Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Petri Krohn

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In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 15:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 17:59, 25 December 2024 (UTC).

Petri Krohn (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

Long-term pattern of attempts to represent private fantasies as historical fact coupled with hostile attitude towards any criticism, regularly leading to ethnic insults against Baltic editors.

Desired outcome

Petri Krohn should refrain from activities that harm Misplaced Pages and are prohibited by Misplaced Pages policy, most importantly, pushing private fantasies as fact and persistently bashing editors perceived as "pro-Estonian". The incivility must be stopped immediately and unconditionally. If stopping disruptive editing -- including WP:NPOV violations -- turns out to be impossible, Petri Krohn should refrain from editing all articles relating to Soviet Union, Baltic states, or their history.

Description

Petri Krohn has, over a period of at least six months, displayed a consistent and persistent pattern of WP:NPOV violations, especially in articles having to do with the topics of Soviet occupation and Baltic republics; furthermore, instead of engaging in civil discussion, he has resorted to numerous personal attacks and ethnic slurs.

To be sure, having a WP:POV is no crime, and biased people can still do good work on Misplaced Pages as long as they follow reasonable precautions — such as meticulously following the sources. Unfortunately, Petri Krohn has consistently put his biases before the sources, not finding it beneath him to invent whole new theories to support his POV, and then representing these unsourced and unsourcable theories as fact, both in Misplaced Pages main space and talkpages. When contested, Petri Krohn routinely resorts to abuse, from personal attacks, accusations of Holocaust denial -- certainly amongst the worst insults that can be directed at a Wikipedian -- to various attempts of 'gaming the system'. Such behaviour has created a hostile and sometimes outright uncivil environment, as well as led to a number of revert wars.

Repeated attempts to discuss these issues with Petri Krohn have failed; see the section #Attempts to get rid of discussion of his misdeeds below for details.

Representing pet theories as fact runs contrary to the First Principle of Misplaced Pages -- the WP:NPOV. Inability to deal with reasonable criticism, and attempts to intimidate and harass his way out of that rather than responding, aggravate this problem, by making it nearly impossible to work out civil solutions to disputes. Such conduct harms Misplaced Pages in several ways, from reduction of reliability to creating a toxic editing environment.

Evidence of behavior issues

Attacks, assumptions of bad faith and insults against opposing editors - WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF

This secion is for diff-s about Petri Krohn's assumptions of bad faith and namecalling on any editors dareing of contradict him.

Assumption of bad faith of Alexia Death
Calling Digwuren a troll for requesting explanation
Calling Digwuren WP:SPA:
Accusing the post-WW2 British government and MI6 of promoting and sponsoring terrorism
Accusation of "unconstructive editing" in a {{hangon}} tag:
Unwarranted accusation of "canvassing":
Accusation of an editor being a "bot":
Unwarranted accusations of "personal attack" in order to avoid responding to criticism: , , , , ,
Other miscellaneous baseless accusations:
Referring to proponents of Soviet occupation as a "Baltic gang" of "ethno-fascist POV pushers"

Baseless accusations of puppetry

Petri Krohn brought a WP:RFCU over people he knew full well (also ) to be distinct, solely for purposes of harassment and intimidation: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Digwuren

In the process, Petri Krohn, following the same pattern described above, advanced a weird baseless private theory regarding the users in question.
When the RFCU failed (but not after a lot of disruption caused by RFCU personnel's misunderstanding of Estonian network architecture), he switched to claims of meatpuppetry:
This failure did not hold him from asking to even widen the scope of this fishing expedition:

Accusation of meatpuppetry in discussion of the proposed and withdrawn article of Estland:

Miscellaneous accusations of puppetry: , "reverted (#3) meatpuppet", ,

Spurious accusations of (various editors) of hate speech: ,

Baseless accusation of "harassing": , ,

Baseless accusations of stalking

Frivolous complaint on WP:AN/I:

Baseless accusations of Holocaust denial

Regardless of the fact that Petri Krohn has already been reprimanded by the ArbCom, he continues his vicious accusations of Holocaust denial against those who disagree with him on one or another topic:

