a new user by any means. (Though there was a name change a while back if you are confused). pschemp | talk17:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
NOTE: I made my initial comments based on previous experience, without checking for more recent developments. This editor has indeed been warned and blocked repeatedly for a variety of disruptive activities. At the very least I think an admin should monitor this one closely, and further disruptions would certainly warrant longer blocks. --Doc Tropics20:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ashibaka unblocked claiming this user was being blocked punitively and without attempting to discuss the block with me, or posting here. I can't say I'm impressed with his actions considering he *always* seems to be the one unblocking, and the edits were clearly disruptive. pschemp | talk05:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
From the quick glance I saw there's nothing autobiographical or POVish going on. The edit did break naming conventions, so I left a message about that and redirect to help him out. - Mgm|08:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
My name is not offensive, as it is based on my school days with a teacher we used to call "Mr File" because he was thin and scaly. He always let me do what I want while constantly undermining the confidence of the other kids. Just like that Pink Floyd song. Well anyways, since "Mr. File" always gave me my way I was considered the teacher's pet. As a result,this is the ego shattering nickname my classmates gave me.P.O.F.00:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you didn't see it, but the pronunciation of your former username turns out to be the same as "pedophile." Or maybe because I have a dirty mind. ;-) --physicq (c) 00:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm curious about a newcomer whose first two edits are to ANI. Is this considered "typical behaviour" for a new account? Only, I'd been editing over a month before I even heard of ANI...I'm feeling like a slowpoke now. Doc Tropics00:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I understand (did the same myself actually). It just struck me as a bit odd that an editor with a questionable username makes their first edit an official complaint about a questionable username. I didn't mean to sound accusatory, but I do find it curious...Doc Tropics00:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Hehe well, let me just say that a checkuser linking the reporter and reportee herein wouldn't surprise me a lot ;) RadioKirk (u|t|c)01:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I suppose the blocking for personal attacking this user recieved from Blnguyen after calling me a racist yesterday didn't seem to get the message across. Now I'm being called a "shameful Muslim" and "punk". Go figure. (→Netscott)05:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The page about the Russian language needs to be looked at. Here is an excerpt.
"Russian is not actually a language. It was invented in 1943, by dr. Egor Stravinski, during the second world war. It was originally German propaganda. They invented a race of monsters just like the catholics, which they have been known to persecute for the past 6 million years. Russians do not actually exist, they're just a myth, designed to sdcare children. In 1979, Andreas discovered this but was crucified before he could tell anyone. However he wouldn't have been able to tell anyone, because he doesn't have any friends."
Koavf has managed to rack up eight distinct blocks for 3RR, and 2 more for other disruptive behavior(block log). Note also edits like this.. I just extended his latest 3RR block to idefinite, as I think the community's patience is likely exhausted by now. He has had many opportunities to mend his ways. Having recently returned from a week-long block, he started edit warring again almost immediately. His behavior is unmodified despite the volume of blocks he has received. Of course, I put this possibly-controversial action up for review. Dmcdevit·t08:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there's much possibility of recovery here. While I'm sure he's a nice guy, I don't think he has the temperament for editing here. I'm going to endorse this action, though sadly. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Hm, harsher than we usually are. But then perhaps we are usually too soft. Endorse with the proviso that we put a note on his talk page indicating that he will be considered for a 'last chance' if he indicates that he 'gets it' undertakes to behave.--Doc01:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I definitely agree that a long block of some sort is in order. Not sure if indefinite is needed, just yet (I'm not too familiar with the situation), but the long-term disruption and failure to learn from past transgressions is pretty worrisome. Luna Santin01:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think he deserves an indefinite block, but I think that some kind of length (maybe 3-6 month block) with the option of a "last chance" before indefinite would be appropriate. He has been a useful editor, and the disruption comes from edit warring rather than vandalism. - Francis Tyers·01:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Justin is a nice user but w/ a temperament. It is this same temperament that leads him to edit warring non-stop. If you'd ask me i'd say i'd prefer a definite ban from editing Morocco/Western Sahara related articles where he got most of the blocks. -- Szvest19:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a very strict block. I have edited on the Western Sahara articles before and I think that Kovaf has been struggling with some users who only have the aim to put certain viewpoints on Misplaced Pages. I'm not convinced by his neutrality entirely either, but I think the articles could become very unbalanced and that we would lose a valued contributor if he were indefinately blocked.
A block of a much shorter duration should be enforced here - 1 month, 2 maximum. I definately don't think he should be blocked from editing Western Sahara/SADR aritcles (but might support a block from aritcles on Morocco). --Robdurbar16:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I don’t want to interfere in your discussion guys but Robdurbar’s remarks justifying Kovaf’s behavior as just a "a struggle with some users" oblige me to do so. I think this is simply unfair from an admin.
There are reasons why Koavf has been blocked (no need to list them again) and this has nothing to do with any "other users". Trying to Justify his behaviour in this way is simply wrong.
The unbalance of the topic is an other wrong argument. He had the chance to cooperate with all and he clearly did not. Now there is a real chance that the topics will be more balanced and the atmosphere among the editors more co-operative and peaceful. All he was doing is (mis-) using Misplaced Pages for a platform to fight for the independence of a disputed territory and discouraging others with his obsessive reverts.
There are rules, and they apply for all, so remember which message you will give if you unblock this user; it's like telling everybody "ok, just continue with your edit-warring and reverts, you’ll always find a nice admin to defend and unblock you."
User Koavf has been reverting and edit-warring on many articles, and especially on Western Sahara related. Normal when he declares in his user page "I try to particularly represent the interests of truth and the Sahrawis of Western Sahara (SADR).", and on Wikime that "I will do my darndest to free Western Sahara". His talk page and contributions show that he resorts to personal attacks, and has trouble issues with a large number of users on a wide range of articles. After coming form every block, he immediately started by reverting all the changes done in his absence, even the articles he was blocked for. Short period blocks seem to "only make him bitter" as he made it clear. Koavf has not shown any change after all the successive blocks. He misuses AWB for increasing edit counts at the price of creating confusion, although he was warned and blocked for it.
As to Robdurbar's comment, I think that Koavf has made the articles related to WS very unbalanced, and in his absence you are urged to watch if the "some users" commit the same mistakes as Koavf or are the articles becoming balanced by giving both views of the WS conflict.
An indefinite block, or at least (as Francis suggested) a 6-month block after which a "last chance" is given to him to show he changed, otherwise 3RR loses its purpose and becomes a short vacation from Misplaced Pages before one returns to resume reverting and edit-warring. --A Jalil00:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to infer any bias from most users - including wikima - though I hope he would accept that he, like us all, has some sort of inherent bias. With there being so few contributors to Western Sahara pages, I don't think we can afford to lose Koavf. I appreciate this ban is over conduct, not content, but when banning we do need to consider what a user has contributed to Misplaced Pages. Equally, I agree, that koavd's contributions have been far from neutral but they have been in good faith. Can we agree to at least reduce this from an indefinate ban? --Robdurbar09:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There appears to be a fairly even split so far between endorsing and not-endorsing, is 50% sufficient for an indef ban to be upheld? - Francis Tyers·11:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I've only had bad experiences with Koavf. When things haven't gone his way, he has tended to run off to an admin, which has backfired on him each time (example 1, example 2). Lifting the block would be a bad move, in my opinion, which I'm sure will be proven if it happens. Several of his past blocks were reduced in length, only for him to pick up where he left off, which shows he disregards other people's good faith towards him. - Dudesleeper15:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a rather difficult question, as he's mostly editting in territory which is *very* prone to POV-pushing. I'm fairly certain he has done it on occasion, too, and he's certainly revert-warred, but an indefinite block seems a bit harsh... Apart from all this, someone neutral should take a good look at all the Western-Sahara-related articles, as almost all of them contain either a pro-independence or a pro-Morocco POV. —Nightstallion(?)18:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Francis, many others and me have been doing just that. We had experienced a very lenghty and hot debate at Talk:Morocco recently and i am sorry to say that among around a dozen of participants, only Justin was the most tendious. The participants had reached a concensus but Justin kept arguing against that. This is what makes Justin's case a bit torn. On one side, we need to keep all the articles free of POV and on the other side, we need no tendious editing and edit warring.
However, as i am not for a permablock, i'd still suggest a ban from editing Morocco/WS related articles as his POV pushing has reached limits. Szvest18:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
As Fayssal said, I would also oppose a permanent block. Koavf is an obstinate user regarding matters relating to his personal views but he has shown willingness to follow dispute resolution procedures. I know this is not the point but Koavf truely believes he's doing the right thing most of the time. Regarding a topic ban or a revert parole, these matters would have to be decided by ArbCom. If anyone wants to take this to arbitration, I am more than happy to express my views on the issue. Personally, I feel a bit guilty as I was informally mediating on the WS/Morocco articles but eventually left these aside because time restrains. Koavf has been with us for long enough to deserve a proper arbitration process instead of a fast-track community ban. Regards, Asterion18:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Those opposing a permanent block are doing it out of good faith and kindness rather than out of rational and reality. This is a very clear case of someone for whom 3RR means nothing, blocks mean nothing, and edit-warring is a style.
