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About Illyric language

About Illyric language. See this link. http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4689/grabovac.htm, about fra Filip Grabovac, the author of Cvit razgovora naroda i jezika iliričkoga aliti arvackoga (...Illyric or Croat).
Or this title, from the the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result .
A dictionary by Andrija Jambrešić and Franjo Sušnik.
Title is : Lexicon Latinum interpretatione Illyrica, Germanica et Hungarica locuples : in usum potissimum studiosae juventutis / digestum ab Andrea Jambressich, Societatis Jesu sacerdote, Croata Zagoriensi Impresum: Zagrabi : Typis Academicis Societatis Jesu, , 1742 . Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result .
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 . Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

From the Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..
The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata".
Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html Kubura 19:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not possible to understand what you want to show with the above quotations.--Giovanni Giove 22:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The article should be named Jakov Mikalja.
Also, I supposed which questions might arose, so I've intercepted them. Kubura 13:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

And, again, "Serbocroatian"?
What Serbs are you talking about?
What are you doing, Giove? Playing dumb?
Ignoring and deleting my data I've posted here???
That's vandalism!
POV-ising with inserting adjective "Serbo-" where isn't any there and deleting any lines that link to Croatian language and deleting (???) the sourcenames in original Croatian (you've deleted the lines Blago jezika slovinskoga illi slovnik u komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski i Diacki). Kubura 14:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

If its hard for you to click on the link that speak about Mikalja, here're the scans from the page .
On the first scan you have following text, a page from Croat-Italian-Latin dictionary:
hrrivat. Hervat; Croata; Illyricus, i. Croata; ae.
hrrivaçia. Hervarska zemglja; Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum, ci. Croatia, ae.
On the second scan , there's the front page. Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Mikalja/Micaglia is not just Croat, or just Italian

@Giovanni: Please stop reverting everything. Be constructive.
Do not just change Croatian to Illyrian or Serbocroatian etc. First mentioning of Serbocroatian is in 18th century. Equality between name "Illyrian language" and "Croatian" is documented and well known, so it is not unsubstantiated. He is known by name "Mikalja" not only in Croatia, so don't refer to his name like it is only in Croatia.
@Kubura: He is definitely Italian, and Croat too. So please leave adjective "Italian" where it is.
--Plantago 11:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Micaglia himself declared to be Italian. End of discussion. All other claims are totally sourced: most of all Illyric does not coincide with Croatian. Best regards--Giovanni Giove 11:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

First - I wrote "Italian...of Croatian origin", and that is what he said too. Is there a problem with that? Napoleon was Frenchman, but Corsican too. Stalin was Great Russian, but Georgian by origin. You are Italian, but proud of your Venetian origin. Venetians are/were not Italian by ethnicity, but are Italians by nationality. So, he is Italian by nationality, and declared that he had non-Italian origin.

Micaglia is not of Croat origin, but of 'South Slavic': you cant claim is just 'Croat'. YOU have to tell why, according to you , is "Croat".

Actually, no. He didn't say he is of South Slavic origin. He said he is "Slovin"/Illyrian by language. He was not Czech, Russian, Bulgarian or Slovenian speaking. Then, we have to ask ourselves what was he in that case? He was a) Italian by nationality b) Catholic Christian c) speaking "Slovinski". Can we ask them to say would he call himself a Croat? No, not directly. But scholars, both from Italy and Croatia, with some exemptions like Milan Resetar, who gives "Serbocroatian" origin, regard him today as a Croat, based on the information from his history and works, and Misplaced Pages always gives emphasis on majority opinion. Links confirming this claim are stated in References and External links sections. --Plantago 08:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Second, your statement "most of all Illyric does not coincide with Croatian" is not completely clear. What does it mean? Is it in connection to the new section you just added to the article, claiming that Illyrian is not Croatian because Croatian was standardized in 19th century? When was Italian or German standardized? Does it mean that language has to be standardized to exist!? What are your references for such claims. I will put "original research" mark on that section, because you didn't cite any source. Please read articles about your language, German, English, Croatian, Serbian, Serbo-Croatian, whatever, and then try to write relevant addition to article. Just to mention, this article is not your property, so you can just delete work of anyone but you, including referenced literature. Maybe expert opinion would be good answer? --Plantago 12:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Italian was studied and standardized in XIV etc. German shortly later, Croat in XIX cent. Before XIX cent. nobody ever talked about a 'Croatian' language outside historical Croatia (such us in Dalmatia, Ragusa or whatever). There are no linguistic distinction between the 3 serbocroatian dialects (if you like it....). If the 'serbocroatian' word is now unpopular in Croatia for political reasons, find an equivalent word. But don't claim for what is not yours (or belongs just in part). The dictionary is based on 'Bosnian' language; so, why it is not a 'Bosnian Dictionary)?... can you claim that Bosnia is or was part of 'Croatia'? Best regards--Giovanni Giove 11:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

So back to the point - this is NOT article about any language, but the guy called Giacomo Micaglio AND Jakov Mikalja, who was Jesuit and lexicographer. All other is in the wrong place (how old is his name, what is illyrian, what is Bosnian etc.).
His name, whether created in 13th or 20th century should be mentioned without any restrictions, if he is known in some parts of the world (at least Slavic-language speaking countries - from Russia to Croatia) by that name. It may be violation of NPOV of Slavic historiographers and linguists, but it is not on us to judge is it right or not, as it is against Misplaced Pages policy. It is not on us to judge is Illyrian different from Croatian, is it also Serbian or what, because relevant (please, relevant here means linguistic) sources (Italian also!) explicitly mention Illyric of that time as equivalent to Croatian, or if you want me to say this way - language which is spoken between people on Eastern coast of Adriatic see, covering not only Dalmatia and Republic of Ragusa, but also southern parts of Bosnia, which are oriented to Adriatic (actually, medieval Bosnian kingdom and Ottoman province of Bosnia ruled big parts of Dalmatia for a long time). The aim of his work was the help in counter-reform struggle in Dalmatia and other places, to get people back to proper Catholic faith, as it is already written in the article. People who he was trying to get back to the "mother church" were definitely NOT Muslim (whose self-identification was Turks or Poturica, nowadays Bosniaks) or Orthodox Christians (identified as Serbs), but former Catholic Christians who became Protestants, which were and are identified as Croats. Remember that the main difference between people of that time was religion, especially in Balkans (unfortunately, also today).
And finally - Giovanni's remark about standardization of Croatian, I have to disappoint him - language standardization has nothing with language existence. People in Italy spoke something, first Vulgar Latin and then Italian even before Divine comedy, as synthesis between Southern Italian and Tuscan Italian was written. Even though, Croatian was not standardized in XIX century (1850), only the current standard was than accepted and joint agenda agreed with Serbs, and only from that time noun Serbo-Croatian exists. Before that, there were various standards, much older (ironically, one of them based on prints in Venice in 1595 and Rome in 1604). Please read Croatian language#History. If he has some new information to discuss, I am inviting him to join that article's discussion and leave poor Giacomo/Jacob/Jakov rest in peace.--Plantago 06:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You agree with me in the basic point. The difference between the different former-Jugo people is not based on the language, so that it's a nonsense to attribute the therm 'Croat' to Micaglia's work: Serbs and Croats share the same dialects. It's a nonsense to called this dialects 'Croats', just because they were collected by Catholic (BTW Italian). ....or do you want to say he talked just with catholics?... or that Muslim and orthodox had different dialects? So... please!

You asked me about the standardization of Italian I just answered,: it was the 1st European language to be standardized (see. De vulgari eloquentia).

Finally, if you trust in me or not, I'm not a nationalist, and I don't hate Croatia. But I'm not responsible of the many hoaxes present in the official Croatian history (I'm no happy to tell you this). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:33, 2 June 2007

Giovanni Giove? You've written above "Serbs and Croats share the same dialects". In short: Croats are the only speakers of Chakavian (subdialects with Ikavian, Ekavian and Jekavian speech) and Kajkavian (subdialects with Ekavian and Ikavian speech) dialect. Shtokavian dialect also has more "subdialects", that can be referred exclusively to one nation. Slavonian Shtokavian (mostly Ikavian speech) is spoken exclusively by the Croats. East Bosnian Shtokavian (mostly Jekavian speech) is spoken among Croats, Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and as minor, among Serbs (on the mountain Ozren). Kosovo-Resava Shtokavian (Ekavian speech) is spoken exclusively by the Serbs. Zeta-Sanjak Shtokavian (Ijekavian speech) is spoken mostly by Montenegrins, Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Serbs. Bosnian-West Herzegovina-Dalmatian Shtokavian (Ikavian speech) is spoken exclusively by Croats. Dubrovnik Shtokavian (Ijekavian speech) was in past an individual, today is more similar with East Herzegovina Shtokavian (but still has its "specialties"). East Herzegovina Shtokavian (Ijekavian) is spoken by the Serbs, Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks), Montenegrins and Croats. Vojvodina-Šumadija Shtokavian (Ekavian speech) is spoken exclusively by the Serbs. Torlakian dialect doesn't belong to this group. In fact, this is a ...interdialect, transitional from Serb language to Bulgarian and Macedonian language. Exclusively spoken by Serbs. There's a small enclave of Croats in Romania that speaks with this dialect, but that doesn't change the picture, that's the dialect of Serb language. So, you see, it's not the case that "Croats and Serbs share the same dialects." Kubura 20:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I suggest that you open article about Illyric language, and we will chat about this there. In the meantime, unsourced and misunderstood identification of dialects and languages and "Controversies" section will be deleted. For hoax about this issue, way this guy wrote his name etc. please see Italian encyclopaedia. --Plantago 08:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Ital. books are OK about history, just like German, French (or whatever) books. Croatian books will reach the same level in few years; it's enough to give to the democracy the proper time to push out all the Nationalistic debrishes of the Communist and Post-communist regimes. Don't delet again the paragraph; it is in topic, and it is normal to add when a wrong concept is normally regarded as true (and this is, without discussion, the present case).--Giovanni Giove 09:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove, it's sad and awful to see such statements written ("the books"). You're underestimating, undervalueating and belittleing the scientific and cultural work of small peoples. Maybe Croats aren't numerous nation, we aren't rich, but that doesn't mean that we live in stone age. If you think that "proper" scientific approach is one where you give up your cultural heritage to anyone who wants to usurpate it, you're wrong. Why haven't you asked yourself what evil has been done by Italian fascists in Croatia and Slovenia, while Italian "books" and politicians romanticize Mussolini's rule? Kubura 21:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. I asked you to look at Italian encyclopedia and use it as the source for this article, if you think that Croatian sources are biased. Second, your paragraph is poorly written, with unsourced statements, original research (you state your own undocumented claims and opinions) and it doesn't belong here, so that is why I deleted it, not because it is about Illyrian-Croatian-Serbocroatian language dispute. Why can't you write something here on talk page, and work on it together with others, until we have consensus? Are you on some kind of crusade? If you don't want me or anybody else to delete it, than move it here and let's discuss from word to word. Additionally, I found international sources for other Mikalja's name spellings, so please don't delete it. Cheers,--Plantago 09:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionaly, I am very disappointed how rude you are. I had added few links, and made few changes, and you simply reverted it all, instead adding your paragraph. Either you don't know how to properly work but only revert, or it was intentionally?--Plantago 09:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Plantago, I know about the problem.
I've seen a link where it states that Jakov was born in Peschici, on peninsula of Gargano.
In fact, the link from Italian domain, Reportonline, , speaks about Latino-Croat dictionary (Una storia secolare culminata nel vocabolario Latino-Croato Che i gesuiti usarono per portare la Controriforma in Croazia).
I've also seen the line "Egli si definitiva salvo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità ed originario, appunto, di Peschici".
I respect that. I don't deny that. Unless someone made a "hairdressing" of data.
Regarding the history of Croatian language, on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik, I wrote a bunch of text with a bunch of links to the library of HAZU, Croatian academy of sciences and arts. Some of those links contain scanned pages of the works that deal with Croatian, Illyrian, use of Croatian language in previous centuries (not just in 20th century, as one user said). But, Giovanni Giove ignored that. In fact, he said: . "Kubura's comments are false, Kubura was NEVER able to prove that Giovanni Giove's edits are wrong". Yeah, wright, starting with the language. Kubura 07:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Take a break, poor Kubura. You wrote nothing in Ragusa talk page. Nobody deny that Illyrics texts were wrotten in Ragusa. It's you that deny that also Italian texts were wrotten.

Where have I denied that? Or you're playing dumb again?
If you remember, I've written on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik: "...They (higher social classes) spoke and used Italian language, only to differ them from the serfs and other lower social classes. That is the case that existed all over Europe. ...". on 11 August 2006, 08:35.
On 13 February 2007, 12:38, I've written:"Third, Ragusean Dalmatian language is not the same as Italian language, neither belongs to the same subgroup of Romanic languages".
I just disagree with someone's overestimations of use of Italian language, as well as of presence of Italians. Do you know the information that women rarely spoke Italian?
In contemporary Croatia the Esperanto texts are also written, exclusively by highly educated people, but that doesn't make Croatia as Esperanto country. Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"Hrvatski leksikon" (edition from 1995) speaks about Mikalja as a "descendant of Croat refugees from Dalmatia, that went into refuge (into Italy) because of Ottoman advance".Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

