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Welcome to WikiProject Massively multiplayer online games's talk page. Please respect the following guidelines on this page:

  1. No personal attacks.
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  5. Please keep all posts on the topic of this WikiProject; we do not want to hear about how bad (insert game's name here) is.

Also, if you are requesting expansion, wikifying, or cleanup on an article within the project, the place to do it is on the main page, not here on the talk page. But anyhow, enjoy the talk page! - Greeves (talk · contribs)

Starships! is up for deletion

When do these attacks stop? Is it going to be an on-going battle until they've deleted everything in the category? I can only think of two articles that are better sourced than Starships!. We better stop this, or we will lose a lot of really good articles if they get away with this. Matt Brennen 20:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe you have the wrong idea. These are not attacks, they are just people looking to make an encyclopedia and make Misplaced Pages a better place. The game does not look notable and as such can be deleted. I don't think it's a battle but rather people are becomming more familiar with the policies and people are now noticing these articles and how they are unnotable. I personally do not think Starships! is a notable game and to help Misplaced Pages and WikiProject MMO I voted Delete for the article.  Orfen  | Contribs 23:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well you might as well delete the whole category then, because sourcing doesn't get much better than it does on starships, I figure that's why they are going after it so hard. It's like setting a precedent. They get away with calling perfectly valid review sites "Personal sites" even though they have employees, made hundreds of reviews, and have been around for years. Another called Starships a "flash game", proving that they aren't even looking at the game at all. Yet, nobody challeneges them. We lost 40 games in one night because one editor put quick delete on every MMORPG in the category, and nobody is challenged to explain their actions. Starships has plenty of sourcing, even a bibliography. I look around at all the other MMORPG articles, and none of them measure up, and helpful editors like you will continue to vote for them to go. Half of them are gone now. This category will be completely gone in a month or two. This is very sad. Matt Brennen 02:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources resources

Due to the large number of MMPORGs going through AfD at the moment, it might be instructive to put together a list of reliable review sites for such online games. And perhaps a list of unreliable sites. If concensus can formulate such a list, it can be referred to when AfD's come up and hopefully avoid some of the heated arguments. Marasmusine 19:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the recent bones of contention has been over websites like MPOGD. Why not start off with peoples thoughts on this? DarkSaber2k 21:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I also want to know people's opinion of GameOgre.com. Is this a reliable site for references? Marasmusine 18:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the deletionists will have an answer to everything. Being on sites like GameOgre won't help. They will say it is a list service, or even a blog, or whatever works. What they won't say is "Yes, that's a perfectly acceptable source." Sites are being deleted that have been written about in books, given multiple independent reviews, have dozens of fan-sites, hundreds of thousands of players, etc., and still get deleted. Half of the category was speedy deleted in a single night, no talk, no reviews, just "Poof!" gone. The other half is being systematically taken down piece by piece. This is not about "sourcing". This is about an attempt to empty this entire category. At any given time there is an MMORPG article on the AfD. We don't need better sourcing, we've lost articles that had plenty, we need arbitration. Matt Brennen 21:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:WEB clearly rules out Internet directories in its list of acceptable sources, so the Multiplayer Online Games Directory obviously fails this. So far as I can tell, GameOgre.com is also an Internet directory - each game seems to get a neutral or adspeak introduction (written by the submitter?), followed by unedited user reviews. If the site accepts any game as a submission, then it is not a "credible published with a reliable publication process", as required by WP:RS. --McGeddon 21:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

One point worth considering though is that MPOGD has a monthly award it gives out. I've personally believed they can be used a source for notability, but what does anyone else think? DarkSaber2k 22:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
What does their Game of the Month actually mean? Clicking through their site, they have a game listed for each month, but they're only repeating its directory-entry description in each case - it's not clear whether it's an editorially-nominated award, or simply autocalculated from user votes that month. (Planetarion and Hattrick actually both appear several times, which would suggest it's the latter.) --McGeddon 00:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
"ABOUT MPOGD's GAME OF THE MONTH POLL

The Multiplayer Online Games Directory's Game of the Month is chosen by players as the premier game for that month. All playable games listed are capable of winning this award although a game can win the award only once a year (starting 2002)."
From the bottom of the page. Planetarion has appeared 11 times, seven in 2001 alone to suggest more than editorial pick. Squids'and'Chips 00:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
But on the other hand, there are plenty of other awards that are considered acceptable that are voted for by the general public, such as annual PC magazine awards. DarkSaber2k 08:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Most well-known award ceremonies only have one or two "people's choice" awards, don't they, to avoid too much vote-stuffing? Skimming around the web, there are lots of minor-MMORPG forums encouraging their players to vote every day, and it's implied that the voting system isn't particularly rigorous ("mpogd's poll is laughable. Winning this thing is a few lines of code.").
Given this, I don't see any reason to regard an MPOGD award as anything other than proof that a game has a dedicated fanbase. If there are any reliable sources that write in detail about the award being respected, though, then maybe we could take it seriously. --McGeddon 09:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
That's fair enough, I can agree with all that. Do any of the Link directory sites have ACTUAL notable awards, or should we just consider them all to be unreliable sources? I still haven't seen any argument as to why they might actually be considered notable. DarkSaber2k 09:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
An award on it's own doesn't really cut it, unless there's some kind of journalism attached to it (as in significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources) Can we get together a list of sites that provide professionally written reviews and articles? IGN and GameSpot are ones that keep popping up. Marasmusine 11:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:WEB does specifically allow sites which have "won a well-known and independent award from either a publication or organization", even if they've no other coverage. But yes, any well-known award would require some sort of reliable source to identify it as "well-known". --McGeddon 12:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'd say that MPOGD would qualify as well-known, but the award is definitly not independent of the games, as even a casual search of most broswer game forums reveals a thread co-ordinating votespamming for such awards. DarkSaber2k 12:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Prods