He has proven it again and again and again. There is no hope at all that he will change. I am quite sure many users have been indef blocked for much less than Koavf's record, and if this case were to end in a no-indef ban, it will serve as an argument for warring-editors, and as a blatant failure to enforce Misplaced Pages's most basic rules.--A Jalil21:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Considering you have been here for under 3 months, I find it hard to believe that you've seen enough of Justin to make that call. Furthermore you have edit warred from the opposite POV to him. It is in your interests for him to have an indefinite block. Hardly the right person to be commenting on this. - Francis Tyers·18:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If three months is a short period, I have actually seen during it koavf racking up so many blocks, using aggressive language, and disregarding Misplaced Pages's most basic rules, I have seen him promising admins he will obey by the rules but did not hold his word. I have seen 3RR losing its meaning in his case. A bad example for newcomers, like me, Isn't it?. Moreover, you can "see" all one's history of talk and contribs, even if you've been for just one week. So, one's opinion is not weakened (nor strengthened) by how long he/she has been on Misplaced Pages. You can't help Koavf by trying to redirect attention from his unjustifiable abusive behavior to other users, it is an insult to the admins' intelligence. You (Francis) have been recently blocked for edit-warring. As to my editing on WS, Koavf has reverted me , and would revert you , and everyone who writes anything that does not go his way. Is it enough that I support the WS articles to be filtered from POV by neutral editors (like you), as has been suggested above?.--A Jalil08:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Koavf is currently a problem editor, but not a vandal. I suggest a long block to give him a chance to mellow out, but not an indefinite block. —MichaelZ. 2006-11-14 16:16 Z
I'd agree with that. He has put a lot of time into editing up until now, so I wouldn't want to see all that negated by an indefinite ban. A time-out would suffice, in which time he'll hopefully expand his horizons. - Dudesleeper17:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
From what I can see now, the topic of Western Sahara for instance is like recovering in his absence, already. There is a sort of peace coming back and the atmosphere is likely to become cooperative and productive again.
I would prefer to see more people join and also feel encouraged to stay longer, than only koavf “owning” the pages and pushing others away with his possessive way.
His obsessive, always instant and systematic reverts and his extreme edit-warring discourage anyone who wants to do the tiniest change that does not fit his POV.
He certainly edited a lot (may be sometimes too much), but all his edits and article creations are POV and propaganda and it takes others always a huge effort to overcome his edit-warring and reverts in order to balance.
Misplaced Pages is not about quantity. Articles that are shorter, neutral, concise, let say encyclopaedic, have much more value than long stories that are nothing than a fight in favour of an ideological organisation and against a country that is seen as enemy of this organisation.
This sort of behaviour clearly damages the topic areas in question and it damages Misplaced Pages as a whole.
He had many chances but he just ignored all and he didn’t care about using one single of them.
It’s time now to protect Misplaced Pages and these topics and for their sake I would plead for keeping the indefinite ban.
Try not to make it a personal vendetta against him. His misgivings are clear to those who care to look. The admins will act as they see appropriate. - Dudesleeper00:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
"Koavf is currently a problem editor, but not a vandal" - I think this describes the situation best, thanks Mzajac. This is why I think an idefinate block is counter-productive and a long-but-not indefinate one could 'solve' the problem. Of course, any user - myself included -who is arguing for a long-but-not-indefinate would be happy to endorse a full block if his bevahiour did not improve upon return. --Robdurbar11:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Sounds fair enough to me. But i'd prefer that we agree on what problems we are refering to when we say a "problem editor". Are there many problems? Is there a particular one? I say this because i know for some of us or even for Justin, this may be debatable and could lead us to the same situation if he is back. Could we be more concise? Szvest ····> 13:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Dude, nothing personal, and I am most serious about it.
Rob, of course we are talking about a problematic editor and not a case of vandalism.
Koavf had already received the warning of an indef ban when he was blocked for a week and he ignored it.
I agree with the above. The indefinite block should remain permanent. No amount of reasoning or disciplinary action has made Koavf alter his behavior, even if some of his contributions are worthy. BGC12:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Personally I believe Koavf can still be of help to this project, and would agree with Nightstallion's idea of a short block. Probably the best way to resolve the problems concerning Koavf would be to put him on a revert-parole; but since this can be done only by the ArbCom, maybe we should bring Koavf to the arbcom.--Aldux15:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be reminded that user Koavf was warned by admin William M. Connolley, when he blocked him for a week, that in case he continues edit-warring and reverting he will be blocked indefinitely ], but that warning had no effect on him.--A Jalil22:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I may be late for this, and I'm not really into how the process works, but I would be very disappointed if Koavf gets a full-time, all-time, permanent block. As someone said above, his breaches of Misplaced Pages rules are almost all the result of a single POV battle, where I agree he has been playing rough at times, but he has hardly been the only one to do so. It has been about him trying to fend off Moroccan editors Wikima and A. Jalil, who have for a long time worked in tandem trying to change the tone of Western Sahara-related articles (for better or worse, that's up to anyone to judge). Tellingly, they're both arguing for an indefinite ban above. Perhaps equally tellingly, I'm arguing against it: I haven't edited much lately, but I was generally on Koavf's side in those same battles. So I realize I'm not necessarily more or less credible than his opponents, as I've been part of the same battle.
Now, with that openly declared, I think Koavf should get a second chance, not because we've generally (not always) been on the same side on that one topic, but for the following reasons:
His edits have been in the grey zone, and he has broken 3RR. But his editing hasn't been malicious in the way I would expect is needed for an indefinite block. He's tried to stick to the rules, and I can't imagine he willingly broke 3RR -- that would just be stupid. There should be a sanction for failing to notice it repeatedly, but come on ... an indefinite ban for scraping up a handful of 3RR breaches over some thousands of edits and tens of edit wars?
Koavf has edited a myriad subjects apart from Western Sahara (something, I may add, which isn't the case with his WS opponents, who are clearly here on a mission), and has made a gazillion edits over a very long period of time. Apart from a good job expanding various odd topics, he has also done a lot of cleaning-up on his free-time, systematizing articles and correcting punctuation etc, which I think shows that he's no single-topic POV pusher: he's in fact a prolific and very serious editor who has unfortunately during this time also dirtied his hands in a few nasty, mostly interrelated, edit wars.
Koavf has made a zillion edits of the sort of blanket changing China to People's Republic of China, (or Russia to Russian Federation) without careful checking that the change was appropriate in context. I spent some time cleaning up after his messes on my watchlist, and he is utterly unrepentant of that behavior, too. I'm happy to see him blocked for that behavior. (Incidentally, I've not been a aprt of the Western Sahara edit wars; I haven't even read the article(s) in question.) Argyriou(talk)19:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
On Western Sahara specifically, he has done a great job, even if at times his opinions shine through. It's mostly thanks to him that this topic is so well-covered, and he's done a tremendous work filling gaps and editing non-political articles in the periphery of that conflict: not just fighting the battle over flags and sovereignty. He was working diligently and, for the most time, with no apparent bias, on the subject long before these battles even started, and I think it would be a shame to see him blocked after having put all that effort into it.
Well, those are my views. I do have a history in this battle, that's no secret, but hold that against me: not against him. Ciao. Arre22:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Arre,
What you are saying is "mea culpa, the others are guilty". As I don't handle the art of telling something by pretending to say the opposit I will answer you in a strait way.
You accusation against Jalil and me having a "mission" is grave and baseless. Truly, one can say that you and koavf have a mission in the Western Sahara subject. Koavf had defined this himself for instance when saying he tries "to particularly represent the interests of truth and the Sahrawis of Western Sahara (SADR)." He even "spoke at the United Nations' on the situation in Western Sahara" and everyone knows that he is "fanatic" about the independence of the territory. And based on what I read from you in discussion I can confidently say that you are an activist for the same cause who has visited the so called "Free Zone" and probaly Tindouf as well and who has met with people like Aminatou Haidar etc..
What you do togther with koavf is a clear abuse of Misplaced Pages for your political mission and aim.
There is almost no article on Western Sahara in which you have not been involved togther with koavf, one supporting the other. All your versions of these articles reflect the polisario political and ideological position and are written to fight Morocco in Western Sahara. These articles only become somewhat balanced when other people have made a huuuge effort to overcome your intransigence and koavf's systematic reverts and agressivities before changing. I have the feeling most of them just hate the topic after this, feel discouraged and leave.
Together with him you build a constant tandem in this topic (and to a certain extent in the Morocco topic as well). Both of you, obsessive activists for the independence of the Sahara, made all topics on Western Sahara look just like a Polisario made web site.
This kind of practice has generally severely damaged Misplaced Pages.
You can't plead for the xth chance for kovf as his he had already and his block log seems to be full. As you can clearly read koavf had been blocked several times before this, not only on the topic of Western Sahara and not only because of Jalil and me. Koavf has problems with many other users and in other topics as well. Some of them have given their opinion here. In the topic of Western Sahara other users (Daryou, SteveLo, Khalid Hassani etc.) had to face the extreme intransigence of Koavf enjoying your ideological support.
