Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gaillimh (talk | contribs) at 05:30, 29 May 2007 (of course it is, that is the whole purpose of DRV - lets do this properly and not edit war over this). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETED We speedy delete userpages on request - that's policy.-Doc 23:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Cool Cat

I do not wish to have a former userpage which should be more than an adequate reason. I have {{db-self}}'ed the page twice but User:Ned Scott recreated it twice and revert warred over my tagging of my own former userpage for deletion. -- Cat 02:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a note there are two ANI threads on it here and here. Might want to give those an eyeball before giving an opinion. —— Eagle101 02:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep redirect There is no "user page", but only a redirect to Cat's new userpage. Over 2,000 pages still link to User:Cool Cat in discussion. Removing this redirect causes needless confusion for anyone reviewing past discussions, or simply trying to find Cat who were unaware of his name change. Removing this redirect also makes it harder to connect Cat's old block log. While he does provide a link on his new page, that's still no reason to cut off the ways people normally look for this information.

  WP:CSD#U1 points to Misplaced Pages:User page#How do I delete my user and user talk pages? for details on how to handle such situations. There it says (emphases mine): "...If there has been no disruptive behavior meriting the retention of that personal information, then the sysop can delete the page straight away in order to eliminate general public distribution of the history containing the information. If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page...." "...As a matter of practice user talk pages are generally not deleted, barring legal threats or other grievous violations that have to be removed for legal reasons; however, exceptions to this can be and are made on occasion for good reason (see also Right to vanish)..."

  This is not a Right to vanish situation, and there is no issue with real names or anything like that. There is no good reason to delete this redirect, and only the potential for confusion. -- Ned Scott 02:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Userpages can be deleted just because the owner feels like it. This may be the first time a userpage had been nominated for deletion like this. It is quite lame. The talk pages are there if anyone wonders. -- Cat 02:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  No one else has simultaneously tried to keep all their contribs, comments, etc. by changing their username, yet tried to several all relationship with the previous username. What are you trying to hide? —Centrx→talk • 02:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I'd assume good faith and assume he wants a fresh start under a new name but is still proud enough of his contributions to have everything still obvious on his new user pages. My question is, what happens to the block log if the user page gets deleted and then a new account is created with that name? Carcharoth 02:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I do not believe "what are you trying to hide" is a legitimate question. "Can you hide anything" is a better one. I am incapable of "hiding" anything. It is the deletion of a former userpage which does not affect my contribution history, block log, move log, user rename log or any other log. Since the talk page is there people can find my new username - just a bit inconveniently. -- Cat 10:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  But what is the point of you having it deleted? The effect is to inconvenience people. —Centrx→talk • 15:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  If I really wanted to "inconvenience people" I would not have put the links on my userpage. In addition if I truly wanted to "inconvenience people", I would just register a new account. -- Cat 15:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• All have to say is that this is an incredibly lame thing to be warring over/caring about at all. -- John Reaves (talk) 02:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Indeed, two words to sum up my view is ABOSOLUTELY LAME, no matter what side of debate your on. Yamamoto Ichiro (山本一郎)(会話) 02:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Have you ever wasted time or got confused because you hadn't realised that a particular name was another user under a different name? When you fail to realise that, it makes you realise how easy it is for confusion to reign unless linkage and transparancy is maintained. Carcharoth 02:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, maybe it could, but that does not justify why we need to even care about this. I would rather have more people making constructive edits to the encyclopedia, like working on articles, than wasting time on this insignificant issue. This issue is getting more attention than it needs and some articles out there which needs attention is not getting enough. Yamamoto Ichiro (山本一郎)(会話) 02:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Oh sure. Consider it taking a break. We will all do some constructive edits sooner rather than later. The exact mix differs for everyone. Carcharoth 03:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - delete User:White Cat. Hang on, is that the wrong one... :-) Seriously, if Cool/White/Chi/Out Cat wants the page history gone, delete and restore as a redirect to User:White Cat, with no page history. BUT, keep User talk:Cool Cat, and its archives, as this will contains material and discussions contributed by other people. Carcharoth 02:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  The talk pages were never nominated for deletion. I made no such attempt and do not intend to do so regardless the outcome of this MfD. All page histories were moved to my new username. -- Cat 02:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I've just been looking. Should have done that before commenting, sorry. I see that User talk:White Cat/Archive is indeed a complete record, and that the history of User:Cool Cat is already gone (wasn't it technically moved to your new name?). So what is the problem with having a "no history" redirect? If User:Cool Cat is deleted, then you leave open the possibility that someone else could start a new account with that name (unless the name change process prevents that). If there are still old references to your previous name in old Misplaced Pages pages, then that could get very confusing. Also, one thing that is still not clear is the timeline. Would you object to making clear when the transition between different names took place? Once the old sigs have been renamed to White Cat, it will no longer be clear when the transition took place. Finally, what is the difference between Special:Contributions/Cool Cat and Special:Contributions/White Cat? Carcharoth 02:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Ah, I think I see the problem. This shows that the talk page User talk:Zscout370 has been restored recently. I guess that happened after your user name change, hence the edits have been restored under the old name and not transferred to your new name. Interesting. Someone might want to raise this point with those who deal with username changes and/or developers - it seems that deleted edits are not transferred between contributions lists when usernames are changed. Carcharoth 02:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Username changes do not change the author associated with deleted revisions. So, Special:Contributions/Cool Cat contains revisions that were deleted revisions at the time of the username change, but were then restored after the username change and thus are still associated with the old username change. Also note that this means that every deleted revision authored by User:Cool Cat is still associated with that username. —Centrx→talk • 02:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Another reason to keep the page. But I'm still not clear, deleting the user page wouldn't get rid of the account, since we know people can have talk pages and not user pages, and can indeed be nothing but a contribs list (and block list), so all that has to be done is ensure no usurption of User:Cool Cat occurs in the future. Keeping User:Cool Cat as a redirect to User:White Cat is a fail-safe method to achieve that. So I'm going to vote keep. But really, this should be dealt with clearly by a guideline. Shouldn't need an MfD. Carcharoth 02:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I do not think an unsurpation of the account will occur either. User:Zscout370 18:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Given the accompanying mass signature changing, the deletion of this page serves no purpose but to be disruptive. -- tariqabjotu 02:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per above discussions. Carcharoth 02:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Changed my mind and striking out, per comments below. Carcharoth 03:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