These articles have had prods added to them today:

Does anyone know anything about these games? Squids'and'Chips 20:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Alter aeon has had some new references added although they mostly seem to be MUD lists (which I will now remove). Marasmusine 07:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the only one with a third-party source is Alter aeon, and it's only a single one. The deleteionists will tear all six of these to shreds if we don't do something. A shame too, these are all games with large followings, and very notable. It makes me sick to see what is being done with these articles. Matt Brennen 21:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't the sourcing. While this is one reason the other reason is that the games show no notability. Also as stated in the AfD for Starships! WP:WEB applies to these games as well.  Orfen  | Contribs 21:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Your weird twin-personality with regards to these articles is strange to say the least Matt. You supported the deletion of Gothador and have (rightly) tagged the FallenSword article for a repost deletion, yet seem curiously blind to any other article that has exactly the same failings as those two. DarkSaber2k 22:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Having looked at other entries on the page (MU* Games) that links to Alter Aeon, I would say that if you delete the Alter Aeon page by all rights nearly every other link on that page should go as well. Most of them have reference links back to only the home page for the game, and nothing else. Personally, I think deleting all of them would be a tremendous loss of history. At the very least some of this stuff should be archived as historical. 00:20, 11 May 2007 (CST) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.48.71.243 (talk) 03:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC).
To show it is historical, you first need to show it is notable, which is the main concern here anyway. Or are you talking about an archive of every MMORPG there is? Misplaced Pages is not a directory (WP:NOT). Perhaps something like Gamerwiki is more appropriate. Marasmusine 09:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Image concern

Regarding this image used in {{WP MMO|task force=Neopets}}, I believe that image is fair use and shouldn't be used in the template per policy. Squids'and'Chips 22:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

That was the WikiProject Neopets logo so naturally, I included it in the template. Now that you mention it though, that is fair use and it should be removed. Greeves 12:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Battrick Cup

I just stumbled across this article, listing winners for a cup from the online game Battrick. Anyone want to share their thoughts on whether this is really the sort of article that should be here? Smacks a bit of fancruft (Oh noes, the 'c' word!) to me. DarkSaber2k 22:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it fell under WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, at the moment ("Articles which are primarily comprised of statistical data may be better suited for inclusion in Wikisource as freely available reference material for the construction of related encyclopedic articles on that topic."), but it fails basic WP:N as well. If the Battrick Cup itself is notable and has sufficient sources backing it up, then it could stay if rewritten to have more non-statistical content, but otherwise this should just be a prose section in the Battrick article, without all the stats. --McGeddon 00:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Habbo Hotel

Lately I have been improving the Habbo Hotel article. Since it has been classed as "Start" it has improved greatly; it now includes proper reliable references, images, an infobox and alot of other good information. Is there any chance the article could have its class raised? I suggest a B class. ~Spebi 02:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, what do you think is needed for its grade to be upgraded to an A? ~Spebi 03:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
First I would also suggest a B class article. Second to go to A class it must be a Good Article which must be nominated.  Orfen  | Contribs 05:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
With improvments to the referencing, more about the technical side of things (servers, and so forth), critical reception and reviews and general expansion the article should be well on the way to Good Article status. You also need to make sure that all the images have the correct tag ({{non-free game screenshot}}), sources and fair use rationales. Have a look at some other gaming GAs/FAs to see what you need (I've found Half-Life 2 to be an excellent example), and in particular Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft and RuneScape - the three MMORPG GAs. Also consider requesting a peer review. CaptainVindaloo 16:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
For the peer review you can instead have it sent to the WikiProject Video games peer review to have it reviewed by reviewers who specialize in video games. Greeves 18:29, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Guild Wars task force

I am wondering if anyone would be interested in joining a Guild Wars task force if I were to start one. The whole series of Guild Wars articles is not looking very well right now but could be improved! So, anyone interested? Greeves 03:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Nobody has responded as of yet but I think that I will start it anyway hoping that more participants come along as the articles really need the help. Expect to see the page soon at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Massively multiplayer online games/Guild Wars. Greeves 20:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Medievia

I propose Medievia be considered for deletion under the rules being discussed here. Clearly, its lack of attribution does not make up for the fact that it is one of the largest MUDs in existence. Further its references to the late '90's controversy regarding code theft are to usenet archives which also clearly should not be allowed.

