Misplaced Pages

:Arbitration/Requests - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Arbitration

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by David Gerard (talk | contribs) at 10:13, 23 May 2007 (→Comment by David Gerard). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 10:13, 23 May 2007 by David Gerard (talk | contribs) (→Comment by David Gerard)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) Weighing scales Arbitration​Committee
Dispute resolution
(Requests)
Tips
Content disputes
Conduct disputes
Misplaced Pages Arbitration
Open proceedings
Active sanctions
Arbitration Committee
Audit
Track related changes
Shortcuts

A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Arbitration Committee proceedings Case requests

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Palestine-Israel articles 5 (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 21 Dec 2024 11 Jan 2025
Recently closed cases (Past cases)

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Clarification and Amendment requests

Currently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.

Arbitrator motions
Motion name Date posted
Arbitrator workflow motions 1 December 2024

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/How-to

Current requests

JJay

Initiated by Arbustoo at 17:18, 22 May 2007

Involved parties

  • Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Arbustoo

JJay is a non-regular editor who rarely engages in adding substance to any articles. As of late his activities appear to take part in revert wars. This user is abusive and has been WP:STALK (reverts me, reverts me, Leap of Faith (film), If you look at the time stamps, he signs on wikipedia reverts/vote against my AFD me then signs off). When I tried to work out matters on his RfC, he ignored it. When I try to engage him on his talk he removes it When I tried to address my concerns he denies it and removes my comments.

Without any progress coming from admin., the RfC, or his talk there has been no remedy. Now JJay incorrectly claimed one edit of me removing his dispution of an entire list and taunted my concerns writing "Interesting litany of accusations. Make them in the proper forum." So here I am, making them in the proper forum.

He uses deceit edit summaries. Such as claims he isarchiving messages, but has no archive. When I asked about this error he removed my question.

Again, this user has not made any productive edits in months, but engages in behavior that is detrimental to the project with other editors .

I hope ArbCom is willing to settle this dispute before anymore new editors get turned away because of this. Arbustoo 17:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The WP:3RR is not what this is about, but it does show an error in his reading of policy and an interest in me. This user is disruptively following my edits. Yes, the RfC was four months ago, but my comments are still relevant. Also JJay edits infrequently making people less aware of his activities. Such as when he stepped away for a month during his RfC people are less likely to comment about his behavior because he is gone. When I try to address my concerns on his talk they are reverted immediately so there is no way to settle this. Arbustoo 17:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding his RfC he stopped editting 27 February 2007 and began again in April. Arbustoo 18:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
JJay's response to my ArbCom request. Arbustoo 02:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

Arbustoo is a defender of the wiki against promotion of unaccredited schools, among other things. Sometimes he errs on the side of including questionably cited content, but not very often, and he works hard against some pretty determined POV-pushing. JJay appears to dislike this. I ahve no idea where the disagreement started (probably with the Hammond articles) but it has been going on a long time and could do with being sorted out. That said, I am not convinced this is the right forum. Guy (Help!) 20:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by GRBerry

Arbustoo has perceived Jjay to be stalking him at least as far back as November 2006. See this claim by him. That is a tangential comment to a dispute that Arbustoo was a party to at the time, but does serve as evidence that this is a long running dispute. Whether this is the right forum, I don't know. GRBerry 20:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/0/1)

  • The RfC was four months ago, and the community was split on whether JJay's behavior is problematic. In particular, I'll note the concurrence of opinion between Badlydrawnjeff and JzG (which request is this again?) Is the present 3RR report the proximate cause of this request? You may reply in your statement. Mackensen (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Decline, no indication of anything substantive to arbitrate here. Kirill Lokshin 17:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff

Initiated by Doc at 16:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Informed Jeff

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Whilst there is an ongoing RfC initiated by Jeff, it is evident that Jeff regards this as a "a charade" with "zero value," a "song and dance"

Further, I have discussed this with him, and in regard to the specific behaviour of which I am here complaining, and arguing damages the encyclopedia, he was vowed to continue with regardless of the outcome . Since short of a 'meteor for heaven' (his words) he will continue with this disruptive and damaging behaviour, the intervention of the Arbcom is the only possible remedy.

Statement by Doc glasgow

Badlydrawnjeff is known to all. While he is a highly respected and prolific editor, his consistent commitment to legalistic process and his extreme inclusionism are notorious. He routinely contests deletions and argues for restorations on even the most tenuous of process grounds. That's led many people to regard him as a pest - indeed some people to dislike him. Actually, I don't dislike him. Yes, his activities are annoying, but generally they are within the wider scope of wiki-philosophies - and we can disagree in friendship without making it personal.