The support you provided to koavf has been systematic and you could become aggressive, using vulgar words and personal attacks against others who don’t share you POV (in both links just search the f** word).
Koavf has indeed been doing much effort on the WS topic, incl. spelling corrections etc., but what you don’t tell is that he was permanently present, like a guard to instantly and systematically reverted anyone who dared to touch any of the Western Sahara pages in a manner he didn't like. He dealth with Western Sahara as if it was his little garden, his property.
As I state above, accuracy and neutrality have more priority in an encycloaedia than just quantity. A just large nr of edits is meaningless or even negative when they are all POV and ideological propaganda. It does not necessarily matter how much people write or edit, but it does matter how they do it. It's better to not handle a topic at all than to present it in such a biased and propaganda manner like you do togther with koavf.
I din't have the intention to to write off-topic, but I simply felt it's my right to answer you.
Despite my efforts to dialogate with User:Thulean and try to be constructive with the infamous disputed article White people (see talk page and mediation page, and despite having only one single warning (and a totally clean historial before this awful conflict), I have been blocked by administrator User:Shell Kinney on very unclear grounds.
She wrote (sounds very emphatic but there are no grounds):
You've been asked multiple times by many people to stop being incivil, stop attacking other editors and especially to stop harassing Thulean. Unfortunately you've now continued this both in the mediation and on my talk page. I've given you a short block - please stop the behavior and try to approach the mediation in a civil manner - without attacking and belittling other editors whom you disagree with. Shell babelfish 20:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can tell (there's no PAIN case, no diffs, no nothing) she could have been decided that I was making a persona attack on the following items (all based on what is written in her talk page)
1. My comment inside a large discussion (almost unilateral teaching by my side) on European genetics (as per the diff provided by Thulean in Shell's talk page) that read:
Aditionally, I think you should check this map, from a previously sourced paper, where it does make a rather conclusive division between Neolithic (Near Eastern) and Paleolithic (Basque) ancestry. It's probably better than going around Cavalli-Sforza's maps, as it is a much more modern paper.
2. My attempt of protest at his abuse on this kind of accusations that read:
LOL - that's not an attack. I'm just saying that you really have no clear idea of where your ancestors may ultimately be from (and this is only in realtion with European genetics, a discussion on which you have shown very poor understanding).
Stop whinning for everything (this might be a PA, who knows?). --Sugaar 13:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC) (diff)
So where is the personal attack? I wonder. There's no such thing anywhere.
I am a little angry and sarcastic, maybe. But there's not a single personal attack in all those sentences (nor in anything I've written in a good while).
There are also no such repeated warnings that Shell talks about. I just have only one warning from Shell herself and surely two dozens of pseudo-warnings (harassment) by Thulean. Nobody else has said anything about my behaviour, much less in a formal manner.
The first comment must be contextualized in a longer debate between Thulean and I on European genetics (Talk:White people#Just for the record), where Thulean made also despective comments like:
LOL. By your "logic", the "European genome" is found mostly in Saudi Arabia...I dont want to dignify your other claims with more responses but I suggest you to read about this subject before making absurd claims.
What part of this can't you get into your head?
And I was patiently replying in length, providing sources and all that can be done to reach an understanding, exposing carefully my understanding (based in many genetic studies) that European and West Asian genomes are strongly linked and that is dificult to find what is specifically European if anything...
He just made those short disdainful claims, no sources, no ideas... but specially no constructive attitude at all.
And then I bring up another source that suggests that Scandinavians are 50% West Asians and make that comment about playing with genealogies and the next I know is that he's writing to Shell to complain.
I protest and what do I get? A block.
...
I request:
1. To find out wether any of those comments actually constitutes a PA and why. I just don't see it. I was trying to be pedagogical and hoping he might learn something of all this mess.
2. If nothing is found that the block is reverted retroactively, just for the record.
3. To recuse permanently Shell Kinney from any future case that I may be accused of. At this point I have not the slightest trust in her ability or neutrality and I am doubting seriously of her good will.
...
Additionally I have disconnected myself from the White people article, discussion and mediation. This has crossed all red lines and I just can't bear this anymore. The article is a collective responsability of Misplaced Pages (that means in abstract: all wikipedians) and I have done much more than my share, getting as reward only an unbearable witch-hunt and some scars that will take some time to heal.
And I am not the only one, I believe. This one-sideness of Shell Kinney is causing problems to all wikipedians of good will, as far as I can see. Soon that article will have only one editor and that one will be Thulean (and maybe ideologically akin Dark Tichondrias too). I have done what I could but I can't keep that push if the Wikibureaucracy, impersonated as Shell Kinney, is so hostile against me and other veteran serious editors. --Sugaar07:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I've edited slightly so you can see better where the request is. The first part is basically explainatory for unaware admins to understand what happened (as far as I can understand it myself) --Sugaar08:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Sugaar, on first inspection of your pages, the mediation, and Shell's talk page, Shell is right that you have been crossing the line into personal attacks. You seem to be extremely resistant to hearing that, but please listen: it's not ok to attack people on Misplaced Pages. What you're doing is beyond the limits of what the community feels are ok. The things that the people you're arguing with are doing aren't going across the line. Please, calm down, and listen to people in the mediation and elsewhere. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert07:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Where is the PA? I am not attacking anyone, at least not since the warning.
And I'm not getting again in that rat-trap of White people article. I fell in that by accident and is not my area of interest. If it is of your interest, you can join the discussion and the mediation yourself and feel in first person how it is like. --Sugaar07:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I think there's no PA anywhere. But more important: there are not the many warnings that Shell claims. I have just one warning and, as far as I can tell, I have not just not repeated the error but also tried to be as constructive as possible (with no results but disdainful comments and this unjustified block).
Block is according to WP:NPA a measure against extreme cases:
In extreme cases, an attacker may be blocked under the "disruption" clause of the blocking policy, though the practice is almost always controversial.
Obviously there's no such grounds in this case and all the procedure is highly irregular and unclear.
I am also worried about ALWAYS being judged by the same administrator and precisely by the one who seems most heavily biased against me. I hope not to get involved in any more PAIN cases now that I have detached myself from the conflictive article but you never know and, just in case, I request that the next time the administrator judging my hypothetical case is someone different. I think it's a very reasonable request. --Sugaar08:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I was the admin who declined your unblock request. I'd say that comparing someone to a skinhead ("like the Jewish skinhead of the BBC article, you may get burnt") is a personal attack. I for one would have been quite offended, had I been the subject of that comment. At the very least, it's a serious breach of civility, especially in a content dispute in such a contentious article as white people. Additionally, you actively mock your opponent's knowledge of genetics in your second comment, and even admit that it may be a personal attack. That right there shows me that you know exactly what a personal attack is, and that you know when you're making one. For my part as a neutral, uninvolved party, (I don't think I've ever edited white people in my life) I must support the (now-long-expired) block. ♠PMC♠ 17:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't a PA and that's why I feel that this is a witch hunt. It wasn't meant to compare with an skinhead but I mentioned the case earlier in the conversation (what seemed funny to Thulean, as he replied with one "LOL") and I thought the comparison was appropiate not because I may think this or that about his ideology but because the skinhead that found out that he was Jewish seemed a good comparison for a person who is claiming that Scandinavia has no West Asian heritage (my documentation suggested it is c. 50%), hence the "Nordic Semitic" irony.
You can't decontextualize the phrase in such manner. It's absolutely out of place.
Also you said that my unblock request was wrong because "I had many warnings" what is not true. Check it. --Sugaar23:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Its very disappointing to see this come up again. When Sugaar was first calling Thulean a nazi, he opened an Arb case, tried mediation and finally posted here complaining because I had warned him. He was told every place he went that it was a personal attack; he continued the attacks on the mediation page and was warned there by the mediator. He refuses to accept that warnings from the aggrieved party are valid as he has many of those as well. I spent more than a week discussing personal attacks and civility in great detail with Sugaar and gave him many ideas of how he could avoid this problem in the future. He is now following Thulean around and making belittling and rude comments where ever he goes - I hope the two agree to stay away from each other since they cannot work together. Shell18:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to discuss with Shell. She has shown to be strongly one-sided and I doubt her sincerity and good-will at this point. I ask Shell to recuse herself from any further cases involving me, LSLM or Thulean, or anything related with the problematic article. If I can recuse her, I do it.
Still, just for the record:
I have not persecuted Thulean anywhere. I had Shell's talk page watched, as it activates as such when you write in it. So I protested his irregular pseudo-PAIN demand. Was it rude or just somewhat sarcastic? I sadly can't trust Thulean or Shell. And it is not a PA in any case, much less an extreme case that requires a block.
I opened the ArbCom because I got confused on what procedure to follow and misread Shell re. mediation. Later I admitted she was partly right and retrieved the case myself. We went to mediation as per her suggestion and the case was rejected as pertaining to ANI. I posted here and some administrators clarified my doubts. Fine: case closed (I hoped).
Andronico (the mediator) only said that Shell's only warn was right regarding the PAIN, something I disputed then. He did not warn me for any other thing but the same that she did. So it's not any additional warning in any case. Just that he agreed with Shell then.