More seriously, if an extremely notable site with loads of history like Medievia doesn't qualify, what's the point? The code controversy discussed in the usenet archives went on for years, yet because it's on usenet it must be ignored? I understand that you're trying to clean up the section, but if you apply the same rules to internet game pages that you apply to say, a geology page like Sapphire, you're going to come up short.

These games exist in the internet domain, which is a very transient medium. How many thousands of players have to be active before it's notable? If half a million people have played a game over the past 15 years, is that notable? How would a game administrator go about proving it given that web games have a vastly different review process than games shipped on cds? 76.48.71.243, 09:35, 18 May 2007 (MST)

I don't get it. Are you saying you think it should be deleted? Or are you nominating for deletion so that you can go on a WP:POINT-style rant about how its notable, but lacks reliable independent third party sources? DarkSaber2k 12:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes. I propose it be deleted, as it fails the notability specifications. Further, I also propose that the Realms of Despair and BatMud pages be considered for deletion for the same lack of notability. 76.48.71.243, 14:15, 18 May 2007 (MST)
I put Realms of Despair up for prod yesterday, since then I'm happy to say a reference from the Toronto Star has appeared. Marasmusine 20:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, but Misplaced Pages has a very clear definition of what it means by "notability" - a subject needs to have multiple, reliable secondary sources if it's suitable for an encyclopaedia article, and it has nothing to do with how many thousands of players have to be active. --McGeddon 13:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
My point is that if Medievia, arguably one of the biggest and most notable MUDs on the planet, is not considered worth keeping in WikiPedia, then perhaps everyone should take their hands off the keyboard for a while and think about the relevancy of the notability guidelines. If you apply it blindly, it will result quite simply in destruction of the entire category. Perhaps that suits the editorial staff, but I would think it unfortunate. 76.48.71.243, 14:15, 18 May 2007 (MST)
I agree about BatMUD, unless sources turn up, but Realms of Despair has proper independent third-party sources, so there's no grounds for deletion. DarkSaber2k 18:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

MU* games and notability

I'm afraid that most games on fail in notability. While I understand that there is a small group of dedicated fans of these games, objectivity forces one to reconsider if the games are notable enough in reference to WP:GAMEGUIDE. Many pages have already been removed under this guildeline, including the IRE games. I feel it is time to draw a straight line, and despite the amount of work put in the articles, and the quality of some, that apart from a very limited few, they should be deleted per WP:GAMEGUIDE and WP:NOTABILITY. I would first like the oppinion of the people in this project before I stard afding most of those articles, and I will keep this talk page updated on the afds, but in my mind there is only one way to go, and that is large scale afd. Martijn Hoekstra 13:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that most MU*s (and a lot in the MMORPG category) are not notable; it seems everyone and their grandmother has started some online game. I've been prod'ing items in this category steadily over the past few days, but I don't think there's any great hurry. Also, whilst investigating the MUD articles, I've found that most of them have been started by single-purpose accounts, which is quite revealing. Marasmusine 13:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
So are the things those SPAs say in AfDs related with to the article! I cleaned out a large chunk as speedy deletes recently, and have been tagging up articles with notability and primary source tags, so that they have time to find any sources they have. There are numerous articles that prove web games ARE covered in reliable independent third-party sources, and people are just going to have to accept that if their favorite game hasn't been, then wikipedia policies are specific on what happens. DarkSaber2k 13:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
If you wish to delete a large number of articles, try restarting discussion at Misplaced Pages:Notability (software). I, personally, believe that many browser games should be deleted (except for a few important ones such as RuneScape, etc.) though games made by major manufacturers should be kept. Greeves 14:12, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not denying that some may be kept. Achaea, Dreams of Divine Lands for example seems to be notable enough for an initial sifting. furryMUCK, although it's article is now not more then a stub could be notable enough for it's roots of furry fandom. (I haven't checked that notability, merely noticed that the article claims it). It's just the vast majority will sadly have to go. Sadly because some of the articles are rather eleborate, (for an example, see Genesis LPMud)and clearly have received a lot of work. Yet they just don't belong in an encyclopedia. Martijn Hoekstra 15:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Once thing I've thinking about is the large number of Korean MMORPGs (almost a genre of it's own) which are made by professional companies but you'd struggle to find English-language references for. Perhaps worth a task-force? Marasmusine 14:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I did an attempt to create a taskforce at Misplaced Pages:MU* Taskforce. This is the first taskforce, or wikipedia namespace page I ever created, so I might have done one or two things wrong. I do invite everyone to better it, and maybe give a hand in getting it all cleared up. Martijn Hoekstra 17:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The browser game base thing... they kind of fall between wp:web and wp:game. Based upon current policy most of them fail notability and about 80% of them have been deleted in the past few weeks anyway. Its worth thinking of the consqences though, there are a few other popular culture type categories that are even worse. One in particular i browsed the other day had 175 entries, i think about 10 would of passed notability. If we want an encyclopedia Britannica fine, but I'd always thought WP was meant to be more than that. This is a long way from what i usually get involved in but, its a shame to see interesting, well written, interesting articles disapear under cat whatever of speedy delete, its the precedent it sets that concerns me more than the subject matter. Bjrobinson 00:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

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