However, when his activities begin to impinge on the subjects of biographies of living people we cannot agree to differ. When championing in-house processes has the potential of causing harm, or bringing wikipedia into disrepute - we cannot let things go on.

The article which is the subject of the current dispute concerns a young man who was exploited as a minor and ridiculed on the internet. Whilst there is some evidence he tried to make the best of it, we owe a duty not to be party to ridicule and not to demean our encyclopedia over freak shows with Google hits. WP:BLP is not just a policy to be applied - it is a mindset worthy of an encyclopedia.

Perhaps, so far, this looks like a deletion dispute, and not a matter for arbcom. However, the issue is not just 'should we have an article here?' - which is a matter for the deletion process. The issue here is, "should we allow a private individual to be continually used as a football by those fighting in-house process battles?" Not just the article, but the continual debate itself infringes the spirit of BLP. That's why, after the initial AfD, so many separate administrators have wished to shut down the continuous incessant debating. As one admin complained to Jeff: "The repeated fuckwittery is reinforcing the WP:BLP problem by continually reinforcing the link between this poor kid's name and his victimisation.". But Jeff is not dissuaded.

This article has had numerous AfDs, DRVs and comment elsewhere. In addition to his comments, Jeff listed it on DRV three times: , filed an arbcom case, then when that was rejected had another go at DRV before opening his sham RfC. This activity is damaging to the encyclopedia. He's been asked to stop. But he's indicated he will launch more attempts regardless of the RfC . I am asking arbcom to call a halt. This is disrupting the encyclopedia to prove a point and is, in itself, flaunting BLP by continually linking this individual with his victimisation on our high-profile website. It is quite clear that no amount of discussion will dissuade him from this behaviour.

Statement by Tony Sidaway

This seems premature. Let the RFC run its course. At present there doesn't seem to be consensus to challenge the deletion, whether by an Articles for deletion rerun or a further Deletion review. Nor does there seem to be consensus that the administrators involved abused their powers. Badlydrawnjeff has indicated that he went reluctantly into the RFC, which he has called "a charade" with "zero value," a "song and dance" , and he has also indicated that if the RFC doesn't reach consensus to overturn, he'll petition the arbitration committee, and if that fails he'll start a deletion review anyway, no matter what . This does suggest that he intends to carry on acting disruptively until he gets a rerun. However, while he has threatened to do these things, he has not actually done them. At the moment it's all talk. We should give him the opportunity to digest the community's views and then decided how to act. --Tony Sidaway 16:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Badlydrawnjeff

I made my original statement here. The points still stand, the diffs are clear there - the deletions are out of process, the wheel-warring was bad, and consensus is not being followed.

I have done nothing wrong here. Arbcom denied the original case as premature, I brought it to RfC as you asked. RfC goes exactly as expected - piling on with dishonesty and incivility abound, even in this very ArbCom request. The RfC was going to have to end up here to at least discuss the wheel-warring, but I even said that the RfC was unnecessary if the issues surrounding the article at hand were dealt with. People instead decided to be nasty about it. See my talk page for the month of May, and see the commentary at the RfC - no editor should have to put up with what I'm putting up with here because I dare to disagree with administrators.

Yes, please, take this case. Let's get some real resolution here as opposed to allowing the usual suspects to shout down those who dare disagree with the power structure. As JzG says, I trust Arbcom as an honest broker, as it generally has been in the past. However, enough is enough.

A quick note, since I just caught it - I do not appreciate the implication that I somehow abandon rules/process when things don't "go my way," or that I've tossed process/policy to the wind in this case. The facts simply do not back up such scurrilous accusations, and I expect to have those false statements struck or addressed in the case if opened. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Hipocrite

I concur with Tony in that threats to continue are not actually continuing. I will make a statement at a later time. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

The only reason it has taken this long for this to be brought is that Jeff is a really nice guy. Doc states above that the problem is Jeff's devotion to process, but I don't feel that tells the whole story. What Jeff is devoted to, is popular culture. Where process can help him argue for that, he will pursue process to the bitter end, but, as we saw with the RFAR, if he believes process will not deliver the "correct" result, he will ignore all rules with the best of us, and the RfC he raised shows an absolute contempt for process.

It's not about process, I think, it's about the fact that there are some things on Misplaced Pages that are not as Jeff would like. These include the broadening of WP:CSD to include G11, strengthening of policy on living individuals, tightening and enforcement of fair use policy. All these come from Foundation, reinforcing Misplaced Pages's role as a responsible, credible provider of a free-content encyclopaedia, emphasis on encyclopaedia. These changes have been embraced by numerous long-standing Wikipedians, many of whom are of course admins by now, and applied. These long-standing admins are also inclined on occasion to go with judgement over process.