"Anyway, I created Category:Holocaust in Estonia and Estonian war crimes trials, 1961. The later one seems to be a honeypot for Estonian Holocaust deniers" (a clear assault on Estonian users in general)
offensive edit summary: "this is total Holocaust denial bullshit"
edit summary provided for a talk page edit: "Holocaust denial"
"removal of valid cats may be WP:VANDAL or Holocaust denial or both."
"reverted WP:VANDAL / Holocaust denial)" (this edit summary was a comment for Krohn's revert of Digwuren's edit)
Claim that the proposed laws in Estonia, Latvia and EU to criminalise occupation denial would be "mandating hate speech":

Spurious accusations of bad faith

, , , , , , ,

Conspiracy theory of bad faith based on ideas knew to be incorrect:

Abuse of dispute tags to induce unreasonable doubt

Attaching {{POV-title}} to articles without appropriate explanation on the talk page: , , ,

Attaching {{totallydisputed}} tag to articles over frivolous reasons (once, a wording dispute, sometimes not explained at all): , , , , ,

Attaching {{POV}} to article without accompanying explanation on the talk page: , , ,

Attaching {{POV-statement}} to article without accompanying explanation on the talk page:

Abuse of IP-based user tags for intimidation purposes

The intent to use these tags for intimidation purposes is made evident in , a sort of excuse following up , with whom Petri Krohn appears to agree.

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Displays of ethnic bigotry

Edit summary of :

“

Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.

”

“

Now that I have more than 200 characters available, I will rephrase the comment: You User:Beatles Fab Four, as an pro-Russian editor, should forget the insult and support this formulation, as it gives support to the Russian view that many Estonians are racists, even giving credibility the the depiction of Estonians as born again Nazis.

”

“

I agree. The Balts who wrote this made a good job in presenting their state as an "ethnofascist" police state.

”

“

Why is it that one Swede and one Finn have to alone defend both the Russian and the neutral point-of-view in this article, againt a horde of agressive and hostile POV pushers from Estonia? Up to now there has been virtually no participation from Russia.

”

“

Articles nominated for deletion by ethnic POV pushers: Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) and Estonian SSR (independent).

”

(Note that there is no reason whatsoever besides WP:Canvassing, or perhaps WP:Trolling, to post Estonia-related AfD to Portal:Russia.)

(similar at )

“

Speedy keep - When I first saw this article, I thought it was Estonian nationalist POV-pushing to delegitimize the Estonian SSR (Exactly the opposite of what the nominators of this and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) claim.) I first considered suggesting a merge to ESSR, but after seeing the related Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) article I understood its logic. The deletion proposal is an effort to push a Estonian POV in the wake of the Estonian - Russian Bronze Soldier conflict, possibly bad faith.

”

, , :

“

Hitler was helpfull in creating an ethnically pure Estonia: in 1940 he "called home" the Baltic Germans, by 1942 he declared Estonia Judenfrei.

”

Edit summary of :

“

reverted: Misplaced Pages is not Estonia, Soviet symbols are not banned by law and do not need lustration.

”

“

It seems to me, that that you are trying to dismiss the trials and the evidence as "Soviet propaganda". This is a common atitude among Estonians, as evident in the on-line comments to one of the sources: Arvamused artiklile Omakaitse omakohus

”

Disruptive reverts without an explanation, obstructionism - WP:DE

This secion is for diff-s about presistent disruptive and reverting without even an attempt to reach consensus.

Disruptive editing in Lydia Koidula He presistently attempts to replace mentions of Governorate of Livonia to plain Livonia against connsensus on talk. Maybe this should be WP:TE?
Edit warring, 3 reverts within 24 hours being a usual feature, sometimes breaks the 3 revert rule. Refuses to listen, when urged to stop edit warring, after he is spared of the block (!).
Unexplained removal of sourced reference to Stimson Doctrine:
Inciting another editor, Cmapm to avoid "talk pages, or other normal dispute resolution processes" as "You will be talked to death.":
Unexplained disagreement of removing useless {{POV}} tags (see also Abuse of dispute tags to induce unreasonable doubt above):
Attempts to add a blog and a forum as source references to Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, against reigning concensus on the talk page, merely because he agreed with their ideas (thus, in violation of WP:COI), in concert with M.V.E.i (currently blocked for a month):

Attempts to get rid of discussion of his misdeeds

Petri Krohn has repeatedly deleted discussions of his misdeeds, usually without comment. He is, however, aware of the impropriety of such actions, as is evidenced by his comment in a different matter.