• Question: if this page were deleted, what happens to Cool Cat's block log? I'm concerned that this desire to delete a former userpage and modify past signatures may have the effect of hiding this person's past transgressions. That may not be this editor's intent, but I do see it as a possible effect. I don't want to cast aspersions on his character, but I also think that things like prior contributions and blocks should remain transparent to all. --Kyoko 02:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  As far as I can tell, nothing happens. The account still exists, but you just get a red link in the edit history while the contribs link remains blue. And the block log and other similar pages would still exist as well. For example User:Coolcat is a redlink (and was deleted yesterday - see the log), but the block log still exists. And Cool Cat (sorry! White Cat) has links to the block logs of both his former accounts on his user page. Carcharoth 02:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Keep redirect, I've decided. I know that White Cat has been running a bot to update past signatures to his current account, but I remembered that he has run for admin in the past and also been involved with some RfCs. I don't believe the names of the RfAs and RfCs would be updated, and there is a need to maintain a clear connection between the old username and the new one, no matter what file is accessed. --Kyoko 03:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Oh yeah, and in the interest of full disclosure, I did participate in an RfC in which Cool Cat was involved, and I think I opposed him on one of his RfAs as well. I don't bear him a grudge, I just feel that there should be a clear link between old and new usernames, no matter who is involved. I used to be User:Tachikoma, but I changed my account to User:Kyoko, and I had been signing with my name for months before the official account change, just so you know. --Kyoko 03:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  RFCs, RFAs, RfArs, RfMs aren't affected. I am not under arbitration remedies (past case is logged on my userpage under history) and I have a very nice archive of my past RfAs linked on my userpage. -- Cat 11:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Your statement of "RFCs, RFAs, RfArs, RfMs aren't affected" illustrates my point: if someone were perusing the list of old RfAs and clicked on your former name, they would only end up with an empty page if the redirect is itself deleted. Furthermore, even if your bot does get every single old signature, I'm not sure that it would be able to change links like {{user2|Cool Cat}} --Kyoko 13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I am having difficulty comprehending the problem. Would you mind illustrating with an example? -- Cat 13:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I've done some searching, and some thinking, and perhaps you're right. Would only your userpage be deleted, or the talk page as well? I think that at least some Cool Cat-> White Cat connection needs to be kept, not just White Cat -> Cool Cat, if that makes any sense. People who click on any of your old Cool Cat links need to be able to find you. If at least the talk page is maintained as a redirect, I'm willing to change my decision. --Kyoko 14:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  However, you do need to make it clear, permanently, on your current page that you had prior usernames. People should not have to dig through logs to find the connection between your old and new accounts. One more thing: if you haven't already, please update your listing in the List of non-admins by edit count to reflect your new name. I would include a link, but I can't seem to find it, sorry! --Kyoko 14:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I have a lot of bookmarks using my old talk page linkage. I have no intention of deleting the older talk pages. If I wanted to really hide my history I would just register a new account with no connection to this one. A lot of people had done this in the past... I do not have such an intention. I am making my username change as public as possible. Few people are unaware of it now after this past nonsnese. While I am not required to even mention past accounts, I have already done so on my userpage. -- Cat 14:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, changed from "Keep redirect" as stated above. I'm convinced that transparency will be maintained because of the user's stated desire to maintain the old talk page and list his former usernames on his current page. Oh, and White Cat, if you are interested in updating the list of non-admins by edit count, the link is here. --Kyoko 14:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
• Question - what happens to User:Coolcat - deleted yesterday? I'm beginning to change my mind on this. As long as the deletion logs for these two pages include a link to User:White Cat, there should be no problem. That would be like a "redirect" for those who know where to look. The current deletion log for User:Coolcat is a good example: . That would mean that replacing all the sigs wasn't even needed, but it does help. Carcharoth 03:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok, as for the restoration of my talk page, I was restoring edits because I had that HD DVD code pasted there several times. So that is why I nuked it on May 1st. But, if I had some idea that this name change was being done, I would have restored it before hand, since White Cat has posted at my talk page a lot. Anyways, I believe under these circumstances, the redirects should be kept. User:Zscout370 03:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I do not believe that is anyones fault but a software bug. -- Cat 11:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. I'd like to see more time pass before considering deletion this "old" user page. There's no compelling reasons to delete the page at this time. Keeping the page would help to avoid confusion. ChazBeckett 03:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  For the record, the page has already been deleted. See the page logs. What we are discussing here is a "no history" user page that is really a redirect. Carcharoth 05:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Not really, what's being discussed is whether or not the page should be completely deleted. Yonatan 08:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  The discussion is weather or not I have any control over my userpage. I do not want to have "former" userpages. I want to get it deleted completely. -- Cat 10:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - I'm convinced that deletion doesn't hide anything. Usurption can't take place. All necessary links (talk pages, block logs, contribs lists, and so forth) are at User:White Cat or subpages thereof. Links are (or should be) in the deletion log, and this MfD is also a good record of what happened, so just delete and move on. Carcharoth 12:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  I'd like to add that the logs and links in question were still accessible through "inconvenient" links even if I didn't put them on my userpage. -- Cat 13:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Move to BJAODN Now that I think about it, this whole thing is pretty stupid. I've better shit to do. -Pilotguy hold short 13:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete For goodness' sake, Cat is kind enough to volunteer his username history at his new page, and isn't asking that the talk records be deleted. All that will happen to the many places where he signed his old name is a "red-linking." WP allows this for discreet username changes all the time; despite past controversies, Cat does do good work here, and deserves the courtesy. Xoloz 15:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  The issue is not finding User:Cool Cat from User:White Cat, but finding where User:Cool Cat, which is linked in numerous places and in all the page histories where he has commented, went off to. Who made that comment and how can he be contacted? Why are his contribs gone? What is the point? Why exactly does he want it deleted? "discreet" user name changes are where the person's real identity has been exposed or some such; is that the case here? If someone in the future gets linked to User:Cool Cat and goes through the trouble of finding out where the account moved to, why should he not then put a redirect there? Without some justification, deleting this is just inconveniencing people on a whim. —Centrx→talk • 17:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Nobody has a "right" to know where Cool Cat has gone. It is enough that, if they see White Cat, they become aware of his history. There is no good reason to go "hunting" for Cool Cat through links, if the person behind that name no longer wants it. Xoloz 17:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  Ultimately it is my userpage. Linking to my past logs is merely a courtesy on my part, I am neither expected nor required to put them. People can be inconvenienced (I do not see how) and it is not my problem. Nor is their inconvenience a reason to keep the page.

  Userpages are not a crucial aspect of a users contribution to wikipedia. People are not even expected or required to have userpages.

  -- Cat 17:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.