Jeff also approaches his desires in the wrong way. Rather than challenging the processes and policies with which he disagrees, he challenges their use, time after time. This can be an effective way of changing process, but when it repeatedly fails to change process, repeatedly trying it becomes disruptive, especially once it has been established beyond any reasonable doubt that Jeff's personal inclusion threshold is well off in the long tail. As Einstein said: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Some of the time Jeff is right but he is wrong so often, so loudly and with such persistence that this possibility is routinely discounted.

So: we have a tension between what Jeff wants and an ethos which seems to others to come right from the top and thus manifests itself in actions by the "admin cabal"; hence the admin cabal becomes the focus of Jeff's discontent. Dissatisfaction with some pretty fundamental parts of the project, including Misplaced Pages being a cluocracy not a democracy, becomes personalised in a group of individuals. In short: Jeff does not trust our judgement, and we don't trust his. And as FloNight says in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/QZ Deletion dispute#Outside view of FloNight, the constant challenging of admin's best-efforts closures of hard cases is actively harmful to the project, weakening our ability to remain an encyclopaedia rather than a Google mirror. I seem to recall Jeff saying he basically gave up on ED because he was unable to remake it as a place to cover memes, something that particularly interests him. Perhaps we have simply hit the same crisis here.

"The Case of the Fat Chinese Kid" exemplifies Jeff's approach overall. He crusades for things he wants. This is not evil, but it is a pestilential nuisance when the right answer is to sit back and mull it over. He tries the same thing over and over, even though it has not worked before. It is obvious that the AfD/DRV process was not well suited to a mature discussion of this case, and that WP:BLP concerns must, in the short term at least, take precedence. Opening yet another DRV was never going to achieve a different result, but was absolutely certain to perpetuate the fire.

I do not think this is going to be fixed by any process other than arbitration. I have tried to steer Jeff into working on the source of the problem (e.g. educating speedy taggers rather than trying to "educate" admins) but he is not interested. I do not believe he trusts the kind of people who are telling him this stuff, quite a lot of people just wish he'd go away, he is probably suspicious of what motivates any kind of steer away from what he's doing. I do believe Jeff may trust ArbCom as an honest broker.

Statement by MalcolmGin

If the Committee takes this case, I will be looking for an answer on whether users who follow process to try to bring meaningful feedback to otherwise unresponsive/uncommunicative admins can be penalized for trying to do so through multiple in-process methods.

Statement by GRBerry

I thought the committee should have accepted the QZ wheel warring case at the time it was first nominated, and resolved under much the same principles as the DB wheel war case. This is one small piece of the QZ case, and should not be accepted separately. There is a long running disagreement about how much process is important versus how much admins should be actively encouraged to ignore all rules, and whether certain admins are acting to override or prevent the formation of consensus when their actions are questioned. This is one root cause. Failure to make best efforts to adhere to WP:CIVIL is another; it has been violated by many, including people not named above. The closest to complete list of parties is probably found by taking everyone named in the bulleted list at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/QZ Deletion dispute#Description, and adding as evidence shows is appropriate.

While this is a piece of the QZ wheel warring case, there is a great deal of older history that is also relevant, and should affect the committee's discussion of the parties involved in that history. I think the process/ignore rules division that I outlined above constitutes the ground of most of the relevant older disagreements, and that a lack of civility is a long standing problem on the part of some involved.

Statement by User:Mister.Manticore

I urge the Arbitrators to take up this discussion, not on the grounds brought up here, but on the original request made here:

This isn't about badlydrawnjeff, or any one user in particular, it's about a problem of a different nature. Mister.Manticore 16:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by DESiegel

I was named as a party to the earlier, declined RfArb. I'm not sure whether I should be considered a party now, but I was involved in the events that led to this case being filed. (See my statement in the earlier case )

AfDs are intended to be, in some sense, final, in that they are an expression of consensus. Specifically, content deleted by AfD is thereafter subject to speedy deletion as a recreation (WP:CSD#G4), and repeatedly posting such content may be grounds for a block or ban. The only recognized way to avoid this is through a discussion at deletion review, unless the admin who closed the AfD can be persuaded to reverse the close or relist the article. While an AfD with a KEEP result is less final -- repeated nominations are common -- a prior AfD normally prevents speedy deletion (See WP:CSD which says "If a page does not uncontestably fall under a criterion, or it has previously survived a deletion discussion (except in the case of newly discovered copyright infringements), another process should be used instead.") And generally re-nominations after a short period of time with no significant changes or new arguments are frowned on, and may be speedy closed with a pointer to the previous discussion.

DRVs are normally final in a somewhat similar sense. When a DRV discussion endorses a deletion, there are no further places to appeal, and the matter is generally seen as settled. When a DRV overturns a deletion, the article is undeleted and stands on the same basis as any other article, but rapid re-nominations are usually frowned upon as if the article had been kept by AfD. And when a DRV discussion is closed as "Relist" the article is normally listed for a new AfD discussion, where whatever problems the DRV discussion found to exist should normally be avoided.