In the Big Sock Fishing incident described above, he removed all the objections made before the checkuser was actually run, on the pretext of moving them to the discussion page. No trace was left of the original objections on the main page, supporting the suspicion that his goal was merely make sure the checkuser administrator wouldn't see these objections before actually running the procedure.
"→Cmapm on Estonian SSR - I do not want to be involved in any finger pointing: removed dif" (justification: )
Removal of warnings left at his userpage:
Repeated attempts to sweep away concerns (in principle, similar to these here) regarding his conduct on Bronze Soldier of Tallinn: , , , ,

WP:OWN violations

"restored Directorate - Why do you not create your own articles to fool around with?"

Evidence of contribution issues

It should be noted that this evidence section is mainly confined to the time since May.

Tendentious editing - WP:NPOV, WP:POINT, WP:TE

This section is for samples of tendentious editing. Petri Krohn's possibly most unusual behavioural aspect, the prospensity to construct elaborate fictitious ideas influenced by WP:POV and then present them as fact, also goes here.

Non-factually listing Estonian Government in Exile in List of Pro-Axis Leaders and Governments or Direct Control in Occupied Territories complete with a remark that such a stance lasted until 1992. If it was true, it would have meant that Estonian government was the only pro-axis government in 1945-1992:
Making spurious claims of "religious prosecution" in Estonia, under the deceptive edit summary of "balanced POV":
A whole-cloth invention of "unification of Estonia" as an "aim" of the Estonian National Awakening, accompanied with unsourced and unsourcable speculation based on this fake fact:
Attempt to represent the Nazi-era puppet government for Estonian territories as a local initiative: , , , , ,

In this, attempting to non-factually imply Hjalmar Mäe, this puppet governments leader, was a head of state or head of government of Estonia:

Attempt to pass an unsourced wild idea as the null hypothesis, and have other editors prove a negative:
Repeated attempts to include Latvia in the article Ethnocracy, thus implicitly mischaracterising it (due to universal consensus against it becoming very apparent, these attempts appear to have ceased by now): , , , , , , , ,

In it, attempts to include Latvia along with Estonia: , , , ,
Also, incitements to do a WP:POVFORK: , , , ,

Attempts to claim that Estonian soldiers forced to serve in Waffen-SS were fascists, or that honouring them constitutes Neo-Nazism in Estonia: ,

Unsourced and unsourcable attempts to classify Aili Jõgi as a terrorist: , , , , ,

Baseless claims of Estonian government discriminating against minorities: ,

Attempts to present Soviet occupation of Baltic states as unreal or dubious

Attempt to represent "Baltic occupation myth" as a real myth: ,

Attempt to replace reference to occupation with "incorporation": , , , , , , , , , ,

Claims that to refer to the occupation would constitute hate speech: , , , "reverted hate speech", , , , "reverted hate speech"

Plain claims of (unreasonable) doubt: , , ,

Plain denial: , ,

Plain claims of historical revisionism: ,

Reference to (non-existent) "propaganda offices" of Baltic states:

Pushing a number of weird ideas about discontinuity of Estonia as facts

The apparent basic ideas behind this campaign are apparently outlined at .

Attempt to represent a Soviet puppet government, the Commune of the Working People of Estonia, , as a legal alternative government of Estonian territory: , ,

In this, making up a ridiculous criterion for legitimacy: "(1) restored reference. 2) Restored sourced information: a) Most of Red Estonia was liberated from German occupation b) Tallinn government was never recognized by Commune)"

Attempts to represent Estland, a German name for Estonia, as a territory and/or country distinct from Estonia: , , , , presentation of this weird theory, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

In it, attempts to represent Eestimaa, an Estonian name for Estonia, with the full meaning of Estonian land, as another name of Estland, distinct from Estonia: , , , ,
In it, the fabulous "time travel irredentism" theory:

Attempts to construe a period (1917-1918) of Estonian history as a distinct state: , , , , , , , , , , , , , (famously voting 'stop this madness' in a deletion article),

(This also concerns a number of edits to the article Estonia (1917-1918). The article is now deleted, and the diffs are, unfortunately, unavailable.)

Attempts to represent 1940 as the end year of Republic of Estonia: ,

Attempts to construe a period (1990-1991) of Estonian history as a distinct state: , , ,

(This also concerns a number of edits to the article Estonia (1990-1991). The article is now deleted, and the diffs are, unfortunately, unavailable.)