The warnings from Thulean are as valid as any warnings I could post in his talk page. I am not so easily "offended" as he is, so I have not intiated any sort of action against him nor ever visitied his user page. I don't think that what he's doing is right and I don't want to fall to the same type of lawyering harassment. It would be against my own feeling of dignity and good will. Anyhow, Thulean's "warnings" are just his personal opinion and I consider most of them insulting and harassing. They are not official nor any thing of the like.
I don't agree with Thulean in almost anything, no matter how hard I try. But I have decided for my own emotional and mental health to disconnect permanently from that article, that was what Thulean wanted from the beginning anyhow. I hope not to find that element ever again in my life... but you never know. As he feels his tactics are successful, he may want to expand his area of action and we may find each other in any other article. I may also be unlucky enough to meet with someone else with his same more than dubious methods, or any other case, like I myself being attacked by another user, as happened in the past once and was solved to my total satisfaction and with remarks of having managed the case very well by the involved administrators. I believe that would Shell have to manage any other case involving me she would have a clear.
Finally I find quite offensive the a priori attitude of some administrators that read: "this user has a warn" and seem to understand "he's systematically problematic", without even looking at his/her historial, that in my case was perfectly clean until I stumbled with that element and his favorite administrator.
If the case is not reviewed, next time (hopefully never) they may say: "this user has a block: he's a convicted dangerous criminal", no matter I never had a proper trial. As blocks are only suppossed to be issued in very extreme cases, they could even have some reason to think so in principle, and that's why I am requesting that the case is throughtly reviewed to see if the alleged personal attacks actually constitute reason for a block. What I think is clearly abusive interpretation of the policy and dangerous abuse of power. --Sugaar23:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Sugaar, it's this simple: You have to abide by our community standards, as interpreted by us, or you're going to get blocked for abusing people. You don't set our standards - we do. You're welcome to disagree in principle, but how you act will be judged by our interpretations.
You came here to complain, and you've got a number of admins and editors telling you that you're in the wrong. If you don't listen, your future here at Misplaced Pages is going to be short.
Shell seems to have this about right. Sugaar, we are supposed to bend over backwards to be civil here, not engage in uncivil discourse then Wikilawyer about whether it technically crosses the line into personal attacks. Just treat other editors with courtesy and you won't keep getting into trouble. Metamagician300023:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
You also as administrators, maybe more than anyone else have to abide by our community standards. And it's clear that, if there was any fault (what I question strongly), it wasn't such a severe case as to generate a block. Read WP:NPA please:
In extreme cases, an attacker may be blocked under the "disruption" clause of the blocking policy, though the practice is almost always controversial.
Can you point out which is the personal attack(s) at all and, if it exists (that I deny), why is it so extreme as to justify a block?
Else, can you proceed with the review, as requested? Thanks.
Note 1: my impression is that you're just backing each other (out of mere corporative solidarity maybe) without putting forward anything that justifies the application of such clause.
Note 2: I have never rejected the norms of Misplaced Pages, I may have violated them out of ignorance and maybe arrogance in the past, not in this case, but I accept that I must abide by them. Can you do the same and apply the policy correct and justly without prejudice against me? That's what we, the users of Misplaced Pages, expect from you: fairness and justice. Nothing more but nothing less. --Sugaar01:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Aditionally, I don't mean to "wikilawyer". I just mean justice. I believe that the one wikilawyering was Thulean and that he does have bad faith whatever you may think. The common of us mortals has not the steel nerves he has to be so calculating.
I have 100% dropped any relation with the article in question voluntarily. I am not risking a heart attack for that. But I believe someone should investigate a little and find that Sugaar has a totally clean historial before this nasty problematic, two years editing Misplaced Pages productively (I don't know how many edits I may have but must be over the thousand or more), not a single conflict other than the typical POV riff-raffs (and not many). I am not any extreme case and your severity and lack of imparciality seems totally out of place.
I think honestly that some among you should step forward and try to see my point of view. I am no wikilawyerist. I have only filed a single RFI before this awful situation, I took attacks and hostility for one month before doing it, and that single case was ruled in my favor with all blessings (he did got a block, but only after repeated vandalism). I have never ever been accussed of anything by anyone before Thulean stepped in out of nowhere. So what's the problem?
For you I am not (apparently) but just another quasi-anonymous troublemaker. But I had a completely clean and productive historial and your lack of fairness and seriousness in investigating the case is dirtying it.
And some among you even dare to make threats, without even studying my appeal. This is total madness. I have no other name for this. --Sugaar02:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Just let it go, Sugaar. You were blocked for a mere 6 hours over an article that you've repeatedly said you're not going to edit anymore. The block is done. Your relationship with the article is done. A bevy of respected editors has told you you're in breach of civility. Just let it go. ♠PMC♠ 03:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't let it go. I would be failing to my duty as wikipedian if I would allow administrators to abuse the policy.
Personally this doesn't feel nice but it is not my feelings what are at stake. When administrators here pointed out what I had done wrong previously and how it was a clear violation of NPA I accepted and tried to redirect my efforts in a constructive way despite the huge difficulties.
But now is not my fault. I have been punished for non-existent faults and beyond all measure (as per NPA). It is somebody else's fault (no need to name, we all know) and it is this person and collectivelly the administrators of Misplaced Pages who must correct the wrong.
I wish I knew what would satisfy you. Many different people have come along and given there opinions during this saga, but that doesn't seem to sway you. Please read the blocking policy - persistent personal attacks is considered a non-controversial block reasoning - that's precisely why templates like npa2 warn you that you may be blocked if you continue. There has been nothing in my behavior over the past week that has been an abuse of power or policy - if you feel the need to continue making these accusations, please open a request for comment on my behavior; otherwise, please stop making snide comments about me in multiple places. Shell04:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
There was no personal attack, nothing at all since that warn and the subsequent discussion. I was trying to discuss with a person that has very marked ideas on what he wants and is not used to Misplaced Pages working style (though he's getting addict at PAIN and your user page). I was trying to be pedagogic and constructive and the whole last section of Talk:White people page and Talk:White people/Mediation are evidence of my constructive and positive behaviour (though not of Thulean, but anyhow).
There were no Persistent personal attacks. Not since the warn and what you took as such isn't but a touch of irony and then a little more angry sarcasm. But no major nor constant PA, nothing that might justify a block of any sort. I was just discussing genetics, census of Latin America and future possibilities for the article structure and discouraging LSLM from keeping his tone of political denounce, as it seems to be problematic.
Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages. They should not be used as a punitive measure.
...
Caution should be exercised before blocking users who may be acting in good faith.
...
Blocks may be damaging when consensus proves elusive. Examples include:
blocks of logged-in users with a substantial history of valid contributions, regardless of the reason for the block
blocks that, while possibly wise, lack policy basis.
short term or cool-down blocks, e.g. if a user is angry about something controversial, blocking that user will rarely cool him or her down
Obviously you ignored all that.
You are claiming a justification that does not exist and, meanwhile, you ignored all the rest of WP:BLOCK. You used block as means of punishment, you took no cautions but acted on impulse (I deduce), you blocked an active user with a substantial history of valid contributions, you blocked without any policy basis, you tried to use the block as a "cool down" block.
You broke all the rules.
My appeal is more than justified. And it is not just for my name but specially for the good working of Misplaced Pages that I am appealing.
Besides I insist that you recuse yourself or get recused otherwise on intervening in cases affecting my person or the controversial article (where I won't be anymore anyhow but you may cause more damage than good), as you have clearly shown strong bias and misuse of policy. --Sugaar07:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Also: I don't see where the RfC fits in. The right place to appeal a wrong block is ANI, as per WP:BLOCK. RfC is for articles, users' editing or civility behaviour (maybe Thulean or you, Shell, should had started with that) and policies and conventions. Not for appealing a block or, it seems to me, recusing an administrator.
I think everybody would gain if you would recuse yourself voluntarily. And I have no questions about the validity of my appeal as such and, the more policy I read, the more convinced I am that the block was absolutely wrong.
Additionally, I have no interest in persecuting any direct confrontation with you, Shell, and, definitively, I won't be disturbing the peace of your campaign for ArbCom or your user page. Personally, I have no problem if you and I don't talk to each other for a while. But I can't trust you after this. I don't know how you expect me to trust an administrator who instead of appliying the policy and guidelines applies martial law, that uses wrong (I'd say "false", but maybe it's too harsh) justificactions for her actions, that has clear prejudice against one side of a very complex and difficult conflict, that assumes that if I did wrong once I will always do the same without any comprobation. No: I've seen other admis recussing themselves on much weaker grounds but you insist in staying in charge and admit no error.
I don't know what you expect from me. I strongly believe in Misplaced Pages's principles, independently on wether I may agree or disagree, be aware or not of some particular aspect, and I am each day more convinced that you have broken all them with this totally unjustified block.
I understand that you can commit errors. We all do. But I also think you should meditate on this and accept what is your part of fault. That's actually much more honest and respectable than just castling on your unjustifed position. --Sugaar08:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to stalk anyone. I just mean justice done. If the common user must abide to policy, much more administrators.