To speedy close an AfD opened pursuant to a "relist" outcome of a DRV discussion, on the basis that the prior AfD (overturned by DRV) was sufficient is to ignore the DRV close, to disrespect the editors who participated in the DRV discussion, and in general to fly in the face of consensus. This should not be done. Just as recreating content deleted by an AfD should not be done.

(See Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/QZ Deletion dispute#Statement by involved User:DESiegel for a longer version of my views on this.)

I urge the ArbCom to accept this case to consider whether, under current policy, it is proper to speedy close an AfD opened pursuant to a relist decision on DRV, and otherwise to prevent such discussion from occurring. Matt Crypto's improper revert of Drini's close should also be considered. However, the ArbCom might wish to defer the matter until more discussion occurs at the RfC, since the arbcom specifically suggested that an RfC be filed. DES 20:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by AnonEMouse

Please reject, temporarily at least, and see if the parties can work something out. Per Tony Sidaway, more or less. Prod them hard to work something out, all are seasoned contributors, none are malicious vandals.

If accepted now, I can't help but be afraid that arbcom will come up with the wrong answer, if for no other reason that so many arbiters have expressed their opinions already. But, say that the arbiters can overcome their own opinions and follow procedures and listen to the community: well, community opinions about the article itself seem in favor of deletion, while process and community opinions about the way it was deleted seem equally critical. The best possible answer seems to be to slap the wrists of the deleting admins, and send the article back for another contentious AfD, which it will again fail, since Newyorkbrad's persuasive argument tugs at many heartstrings. It takes a hardened inclusionist to !vote to publically commemorate a kid being the target of teasing and bullying. So the RFAR will accomplish ... what? At best express the views of the community about BLP and process, which views seem to be being expressed in the RFC now, and without any official sanctions. --AnonEMouse 23:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Night Gyr

If I'm reading this correctly, this complaint is being brought against Jeff because he wants to see misbehavior fixed. This is coming for all the wrong reasons and I recommend that this RFAr be considered evidence of the incivil hostility and harassment that's been repeatedly directed at Jeff. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Procedural comment by Mackensen

I'm recused from this case and I think my views are sufficiently well-known that I won't both repeating them here. I do suggest, however, that arbitrators adopt a strict view of who is and is not an involved party, and prevent the scope of the case widening beyond the central issues raised. I would suggest that, at this point, involved parties be limited to the bringers of the request and persons who conceivably face sanction. At issue, depending on who you talk to, is the proper role of deletion review, the limits of administrator discretion in closing a deletion debate, the relationship between Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons and persons of marginal notability, specifically the subjects/victims of Internet memes, and the point when principled objection becomes disruption. Mackensen (talk) 16:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my new comment, but this needs to be seen on its own

It appears that it was decided, on IRC no less, that I was too much trouble, and they decided to block me. By the way, no forewarning or notice on my talk page from anyone until AFTER I was unblocked. See the AN/I situation here. This is completely intolerable. Just thought people might like to know what's been going on behind closed doors.

By the way, if this needs to be handled in a separate case, just say the word. Something tells me this isn't going to need an RfC to sort out. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Newyorkbrad

There appears to be a very strong consensus that the block of badlydrawnjeff tonight was unjustified and inappropriate. It should not be used against him in any way. Newyorkbrad 02:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Johnleemk

I lean towards suggesting this case be accepted; arbitration would probably be the best avenue for sorting out that fucked up blocking incident, at the very least. It's also clear to me that this RfC isn't going to go anywhere at this point, and only an Arbcom decision will lay it to rest. I have no comment on the substantive nature (or lack of it) of either arbitration request, but I do think the focus should be (as I stated in my comment on the earlier request) on whether disruptive wheel warring occurred, and whether the BLP policy has been followed correctly. Clarification on these two matters appears necessary now that RfC is reaching an impasse on them. Johnleemk | Talk 03:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by David Gerard