Attempts to present as real a fictitious state Estonian SSR (independent): ,

(This also concerns a number of edits to the article Estonian SSR (independent). The article is now deleted, and the diffs are, unfortunately, unavailable.)

Attempts to present the Russian Empire's Autonomous Governorate of Estonia as a state: , ,

Unsourced and unsourcable stories about "annexation of Northern Livonia": ,

Nonfactual, unsourced and unsourcable attempts to claim that Arnold Rüütel preceded Lennart Meri as the president or head of state of Republic of Estonia: , ,

Miscellaneous, hard to classify:

The personal theory of Estonian SSR's "separation from USSR"

In a number of articles, Petri Krohn has attempted to advance unsourced and unsourcable elements of his private interpretation of the events surrounding restoration of Estonian independence, apparently based mostly on personal likes and dislikes regarding policy. At the time of this writing, a full compendium can be found at User:Petri Krohn/Restoration of Estonian independence.

Attempts to imply illegitimacy of the citizenship continuation laws in force in Estonia and Latvia: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Plain comparison of the laws, which are not unusual among citizenship laws of modern Europe, with Nuremberg laws:

Attempts to claim disenfranchisement and/or denaturalization took place in these countries: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , "Reverted nationalist POV", , , ,

Unsourced and unsourcable assertion of apartheid in Estonia and Latvia:

A truly bizarre rant directed at Congress of Estonia, with various accusations:

Attempts to present "theory of Estonian legal continuity" as something dubious: , , , ,

, , ,

Various peculiar, but invariably nasty theories surrounding the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn

Claim of defacement:
Insinuations of a military coup d'etat and improper secrecy on Estonian government's part: , "restored stable intro" (mislabelled), , "merged and restored stabile intro" (mislabelled), "restored stable introduction" (mislabelled), , , ,

Attempts to give undue weight to city property claims into the monument. In reality, the mayor mentioned possibility of such a claim once, in general discussion of the situation; no actual legal claim to the effect was ever filed. Reading Petri Krohn's edits, however, you might think that the militarists (see above) committed theft of precious city property: , ,

In support of this weird idea, attempts to (falsely) overstress City of Tallinn as the erector of the monument:

Attempts to display the monument as irretrievably destroyed, typically "demolished":

Attempt to WP:POVFORK the article in order to make it seem like the monument was destroyed:

Characterisation of a reputed newspaper's webbed article describing an emergent Internet phenomenon in the wake of the rioting as "bad taste attack page":

Disparaging, non-encyclopedic, unsourced and unsourcable remarks in Misplaced Pages's main namespace regarding Estonia's handling of war graves:

Baseless claims of Estonian-run "concentration camps":

Special addendum: prelude to this WP:RFC/U

Since the proposal for a WP:RFC/U was first made, in an aftermath of Petri Krohn's flat refusal to respond to criticism, and in a glaring illustration of his inability to deal with criticism, Petri Krohn has made two major inappropriate attempts to "just make the problem go away". First, he turned to Neil, and attempted to convince him to extrapolitically ban Digwuren. (To his credit, Neil has categorically distanced himself.)

Secondly, User:Petri Krohn filed a frivolous WP:AN/I at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Korp! Estonia on wheels, reiterating a number of baseless accusations, and essentially making the same request. Notably, in this WP:AN/I, he attempted to represent this WP:RFC/U here as a "retaliation" to his "request for advice" of Neil:

“

After I first announced my intentions by asking for advise from User:Neil, Digwuren and his group of "volunteers" have been preparing to counterattack, by filing a WP:RFC/U against me. I find this action to be yet an other indication of bad faith.

”

This is untrue, as can be ascertained by comparing the relevant timestamps. Furthermore, this is not only untrue; it's a knowing lie, as the initial mention of WP:AN/I not only predates the "request for advice" by more than 8 hours; it was made on User talk:Petri Krohn, his very own talk page. Any reasonable person would conclude that he must have seen it, and thus, he must have been aware that this version of timeline was wrong.

Applicable policies and guidelines

The most important policies applicable to this WP:RFC/U are WP:NPOV, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:NOR. Other policies and guidelines are listed above, next to the diffs.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

I, Digwuren, have contacted Petri Krohn regarding the problem. The attempt failed. (Note that Petri Krohn's nominal response makes an explicit point about not even reading the complaint.) There have been earlier attempts to discuss some of the issues raised here, mainly on Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, which are not listed here.
I, User:Alexia Death, have asked this user to reconsider not answering the claims presented by Digwuren and have failed as I have not been deemed worthy of reply.
I, User:Suva, have asked this user to reply to the claims by User:Digwuren and got no reasonable reply.

Petri Krohn was already admonished for tag abuse and poor behaviour inMisplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Occupation_of_Latvia/Proposed_decision back in February 2007. The outcome of that arbitration case was to place the article Occupation of Latvia under probation, the terms being "If any editor makes disruptive edits, they may be banned by an administrator from this and related articles, or other reasonably related pages." While the other particpants in that previous case have since moderated their behaviour, Petri Krohn has continued disruptive edits in articles and pages that are related, i.e. Baltic/Soviet. The evidence in this case demonstrates this continued disruption. Martintg 01:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, a number of issues mentioned here were raised in objections to Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Digwuren. All of them have gone unanswered, even unresponded. Petri Krohn has made an attempt to hide some of them.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

Other users who endorse this summary

Biruitorul 22:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Martintg 00:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
DLX 03:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
--E.J. 04:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
--3 Löwi 05:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC) (Disclaimer: I, 3 Löwi, editor since 2005, was accused by Petri Krohn of being a sockpuppet of Digwuren, editor since 2007. As a result of the checkuser proceedings, I was first blocked by administrators indefinitely, and subsequently served a reduced one-week block for allegedly abusing Misplaced Pages as probable sock-puppeteer of Klamber and DLX.)
Pēteris Cedriņš 06:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Staberinde 11:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Turgidson 11:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
--Lysy 13:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:Dc76 16:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

This RfC is filed by a single-purpose-account, who registered on Misplaced Pages in the wake of the the Bronze Soldier controversy, with an obvious aim of waging the Russian-Estonian propaganda war on Misplaced Pages. His contributions so far are limited to tendentious editing, disruptive editing, trolling and personal attacks. In the last two months he has summarily reverted most of my contributions to Estonia related articles, usually in under ten minutes. <paranoia> I suspect that he is not only stalking me, but also using some automated process to alarm him of my edits.</paranoia> During this time I have created 11 new Estonia related articles, while he and his supporters have managed to delete at least three articles.

This RfC was started after I asked an impartial administrator to block him indefinitely for complete failure to accept and understand Misplaced Pages's basic principle of neutral point of view. This RfC may be his last attempted defence, before his case goes to WP:ArbCom.

Of the accusations presented here, only one has any merit: some of my edit summaries may have been open to interpretations, some may even have offended or provoked other users. In the future, I will try to be more careful with my edit summaries.

Difs

If you intend to to endorese the "Statement of the dispute" presented above (not my response, but the original accusation), I ask you to check all the 323 difs presented, and verify that they in fact support the accusations. More important, please check the context of the edits, including the preceding edits.

I will provide refutations for each of the 323 difs, once I know that I am not shoting at a moving target (reference numbers will not change). In the meantime, see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Korp! Estonia on wheels.

Most of the accusations of adding objectionable material are in fact restoring material and edits removed or reverted by User:Digwuren as part of his constant edit warring.

I will for now only respond to two of the other difs, in both cases the accusation of improper conduct is laughable, but indicative of the quality of the other accusations.

In this, attempting to non-factually imply Hjalmar Mäe, this puppet governments leader, was a head of state or head of government of Estonia: 132
- I added the template {{EstonianPMs}} to the article I created on Hjalmar Mäe. The template listed Mäe as one of the "Heads of Government of Estonia". It is evident, that the template needs to be on that page. (By the time you read this Mäe will most likely be removed from the template: see history). On top of all this, the template was in fact created by one of the users who now endorse this RfC.
Nonfactual, unsourced and unsourcable attempts to claim that Arnold Rüütel preceded Lennart Meri as the president or head of state of Republic of Estonia: 253, 254, 255
- The article had a succession box in the bottom of the page clearly stating Arnold Rüütel as Meri's predecessor as the "Head of state of Estonia". This box was later removed by one of the associated POV-pushers, but as of now Arnold Rüütel is presented as the predecessor in both the info-box and the succession box. (Do not count on this being the case, when you read this, see history.)