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Elizabeth Needham

The most exclusive London brothel-keeper of her day. Little is known about her, but everything that is known is here. Short FAs are a sadly under-represented category, so I hope this can start to redress the balance. Yomangani 00:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: I am not a FA reviewer but I can comment but there are some short FA's including Cape Feare, sometimes it's not about the lenghth of an article but the comprehensive of it. The FA criteria says "Comprehensive" means that the article does not neglect major facts and details." and "It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail". So article lenghth is always based on the what the article is. SpecialWindler talk 04:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
• Support: I have done small, small amounts here and there with the article. Bawds and bawdy houses are an increasingly important subject in 18th century literary and historical studies, both with New Historicists and various "identity" studies, as well as, of course, historical feminism. Gathering up the sum of what is known on this figure is difficult. Short of having access to an excellent rare book room, the nominator has gathered up all that was possible. As a primary researcher, I know that more was said and written about her, but absolutely none of that is in print or accessible to a researcher not lucky enough to be at the Bodleian and blessed with oceans of vast eternity to do the digging. As an FA, this may well fire the imaginations of serious researchers and provide in one nice, compact form all that we presently know of the lady. Geogre 20:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose, not enough footnotes. Erk, wrong speech. More good work Yomangani. Any estimates on her birth year? And after the 1724 arrest, she got back to work immediately, or is there no info on that (it jumps to '28 suddenly)? Otherwise, I think this as comprehensive as can be expected, if this is all the material that's available. (Would Career be better headlined Character or Personality?) It's 9k prose, incidentally, which isn't quite our shortest; I still think we need some process of encouraging these without necessarily a full FAC, if GA is not to do it. Support. Marskell 12:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

  I've changed the title of "Career" to "Character" as it is probably a better fit since most of her career is mentioned in the next sections. Unfortunately I haven't seen a date of birth or even an estimate. All we know is she wasn't young when she became famous, so a birth date well before 1700 is a good guess, but it would be OR to go any closer than you can infer from the article. Info on the 4 years between 24 and 28 is missing. It doesn't mean nothing of interest happened, just that there are no surviving records in the general literature. Yomangani 13:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll guess you won't have this info either, but is there any estimate of how much income she might've taken in, or at least what a john would've paid at the time? The one shilling on top of the pillory is interesting—even for the time, it couldn't have been more than a token fine. Marskell 14:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose.
  • Lead
    • should be "an English procuress"
    • wikilink either brothel or bawd; someone with limited English skills may not understand the terms, as they are not used as much (in US English at least) anymore.
    • Her death date should appear in the lead.
  • Character section
    • Do you have any estimates of when she might have lived? Middle-aged did not necessarily mean the same age-range 300 years ago as it does today. When life expectancies were shorter, you reached middle age sooner. We need some frame of reference in the first paragraph of the main article to tell us when we think she lived. If you can find any kind of citation as to what middle-aged meant at the time it was being used in connection with her, and then include the year that she was referred to as middle-aged, that would help.
    • Do you have any sources that connect the Fanny Hill plot to Needham? If not, you need to specify that the plot is similar but we don't know where Cleland got his inspiration.
    • Overall, this section does not fit well in the structure of your article as is. It refers to events that are discussed later in the article. I like that you have quotes from her contemporaries about her, but they also need to be placed in some context instead of just a large paragraph of quotations. See if you can better incorporate them, and also provide the years that these commentaries were written.
  • You have adequately pointed out that her house had a good reputation, but I don't know that you've proved that "Her house was the most exclusive in London." If you can find an actual quotation for this, that might help. Your quote from the Daily Journal implies that her house was one of the most popular, but not the most exclusive.
  • Do you have any more information about Ann Bond and how she was lured by Needham?
  • The fact that she was raided doesn't seem to me to have much to do with Sally Salisbury stabbing someone. Even if Salisbury had stabbed someone in Needham's place, she wouldn't necessarily have been raided. A better transition would be good here.
  • Need a citation for the fact that someone died in her house, and that in 1728 several of her girls were arrested.
  • citations should go at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle

Karanacs 14:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)