The ArbCom does need to resolve the question of our policies on living biographies versus deletion review. People think that DRV can be used as an end-run around our living bio policies. I understand this is not the case. We are extremely harsh on crappy minor biographies for excellent reason - do you want people to keep thinking they can be voted around? Latest example: the Crystal Gail Mangum deletion review, which is a classic example of "I wanna" voters trying to outvote living bio policy. This followed a go-round on my talk page. For added relevance to this case, note Jeff's claimed ignorance of BLP deletion policy. If you don't address this one, it will come around again and again and again. If you'd prefer this in a separate case, please let me know - David Gerard 08:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Note re IRC-led blocking: This is a particular variety of foolishness that is expressly unwelcome on -admins, per rules on WP:WEA and past problems - it's one thing to come to -admins for sanity checking your urge to block someone, it's quite another not to flag it on ANI afterwards! I'll try to have a word with the guy and see what on Earth he was thinking. My apologies to all, and especially to Jeff - David Gerard 10:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Recuse from any clerk activity in this case. Newyorkbrad 16:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Mackensen: I doubt we can do much about people commenting on the request. However, if the case is accepted, the clerks will my inclination would be to list as involved parties those editors whose actions are disputed by badlydrawnjeff, such as early closures of AfD and DRV discussions (pending clarification to the contrary, of course). That seems to define the scope of the contested actions. Thatcher131 17:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Clarified my comment above. Thatcher131 19:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Recuse again, as per my earlier recusal. Johnleemk | Talk 03:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/2/1/0)

  • Recuse. Mackensen (talk) 16:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Accept. Waiting isn't going to help matters here; it's pretty clear now that nothing short of an arbitration case is going to resolve the dispute. Kirill Lokshin 16:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Decline. What do you need us for? If, indeed, he's announced his contempt for community and consensus and policy as stated above ("meteors" and "heaven"), the community can provide those meteors. --jpgordon 18:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Reject. This is almost the same case we rejected a couple days ago. If there is a problem because a user is insisting on following existing guidelines, it seems to me the first step should be to rework the guidelines. - SimonP 23:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Accept: this is clearly not going to go away, especially after the extremely unwise blocking incident. I am going to insist that the evidence page for this not turn into a free-for-all continuation of the fight over this; irrelevant evidence and commentary will be deleted. I regret that I see no real effort has been made to do other than dump gasoline on the fire here. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Requests for clarification

Requests for clarification from the Committee on matters related to the Arbitration process. Place new requests at the top.

Request for clarification from user:Andries reg. Sathya Sai Baba

See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Andries_banned Can Andries still edit the article Jesus, Vishnu, Shirdi Sai Baba, Shiva, and other Hindu saints and deities, even though Sathya Sai Baba claims to be a reincarnation of all of them? These claims are generally not accepted by the followers of Jesus etc. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Andries

Thanks in advance for your answer. Andries 19:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe Andries comparison to Jesus, etc. is grossly misleading. If the reviewer would review my comments on the request for arbitration enforcement, it would be appreciated. Thank you. Vassyana 19:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is it misleading? Sathya Sai Baba claims to be an incarnation of Jesus too, though it will be clear that the relationship is only accepted by followers of Sathya Sai Baba, and not by follower of Jesus. Same for Shiva, Vishnu and Shirdi Sai Baba, Rama, and other deities and Hindu saints. Andries 19:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The relationship between Shirdi Sai Baba and Sathya Sai Baba on which Vassyana's bases his complaint against me was added by user:Kkrystian on 17 May after I edited the article Shirdi Sai Baba for the last time (on 6 May) without citing reputable source. Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Kkrystian. Andries 20:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, Andries may edit these to the degree that they are not related to Sathya Sai Baba; in other words, not to edit-war with people over Sathya Sai Baba mentions in those articles. Mention of Sathya Sai Baba in those articles should be minimal if not outright nonexistent in any case; otherwise would violate the prohibition on undue weight contained in NPOV. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Appeal from Olaf Stephanos