On the page from Matica hrvatska (link added, text by Vladimir Horvat), the author speaks about the Croat origins of Jakov Mikalja (and explains them). Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Name

This is an article about an Italian guy called Giacamo Micaglia. The Croatian transaltion of his name is just a translation, and it was never used by the guy. His only name is Giacomo Micaglia. He can't be classified of Croat origin. Mikalija is anyway inserted (as a translation)--Giovanni Giove 13:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

About his name

From the link . "GRAMMATIKA TALIANSKA U KRATH(!)O ILLI KRATAK NAUK ZA NAUCITTI LATINSKI JEZIK. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove. Loreto, 1649. ..."
After the preface, there's an intro to grammar Grammatika talianska u kratho illi kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove". (Italian Grammar in short lines or short way to learn Latin. In Slovinic written by father Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove).
There's a picture of that page in "Hrvatski leksikon", by the article that speaks about Jakov Mikalja. Kubura 21:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversy

So, let's do some work with last Giovanni Giove amandment. Here is "Controversy" section:
Micaglia's Dictionary is often presented as a Croatian dictionary . - By whom, and who is opposed to that, if it is "often presented"?.
The dictionary, anyway, is better described by the word Serbocroatian, because the present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects and because Micaglia collected words of different South Slavic dialects , outside the present day Croatia (mainly in Bosnia). - How he could collect words only outside present day Croatia, if he was in Dubrovnik/Ragusa, and not in Bosnia at all? Bosnian dialect is not Bosnian language, but Shtokavian dialect, spoken by many of Bosnian citizens. Who qualified you to "better describe it as Serbocroatian"? Language then is not as language now. Original research..
Futhermore the therm Illyric formerly described all the slavic dialects spoken in the Balkans, without regard of religions, and location; all these dialects were still vernacular and not already developed into a Croatian (or Serbian) national language. - Source for the claim? Do you have linguist reference of some kind for this? Original research.
That why the word Illyric shall be reffered to all the former Yugoslavian dialects; it can consequently be properly described by the therm Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). - I see what you mean. Definitely you cannot do that, even was it truth, and it didn't, because Mikalja didn't include eastern dialects and only a little of northern dialects anyhow. It appears to me that you have an idealistic approach: They all speak the common language, so let's say he belongs to everybody, forget that nationalistic quarrels. Well, that can be truth or not, but you have to prove that Illyric is equal to Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). Mikalja belongs to Croatian culture (and Italian, of course), not Serbian or Bosniak, and because of that is regarded as one of the first Croatian lexicographers. Languages develop. Do you think that Vuk Karadzic is regarded by anyone in Croatia or Serbia as lexicograph and reformer of Serbocroatian?. Unsupported claims.
After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja. There are older works, even before Yugoslavia, and also during Yugoslavia, mentioning him as one of foundations of Croatian written literature
A similar problem regard Micaglia himself, often presented as the Croatian linguist Jakov Mikalja. Thus Micaglia himself declared to be Italian, and Mikalja is a recent translation of the Italian name. - Well, this is the claim I see from you all the time. Where is the proof? I mentioned other two official ways of writing his name, together with sources. Pronountiation is the same as Croatian name, just ortography is different. He never said he is Italian by ethnicity, but of Italian nationality - it means he is citizen of one of Italian countries (Kingdom of Naples, Italy didn't exist at that time as one country)--Plantago 13:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Works about Jakov Mikalja

Vladimir Horvat wrote about him.
He explained Mikalja's Croat origin in a symposium held in Ancona, when speaking about Croat Jesuits lexicographers of 17th century.
The work is:
Vladimir Horvat: I lessicografi gesuiti del Seicento tra le due sponde: Bartol Kašić - Cassius - Cassio (Pag, 1575-1650, Roma), e Jakov Mikalja - Mica(g)lia (Peschici, 1601-1654, Loreto). Homo adriaticus - identitt`a culturale e autocoscienza attraverso i secoli, Atti del convegno internazionale di studio organizzato dalla Accademia Marchigiana di Scienze e Lettere ed Arti, Ancona, 9-12 novembre 1993. Edizioni Diabasis, Reggio Emilia, 1998, str. 105.-116.
He also had an article, there's also a link on the internet; though, the text is in Croatian. This reference is from that article.
Still, I hope this'll help. Kubura 21:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't.--Giovanni Giove 22:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

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