I have tried to avoid direct discussion with Shell because at this moment doesn't really seem helpful. I have unwatched her talk page and any other case related pages apart of this one.
But I am right and you are not applying policy as you are suppossed to be done.
I insist you do your work and stop protecting each other: study my appeal, determine if the block was right and say why. I have put forward many reasons so far why this block was totally wrong.
As I said, we all commit errors but we must be able to admit it and fix them. It is my right and my duty as wikipedian to appeal an unjust block. I must not renounce to it and you should not abide by other reasons than policy: that's why you have been named administrator, not to protect each other but to protect Misplaced Pages and good willed wikipedians as I believe I am.
I am astonished that no administrator here has said: you have a point Sugaar, policy was violated in your case and your appeal is at least in this or that way correct.
I am also disappointed because Shell, on whose good will and seriousness as administrator I once believed in, doesn't seem to be able to admit her error. I'm not calling for the head of anyone, just for justice and due prudence.
And personally I have felt stalked myself by Thulean and this attitude protected by Shell and other administrators somehwat. I am insomniac, I am smoking double than normal and I am quite worried at some "irregular" trends inside Misplaced Pages only now I am realizing.
I have a great trust in Misplaced Pages as such and, if I dropped the case I would be betraying it and Misplaced Pages itself. It is a very good case but I am still waiting for any of you to step forward and admit even a small part of the great deal of reason I do have. That also worries me, sincerely. You have a major responsability as administrators: you are the custodians of the integrity of Misplaced Pages (and its policies and spirit). I want to think you will be at the height of the enormous trust that Misplaced Pages has deposited on you.
And this is the place where I am suppossed to appeal my unjust block. I still have to see my appeal rejected with any good reason. Just calls for dropping the case, for giving up without any grounds. ::I am very worried at Misplaced Pages's system of justice. --Sugaar10:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to say few things. Of course I'm hugely biased but hear me out. First of all, Sugaar called me Nazi many times, among other PA's. I warned him unofficially and then officially and then reported him and he got a warn. After all this he continued and was even warned by the meditator.
"But that page has been under consistent attack by (mostly anonymous) vandals of clearly nazi/racist ideology. Thulean and Dark Thicondrias have been the only ones in that spectrum to do it with a username."
I've also made a response there, at the bottom of that section, trying one last time to tell how I feel. But afterall this he likened me to a jewish skinhead. So I believe the block was just. Shell Kinney has been very patient with him despite continuous accusations from Sugaar:
1) He claimed Kinney refused meditation.
2) His answer when told that he was wrong:
"You are right: you accepted the mediation request but I misread you because of your patronizing tone and threatening questioning of my terminology."
3) His meditation was rejected and he moved it to ANI. But he accused Kinney of misleading him again. which was wrong:
4) After ANI, he accused Kinney of not mentioning the correct policy which was also wrong
He also directed PA's to Kinney, one of which was pointed out by another administrator:
""we can hardly struggle against such one-sided admins as you, really." ...
...That would also qualify as a personal attack, per WP:NPA. So far as I can see, that's all Shell has been trying to tell you. Crimsone 21:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC) "
And still he is talking about how his comments werent PA and how he wasnt warned enough after all this:
After reading here Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#The_elephant_in_the_room, it's clear he implies me and anyone who follows the link to White people, which he gave, can understand he implies me. And besides "For instance, I have been warned for descibing one POV-pushing editor's ideology as "nazi" and "racist", which is blatantly true", he managed to say this:
"This is just allowing certain twisted people to gag others."
And he said this AFTER his block. Amazing...
And his refusal to apply wiki policy of "commenting on debate, not on editors" seems NOT only towards me:
"If not in the ANI, where admins seem to behave like a wolfpack..."
"Ironically Shell Kinney is running for ArbCom herself. Guess that her campaign is something like "Misplaced Pages needs an iron man and that's me" of Thatcher. I don't know. I'm voting a more promising candidate." Thulean13:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to disengage from Thulean. All mentioned above has been said previously and I have discussed all point by point. The only exception being my private note to user LSLM who is also very disappointed at the running of Misplaced Pages justice system and is yelling despair. It is anyhow decontextualized and if he wants to persecute me despite my attempts of disengagement, he should do it somewhere else. As it is irrelevant for the block or my appeal.
I have not asked anyone to come here to comment as I see it just as a matter of application of policy, not and RfC. Hence I request that Thulean's comments, along with my reply are deleted as irrelevant.
He is chasing me and looking for any error I might commit (not the other way around, as some seem to think). --Sugaar02:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Truth hurts, doesn't it? So long as you can stand around yelling that someone else is at fault, you seem to be happy, but when faced with facts, you back into a corner and attack. Not a single person who has ever looked at this case agrees with you. Perhaps I'm not the one that needs to take a hard look. And yes, WP:RFC is the correct place - please see "This is not the complaints board" up top. Take it to RfC if I'm so horribly overstepping my bounds. If you continue to attack and harass me at this point, I will ask another administrator to step in. Shell02:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
What Thulean may say does not hurt me. What hurts is that you and the other admins accept his activity as valid. That was my private comment to another user that has been also witch-hunted by Thulean and you (though he's much more stubborn in ignoring NPA) and was only intended that way. Not for you to read, not to cause harm to anyone, just to express my feelings at all this.
I really want some other administrator to step in, anyone cannot be less neutral than you. If I would not want other admins to take note and act, I would not be appealing at ANI but probably just quitting Misplaced Pages.
But I want that other administrator(s) to take a look at this appeal first and resolve clearly on it. Nobody has done that yet.
In any case, if you or Thulean think that's a fault, it should be a separate case, it can't afect my appeal because it is not cause of that block but a comment on how unjust it is and how I feel treated here by the admins who are suppossed to review the case. But it has no relevance to the case as such. It's only loosely connected.
If you are such a good and fair administrator as you and others seem to believe, you should accept my part of reason, what this appeal is about. And therefore you should remove a block that is so clearly against policy.
You cannot pretend that I have not done my best to correct my error on ideology as cause of PA. It is clear that I have, but you are ignoring it. You cannot ignore that since the first warn was made and clarified I have not made any personal attacks against Thulean or anyone and that what you are taking as such are just totally decontextualized irony (and anyhow an isolated case).
That's the problem: you tag someone as "troublemaker" and he/she seems to have to carry that mark forever and ever no matter how hard one tries. Now by applying unjust emergency measures against me you have tagged me as "convicted criminal", no matter that you are judge, jury and part and I never had any sort of trial. What I want is that trial, even if a posteriori.
I can't renounce to that because that would be betraying the values of Misplaced Pages and as member of this community I feel strongly about defending its values. You should too and therefore you should not have abused of your power nor violated policy. And, as you actually did, the less you could do is admit your errors and revert your wrongdoing.
I have read twice or thrice RFC by now and nowhere it says that administrators' actions are to be dealt with that way. We both must abide to policy and hence I stand that here is where this appeal belongs. --Sugaar19:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
'Personal attacks which place users in danger — Sysops applying such sanctions should confidentially notify the members of the Arbitration Committee (arbcom-l@wikipedia.org) and Jimbo Wales (jwales@wikia.com) of what they have done and why. See also Misplaced Pages:Oversight.
Obviously I wasn't placing anyone in danger (and I deny it was any personal attack). But that's the only case that is admitted by the policy.
Please, Shell or whichever one is in charge. Admit the error and undo the block, else I will have to go to ArbCom, what for me is a waste of energies but surely that's also something that nobody here wants. I don't know how ArbCom would in practice rule this, but every single piece of policy supports my case (and by now you should know I'm not leaving this abuse standing).
So let's not make it more difficult, Shell, and please let's fix it in voluntary good-will terms: you delete the block, you recuse yourself from any further case involving me and the White people article. I decline to intervene in that article anymore (I have already done it). Let's close the wound but let's do it well.
Else, unless some other admin intervenes here and accepts my appeal in its due terms, this will have to go to ArbCom and it is a very clear case of abuse of policy and sysop powers. --Sugaar06:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Every editor is expected to follow the policies developed by the community, not pick and choose which parts they feel apply to them or wikilawyer their way out of trouble. You appealed the block by requesting an unblock on your talk page and to the mailing list, both were declined. If you cannot accept the fact that no one has seen fit to agree with your contention that the block was improper, feel free to take it to RfC or ArbCom. As I mentioned to you once before in this now almost two-week long dispute, I would highly suggest you use RfC first this time instead of going straight to ArbCom and have another case dismissed outright for failing to follow procedures. I look forward to giving the community the chance to review both our behaviors. Shell09:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
"A user may be blocked when necessary to protect the rights, property or safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public. Examples include (but are not limited to):
Personal attacks which place users in danger (See Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks)
It was no persistent personal attacks. I had stopped that (ideological identification) after the ONLY WARN and Thulean knows it well, as all the late part of Talk:White people and the Talk:White people/Medietion pages show clearly. Besides it was no personal attack but just contextualized irony and that's why I wrote "stop whinning" under your totally unjustified complaint.
I am not wikilawyering (that's Thulean, who likes to jump to the throats of people who dispute his POV). I am extremely concerned, every day more, about possible abuse of policy by Misplaced Pages administrators, as happened in this very clear case.
As per WP:BLOCK, it is here where the appeal belongs. I am not opening an RfC but, if you think I am acting wrongly, you may want to open an RFC on me. Thanks. --Sugaar20:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Nevertheless, the RfC should not interfere, I think, with this appeal, on which I am still waiting for a resolution. --Sugaar17:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Harassment by SlimVirgin
SlimVirgin is harassing me. She blanked my comments on a talk page see this and subsequent edits without providing an edit summary or any other explanation. When I asked for an explanation she blanked that too, and then left a message on my talk page threatening to block me. I do not believe that my comments violate BLP or any other policy. It is proper for me to ask editor Cberlet whether his edits violate an arbcom ruling, as I think they may. I especially object to SlimVirgin trying to keep the whole matter secret rather than allowing the community to observe and make their opinions known. --NathanDW01:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thats not threatening you, thats warning you that what you are doing is a blockable offence. There is a difference. Viridae02:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
However, it is worth stating that the approach taken here was sub-optimal. In almost no instance is blanking text without an edit summary going to accomplish anything, the page protection(s) was/were probably uncalled for, and the talk-page warning was a little Draconian. No point using a steamhammer to crack cashews, really. The body of NathanDW's complaint reads as more about how it was handled than any objections to the idea of having negative statements well sourced. 152.91.9.14403:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Please read WP:BLP. Unsourced or poorly sourced controversial (negative, positive, or just highly questionable) material about living persons should be removed immediately from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, and user pages. It's the second sentence in the policy. It appears to me that SlimVirgin is trying to save you from being permanently blocked. Jayjg 03:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
There's been a lot of nonsense on that talk page for a long time, conducted by various editors, including LaRouchies. It was mentioned during an ArbCom case (I believe it was Nobs01), and it was decided that material not directly related to the article could be removed. Editors need to understand that they can't leave snide comments for the subject of the article on the talk page; if they want to speak to him about his real-life persona, they should contact him off-wiki, where he'd be able to ignore them more easily than when they're pestering him on the article talk page. Also, it's incorrect that I left no edit summaries; the summaries were "archiving," "blp issues," and "see your talk page" to NathanDW, followed by an explanation there. SlimVirgin04:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no beef with the results and agree with your stand regarding using using the page to communicate in "real-life." However:
Semi and full protection should be used sparingly. Here dealing with the editors directly would have been preferable to the slightly brute-force approach. Looking over the history of the talk page, there does appear to have been a fair bit of frippary, but not to protection-requiring levels.
Atempting to "tidy up" discussion without transparancy usually only ends up in having it spill out elsewhere. Replacing the material with an expository paragraph reminding users of their "living person" obligations would have had a better chance to succeed in the longer run.
I was referring specifically to this edit when I spoke of not using edit summaries. Further, the "archiving" edit was also a bit non-standard as there already existed two "page move" style archives.
I'm not trying to yank your chain Slim, simply observing some ways that misunderstanding might be avoided next time. 152.91.9.14404:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC) I'd also like to recant on "draconian" from before, that was too strong. Something like "brusque" would have been better said on my part.
Excuse me, maybe I'm a bit slow. I suggested to Cberlet that his edits to the article may have violated an ArbCom decision. I agreed with an earlier editor who said that his decision to change the word "liberal" to "progressive" was POV. And, I pointed out to Cberlet that statements he had just made on the talk page were contradicted by his own real life published statements. Can someone please explain how any of this violates WP:BLP? It seems to me to be normal talk page activity. --NathanDW02:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
You mean other than your unsourced and borderline libelous claims regarding what Berlet is supposed to have called "prominent conservatives", nope, can't see a violation of WP:BLP here. --Calton | Talk02:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Other than harassing the real person on the talkpage of the bio, not a thing. The talkpage is for discussing the article. If you think pestering its subject about his real life is "normal talk-page activity", perhaps you missed the post from SlimVirgin above? It makes it very clear what bio talkpages are not for, so let me quote it for you over again: "Editors need to understand that they can't leave snide comments for the subject of the article on the talk page; if they want to speak to him about his real-life persona, they should contact him off-wiki." It's quite simple, really: don't "suggest to Cberlet" and don't "point out to Cberlet". You're doing it in the wrong place.Bishonen | talk03:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC).
Pointless sarcasm aside, there are (at least) three issues here. Going in reverse chronological order:
How it was handled it (per above),
How to handle editor/article duality in cases like this, and
How these talk page edits relate to the living person's guideline.
It's best to pretend the editor is not the article subject as #2 can get messy quickly. So instead of saying "and you never tire of calling him a fascist" say "and Berlet never tires of calling him a fascist." This would help to make it more clear what's normal talk page interaction and what's out of bounds. This approach also makes it a sourcing issue rather than a civility issue. Which leads nicely to #3... Provide citations for these claims and there is no problem here. I'd prefer to avoiding re-hashing #1 above, but NathanDW is (clumsily) addressing a valid point, that this guideline should not be used to stifle debate, and that it's neither required nor productive to "vanish-ify" discussions of this sort.
I'm leaving the page semi-protected for a few days, because some of the problematic material was restored by an IP address within a range often used by LaRouchies. SlimVirgin07:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, this guy is a policy wonk. Which is amazing for a new user. I think we nee a block here but I'd prefer to get some support from other admins before any action is taken. --Deskanatalk19:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Many editors, myself included, participate in a number of aactivities besides article contributions. However, this editor has never made a single edit to any article, ever. A few deletion debates, and much nonsense on the talkpages of other editors. Since it's not overt vandalism, I'm not sure that a block is in order, but is this user really contributing anything to the project? Maybe a block is in order after all? Doc Tropics19:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
We don't even need to prove sockpuppetry. We can block for disruption and trolling if the community so wishes. And I believe he has met both criteria. --physicq (c) 19:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Trolling, disruption, and no useful contributions at all. This editor does far more harm than good; blocking is appropriate. --Doc Tropics20:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to ask Physicq210, ArmadilloFromHell, Ryulong, and so on a question. I have been contributing towards cleaning up some areas where Misplaced Pages talkspace and wikispace is being misused, as opposed to articlespace. I'm labeled as "overciting" policy when a user removes a speedy delete tag I placed — something classified as vandalism. The user responds incivilly by stating I don't know what I'm doing, then removes the entire section from his talk page — and shows no sign of putting it anywhere else. Something that my brother, on his anonymous IP account, was blocked for 24 hours for. I tell him he's not supposed to do that, and all of a sudden, you gentlemen here are talking about blocking my account? And as a "disruptor" or a "sockpuppet," moreover -- or, worse yet, a "policy wonk"? What the bloody heck? — Whedonette (ping) 20:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, not that it honestly really matters on Misplaced Pages, but one might ask you to consider what the "-ette" suffix usually implies about one's gender. — Whedonette (ping) 20:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't feel you can consider enforcing Misplaced Pages's vandalism policy as disruption. Disruption seems to be an extremely flexibly defined offense: if you don't like what the user's done, ban them for disrupting. Disrupting what ... a peaceful state of mind? The way things should be under an administrator's subjective viewpoint? The reason policies exist is so that people have metrics by which they know whether they're going to get punished or not. If any behavior a particular admin doesn't like can be slapped with a "block due to disruption" label, then why do policy pages exist here at all? — Whedonette (ping) 21:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Instead of throwing walls up around yourself and covering your ears and shield yourself away from truth, perhaps it will help if you actually listened to others' advice and start actually contributing to the encyclopedia instead of ramming what was a trivial complaint into all of our faces. --physicq (c) 21:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
For all your wikilawyering, you seem to misunderstand a few key points. First of all, it's not the action that constitutes vandalism, it's the intent behind the action, y'know, in a Kantian sort of way. Secondly, the "removing warnings is bad" thing really has no significant backing/consensus at the moment, so it's generally discouraged to bug people about that. Also, you should know that userspace is generally exempt from most of the rules governing encyclopedic content. Hope that clears up a few things for you, and I hope you stop harassing people about the contents of their userspace and actually build an encyclopedia. (By the way, this is addressed to Whedonette, not Cbrown.) --Mr. Lefty (talk) 21:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Not today. What with being called a wikilawyering disruptive sockpuppet policy wonk (boy, you boys sure know how to make a girl feel real welcome!), I can't say that I'm precisely in the mood to be a productive and beneficial member of Misplaced Pages today. So in the best spirit of m:Don't be a dick, I shall not be a dick and get some air and some turkey in my stomach before I approach Misplaced Pages again. (I got to get myself some friends like SUIT.) — Whedonette (ping) 21:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"then removes the entire section from his talk page -- and shows no sign of putting it anywhere else." - complete bollocks. One needs only to read User:SUIT's talk page to see that this is a total lie. When this user was told about this the user started ramblinb on about SUIT using multiple accounts, then cited WP:AGF, which as a quick read of WP:AAGF suggests, is one of the worst defenses in the world. I'm totally sick of this person now. --Deskanatalk21:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
...we need to get some of this guy's actions and use as an example in the wikilawyering article. He is appearantly operating under AABF and Always Assume Others Are Idiots. Anyone considered running CU? It would be interesting to see what turned up. --Elaragirl21:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Final comment: I have to sign off now to catch a train; I am heading out of town to visit family. If you choose to block me for a limited time, fine. If you choose to block me on a permanent basis, I would simply respectfully ask that, at the time of your blocking, you also advise me as to the appeal procedure for such a decision, as I don't feel it's warranted given my behavior and intentions. To ignore Elaragirl's insult and instead sift through all of what's been said above for positive comments, it appears that my reputation would be better enhanced if I were more of a contributor to articlespace. I will endeavor to do so in any future time I spend on Misplaced Pages. I also ask you to please assume that I mean it when I say that I have no intent to purposefully disrupt Misplaced Pages simply for the sheer sake of disrupting Misplaced Pages. To conclude, honestly, have a great holiday with whomever you're spending it with. — Whedonette (ping) 21:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Per Elaragirl: run CheckUser, do. Like there's ever been a newbie who Wikilawyered like this. A block is not merited but a reminder to the editor to quit harassing people, let people who know more about policy take care of that, and to actually write some articles would not go amiss. Just my 2 cents. What is more, it wasn't even SUIT who removed the Speedy Tag, as far as I can make out. Moreschi22:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a bad feeling about this user, based on the language & attitude that I've seen: Whedonette reminds me of a specific user whom the Arb has permanently banned & who also showed a similar flair for aggressive Wikilawyering & disruption. If it's not this person, then Whedonette should be given a firm warning for the imitation alone. -- llywrch03:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
It's quite difficult to prove that you are not somebody. I'm not this Wikistar user you linked to, but I can't really effectively prove that to you, can I? — Whedonette (ping) 13:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I will make a respectful offer to any administrator who's currently dealing with this: if it will help everyone concerned with the issue instead be at peace with it, block me for a day, a week, a month; I merely ask that you not ban me permanently. That, I would respectfully fight. When I come back, I will try to do some articlespace edits to somehow cement my reputation in better form in case this ever happens once again. I honestly don't admit to any guilt. The phrases thrown at me here are very incivil ("wikilawyering", "troll", "disruption", etc.) and have rushed, with no proof, to poor assumptions of me — I find the irony darkly humorous that I am being accused of assuming bad faith and being incivil in a manner that in and of itself assumes bad faith and is incivil. And wikilawyering is a rather humorous way of saying, "Damn it, Jim, she's citing policy at us! How devious!" But, practically, at this point, what can I do? Obviously, the tide of opinion feels differently than I do, and I can hardly change all of these editors' opinions. If it will make peace to accept a punishment, fine, then let's do that. At this point, I'm just amazed that this has exploded so quickly, and so universally against me. It makes no sense for this to be a battle I (figuratively) die for, so do what you like; I concede to whatever you like, short of permaban, that will just end this "SHE SUCKS!" montage. — Whedonette (ping) 04:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Everyone's annoyed at you, yes, but no one is going to block you unless your actions ask for it. About others "falsely" calling you incivil, please note that we also find it ironic that you are so quick to accuse us of incivility and impropriety while shoving WP:AGF down our throats. I don't see why you are so willing to turn a discussion that was only discussing your actions into some sort of us launching a crusade against you. --physicq (c) 04:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Well, then, the purpose of this discussion seems fulfilled: if I'm not going to be blocked, then I think we've discussed the issue enough, and I think further discussion will just aggravate both parties. I will try to start focusing more of my work in articlespace (although I won't begin that campaign this weekend, most likely). — Whedonette (ping) 13:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The idea that this user expects us to seriously look at their actions with good faith is insulting to my intelligence. We don't have to AGF when we all see evidence to the contrary. And Wikilawyering means "to deliberately twist policy to your own means rather than the letter and spirit of the law to game the system" , which you're doing. Stop. And yes, this all does seem eerily familiar. --Elaragirl06:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Jeff3000 has gone on a disambig streak changing every instance of the word British to point away from the disambig page, yet in this case, the disambig page is the only place where the adjective is explained. The links he is pointing British too make less sense than the disambig page. He's also left some rather nasty notes on other editors pages when they use the word British. Could someone more familiar with disambig issues look into this please? Right now it seems he's making more confusion by moving it away from the content of British. Thanks. pschemp | talk04:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Though British is the only page at which the adjective is explained, it is surely appropriate that we point links to the nation to which the adjective refers (see, e.g., our general treatment of American qua adjective of nationality, viz., the piping ]); many of Jeff's edits appear to be of the former variety, such that they are probably appropriate disambiguations (although I share in pschemp's assessment that some changes have been inexact/confusing and ought perhaps to be reverted). Similarly, whilst Jeff might perhaps have been a bit a more decorous in phrasing his don't link to Britain boilerplate—the tone in its prescriptivism is perhaps a bit high-handed (and the substantive submission is not completely accurate; there are instances in which one properly links to a dab page generally and to Britain in specific)—he doesn't seem to have been disruptive or incivil here; indeed, concomitant to his boilerplate has been a welcome to several new users, and, in general, though terse, his messages have not in the least, been, to my estimation, nasty (apologies if I've overlooked something a bit more untoward). Perhaps this issue has been addressed to Jeff on the talk pages of other users to whom he has written, but it surely hasn't been mentioned on his talk page, and I wonder whether this issue, to the extent that there's anything about which the community ought to be concerned (I don't know that there is), ought first to have been addressed to the user in question. Joe04:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I know of at least one user talkpage where he left a less than civil message and then did not answer at all when the issues were pointed out to him. pschemp | talk04:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
British was the colloboration of month during the September disambiguation project, see WP:DPL, where over 3000 links were disambiguated. There were multiple editors, including User:RussBlau (through his dab username User:RussBot) and others who all worked over weeks to disambiguate the term, as well as other links. In fact, the country terms are one of the links that come up the quickest, and a set of users have been set up to disambiguated them before they become a problem; see WP:DPM, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Disambiguation/Adopting disambiguation pages. I am not the only one who is working on this project. As for the ambiguity, when the term is ambiguity of a term is being discussed, I link straight to British (disambiguation), which makes it clear that the term should not be disambiguated. Note from WP:DPL, "Ideally, Misplaced Pages articles should not link to disambiguation pages (with rare exceptions where the ambiguity of a term is being discussed); instead links should go directly to the appropriate article".
Now in regards to my messages, they are not uncivil at all, but informative, and the vast majority of people thank me for informing them; they are just unaware that linking to disambiguation pages is not preffered, and in this way the tireless work of the people disambiguating is lessened. You can see all my dab messages at User:Jeff3000/dab.-- Jeff300004:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Leaving comments for established users who are well aware of exactly what British links to is not very polite. However, not answering them is much more so.pschemp | talk04:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
How do I know if a user knows of the dab page recommendations? I am not a mind reader. I, also, reply to editors who respond to me to my talk page; I don't keep watch of others' talk pages. -- Jeff300004:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
IF you make a post to another's talk page, it is your responsibility to then answer objections raised there. You don't get to just ignore everything not on your talk page, especially when you posted on theirs! That's awfully condescending of you, again. pschemp | talk04:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Now its not. Some users do so, but the vast majority do not, and expect people to respond on their talk page. Of the people who have asked me something on my take page (in the past couple days), they can be categorized as:
Thankful: , , , , ,
Thinks that I offended him: (explained to him that I did not, and that I was just pointing out why linking to disambiguation is not so good.
Questions my statement, (responded to him on his talk page)
That's nice. You still didn't answer why you are so important that you can ignore responses to statements you post on other's talk pages. pschemp | talk04:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
As I already mentioned, I do not watch other people's talk pages, as is standard practice for Wikipedians (those that expect a response on the talk page they wrote to, state so on their own talk page), and given that I do not know of any responses, thus I am not ignoring them. -- Jeff300005:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Your claim that that is standard practice is not true first, and second, you don't know of any responses because you haven't been paying attention at all obviously. IF you leave a message for someone, it is your responsibility to answer them, plain and simple. And *most* people answer on the same talkpage the message was left. You attitude here that you aren't responsible to responding to others is terrible. Communication is important, and you are ignoring half of it. pschemp | talk05:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I completely disagree with you. Look at your talk page, you have a note that mentions that you will watch other talk pages; if it was standard practice, you wouldn't need such a note. Regardless, I've stated my opinion about my actions, and unless others have any comments or suggestions, there's not much more to say. I would also like to note, that you could have asked me to change my message (which I believe is not uncivil in any way) or asked me to respond to some message on some talk page, but instead you came straight here, without even informing me. Instead Joe had to inform me of this thread. -- Jeff300005:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
IF you had been communicative and paid attention to the responses to the messages you left, you would already have been aware of this. Ignoring responses to messages you leave is not acceptable. You already ignored responses on others' talk pages so then why would I think you wouldn't ignore one on your own talk. Im sorry, but if you leave messages, it is your responsibility to respond to answers you get. Burying your head in the sand deserves a post here. Besides, I have every right to ask other people to look at a situation. Posting on your talk page does not accomplish that. pschemp | talk05:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Still disagree with you. Can you find a policy page that states that one must watch a talk page one posts on? Regardless, I went through all the talk pages I posted on. The vast majority had nothing posted on them. Two of them had thank you notices , and one, which I assume is the one you are talking about where she states 1) would have been nice to know where she did not disambiguate, and 2) disagrees with the dabbing. True, I could give the diff, but most people are thankful just for the tip, and the few that have wanted the diff have asked me on my talk page. As for the second point, the standard practice is for disambiguation of these country terms is to disambiguate to the country of origin, unless there are specific reasons not to. In the article in question, the ambiguity of a term is not being discussed. -- Jeff300005:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Jeff3000, you can add me to your list of those who found your message to be mildly insulting. I was going to post a pithy retort on your talk page, but decided it wasn't a good idea to respond at all since it could only leave me looking bad.
Next time you correct one of my links, I don't really want to know about it. I'm not trying to disrespect your work... ---J.S (t|c) 06:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Putting aside the contents of Jeff's boilerplate message, I do think that disambiguating links to British is consistent with Misplaced Pages policy and ought not to be discouraged. There are exceptions but they are relatively rare. And I think it is usually a good thing to provide some form of notice to the editor who originally created the link, since they might want to see what has been done and might even suggest a more appropriate target for the link. (Or they might not, in which case they can just ignore the message.) I offer to Jeff my own boilerplate text (which I'm not actually actively using) at {{dablink notice 1}} for his consideration, although it was designed for a slightly different context. --Russ(talk)12:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note on this - British and United Kingdom are different things. For example, a company may be British but is subject to Scots Law - there are more but too many to go in to. Surely it would be better to rewrite British so as not to be a disambig page? British needs adequately describing and should not be simply a "click on" page. Regan12321:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
To a certain extent I disagree. I think this is an example of an occurence where we need more than a disambiguation page, but where a full article would be repeating detail from elsewhere and not reflecting the fact that the majority of links to the page will be intending to go to, say, the United Kingdom, rather than to article about British. I think the current halfway house works best. --Robdurbar22:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm noticing a disturbing trend on new pages patrol. I've seen at least a half-dozen new accounts create a plausible title, leave an edit summary stating "Created article with..." and the only "content" was those godforsaken, idiotic echoes of the title or unrelated nonsense. The style is the same on all of these. I am simply going to start blowing those accounts out of the water on sight. Thought you all should be aware. - Lucky 6.906:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
ROFL. This new thing has caused quite a stir...this is the third or fourth comment I've read about this new feature. Hbdragon8807:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, ha! Just when I thought a new, improved breed of vandal came along, it's something we did! I love it! What a great way to clobber nonsense!! - Lucky 6.907:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Zowie! Just clobbered three nonsense articles and was able to skip over a legit new article from a longtime user who forgot to summarize it. Didn't have to open 'em first! I repeat: I love this. - Lucky 6.908:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Yah. A little bit of surprise and WTF? at first, but when I realized the deal, I was quite happy. Yay! More turkey fighting! --jpgordon17:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
NRen2k5 (talk·contribs) sent me an email requesting unblocking and unprotection of his talk page to appeal the block. I protected the page and extended his 24-hour NPA block because he was continuously removing warnings with abusive edit summaries. He said:
I was justified in my actions because I have been suvbjected to harassment, threats, stalking, constant reverts, personal attacks, outright lies and appeals to authority over the past 48 hours.
I also notice that my usertalk page has been protected, which will interfere with the appeal process. please remove the protection and the block.
Would I be right to ignore this, or is he just not adept at properly reporting abuse done to himself? - Mgm|11:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
To anyone considering this please do fully review this editor's recent contributions and note how he's been repeatedly uncivil to not only myself but admins that have been counseling/warning him. The block message and warning blankings are just the last in a series of examples of problem behavior (including using his user page -since blanked per G10- to attack me) by this editor. This ANI thread is illustrative as well. Thanks. (→Netscott)13:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Mike Mendoza was for some time a mess, with large amounts of unsourced text based on stuff heard on the radio. At some point the real Mike Mendoza, who is now editing from User:Mike mendoza (identity confirmed) started removing material. After some back-and-forth, during which I got involved, the article now contains only sourced information - or at least, none of the unsourced information is under dispute. Unfortunately, Mike mendoza is continuing to remove the following paragraph.
Mendoza is Jewish and has co-founded a London-based Jewish radio station, Shalom FM, in order to provide, he says, "some balanced reporting about the community and Israel."
The source seems legitimate and we haven't been given any reason to believe the contrary. User:Mike mendoza's only justification, expressed solely via edit summaries, is "i am no longer connected in any way with shalom" - which we don't say he is, but it seems undisputed that he founded it, and for a notable DJ that's a relevant fact. Despite repeated requests he's never communicated via Talk:Mike Mendoza or User talk:Mike mendoza.
I'm asking someone to warn him that he may be blocked if he continues, then follow through if necessary - not as punishment, but in the hope that being unable to edit will force him to communicate. I can't do either as I've been active editing the article. The only other route I can see to stop the edit warring, apart from the unacceptable one of continuing to revert until he gets bored, is to suggest mediation - which he will almost certainly ignore - and then go to Arbcom, which would be a massive waste of their time, in my view. --Sam Blanning13:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
He appears to take offense to the implication he's still connected to the station. What if you added the fact he left at the end of the sentence? - Mgm|13:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any reliable sources that say he has no connection, or that say that he says he has no connection? If not, this "fact" has to go. What an anonymous user says isn't really reliable. yandman13:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not an anonymous user, however. I'm assuming that when Sam Blanning states that he has confirmed the identity of this user, we can take that statement at face value. (Sam has been around here for a while, and is both technically competent and not prone to fits of gullibility.)
I see no reason not to add "Mike Mendoza is no longer associated with Shalom FM" (per Mgm) and slap a {{citeneeded}} tag on it so that everything is kosher. This really doesn't seem to be a particularly controversial point, and I admit to having trouble seeing why the individual would want to lie about this. I'm assuming – and if there's more backstory than is immediately visible, please fill us in – that he's busy full time with Talksport, and just doesn't do the Shalom FM stuff anymore. (I note that our source supporting Mike's link to Shalom FM is almost three years old, which is an eternity in the entertainment industry.)
In other words, I see no reason why we shouldn't let individuals update uncontroversial biographical and career information in their articles. I also agree with Sam's point that blocks may be necessary to encourage discussion; the correct way to deal with Mike's change of jobs isn't to delete the reference to Shalom FM, but to note that his affiliations have changed. Per WP:AUTO, individuals about whom Misplaced Pages has written are strongly encouraged to use the talk pages when they encounter conflict. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This issue has been the subject of a report at WP:AN/3RR. I suggested there that attempting to enforce as a blockable 3RR violation would be inappropriate. It's more appropriate to look at it under WP:BLP and WP:COI together. Fys. “Tafysaym”. 16:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
There is indeed no reliable source, so far as I know, that would show that Mendoza has left Shalom - in fact, he's still listed on their website . We could say he left anyway and leave it unsourced, but a) that's sloppy article writing and b) as long as he's still listed on Shalom FM's website anyone would be within their rights to challenge the sentence.
This might be solved by changing "has co-founded" to just "co-founded". The former connotes continuing affiliation, the latter does not. - Jmabel | Talk19:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This IP Address is of Chaska High School in Chaska, Minnesota. It has shown consistent vandalism, not just to the Chaska High page, but to many others as well. Anyone in the school can access Misplaced Pages through this IP, and as such, are truly anonymous. If someone at the school wants to edit Misplaced Pages that badly, they can get a user account and contribute that way. I would propose a indefinite block on the IP, as it has been shown to cause more harm than good.
Reference the Chaska High School article to view this IP address and its 'contributions' to Misplaced Pages. --Pseudolus4214:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe 3 in 5 minutes, but no have you asked the admin who protected about it, they may know more or may have made a genuine mistake. --pgk15:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think he's requesting it (a could initiate it himself anyway), it's a description of what has already happened --pgk15:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I go for more than that. If it's a popular page, there should plenty of people watching to rvv. A few times a day is nothing - your average sports team article gets that much on average, esp. during the season. There's VOABot II as well. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Where has this file gone? Image:Buddha-Sarnath-sepia.jpg Lots of pages link to it. There's nothing in the deletion log. There are no deletions in the history. Has it been killed and all revisions oversighted? Am I missing something obvious? Is this a database blip? A lesson in the transience of all things? Most strange. Antandrus (talk)18:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I just received an email from User:Iwazaki asking me to delete his sandbox (here). This user, while not being the most diplomatic person on the planet, has in my opinion calmed down since his first altercations with Shell and myself. He seems to have turned the page, and I can understand why he wants to delete his sandbox and its history (not being an expert in MediaWiki syntax, he used it to prepare a retort to one of his "opponents"). Would anyone care to oblige? Thanks. yandman21:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd thought about db-self, but I think it's only for articles. I didn't know about userreq, though. We live and learn. Thanks for the quick reply. yandman