In the recent Falun Gong arbitration case, User:Mcconn was placed on revert parole. However, according to CU performed by User:Dmcdevit, we have found out that the banned editor User:Samuel Luo has been using a wide variety of sockpuppets during the course of the last year. Among them are User:Pirate101, User:Yueyuen (an involved editor in the ArbCom case!), User:Kent888, User:Kent8888 and User:Mr.He, probably newly registered users User:Foullou, User:Shimanan, User:IamYueyuen, User:Gtyh and User:Fufg as well. Most incidents of Mcconn's revert warring took place against these sockpuppets. Therefore, I plead the ArbCom to lift the revert parole that was imposed on him, as it hardly feels justified in the light of this recent information. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 17:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Mcconn needs to have the self control to deal with other users if they disagree about content. And follow the proper channels for dealing with problem users. This includes users that are using sock puppets. FloNight 18:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there any chance for him to get his parole lifted if he now begins to edit in a completely respectable and proper manner? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 09:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Although, I'm not exactly sure why he needs to revert. If for a period of time (at least 2-3 months, I think) he shows self control in his editing, he can request his revert parole be modified or dropped. The key thing is for him to show that he can work collaboratively with other users. FloNight 16:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This would seem to be inconsistent application of the COI rule. FG activists are allowed not only to edit, but also can be let off the hook after 2-3 months. Olaf has demonstrated much incivil behavior yet he hasn't even been warned about it. Yet less controversial alter egos of Sam like Yueyuen have been banned for eternity, and even Tomananda for their 'activism'. This is direct contradiction in logic. I have asked some Arbitrators on this matter, but no explanation has been given apart from 'dealing with the worst offenders'. Surely ArbCom should be aware by now that excommunicating one side at the total expense of the other will only result in worse edit wars. If Wiki FG-related entries wants to avoid being a battleground, temporary protection is not enough; we need a balance. Can Checkusers be done on ALL FG editors? If we are to defend human rights (e.g. all persons are created equal) and freedom on Wiki, we need to ensure fairness for all users, even if you disagree with their beliefs and principles. Please tell me if what I said was objectionable or disagreeable with any Wiki policies; whilst the ArbCom's hard work is always admired and appreciated (because I myself could never make that kind of commitment!), we need to ensure fairness and avoid falling into propaganda traps and ensure, in a way, balance-neutrality not only in principles, but also in the APPLICATION of principles to ALL users. Jsw663 12:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have apologized for all incivility I might be guilty of. The situation was quite tense with Samuel and Tomananda, and their legacy lingers on until we've reformed the articles. By the way, like I've said several times before (but never getting a response from you), it is quite uncivil on your part to keep accusing "pro-Falun Gong vandals/apologists" of vandalizing your user pages, even though we found the guy (User:NuclearBunnies) who made matching edits. I have nothing against a checkuser for all involved editors. I know for certain that none of "our party" is using sockpuppets. There will be no edit wars as long as everybody adheres to the policies. I'm not here to insist on blatantly substandard content like the puppetmaster(s) from Frisco. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 11:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot to mention that your distinction between "less controversial alter egos of Sam like Yueyuen" and User:Samuel Luo per se sounds pretty twisted. We're talking about the same guy! Doubtless, "Yueyuen" had to act in a slightly different manner; he was a useful helper in some revert wars and creating illusory support for Samuel's position on the talk page. The same goes for User:Pirate101 and User:Mr.He. User:Chinatravel, on the other hand, was meant to cover up the fact that Sam was pursuing other agendas as well, such as defending the CCP's official viewpoint on the Tiananmen massacre. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for an official response to my above paragraph(s). The pro-FG vandal/apologist is the one hiding behind the IP addresses supposedly from South Korea. See my user page for a brief list of IP addresses. Users like NuclearBunnies did not vandalize my user or user talk page, so I see no reason why I need to condemn them on my user or user talk page. It's not like I accuse you of bias or incivility on my user page, right? Or are you trying to censor me too? Do you see me demanding that you edit your user page for pro-FG bias?
I mention the less controversial alter egos because my above paragraph should show that I am still not satisfied with hazy explanations that link THAT many user accounts. If they all originated from SFO, does that mean they are necessarily the same user? And why the finding that Tom + Sam are the same people after establishing they were not earlier??? I think linking User:Chinatravel is a perfect instance of what I consider to be dangerously similar to McCarthyism - witch-hunting all pro-China users and linking them in some conspiracy theory as some kind of ridiculous network or whatever. Jsw663 21:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Appeal from Koavf

Koavf (talk · contribs · block log) recently contacted me via email, asking for an appeal by the ArbCom of his indefinite block, which was placed in November by Dmcdevit with the log summary of "Extensive block history for perpetually edit warring and disruptive behavior, but behavior is unmodified. Exhaustion of the community's patience." Koavf's reasons for his unblock are copied below:

I personally desire to be unblocked because I enjoyed editing Misplaced Pages and I was in the middle of several articles that were enjoyable for me to write. As for the community at large, I feel like I have made several thousand useful edits, including writing whole articles that were valuable and may not have been written with the quality or expediency that I brought to them (I am particularly proud of List of African Union member states by political system.) Furthermore, the contributions on Western Sahara-related articles has completely stagnated as I've been gone and there is no indication that this trend will reverse. I feel like I can engage the community as a mature member and that the block I have been given is disproportionate to the amount of quality that I added to the endeavor at large.

He also wrote that "I am seeking to be unblocked by the Arbitration Committee; I have been blocked for several months and was a very active contributor to Misplaced Pages prior to the block. I have tried several means to get unblocked, and none of them have borne fruit (e.g. the most recent was e-mailing the blocking admin, who has not responded in over a week.)"

Following some discussion on our mailing list, it was suggested that Koavf be unblocked and instead placed on standard revert parole. This seems reasonable; his block log shows multiple prior blocks for 3RR violations, and a revert parole would thus hopefully address that issue while allowing him to continue his ways as a productive editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flcelloguy (talk • contribs)

Motion for Unblock and standard revert parole (4/0/0/1)

Koavf (talk · contribs) is unblocked and placed on standard revert parole. He is hereby limited to a maximum of one content revert per page per day for one year. Each revert must be explicitly marked as such. Any such violations may result in further blocks of up to 24 hours, and multiple violations (i.e. three or more) may result in longer blocks or the resumption of the original indefinite block, depending on the administrator's discretion. Blocks should be mentioned on the requests for Arbitration page.

Clerk note: There are currently 12 active arbitrators, so a majority is 7.

Comments

(Not sure where you want this.) I don't quite understand this particular motion without a case. I don't feel vehemently about any half-year old ban of mine, but I do disagree that it should be done this way. Mostly, an arbitration case should never take anyone by surprise. The original ban was endorsed by several admins, and no one in the community was willing to unblock after an ANI discussion. If anyone (arbitrators included) think that a revert parole is a better option, it would have been better to 1) discuss with the blocking administrator and then 2) put it to the community on some noticeboard. That's normal admin courtesy. I can't avoid the feeling that, by bypassing the usual options, arbcom has essentially (whether intentionally or not) mixed up their administrator and arbitrator hats. Dmcdevit·t 07:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree this seems like a bad idea, and is without precedent in the 9 months I have been a clerk. Unless FIcelloguy wants to act directly as an admin and unblock Koavf, the Arbcom precedent would be to list the appeal as a routine request. If four or more arbitrators agree to hear the case, a full case with an evidence and workshop page would be opened. Here you are going directly to the final decision without any input from the blocking admin or other editors who discussed the case when it was reported on the noticeboard. Thatcher131 14:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Full link to discussion of indefinite block is here. Thatcher131 14:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the reason this procedure is being used is that the editor in question is blocked indefinitely, so he has no on-wiki method of requesting a reduction in the sanction against him. Therefore, he properly wrote to the Arbitration Committee, as recommended, and arbitrators apparently concluded that they could reduce the sanction as indicated without needing evidence and a workshop.
I think that procedurally, what is proposed here is the equivalent of setting up an expedited procedure ("summary docket") that the arbitrators would use for matters in which they believe ArbCom action is appropriate but the full panoply of opening a case is not necessary. I suppose last month's fast-tracked confirmation of the Robdurbar desysopping would be a procedural precedent, not that the two cases are otherwise comparable in any way. On the one hand, it would make sense that such an expedited procedure be established for less controversial items (perhaps with a caveat that this procedure could not be used if any arbitrator objected, or if more than one arbitrator objected). The counter-argument is that the experience of real-world legal systems is that such special expedited procedures quickly tend to get overused, including for matters that would benefit from more plenary consideration. Newyorkbrad 14:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
To answer a few of the qualms: I, too, was at first a little hesitant about any such appeals method. But the email from Koavf indicated that he had tried other means of recourse, including emailing the blocking admin (Dmcdevit) previously, with no reply. He attempted an unblock request in January of this year, which was denied; people told him to take his appeals process to the Arbitration Committee because he was blocked indefinitely. Whether or not it's technically a "ban" seemed a bit irrelevant; people pointed him to us, citing the appeals process. It was clear that, with that advice having been given to him, that the Arbitration Committee would be the only ones able to listen to his case and act. With that in mind and the appeals of all bans in our "jurisdiction", I was still a little bit hesitant about how to proceed. After receiving his email, I forwarded (like I would any other email pertaining to ArbCom business) his email to the mailing list and asked for thoughts on how to proceed. It was suggested by another Arbitrator that we take the option of unblocking him, and placing him on standard revert parole - his block log and prior discussions indicated that this was one of the primary reasons that hindered him from being a productive editor. Several Arbitrators agreed with this proposal, at which point I asked for advice on how to proceed - how would we treat this? Another Arbitrator responded that it should be treated like a standard appeals and placed in the "clarification" section. With sufficient time given and no objections heard, I proceeded with placing this request on here.
Regarding the lack of a complete case for this matter: this was something, as I mentioned above, that I asked for feedback on from my fellow Arbitrators, and they all seemed comfortable with this method. I saw little merit in starting a new case; unlike the typical case that we accept, there would be no need for a workshop, proposed decisions, evidence, etc. - the only thing that we were considering is whether or not to unblock this particular editor, and if so, whether or not to place him on standard revert parole. Other editors are, of course, free to comment here, but as no Arbitrator had opposed placing this unblock to a vote, I didn't see a need to vote on whether or not to "accept" a case - an Arbitrator either believes that the editor should be unblocked, or he doesn't. (Of course, they are all free to propose alternate solutions and remedies.) It seemed redundant to vote on "accepting" the case and then voting again on the one proposed action, when, in essence, anyone accepting the case would be supporting the unblock, while those against opening would be against the unblock. Again, no objections were heard at all in the time this was discussed on our mailing list, and we all looked into the circumstances surrounding his unblock carefully.
Those are the reasons why I felt comfortable proceeding with this request, having discussed this and being advised to proceed in this manner by other Arbitrators. It should also be noted that I contacted Dmcdevit as well after I placed this appeal from Koavf on here, notifying him of the appeal. Perhaps I should have contacted all the other editors who discussed the indefinite block in the first place; if so, I apologize. I - and the rest of the committee - of course respect and understand your qualms about this, but I hope I've made clear why I felt comfortable proceeding in the manner I did. (If I didn't address any of your concerns inadvertantly, please let me know and I'll do so.) Additional feedback and comments about the process or case are, as always, welcome. Thanks for your understanding. Flcelloguy (A note?) 15:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not so concerned about the lack of a case, or "jurisdiction" issues—I've always felt that simple cases should be resolved with open motions, not full cases, but the previous ArbCom never warmed to my idea—but that this block was uncontested, and ArbCom's action came out of the blue. If any of the arbitrators, upon receiving Koavf's email, felt that lifting the ban was a good idea, simply saying so as a respected administrator on ANI would have been enough. The problem here is that by using arbitration to make a simple admin decision–especially when, if you had contacted any of us who had discussed it previously, it would be clear that limiting the ban to some kind of probation is not that controversial–ArbCom seems to be limiting admin discretion in favor of sending more cases to arbitraton instead. (I have a laundry list of users community banned by adminstrators and upheld by the community who still want to be unblocked, probably several a week, if ArbCom would like to have at them all. )Dmcdevit·t 05:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this appeal should have been exposed to public. No one from the list of people who participated at the AN/I discussion have been informed of this process. I think people should be informed at least.

Anyway, as i had stated in the AN/I back on November 2006, i have no objection to see Koavf contributing again but it remains conditional (partial ban - see AN/I). I still think the same. In parallel, i don't understand that if they revert more than once a day they'd only be blocked for 24h. Why not longer? Why not putting them on a probation period with stricter conditions instead? Anyway, i assume good faith and would not object if Justin is willing to do as they say. I'd have no problems in seeing them contributing again but totally POV-free the same way they have done at Citizendium. -- FayssalF - 19:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with FayassalF. I'm surprised that the arbcom is willing to unblock someone banned with a clear community consensus per discussion on the incident noticeboard and without a strong reason to involve itself. (This does not look like a case that would be accepted if it had been brought back in November.) I therefore think this looks like bypassing the community, which should only be done when it is clear the arbcom can do a better job of resolving the dispute than the community can. That said, I would welcome Koavf back if he promises not to edit war anymore, but has he done so? If so, where? Picaroon (Talk) 21:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind the Arbitration Committee taking cases like this, so long as the community is given the opportunity of final appeal (i.e. if ArbCom reverses a ban, the community can restore the ban after another discussion). Ral315 » 02:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Two things here. If the community would have the final word than why do we have to go through here? Also, who would define the conditions? -- FayssalF - 02:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
To the first point, it wouldn't be a requirement to go through here, merely another way of reversal. Very rarely would there be a case where a ban reversed by ArbCom would be questionable (I'd argue almost never would this happen). Second, the conditions would be defined by the cases where ArbCom chooses to step in, and afterward, in the cases where someone appeals the ban on WP:AN or elsewhere, and the community agrees that the case is worth looking at. Ral315 » 02:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks and partially agree. Because i heard about a 24h sanction in case of a 3RR infraction. Isn't this applied to all users? If the unblock would be executed under such conditions than the community would surely disagree. But where, how and when? -- FayssalF - 02:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I would assume that this wouldn't apply to any short-term blocks - any ArbCom action taken on a community decision would take at least a week, presumably - I'm talking about this covering blocks of, say, 1 month or more. But since this is a rare case currently, I don't think any real rules on it need to be defined. Ral315 » 03:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Is any kind of official motion really required? This is basically a community ban. By my understand, any admin can undo a community ban, since the definition of a community ban is simply a ban that no admin is willing to undo. I would suggest that someone unblock him unilaterally and then if anyone wants him reblocked they can start a full arbcom case. --Tango 10:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that in addition to being Arbcom members, they are still members of the Misplaced Pages administration community. And as such, any one of them can decide a community ban was inappropriate and overturn it unilaterally. It's patently ludicrous to argue that the Arbcom may not do something in summary motion that they can do as ordinary administrators. It does not really need majority vote either, simply one of the admins saying "I'm dubious over this ban, if people want a ban they should take it to full Arbitration." --Barberio 10:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make and vote on such motions. Other editors may comment on the talk page)



Archives

Categories: