Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Carcharoth (talk | contribs) at 14:55, 29 June 2007 (→What reasons are there for ever including prices?: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives

July 2002 - February 2004 Topic: "Unencyclopedic" (2003) February 2004 - July 2004 July 2004 - June 2005 May 2005 - December 2005 Topic: Galleries (Nov 2005 – Jan 2006) January 2005 - April 2006 April 2006 - September 2006 Sept 2006 – Nov 2006 Dec 2006 – Jan 2007 Jan 2007 – March 2007 April 2007 - May 2007

Newspaper articles - and especially Tabloid Newspaper articles.

What happend to Avoid weasel words?

"Misplaced Pages properly considers the long term historical notability"

Define long term (also in violation of "wikipedia is not a crystal ball"). We don't and cannot know who will be remebered in 100 years. Most MPs will be largely forgotten but it appears villians are remembered longer (see Herostratus).

"of persons and events with a eye towards care for the harm our work might cause"

Groovy now possible to get wikipedia articles removed through threats. Information is dangerous. This section could be used to justify high levels of censorship. Plenty of bits of history can cause harm in being remembered ("your country attacked us a few centuries ago therefore our attack is justified").

Or there is infomation of a more technical type:

Gun-type_fission_weapon

We cause harm to magicians by saying how some of their tricks are done. Now normally we sidestep the issues by taking the approach that is popular in certain areas of science that true information is not intrinsically good or evil and it is not our place to judge. Moving away from that position creates far more problems than can be solved by doing so.

Geni 00:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the information itself is inherently good or evil, there are ethical considerations intrinsic in the act of making specific information widely and easily available now and for posterity. We can and must take into account those ethical considerations when publishing any article and especially when dealing with the biographies of living persons.

While revealing magicians' tricks and methods may potentially negatively affect some people, it in no way is directly comparable to the specific harm in extending the fifteen minutes of embarrassing fame to an immortality of shame in an encyclopedia. To argue otherwise is disingenuous. Comparing these two things is like saying that American Express account numbers often have 15 digits is as harmful as publishing specific account numbers with personal details in a way that enables identify theft. Lkinkade 00:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Which ethical considerations and under which ethical system? There are ethical systems that would say our article on homeosexuality is wrong since it doesn't explain that all those who commit homeosexual acts are going to hell.Geni 00:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

As written, the new guidelines contradict WP:NOTE, which states that notability does not expire. In other words, if the subject of an article gets widespread press coverage over a short period of time (the so-called "15 minutes of fame") they pass the notability test for Misplaced Pages. -- MisterHand 01:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If by WP:NOTE you mean the Misplaced Pages:Notability guideline, it's okay for this official policy to contradict guidelines. The trick is to interpret the guidelines in the light of policy, and modify them where they are irreconcilable. While it's true that (at least in principle) notability does not expire, notions of what is notable change from age to age. In the eighteenth century, for instance, the late seventeenth century civil servant and politician Samuel Pepys was just a footnote in history, except for his bequest of his library to Magdelene College. In the early nineteenth century, his private diaries were decoded and his notability as a citable source on major events of his era became more apparent. Cases of notability going in the other direction. My personal reaction to this is to avoid using the term "notable" and to evaluate articles on a case-by-case basis, with help from the so-called notability guidelines where they can help. There are other strategies and I don't decry them although I don't use them myself.

If you're saying that being in a lot of newspapers worldwide guarantees someone an everlasting article in Misplaced Pages, well what I and Jimmy Wales and lots of other people are saying is a firm no. --Tony Sidaway 01:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying that's what this encyclopedia's notability guidelines say. If that's not the case, then those guidelines need to change as well. -- MisterHand 03:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

As an aside - Gun-type fission weapon doesn't contain enough information to help someone design a nuclear weapon and is not dangerous. The Nuclear Weapons FAQ does, but please note that essentially none of the "how-to" or design analysis math or techniques info there is anywhere here. This is a subject near to my heart - I have worked with the NWFAQ author on and off for about 15 years on this topic - and unfortunately the subject of great paranoia at times by those who aren't technically informed and aware. Fear not. Misplaced Pages is very harmless on this point. Georgewilliamherbert 04:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Attempt at rewording

The closest I can get to something that is consistant with policy is:

Misplaced Pages does not allow for articles that exist with the aim to disparage the subject of the article. This is required by NPOV and Verifiability in that there must be enough information from Reliable sources to write a NPOV about the subject. With regards to people this means that there must have been wider coverage of their lives beyond a single event.

however this doesn't work because it would require the deletion of articles on things like Olympic athletes.Geni 00:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't think so. If an athlete wins Olympic gold, we get a hole biography appearing in reliable sources. When a person becomes a bit player in an incident, all we get is newspaper reports of one incident. That a baby was 'switched at birth' does not allow us to write a biography - although if the incident attracted enough attention, we could write an article on the incident.--Doc 00:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe in a Darwinistic approach -- we can have the articles, then when time passes by and there really is no significance to an event, we can go on ahead and delete the article. If the event still has significance after a period of time, then the article is kept. —Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 00:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Unacceptable. In the meantime we are highlighting something that's unimportant - and giving it google juice. If it is just an incident report - then it isn't a biography and we should not have what we cannot write.--Doc 00:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

We have to take the longer term view with BLPs. We have the ability to affect an entire life by making a rash decision and publicizing unnecessarily some stupid mistake that someone might have made. Better to wait to see how and whether reliable sources develop the issue. SlimVirgin 00:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

so you support the deletion of articles on olympic athletes? If not how do you square that with your position.Geni 02:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

nah plenty of minor events where such coverage will not exist Olympic Trap shooting for example.Geni 00:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If having been involved in Olympic Trap Shooting ever becomes a serious liability to former contestants, the articles that include such trivia will probably be subject to heavy editing. We make the internet not suck, and we need to live up to that. --Tony Sidaway 01:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

No that is what I'm trying to work around since your suggestion would put us as the arbiters of what is good and evil and that just doesn't work. Trap Shooting may be harmless but what about say Eurovision (answer depends on where you are) or say someone who was briefly a major homosexual activist? No these are not judgments that it is wikipedia's place to make.Geni 02:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It's our encyclopedia. Who's to say the judgements aren't ours to make? Who else would make them but us ourselves? --Tony Sidaway 02:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

generaly our readers. anythign else would be presenting a POV.Geni 02:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment

I'm not sure (as the discussion above seems to indicate) that we should attempt to discriminate much based on the type of news coverage, as how 'embarrassing' a story is, and how much the person in question contributed to their own publicity, are often quite debatable. The way, the truth, and the light 02:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes which is the problem my suggested wording tries to get around however that has the problem of 1)seriously alturing our noteability standards (not that I would have a problem with that) and requireing the deletion of some widely accepted articles.Geni 02:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The wording as it now stands does not mention any such standards, so I don't think that's a problem. I agree that this seems to conflict with notability standards. The way, the truth, and the light 02:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It's policy, not guideline. Going into nitpicking detail is inappropriate. This is just a statement that we don't think much of the fact that some unfortunate bozo happened to be in a newpaper. If we decide we don't much like his article being on the encyclopedia, for whatever reason (but particularly for reasons related to our wish to be an ethical source of information rather than an aggregator of whatever scandals the news media can publish) we delete it unless there is a particularly good reason not to.

As for the notability guidelines, they're always to be interpreted in the light of policy. So no problem with apparent conflicts. Policy takes precedence. --Tony Sidaway 02:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This new section is horribly written and, at least the way it is phrased now, completely ill-conceived. Can we get (or can someone point to a pre-existing piece if one exists) some comments from Jimbo on exactly what it is he is trying to accomplish so this can be reworded to something sane and rational, because as it stands now it just opens the door for people to ask for all sorts of notable articles to be deleted for less than encyclopedic reasons. DreamGuy 02:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Tabloid

From my limited understanding of what people are arguing here, it's not so much the newspaper article part that Misplaced Pages is not, but the tabloid part. The rewording has taken out the tabloid mention, however, which suddenly makes the statement sound a lot more broad than I think (or maybe just hope) was intended. Perhaps if it specified tabloid newspaper instead of just newspaper. DreamGuy 02:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree; "Misplaced Pages is not a Tabloid" captures it well without being controversial. — brighterorange (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The controversial articles are about subjects that were covered in non-tabloid, respectable news sources. So I think 'Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid' would just be confusing. The way, the truth, and the light 03:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I meant that the policy change would not be (as) controversial. — brighterorange (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • This is probably better language. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

• What Jimbo was getting at is this: there is a difference between a newspaper reporting a major event, and sensationalist reporting of the cause celebre du jour. If, for example, the press report a massive new public project, that is probably pretty uncontroversial. If, on the other hand, they are covering a court case which has no lasting societal impact but has some feature that will sell newspapers, we should recognise that as just that: sensationalism to sell papers. How we finally word it I still don't know, but the reason for the qualifier, as I understand it was to allow for inclusion of news which is actually encyclopaedic, and more importantly to draw a distinction between the types of news which might be, and the types which are probably not. Guy (Help!) 09:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

• it was almost certian writen in the context of the Crystal Gail Mangum case. Problem is that almost certianly will have a long term social impact in that geniune rape cases are less likely to be belived in that area for at least a period of time.Geni 12:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I think my original wording was fine

I think my original wording was fine, subject of course to some tweaks and smoothings of grammar and style.

And I invite Geni to be a bit less hysterical about objections. I am happy to discuss it in detail, and to make changes as necessary, but the core point is critical, and I am unwavering about it.

Most slippery slope arguments in this area are just nonsense. What if someone wants to nominate Gun-type fission weapon for deletion? Well, I would imagine that they will be laughed at. Saying that we properly "consider" long term historical notability and the harm we might cause is not dispositive in any particular case. We consider it. Sometimes we think it worthwhile to proceed despite that. Many times, and in particular in the kinds of cases we are all concerned about, we think it not worthwhile. We are Wikipedians. We discuss, we debate, we think.

We do not and can not know what will be important 100 years from now. True. We will let those Wikipedians of the future decide for themselves. We live here and now, and having total fucking crap (have I ever cursed on Misplaced Pages before?) in Misplaced Pages today, on the theory that the people of 100 years hence might want to write an article about it then, strikes me as unwise.--Jimbo Wales 03:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

And I'd say it's identically unwise to make knee-jerk reactions in the other direction. Of course, since we write from sources, the addition really lacks anything anyway, as it's wholly subjective and will undoubtedly only be abused, rather than used in any proper manner, if there is a proper manner. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What's the knee-jerk reaction here (aside from leaping to the conclusion that this "will undoubtedly only be abused")? It's an attempt to maintain coherence between our guidelines and our practices, while addressing issues that have been the subject of concerned discussion for some time now. --Michael Snow 04:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to address anything regrding guidelines or practices, really. If you think it does, then it's even more toothless than perhaps I originally thought. And it's certainly not a leap to consider this easily abused - have you not been paying attention the last couple weeks? --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, considering that the page is tagged as "official policy" (for what those labels are worth), why you say it doesn't address guidelines or practices is beyond me. I can see you've already softened your stance from will "only be abused" to "easily abused". From past observation I know I'm not ready to adopt your definition of abuse, so care to keep moving further in the direction of a middle ground? --Michael Snow 04:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, considering that the section added doesn't reflect any of that, and is at least giving the appearance of a "Jimbo wants it" support (never a good sign), I fail to see how this actually reflects practice, guideline, policy, or consensus. I see no middle ground, and I'm not really changing my opnion on the abuse - Misplaced Pages writes from sources in a neutral manner, that's all we must concern ourselves with. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The inability to see possible common ground with people of divergent opinions does not speak well of your capacity for working on a collaborative project like Misplaced Pages. --Michael Snow 04:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Excellent defense of your position. I assume you have no argument, since you instead felt the need to go after me. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Or rather, I have decided not to argue further with someone who rejects any possibility of compromise by his own statements. All you've done is essentially rehashed the same position on your side, so I don't know what my position needs to be defended against other than argument by assertion. --Michael Snow 04:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

And I'm fine with that. You'll note that I can agree to that without making a trite comment about one's capabilities. You do, however, seem to have an issue demonstrating how this actually jives with what you claim is "an attempt to maintain coherence." It may be worth your while to do so. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages writes from sources in a neutral manner, that's all we must concern ourselves with." No. Misplaced Pages is too big, too influential, too widely linked to, too often the first thing returned in a Google searhc for that to be all. We must also be ethical. We must also refrain from causing needless harm or anguish. We must also refrain from needlessly increasing notoriety of those who are only victims of circumstance. I think the majority of the community believes that. I think the wider world believes we have such a duty as well, and I think Jimbo's changes reflect that consensus, rather than being something imposed by fiat. IMHO, it has come to Jimbo taking this stand personally in part because there is a minority of people, including yourself, Jeff, who apparently do not get this, and it is important enough that Jimbo himself felt that, since you apparently do not get this, his direct contribution to the debate might possibly serve to influence you to reconsider your position, to reconsider spurning ethicality, and to do what is right, not just what is allowed by policy. Please reconsider your position and your opposition. ++Lar: t/c 11:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Which ethical system? "needless harm or anguish" define what need do we have and where are you drawing the line?Geni 12:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

We are an encyclopedia, not an ethical experiment. I do get what you're saying - I reject it wholeheartedly, and without reservation. Jimbo may have other reasons that come into play - he's not sharing them, and, truly, he hasn't been an editor in a very long time, and that certainly bears noting. Unless he's acting as God King here, I see no reason to treat his opinion as greater than anyone else's at this stage. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

We are not an ethical experiment. We are a project with an opportunity to act ethically, or instead to stand on process. It's too bad that you reject what I believe is consensus "wholeheartedly and without reservation", because I choose to act ethically, not to stand on process, as do I think most other people. As for weight of opinions, I think you'll find that WP is at least in part a meritocracy and Jimbo has demonstrated more merit than most, and thus his opinions rightly carry more weight (at least with some of us) than some other folks opinions do. ++Lar: t/c 12:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I choose to act ethically as well. See the problem? --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed I do. Restating it... if my ethics lead me logically to the conclusion that we should not do needless harm to victims by publicising them more than necessary, and your ethics lead you logically to the conclusion that doing so is OK, at least one of our ethical systems has a logical contradiction or a moral failing. Perhaps both, of course, and perhaps instead, one or both of our derivations is not sound. But.. if I'm in fact logically contradicted or if my conclusion is fallaciously derived, then I'm in pretty good company, company I'm proud to keep. For the most part, I think it's a good idea to structure things in a way that we don't have to use ethics to make decisions, as much as possible. But sometimes we do. These sorts of cases are the sort where we do have to be informed by ethics, and your apparent viewpoint in this matter about what is right and what is ethical is, I think, in a small minority. ++Lar: t/c 21:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has an issue with the statement that it might be considered. But having that statement be part of policy implies that things that violate it are likely to be deleted, not just that it will be considered as a factor. If you support deleting these types of articles, that's reasonable, but significantly different from just saying "we consider it". -Amarkov moo! 04:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

not a slippery slope argument just a logical extrapolation. If we are going to start worrying about harm that is the direction we should logicaly go in. We cannot decide if information is going to cause harm without first decideing if information is good or evil and that is a POV judgement that we should not be makeing.Geni 12:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not justification for speedy deletion

WP:NOT is explicitly listed as one of the things that is not a speedy criterion. So if you think that this section justifies any speedy deletion, you are wrong. Those will continue to stand on their own merits, supported by no policy (except maybe some interpretations of BLP). -Amarkov moo! 04:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh I think we'll have a lot less need for speedies in a short while. Stay tuned. --Tony Sidaway 05:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

notable->encyclopedicencyclopedic-Newspaper_articles_-_and_especially_Tabloid_Newspaper_articles.-2007-05-29T05:18:00.000Z">

I've restored Jimbo's wording in the newspaper articles item to emphasize the word "encyclopedic". Our notability guidelines are rules of thumb and do not guarantee an article in an encyclopedia. The stronger standard applies: "should this item have an encyclopedia article in this encyclopedia?" In answering that question we consider every relevant factor. In particular, this policy overrides theg guidelines. --Tony Sidaway 05:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)encyclopedic"> encyclopedic">

I don't like using the word 'encyclopedic' here as it's circular: 'encyclopedic' in this context means 'suitable for the encyclopedia'. So saying that we shouldn't have unencyclopedic articles is a tautology. It seems that my wording with 'notable' is better, because that really is the only standard that we can use. The way, the truth, and the light 17:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You remain my favourite Wikipedian, Tony, for your ability to write stuff like that with a straight face. Your standard is utter bollocks, of course. It basically says you'll decide what should be in an encyclopaedia by deciding what should be in an encyclopaedia. Which would be fine if there weren't dozens of opinions on what encyclopaedias should contain, which are drearily rehearsed in various forums here. It's not that I don't appreciate your desire to allow editors you consider to have a "clue" to be arbiters of what should be in and what should be out -- it's a bit self-selecting but so long as you include yourself in the "clueful", what's the harm? -- but you can see why some find it a bit unsatisfactory? Of course, I think we should have stuck with the original bold vision and not settled for aiming at being a poor man's Britannica, but I'm not as influential in the backchannels as yourself. Grace Note 05:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Attempt at rewording #2

I've been bold and reworded it slightly. I should probably outline my position in greater detail here:

While i'm mainly in agreement with BLP and this policy addition, I still feel it requires further clarification to avoid loose interpretations. I'm not sure whether every article on a living person needs to be viewed as a full 'Biography' - if their notability is restricted to one particular incident or event. I'm also concerned at the potential for 'sanitising' wikipedia that BLP seems to offer - if negative information is both relevant and verifiable, it should be included. The Crystal Gail Magnum case is a clear example of the line where the article becomes unnecessary - not enough verifiable information for a full biography (which is not necessarily a problem) or for an article (which is). Since there was a larger article on the incident which contained the relevant information, I supported the redirect. However, I'm sure there are articles that have been speedied where there *was* enough relevant information for an article, and where there hasn't been coverage of this information within another article.

In short, I'm in agreement with thois policy, with the proviso that people should tread lightly when approaching this type of article: rather than speedying, it would be preferable to blank dubious content (not whole articles), protect, and send to one of the many fora for resolving content disputes. Some of what's been happening with DRV etc has served to divide the community, rather than to encourage co-operation. Which path do we want to take? --DrumCarton 13:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I think it's divisive to talk about policy overriding guidlines - BLP and Notability are perfectly capable of working together, as long as people try to make them do so. If a subject is clearly notable, we can't censor it from the encyclopedia, even if the verifiable information is predominantly negative. Likewise, if an article is negative without adding anything to the encyclopedia, it shouldn't need to be here. Example of the type of story that does not merit an article: . However, there are many that do. DrumCarton 13:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

More minor tweaks

I've made another tweak back towards Jimbo's original language. I can see where "Newspaper articles" stands out from "News Reports" which is a term used in WP:NOT#OR. --InkSplotch 14:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

More comments and changes

Wow, I'm away for a long weekend and look what I miss - Jimbo himself somewhat unilaterally adds a new section to WP:NOT#IINFO out of the blue. So it looks like I've come back to a bit of excitement. Anyway, while I think Jimbo's heart is probably in the right place, I have a couple of comments and changes for the new section.

• The name of the section, "News reports", unfortunately duplicates the name of the "News reports" section of WP:NOT#OR. They talk about different problems, though (one is about first-hand reporting, while the other discusses remaining neutral and on-topic). Ideally one of both of these sections should be renamed to make them more distinct. I'm not sure what name to use off-hand, but if someone has a good idea feel free to suggest it or make the change.
• I think the new section significantly overlaps WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. WP:BLP for example already says very similar things, such as in the "Presumption in favor of privacy" section. I think the new section can probably be shortened by a sentence or two, mainly referring readers to WP:BLP and WP:NPOV for guidance on what is or isn't suitable for biographical articles. Then leave those policies as the one that delve into greater detail on what exactly Misplaced Pages is looking for in terms of keeping bios on topic and neutral, etc. To that end I'll take a stab at making the section a little more concise.
• My only disagreement with the spirit of the new section would be that, in my opinion, we should be mainly concerned with whether or not information is objective, verifiable and worth mentioning in a detailed encyclopedic treatment of the subject. I believe that while "possible harm" should be a reasonable secondary consideration, it should in the end be trumped by "accuracy and significance". That is possibly embarassing information which is verifiable and non-trivial in an encyclopedic discussion on the topic should still be included. Unimportant information which is potentially embarassing should be removed, but important information should not. I think the current wording leans a little too much away from accuracy in favor of avoiding embarassment. On the upside, if I shorten the section to refer to WP:BLP then that would eliminate my concern by shifting details on the definitions to that policy instead of this one. Dugwiki 22:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, but I reverted you, for two reasons - the previous wording started at a fairly uncontroversial premise and logically argued it to a conclusion, imo. Also, this debate's also caused quite a lot of friction, so it may be wise to specify fairly clearly here the ground rules for this particular problem. DrumCarton 11:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, no big deal there one way or another. I did make one more minor change, though. I didn't like the phrase "In many cases it will be impossible..." because it sounds a bit too much like a weasel word. I replaced it with a hopefully logical correlation that the briefer the news coverage of a person the less likely a sufficiently comprehensive encyclopedic article can be constructed. This tries to explain the relationship between brief news coverage without quantifying whether there are "many" or "some" or "a few" cases where biographies can be constructed. (It's not important exactly how many such cases exist, but only how to recognize when they occur.)

P.S. I like the new title "Journalism" for the other related section of policy. Thanks to whoever came up with that. :) Dugwiki 15:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We need more discussion on this

I completely agree with the addition, however there seems to be major disagreement to how this is supposed to be applied. I don't suggest removing the entry, but agree with it or not, it's way too new for people to be using it in such unclear situations. -- Ned Scott 00:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

What about crime, death, medical curiosities and watercooler stories?

Early this year a couple of AFDs of articles about a murder victim Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Murder of Tom ap Rhys Pryce and a man who got lost and died of exposure Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/James Kim led to discussion at a proposed guideline (now essay) WP:NOTNEWS that we are an encyclopedia and not a newspaper, and that a TV news show editor or a newspaper editor seeking to build audience have different basic standards from an encyclopedia editor, so that alarming stories about crime and sympathy-evoking stories about loss, and even watercooler stories about cute animals in distress can give rise to substantial coverage in multiple reliable independent sources, but still not have the makings of a good encyclopedia article, even if they more than satisfy the letter of WP:N and WP:A. The new standard is apparently to delete stories if they cause or might cause distress to the subject, or his friends or family, in the judgment of some administrator, without the process of an AFD. This leaves us with what are basically memorial stories such as the Kim and Pryce death, where sympathy says keep the article rather than compassion saying delete it as in the case of youthful crime victims. If there are lots of sources like for the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, then does this policy not apply, or do we contact each victim (the deletion review says "The Shawn Hornbeck Foundation was contacted for input") and ask if they want the article deleted, as is being done in the deletion review for the kidnapped Shawn Hornbeck and Ben Ownby? These are all cases of what NewYorkBrad in that deletion review called "crime victims and others who achieve notoriety or notability, fleeting or otherwise, as the result of events wholly beyond their control." This would include Lina Medina who gave birth at age 5 and is now 73, and 17 year old conjoined twins Abigail and Brittany Hensel besides the crime victims. WP:COI seems to contraindicate the subject of the article determining its content or even its appearance in Misplaced Pages. Edison 21:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Microformats

It has been suggested that the inclusion of microformats (see WP:UF for background) is a breach of this policy's "Misplaced Pages is not a travelguide" and "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" clauses. I do not believe that that is so, since the data presented on the page does not change; only the metadata (one might make a comparison with PERSONDATA). Does any one else have a view? Andy Mabbett 14:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a problem offering information in different formats as long as they can all be kept up to date without the need to fork in many places. However, if the information in those other formats is not important enough to be visible on the plain text page or in images, then it has no place in Misplaced Pages. That would include all information where changes affect the metadata only, such as phone numbers and the like. This was discussed a while ago. --Para 22:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. No microformat are intended to provide hidden metadata, such as you allude to - it's expressly prohibited in their specs. (That's where microformats differ from PERSONDATA.) I'd be grateful for other' comments, also. Andy Mabbett 06:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

From what it looks like, I don't see any issue with what you're doing. JoshuaZ 16:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that that is so, since the data presented on the page does not change Then why are you wasting your time? Your arguments for the inclusion of Micrformats is their use by software and GPS systems, since the current templates already do this and that wikipedia is designed to be read there is little point for such an overly complicated system to be implemented. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 17:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Then why are you wasting your time?" I'm not. Got any other straw men you'd like to exercise?

"Your arguments for the inclusion of Micrformats (sic) is their use by software and GPS systems" - you misrepresent me.

Microformats are not "overly complicated" and the existing templates do not have their functionality. You appear to be labouring under a series of misapprehensions. You may educate yourself in this matter at http://microformats.org/, or here on Misplaced Pages.

Andy Mabbett 22:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to represent you since this isn't a vendetta against you. I am quoting you. I don't know why I bother trying to communicate with you since you dismiss any coments from I in the ruddest matter, there is little need to begin this enquery if you do not welcome counter arguments. you have in the past offered GPS and geo software as tools to use Microformats on Misplaced Pages, since GPS is used for travelling they would be more suited for Wikitravel. Or maybe you could bring out more straw men and offer them as arguments? If you do not follow procedures correctly, the matter will have to be taken somewhere where you will have to answer for this since you do not accept any other coments than positive. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

If you think you're quoting me, then cite your source. Andy Mabbett 12:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Having seen the inline templates {{Hcard-geo}} and {{Hcard-bday}}, I'll have to change my position a bit. Microformats should ideally be supported by MediaWiki, and in the interim I think it's acceptable to implement them with templates if normal users don't need to pay attention to them. But if the consequence is that editing the wikitext becomes harder, like with inline templates, then we have another problem in hand. Will we soon see all names and such surrounded with obscure microformat templates? I really don't think that's the way to go. If an inline template does nothing to add consistency or help in maintenance, is there then any value to keep it in article space? There is probably a better place to talk about this, like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Templates or Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Inline Templates, or somewhere else? --Para 23:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Will we soon see all names and such surrounded with obscure microformat templates?" No. I only envisage the new pair being used where there is a particular need; such as the coordinates on Ridge Route; or where the named individual does not have their own article (I've seen a subject's father, and the father's date of birth, mentioned, unlinked, in-line in an article recently, but can't recall where). However, the issue here is "do microformats breach WP:NOT", not how to implement them. Andy Mabbett 09:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You didn't answer Paradisal's concerns. Paradisal mentioned the positibility of extensive code present in articles, would you like to answer that? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have answered Paradisal. I also said, "the issue here is "do microformats breach WP:NOT", not how to implement them", which you appear to have overlooked. Andy Mabbett 12:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Semantic markup is likely to become more popular on the web through various different formats, and people won't stop after just two types, but will come up with the strangest sets of information that they feel must then be entered in their preferred format everywhere. If these inline templates are only ment to be used with fragments of information that don't deserve their own article (which I doubt, since things are often duplicated elsewhere from the main article), do they really deserve to be showcased in other formats that don't contain the rest of the article?

The implementation is very much related to this page, as the obscure markup used might change Misplaced Pages from an encyclopedia that anyone can edit into a site to demonstrate technical innovations only precious few understand to edit. People should really not be forced to look at things like "hcard-bday fn" when they want to write someone's birth date. If nobody wants to talk to developers about implementing an extension and some tag scheme for microformats, how about just continuing to try moving these additional formats inside the currently used templates, such as extending the {{birth date and age}} template to take a name? --Para 16:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm impressed by the power of your crystal ball, but this remains off-topic here. Andy Mabbett 16:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you not expect microformats to be used more and more? If they are implemented inline like the examples above are, they will lead to wikitext ending up an incomprehensible mess. --Para 16:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

This remains off-topic here. Andy Mabbett 16:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Incomprehensible mess implies WP:NOT. If inline microformats result in articles becoming an incomprehensible mess, inline microformats belong in WP:NOT as well. --Para 16:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

If inline microformats cause a mess, be sure to point it out at that time. Does someone presently have an example to discuss? (SEWilco 00:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

Inline microformats have now been nominated for deletion to stop this nonsense from spreading. --Para 08:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't notice mention of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Microformats. If you look there you find mention of a number of microformats which may be of interest. For example, Wikimedia already has several kinds of links for getting more information about an ISBN. Is there something wrong with a similar format which follows a standard? Dates could be be marked as such, so in addition to Misplaced Pages's links to some dates the user's browser might provide additional information about a date or event (if all browsers have a useful date handling ability maybe Misplaced Pages can have better support for dates than the current mix of real wikilinks and pseudolinks). (SEWilco 00:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

As I wrote above, there is no problem when additional formats are generated transparently inside templates that normal editors don't have to look at. None of the templates mentioned in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Microformats are used in articles directly. However, when the templates are for one output format only, such as the inline template {{hcard-bday}} mentioned above, we move from Misplaced Pages content markup in wiki format to using a single XHTML representation of an additional output format. With this inline template it would mean writing "{{hcard-bday|fn=Firstname Lastname|bday={{birth date and age|1955|06|08}}}}" instead of "{{birth date and age|1955|06|08|Firstname Lastname}}" for example. We can't possibly generate every format for semantic web in articles themselves, but they have to come from special MediaWiki handlers such as with ISBN, or be generated transparently inside our normal content markup templates. Special case output format markup does not fit in article space. --Para 03:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The original question and most responses are about microformats, not Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Microformats's implementation. I don't think microformats should be banned without considering their implementation. I'm happy to have the WikiProject create an initial implementation, as I think more general templates will absorb them, such as Taxobox. (SEWilco 03:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

Nobody has suggested banning all microformats. They should however not be written in articles directly. The same applies to any other additional format. The original question does not pay attention to it, but it's an important condition of the answer. This is a general Misplaced Pages issue and not something WP:UF can decide on their own. --Para 03:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

"Nobody has suggested banning all microformats" - Captain Scarlet has. Another user also suggested that their use breached WP:NOT. Andy Mabbett 12:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

{{birth date and age}} has no firstname or lastname properties; if it did, I would have added hCard microformat mark-up there. Your "We can't possibly generate every..." is straw-man; nobody has suggested that we do that. Andy Mabbett 12:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

That's why I was suggesting above to work on extending the template to take those properties. Then you could implement the microformat and its special parameters in template space, instead of polluting article space with useless cruft. These hCards hold no special status to deserve to make the wikitext more complicated, other semantic web markup ought to be supported just as well then. But since writing implementation specific markup directly in articles makes them harder to edit, that's not the way to do it. --Para 13:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The new template is no more, or less, in the article space than the old one. You're applying double standards. Andy Mabbett 14:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you refer to with old and new one. The examples in my post at "03:11, 8 June" are perceptibly different: first is full of odd cruft, and the second intuitive without having to read any documentation. To an article reader, even a microformat-enabled one, the articles would look the same with both templates, but an editor would have to look at the microformat implementation in the first example only, as in the second one the special markup would be in template space. --Para 18:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

(Response to Andy's original question) I see no problem with the microformats I have seen implemented. They don't cause trouble for readers or editors, and have the potential to be useful for integration of WP, automatic catgorization, etc. I don't believe there is any inherent conflict between microformats and WP:NOT. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett 12:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope you're ready Pigsonthewing: A Microformat is a way of adding simple semantic meaning to human-readable content which is otherwise, from a machine's point of view, just plain text. They allow data items such as events, contact details or locations, on HTML (or XHTML) web pages, to be meaningfully detected and the information in them to be extracted by software, and indexed, searched for, saved or cross-referenced, so that it can be reused or combined. Why is that relevant to wikipedia's readers who read articles? machines can be told exactly what each value represents, and can then index it, look it up on a map, export it to a GPS device, or whatever. wikipedia is designed for people not devices, a GPS is not a device thought of on wikipedia. You remember when you tossed me aside asking to quote you, well there. A GPS you say...

Other microformats allow the encoding and extraction of events, contact information, social relationships, and so on. More are being developed. So Misplaced Pages is the new Yellow Pages? Your other pet, hCards is equally off topic since it is not Misplaced Pages's aim to provide online phone books or advertise such and such artist, it is the role of their respective official websites. Adding information such as post codes, addresses, phone numbers is not acceptable and it has been discussed. It says here that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not what you're transforming it into, neither is your project relevant to Encyclopedia#21st_century.

for the average user, Microformats means:

• a set of simple open data format standards that many are actively developing and implementing for more/better structured blogging and web microcontent publishing in general. Misplaced Pages is not a blog nor a directory.
• an attempt to get everyone to change their behavior and rewrite their tools Indeed since most of the issue is surrounded by having to change for something new and described by its advertiser as the same.
• a whole new approach that throws away what already works today Indeed.
• a panacea for all taxonomies, ontologies, and other such abstractions Indeed.

Implement Microformats where they're needed, personnal, business, company, directory websites, just not Misplaced Pages. You'll also appreciate that doesn't even have a complete definition of the concept, bad website design full of corporate talk: An Evolutionary Revolution Yes that's convinced me, not. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 09:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm always ready to refute the nonsense you post. Where I asked you to quote me was to substantiate your claim that " arguments for the inclusion of Micrformats (sic) is their use by software and GPS systems". You have, of course, failed to do so, because your claim misrepresented me. Your references to an "online phonebook" or "Yellow Pages" are also bogus, because, while microformats could indeed be used for that purpose, no-one is proposing to use them for that here; nor is anyone (in relation to microformats) proposing to add address details where they are not already used. Misplaced Pages is indeed intended to be used by "devices", as the recent debate on the parsing of coordinates illustrates. Misplaced Pages is indeed not a blog; but it does fall under "web publishing in general". Your latter quotes appear to be incomplete, thereby reversing their meaning. I note that you don't cite your sources. Your criticism of the microformat website, while it may be justified, is irrelevant; your opposition to microformats without foundation. Andy Mabbett 09:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, you don'(t understand I didn't invent the quoted text above. These are your words, so use bogus, straw men or slippery slopes as much as you want but these are your words. These are your words from your Wikiproject from which you justify your edits , so you're justifying your edits with rules and convention you invent? Your comments are as usual empty and full of threat instead of an attempt to listen to others. I don't think you'l ever listen Pigsonthewing, I made an effort for you. If you're not even capable of accepting quotes from Microformats.org and WP:Microformats then where does that leave you? Funny how you're sure of your quotes form these locations but if anyone else does they're suddenly all wrong. You're applying double standards and assuming I'm making edits in bad faith. I have done nothing, over the course of the last three months to be amicable and have god faith in your capabilities to argue with others. I believe you're bent on getting your ideas pushed through at whatever the cost and do not intend on accepting any comments other than full support. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 09:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

They are indeed quotes, though not all of my words; but they're taken out of context and don't support your false assertions.

"I have done nothing, over the course of the last three months to be amicable" - indeed.

I make no threats, empty or otherwise. I'm not really interested in your fallacious beliefs.

Andy Mabbett 09:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is double-censored

The pornography "project" that has enpowered editors to remove all but six porn video titles from filmographies is censorship. There is no other logical explanation for it. "Notability" isn't relevant because "notability" applies to the subjects of articles, not article content. "Undue weight," and the idea that porn filmographies represent the "indiscriminate collection" of information don't apply, because filmographies of non-porn actors routinely go beyond 100 films.

Editors here are routinely misrepresenting purported Misplaced Pages "pillars" and "principles" in this area, and they are repeatedly and deliberately lying about the notability issue. They are lying about censorship, puking out the tautology that censoring porn filmographies isn't censorship because "Misplaced Pages doesn't censor."

Maybe all of this is to be expected, given that Misplaced Pages is headquartered in Florida, the craziest state in America. Who knows, maybe it's been taken over by a bunch of evangelical Christian Republicans. It sure seems like it when it comes to anything involving porn. In any case, the idea that Misplaced Pages isn't censored is an absolutely preposterous lie. Pwok 08:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Taking it to talk

Hi, I had a lovely personal message on my talk page from someone who assumes I know nothing about Misplaced Pages policy. What would you like to discuss about my edits? 172.159.93.208 22:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Not censored?

Should the not censored section be expanded to specifically include content warnings? Things such as: This article contains (type of content) that some may find disturbing. I've seen this turn into disputes on two articles recently. Gangrene had to be protected over this and there is a dispute over at Robert Pickton about it now. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 00:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

These user-created disclaimers are already removed on sight, so I have added WP:NDT to the {{seealso}} list in this section. Prolog 00:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Still, that's only a guideline (a set rule IMO, but not in everyone's) and these technically aren't templates, just text. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 00:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps WP:NDT should be just "No disclaimers" including templates? Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 00:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, it appears that moving the guideline to Misplaced Pages:No disclaimers has already been proposed. Maybe it should be moved through WP:RM then. Prolog 00:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I've listed it at WP:RM and started a new discussion thread on the talk page for the guideline. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 01:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

>Misplaced Pages is not censored at all <

This is BS! If anybody added a detailed description to WP of the quaternial integral cryptanalysis method which NSA currently uses to break high-strenght PGP, or the exact way to make sub-100tons tactical nukes economically, wikipedia would go down faster than you can count 1-2-3. Geeks seem to think they are almighty, but when the black suit govt guys come knocking to their doors underwear replacement is warranted. Misplaced Pages is not above laws and morals imposed by governments and that may well include censorship and you cannot do anything against that! So it is better not to put empty bragging on your pages like no censorship at all here. 81.0.68.145

• • • I'd like to see reliable sources for those articles. (sarcastic reply). -N 21:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

is this what wikipedia is not?

I just looked at Song Sparrow and while it doesn't fit any of the categories specifically, I think the references section that is far longer than the article (especially the list of dissertations) is not very encyclopedic. Or am I way off base? Pdbailey 03:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Holy over-ref... I suggest you move that "further reading" section to a talk subpage. --tjstrf talk 03:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with the above. The further reading section's definitely worth keeping for reference when editing, but not on the article, there it does violate Misplaced Pages is not a directory. The references section should stay as it is, although it does need inline citations rather than just a list. - Zeibura S. Kathau 20:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

"Do no harm", our aim to

This is not an over-simplification of any sort. It's what WP:BLP says: "In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". In which case, why this edit? Our aim is to do no harm. It's in the policy. Moreschi 14:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

So link to the policy. Done deal. "Do no harm" has proven to be absurdly subjective, and is being expanded to unnecessary and disruptive lengths. Linking to the policy is a better idea, since the policy governs what our aim is beter than simply trusting people we can't trust to "do no harm." --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not a good (or necessary) wording regardless of the policy behind the wikilink. The whole point of the section is that Misplaced Pages includes content that can be harmful to some people. Prolog 14:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say leave it as Biographies of living persons. Whilst "Do no harm" is an important part of the policy, it isn't the whole of the policy, so it's necessary but not sufficient. The entirety of the policy applies here. --Tony Sidaway 21:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Get the game here

List of free first-person shooters contains many links to download locations, within the sections and labeled like "Get the game here". I'm coming here before unilaterally taking those links out, because I need someone to hold my hand for a second. Or are links like that not a violation of WP:NOT? —AldeBaer 10:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure. My immediate reaction was that it violates WP:NOT#MIRROR, but I've just had a look at the external link criteria, which (under what to link), states "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply". I guess it falls under that. I don't like the sentence "get the game here" though, sounds like advertising speak. - Zeibura S. Kathau 10:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

My sentiment exactly. I had also read WP:NPA#MIRROR and didn't find an immediate answer whether or such links are ok. Well, I guess I'm removing the "get the game heres" and leave the links for now. Thanks for the input. —AldeBaer 10:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Crystal Ball

Is the following discussion appropriate to report in the article Islam and antisemitism:

Johannes Jansen writes that antisemitism will have little or no future in the Arab world in the long run. He states that, like other imports from the Western World, antisemitism is unable to establish itself in the private lives of Muslims.

Reference:Jansen, Johannes, J. G. Lewis' Semities and Anti-Semites. The Jewish Quarterly Review.

The Jewish Quarterly Review is a respected journal.

Johannes J.G. Jansen used to be the Director of the Dutch Institute in Cairo. Since 1983, he has been an associate professor of Arabic and Islamic studies at Leiden University. His books have been translated into Bosnian and Turkish, and even printed recently in Indonesia. He writes regularly for a weekly newspaper and has a weekly column on the religion page of several provincial newspapers.

Does the above discussion violate Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball?

Bless sins 21:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

No: It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about ... whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced. Not a crystal ball is more intended for articles like Spider-Man 4.

Yeah, that's what I think as well. Apparently there is some confusion over whether "development" includes the decline of antisemitism in the Muslim world.Bless sins 01:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Scheduled church services

A number of Singaporean church articles include information about timing and content of services. This, IMHO, violates WP:NOT#DIR. Second opinions? Jpatokal 05:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Listing a guide to current events violates WP:NOT#DIR. It's very similar to the example of "...an article on a radio station generally should not list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, schedules, programme lists, etc., although mention of major events or promotions may be acceptable." Major events in the history of a particular church can be discussed, but specific day-to-day and week-to-week schedules should not. Dugwiki 15:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

And now a church-affiliated editor has attempted to compromise by deleting times, but keeping dates . I still think it's unencyclopedic. Jpatokal 06:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think a key question is will the information you're talking about be deleted and replaced a few weeks after the event occurs? If so then there's probably no reason to include it in the article in the first place. For example, day-to-day schedules are not likely to be something that will be permanently kept in the article. So attempting to do that just means all that much extra maintainence and a lack of stability in the article. Truly significant events are ones that will likely be still mentioned the article long after the event occurs. So if the dates your talking about are not something that will be kept in the article in the long haul, they should be removed. Dugwiki 16:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a schedule of weekly church services: on Sunday at 10 AM is the English service, on Monday at 6 PM is the Mandarin service, etc. IMHO this kind of stuff is totally irrelevant for somebody wants to know about the church itself, and is better maintained on the church's website. Jpatokal 02:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

question about WP:NOT#PUBLISHER

I have some questions about this rule. Some users warn me regarding the possible violation of this rule (#6) when I place sport score before a sport game has officially end. I just want to know the definition of this rule and whether or not I have violated this rule. Chris 06:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

See discussion on Talk:2007_NBA_Playoffs, User talk:Chrishomingtang#2007 NBA Playoffs, User talk:Ksy92003#2007 NBA Playoffs, User talk:Wizardman and User talk:Soxrock for more detail.

The issue of reporting sports scores on Misplaced Pages during the middle of a game really doesn't have much to do with verifiability. Tens of sports websites across the web can verify the score of the Red Sox game at any given moment. The problem is that, within a half-hour, that score is likely to change. ESPN.com will change its scoreboard accordingly, but Misplaced Pages usually won't. So it's best to just wait until the game is over, and then report the game as a whole.

Misplaced Pages's real-time flexibility is a great advantage over print encyclopedias, but it can be taken too far. Updating scores in the middle of a game is symptomatic of recentism. Don't despair, though - there is always plenty of work to do on our sports articles. :) Placeholder account 07:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This is similar to my comment on day-to-day church event dates above. Basically information that is obviously going to be deleted or changed shortly after its inclusion in an article shouldn't be included in the first place. You should normally only include information in an article that is likely to be there for the long haul. Dugwiki 16:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#IINFO - doesn't cut it.

There is an ongoing debate in the article cups and balls in which a section once existed (and has been forcably removed by certain editors) that explained the principles behind performing the trick. The claim is that "wikipedia is not an instruction manual" and no how-to or instructions should ever be placed in articles. I would like to suggest that this policy is not realistic within wikipeda to be strictly defined as such.

It is normal practice in wikipedia articles to explain how things work, and not just described what they actually do or how they appear. As such, the internal combustion engine article explains the chemical reaction inside an engine, and describes many different kinds of engines and how they work. (to me this is either a how-to guide for engines, or a how-to guide on how to achieve internal combustion). Articles on musical instruments like violin don't just tell you the shape and materials the instrument is made from, it tells you how the instrument is played, and explains techniques related the instrument. This would be a how-to manual to me.

Games like Chess have lots of space dedicated to technique - there is even a whole article about it - Chess strategy. There are articles dedicated to other secret "instructions" such as recepes (which are just cooking instructions) for the Coca-Cola formula and MacDonald's Special Sauce. I don't see any good reason for details on the performance of the Cups and balls to be any more unacceptable than those articles just because it instructs on a physical action, and not just instructs on a mechanical, mental or culnary action. I would say that the top reason someone would goto an article on Cups and Balls, or any magic trick would be first to read about how the trick "appears to be performed" (the intended effect), if they don't know the trick, or to learn about the techniques that create the illusion if they have seen the trick. I'm not saying that the section ought to be written in the style of "take the ball in your hand- place your hand in your pocket - slip the ball under the cup...." but an outright deletion of the section and a ban on any information relating to how the trick is performed seems outright un-wikipedish to me. TheHYPO 22:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As long as the section just describes the basics of the technique and is not a step by step guide to performing the trick, I don't think it falls under WP:NOT. The point of that clause is not to prevent any description of a procedure. -Chunky Rice 22:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

N's user page disclaimer

N has added a new disclaimer to the myspace clause . it reads:

If you are considering nominating a user page or personal image for deletion because it appears to be used as a personal web page or a blog, please be aware that many editors will consider this a personal attack on themselves, because they may believe they own "my userpage". Be very careful not to scare a newbie away from Misplaced Pages, and try to assume good faith that they are merely trying to share information about themselves. Try to resolve the issue on the user's talk page first. Also note that a limited amount of personal information (perhaps a short biography) and a freely licensed (never fair use) tasteful personal photograph or two may be allowed on a user's page in order to show the user's human side are usually allowed, but only if the page complies with other Misplaced Pages policies. Users with most of their contribution edits outside their user space should be given more leeway in this regard than users whose edits consist solely or mostly of user space edits. And always remember that a user's user page being used as a personal web page is not in itself a speedy deletion criteria.

However much I agree with this (and I do, very much), I think it probably belongs somewhere else. Misplaced Pages:User page most likely. --Tony Sidaway 16:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I also think it would be better suited for Misplaced Pages:User page as well. --13 16:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yup, doesn't belong on the WP:NOT page. WP:USER is a better spot for it. (Requestion 16:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC))

Moving it per consensus. Thanks for the affirmation. -N 19:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Schedules & program lists

The section on "Misplaced Pages is not a directory" includes the following:

"3. Directories, directory entries, TV/Radio Guides, or a resource for conducting business. For example, an article on a radio station generally should not list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, schedules, programme lists, etc., although mention of major events or promotions may be acceptable."

The wording "programme lists" was added after a brief discussion which lasted for 3 days and involved 6 users. On the other hand this AfD discussion revealed a clear community consensus to at least include program lists and even schedules of many TV networks (while many arguments to delete were based on citing this very paragraph of WP:NOT). Since policy is supposed to follow consensus, and not the other way around, either this wording is unclear, or it is not true policy. Either way, it must be rewritten in a way such that it is clear when program lists and schedules are allowed and when they are not. Otherwise, such articles as List of programs broadcast by NBC might be repeatedly nominated for deletion, because a not insignificant number of users will interpret this policy as prohibiting such articles. Any thoughts? DHowell 03:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Day to day schedules are inappropriate. As I mentioned in some of the similar threads above, a key question is how often the information involved will change. In the case of day-to-day television network schedules, the answer is that they change fairly frequently, meaning the scheduling information is not going to be stable in the long run. Day-to-day operating schedules are therefore not appropriate for general encyclopedia entries on a topic; it's better to simply include an external link to such schedules. Dugwiki 15:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That's understandable, as a maintenance concern. Schedules which change from day to day or week to week are generally not appropriate in an encyclopedia. However, what about lists of programs produced by a particular station or network which tend to be stable over long periods of time? For example, if a station had the same newscast schedule for the last 10 years, would it appropriate to include such a schedule? Also, the major network schedules also often change on a weekly basis (and sometimes programs are canceled with a less than a day's notice), so frequency of updates can't be the only critieria for inclusion; for example, fall U.S. network schedules are typically included (with wide consensus to do so) because they are widely reported by dozens if not hundreds of reliable sources. And the criteria as presently worded also says "programme lists", which seems to prohibit pages such as List of programs broadcast by Discovery Channel, which had consensus to keep in 2006. Again, how can we change the wording of this section to be clearer? DHowell 20:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I actually agree that the phrase "programme lists" should be removed or replaced, since lists of both current and former programmes can be acceptable (see List of programs broadcast by Discovery Channel as an example of a list of current and former programmes that was kept). What isn't ok would be lists of "current programmes", which would suffer the maintainence issues above. Someone also mentioned in the related discussion for this wording that copying and pasting program schedules can violate copyright. Dugwiki 20:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

To this end I removed the phrase "programme lists" from that section. Since it's a recent addition, but seems to be a little problematic, better to take it out for now and discuss whether or not to replace it with another phrase. Note that it might not even be necessary at all, since the current language does specifically mention "schedules".Dugwiki 21:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

What we need to do is rather than have mere lists of programmes, encourage editors to describe in prose the programmes on a certain channel, based on notable programmes which have made their mark or featured in a number of third party sources rather than produce a long and exhausted list of programmes which a channel has broadcast. For example, though it is a bad example at the moment because it needs cleaning up, Channel 4 programming at least explains the what Channel 4 commissions on its channel and notes the programmes which have shaped the channel over its years as a controversial and outspoken channel. Although it still goes down the route of having a long list of programmes (many redlinked), it is a step in the right direction. In terms of Channel 4's history as a distinguished broadcaster of controversial programmes that push the boundaries of what is acceptable on television, a mere programme list would have been an insult to the channel's historic notability (or even notoriety).

Many of the programme lists in channels are just long unsourced lists of non-verified programmes. For example, Cartoon Network (UK). The list goes for as long as the eye can see, has no sources to verify if any of the programmes have been broadcast on Cartoon Network, and even includes future programmes (possible violating Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball). CBeebies has been long plagued with vandalism from editors, and all vandalism to the article has focused solely on the programme list, with editors adding programmes never screened on the channel, and other editors reverting the changes made. Even after I suggested that every programme be verified with a source, the vandalism continued. There is no indication either of what is currently broadcast and what was broadcast on a channel. Programme lists suffer the same problem as schedules, in that a programme is added to a list and is then left, and it could be that a programme is being shown as being broadcast on a channel in Misplaced Pages, whereas in reality the programme has been axed from a channel or even bought up by another broadcaster, thereby making the programme list irrelevant, redundant and factually incorrect.

Programme lists also have no set guidance on what should be included, in terms of notability. What makes a programme notable enough to be included in a list. Would a programme that was influential on BBC One also be included on a programme list for UKTV Gold, if the same programme doesn't have the same impact on that channel? Would all programmes broadcast on one channel be notable? Because if that is the case, the BBC One list will be extremely huge, since BBC One has been broadcasting a regular television service (except for the Second World War) since 1936! Programme lists generally bring more trouble than they are worth in my opinion. The better compromise would be, where possible, the programming policy of a channel should be described in prose, alongside examples of notable programmes on a channel, where notability of its media and social impact have been catalogued and shown in a number of third party texts, which will be more valuable to readers than a mere long list of programmes.

Schedules, as in my original proposal to be added to this policy, should, for current schedules, be kept out of Misplaced Pages and remain the preserve of scheduling and TV Guide websites, who can keep schedules up to date and have the copyright (where applicable) to reprint schedules from broadcasters. From experience, schedules are usually added once and never updated. Schedules are copyright of the broadcaster or the website of where the schedule is hosted in a lot of cases (ie. a copy and paste job from a website) and should be removed on sight. Historic schedules should remain as they can provide a snapshot of a timeframe of television where a textual analysis should also accompany the schedule, but of course, as long as they follow Misplaced Pages policy on verification and notability. --tgheretford (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the invite to this discussion, Tghe. I would not have known about this conversation if you hadn't left a note on my talk page. Misplaced Pages's Five Pillars set the record straight on the issue of program schedules: The very first line of the page states: "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia incorporating elements of general encyclopedias, specialized encyclopedias, and almanacs."

Misplaced Pages is meant to be both a general encyclopedia and a specialized encyclopedia. At least three television encyclopedias that I know of contain national network program schedules. Total Television (McNeil, 4th ed) at 1,251 pages, dubs itself "The classic television encyclopedia is also the most complete!" and "The comprehensive guide to programming from 1948 to the present". The text contains 5,400 articles on television series and also contains national network program grids from 1948 to present. There are also several competing television encyclopedias (Brooks and Marsh), (Brooks), etc, which contain these national program schedules. Clearly, they think the material is encyclopedic, and these volumes have been around since the 1960s.

It's only been recently, with the growth of Misplaced Pages, that we have started to see these (in my opinion) odd claims that national network program schedules are "unencyclopedic". Material that has been included in encyclopedias for decades has been declared unencyclopedic by editors who are either unfamiliar with TV encyclopedias, or unaware that the Five Pillars of Misplaced Pages claim that Misplaced Pages is both a specialized and generalized encyclopedia.

Further, Misplaced Pages consensus has usually been that national network program schedules are encyclopedic and educational. resulted in the keep of five national network program schedules (the rest were, oddly, never nominated).

There has been an insistence from some Misplaced Pages sectors that only prose is a valid form of text in an encyclopedia. I'm not sure where this idea came from, but anyone who has read a text encyclopedia has found plenty of tables and directories in them. These tables work where prose cannot: town directories for State/National maps, tables of data for items which would be extremely repetitive in prose form, etc. Programming grids present data in an easily readable format that prose cannot duplicate.

Finally, there has been some confusion over the copyright status of program grids. Just like a train schedule, which contains a list of times when the train will stop, a program schedule cannot be copyrighted in the United States, because it is not a work of creative process; it's a timetable. This is discussed at more length here. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreeing to consensus

What about a compromise where the TV/Radio Guide is removed and replaced with the more correct (and covering just current schedules) term - electronic program guide (written in American English)? This is more in keeping that TV/Radio guides can be kept and record historic trends in programmes, whereas an EPG will delete old schedule data and only show current or forthcoming schedules.

Changes are underlined.

Doesn't cover lists of programmes within the policy, but I still believe that programme lists should move away from just long lists of programmes and attempt to explain in prose the policies for buying and producing programmes for a particular channel, as explained in my argument above as well as in Channel 4 programming. Maybe this should be covered in another policy, Misplaced Pages:Notability maybe? --tgheretford (talk) 16:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I would go along with this, but I would replace "historic notable" with "historically significant". Truly notable schedules should get their own article, but an article ought to be able to contain schedules which are historically significant to the subject of the article, without the schedule itself having to pass notability standards. And while "historic" implies only schedules which are no longer current, "historically significant" could even allow for future schedules under certain circumstances. It doesn't take a crystal ball to know that 2007-08 United States network television schedule is both "historically significant" and "notable", even though it is a "forthcoming" schedule. DHowell 07:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to challenge your assertion that the 2007-08 schedule information is "historically significant". 81.104.175.145 21:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

How would you challenge it? By claiming that because it is a future event, that it cannot be historic? Or that because it is only a schedule it isn't historic? Actually, these schedules are planned months in advance; the 2007-2008 one has already been released for at least five major US television networks. These schedules affect 300 million television viewers each year, and the schedules themselves play a part in which shows will be seen the following year: shows which are placed at the same time as a hit series often will not be renewed the following year. The schedules also affect the thousands of local TV stations in the United States which carry the signals; while many stations will carry the programs on the schedules, there will be some stations that are dissatisfied with the current schedule, and drop parts of the schedule ("pre-empting") or drop the network entirely. Network schedules also affect syndication and cable TV. In fact, the entire US television industry, thousands of local businesses, entertainers, even industry, is greatly affected by these schedules, even those which have just been announced. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm challenging it on the basis that you haven't actually suggested why the schedule information is "historically significant" beyond Because I Said So. 81.104.175.145 23:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, because that's what I said. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

So, erm, ... do we get a real reason any time soon, or are you just going to continue being awkward? 81.104.175.145 02:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You've been given a reason, and you haven't responded in any way that indicates why you think this reasoning is wrong. So far, your responses have been essentially the equivalent of plugging your ears and saying "I'm not listening! I'm not listening!", or The Argument Sketch from Monty Python. DHowell 22:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Given the malleability of program schedules and given that such information really belongs in a TV guide rather than in an encyclopedia, we should link to external sites (cnn.com, etc) that already cover the program guides better than we can. >Radiant< 08:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I edited my original suggestion, but I am just wondering how to incorporate the suggestions that current schedules should link to a reliable external source into the above compromise? --tgheretford (talk) 08:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Historically significant program schedules do not usually appear on external sites (certainly not CNN.com!), but do appear in television encyclopedias. Firsfron of Ronchester 09:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My opinion is that historical, season-by-season program grids for national networks are of encyclopedic interest, consisting of the program lineup at the start of the season (and perhaps a few notes indicating subsequent mid-season lineup changes). However, it would be too much clutter to go much beyond this, like to attempt to include local program listings for every station or day-by-day listings including specials and the like. *Dan T.* 19:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that reading through the responses, the above compromise matches consensus here. Unless anyone disputes it, I shall add it to the policy later. --tgheretford (talk) 07:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'd dispute it or not, but I'm not clear on what exactly a "historically significant" schedule would be. Putting in program schedules seems to me the exact thing that NOT a directory tells us not to do. We're not TV Guide, we certainly shouldn't have such things except in very rare cases and for very good reason. Seraphimblade 07:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The above compromise works for me. Historically significant schedules aren't the sort of local schedules that appear in TV Guide. They're the national grids that affected 300 million viewers every year. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I've made the changes to policy as per the above. Just {{schedule}} to check now. --tgheretford (talk) 11:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to lodge an objection - how do we define a "historically significant" television schedule? What would be the defining characteristics as such? Without this information, to me it just looks like we've relaxed WP:NOT to allow something we previously didn't allow for good reason into the encyclopaedia. I'd also go so far as to suggest that we can't declare that the previous standing was not a valid consensus due to lack of participation and then declare that we have consensus here on an equally low level of participation. 81.104.175.145 13:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that is an acceptable change, although it really does not change much. Current schedules are, and were, 'excluded', and very well so; while "historically significant" ones - which I presume would be the ones discussed in non-trivial independent secondary sources - would already have a case for inclusion. Yet I think the previous wording " TV/Radio guide" may be clearer than the current " electronic program guide" as WP is, by nature, an "electronic something". And we do not say "WP is not an electronic FAQ", "WP is not an electronic Travel Guide", "WP is not an electronic Memorial", etc. - Nabla 14:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The correct term for an electronic program guide is an electronic program guide, so that term is correct. --tgheretford (talk) 17:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

And where did I said it was not? I simply said that, in my opinion, the preavious wording was clearer. - Nabla 18:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that, even though it was put on the Village Pump, people are just not going to participate in this debate, unless there is a article for deletion discussion on a article which is a programme list or a schedule. Discussion on this issue should really have be done when that AfD (in the original post) had just closed, when it was clear that WP:NOT wasn't working or was not to the benefit of the community. The only way things will go forward here is through compromise and consensus. If the section is disputed, it needs to be tagged as such (how for project pages, I don't know) but I can't think of nothing more to gain more opinions on this article, less someone posts it at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion. I'm stumped! --tgheretford (talk) 17:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to add to my post regarding the tag needed, is this the correct one: {{underdiscussion}}? --tgheretford (talk) 18:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it was the case that WP:NOT was not working, but rather some people not understanding it. "List of programmes broadcast by X" is indiscriminate however you frame it. Why do we care? If anything, it should be the other way around, with programme articles showing the broadcasters that have carried it. "List of programmes made by X", on the other hand, is more meaningful - it provides scope to develop to the point where the "List of" part can be dropped (as in Channel 4 programmes).

I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but in the US, only a small percentage of television programs are made (produced by) the company which broadcasts them. I don't know why the scope would be any different, and these lists would be far more prolific (under a dozen broadcast networks vs hundreds of production companies) if they were refactored into lists of shows made by production companies. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

A pseudo-random list of everything a network has ever broadcast is not of encyclopaedic value (it is indiscriminate), but rather the fact that a given network broadcast a given programme belongs more readily on the article about the programme. As an example for the sort of thing I'm talking about, the BBC is one of the biggest producers of programme content in the world, hence a list of major programmes they have made is of more value than a list of things they have decided to import for each of their domestic outlets. I would imagine that the networks have sufficient exclusivity over some original content as to make such lists feasible. I'm not in any way suggesting we need a List of programmes produced by Acme Productions, but rather that the current lists be pared back by including some sensible selection criteria. 81.104.175.145 23:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Sensible to whom? It is not at all clear to me that the BBC is a representative example of one of these lists. Certainly, commercial American network content is rarely imported (in the sense of coming from another country) because networks rarely believe foreign programs will be profitable or viable. Their programs are produced mostly by outside developers who may or may not have some affiliation with the network. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Since nobody can put forward an argument that some television schedules are historically significant, I'm going to remove that particular clause from the paragraph. 81.104.175.145 22:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, arguments have already been put forward above. At the very least, things which companies spend millions of dollars creating and promoting, which are covered and discussed by multiple reliable souces, which affect hundreds of millions of people across the country every year to the extent that many actually plan their daily life around them, and thus become part of the culture, are "historically significant" by any reasonable definition of the term. DHowell 22:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

They don't meet reasonable definitions of "historically significant", because you've failed to make the important connection to specific instances. True, many people plan their lives around television schedules, so there's no reason for us not to have an article about television schedules. That is not the same as having an article containing television schedules. As an appropriate analogy, millions of people rely on the railway network around London and south-east England, which is why we have articles about them. However, we don't have the timetable for peak-time services out of London Bridge station. 81.104.175.145 13:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

links to commercial sites

There's a wikipedia page -- Le Bureau with links to amazon and fnac (a french retailer) to buy DVDs of the TV show covered in the wiki. This is clearly not appropriate but I didn't read anything on "what wikipedia is not" that explicitly states links like these are not allowed. Tehw1k1 12:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think what you're looking for is better covered by the external links guideline (WP:EL). If you really want a WP:NOT section, I'd say that the advertising section of WP:SOAP certainly implies by omission that such links are inapprorpiate. -Chunky Rice 18:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Names of private individuals

I've add this to "Newspaper reports":

In general the names of private individuals may often be redacted without loss of significant information.

Quite often we'll compile information from newspaper reports where named private individuals are interviewed. This doesn't make them public individuals, and there is a risk that our including their names in the account of the event, where it isn't really necessary, will cause the event to become indelibly associated with them. I'm thinking in particular of the survivors of the Virginia Tech shooting, but it applies in many other cases. --Tony Sidaway 16:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it. No need for it here, and it seems like an attempt to get it added because not enough people agree with you at the article. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. The removal of names has been very effective there and I think it should be taken up as a general principle. --Tony Sidaway 16:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Your edits haven't held up, and there's significant opposition. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's set aside our difference on the facts. Could you explain your opposition to the principle? --Tony Sidaway 16:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

No, let's deal with facts. Can you explain the necessity? --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

In a word, privacy. I'd like you to explain your opposition to the statement that In general the names of private individuals may often be redacted without loss of significant information. This is the text that your removed. Do you believe it to be an untruthful statement? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tony Sidaway (talk • contribs) 16:45, 9 June 2007.

How does published information such as that violate privacy? I do believe that do be an untruthful statement. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

All publication of an individual's name compromises privacy a little.

Journalists justify their actions by the requirements of credibility and the fact that their reports will only expose the individual for a brief period. Theirs is the main source of news, so it's appropriate for them, for instance, to report the names of living individuals involved, in a minor way, in larger events.

We're not journalists, and we're collating information rather than producing it. We refer to sources that contain the names, so we're not compromising completeness by removing the names of, say, people wounded in a massacre. Moreover our article is not intended for brief publication, but to be there basically forever--the whole life of this person. It makes sense to take reasonable steps by asking "does using this private person's name add significant information to the article?" The answer may sometimes by that it does, but often it doesn't. Random victims of a gunman are there by chance. Their personal backgrounds, names and so on where not relevant to the actions of the gunman are private information. This is simply a reminder that we should treat private information with respect and not use it unnecessarily. --Tony Sidaway 16:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, no. Their names are no longer private, so there's no privacy concerns. The entire basis is flawed. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I find Tony's point quite sound, and judging from this revert, Tom harrison agrees as well. I don't think we should look on it as if once names are no longer private, it's okay to publicise them further, when it's unnecessary. There are different levels of publicity, and if Misplaced Pages is making the name of a private individual more notable than it would otherwise be, we need to ask ourselves if this is necessary and if it's in accordance with our principles. One thing I will say, though, is that I don't really like "in general" + "often". I'd take out the "in general" and leave the "often". ElinorD (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree - it costs us nothing to respect non-public individuals' privacy. Orderinchaos 17:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Names don't suddenly become private. It's unrealistic. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

They don't suddenly become public either. In many cases they are aired in one news report or a few related which, after the hype dies down, gets archived and can't even be found on the news service's own site. I know of specific cases where, through a misspelling or sheer failure to check up on facts, the wrong individual has ended up becoming a target of hate mail or worse. Orderinchaos 17:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with ElinorD's suggestion, so I've removed "In general" from the beginning of the sentence. It was just a linguistic tic like "erm", and added nothing. --Tony Sidaway 17:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

While I do not completely see eye-to-eye with Elinor and Tony on BLP, I do strongly agree with this particular interpretation. Even if ethical arguments are rejected, there is a legal distinction between public and private persons. Simple exposure to the public eye is not sufficient to classify someone as a public individual. Misplaced Pages's prominence makes it practically a publicist, which makes this a legitimate concern. IANAL, so I won't presume to lay out an opinion about where that line falls. However, as individuals and a community, we do have to weigh these legal concerns. Vassyana 17:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, I'm wondering if you're failing to see the difference between bad and very bad. I just can't agree with the argument that simply because a private person has been unfortunate enough to be put in the public eye because of the actions of another, it's okay to increase the publicity inflicted on that person, and to make damn sure that the person's name is memorialised forever in search engines. I'm positive you don't mean it this way, so I really don't intend to be offensive, but it seems like saying that some person isn't rich any more as a lot of their money was stolen, so it's okay to steal some more of it. There are degrees of publicity, and having lost some of your privacy doesn't make you "fair game" for anyone who wants to write an article about you. Do you think the people involved would say that being in twenty-seven newspapers over a period of two weeks plus being added to Misplaced Pages forever is no worse for them than just being in twenty-seven newspapers over a period of two weeks? ElinorD (talk) 17:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the analogy. Google is king now - we can't do any more harm than what has already been done if it's been published previously, and it's high time we get on board with that reality. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that it's not possible for Misplaced Pages to increase a person's publicity, or are you saying that it doesn't matter if Misplaced Pages increases unwanted publicity once the person has lost some of their privacy? ElinorD (talk) 18:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Both, actually, in this context. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Once something appears in WP, even if it deleted, the AfD discussion almost always remains, & the article & its talk page remains in the mirrors and the web archives--even if oversighted, it still remains in archives. There is nothing that WP can do to prevent this; for all the recent dilemmas about BLP, we can only lower the visibility contribution from WP, not eliminate it.If anything, the intensity of the discussions here may serve to increase it. Perhaps we should do as first-class newspapers do, and accept that if it appears in the NYT or the like, a careful decision has been made by their editors that it's OK, and they have much more experience and professionalism in dealing with these matters than we do. DGG 19:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The whole point is, DGG, that this isn't a newspaper. But I'm not arguing for the elimination of all names of private individuals from Misplaced Pages. I'm just putting a reminder into this policy document that we can often do a perfectly good job without invading privacy. And needless to say, so we should whereever it is possible. To invade privacy "because we can" is not on the agenda. This is what "Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper archive" means. --Tony Sidaway 04:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

"that this isn't a newspaper." - Tony, we derive our sources from newspapers. How Misplaced Pages differs is that Misplaced Pages does not take stances and does not solely act like the news. There are MAJOR, MAJOR problems with your addition. "The names of private individuals may often be redacted without loss of significant information." - 1. Who is a private individual? Also, 2. If the definition is broadly expanded to include people involved in nationally famous incidents, what if the readers disagree and start to lose confidence in Misplaced Pages? Tony, please write a definition of "private individual" before continuing with this. WhisperToMe 12:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, folks, Tony does NOT want to list the names of the injured survivors at List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre - And please see the associated talk page. WhisperToMe 13:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• • "They don't suddenly become public either. In many cases they are aired in one news report or a few related which, after the hype dies down, gets archived and can't even be found on the news service's own site. I know of specific cases where, through a misspelling or sheer failure to check up on facts, the wrong individual has ended up becoming a target of hate mail or worse." - This isn't the case with VTech as there were HUNDREDS of press reports across various press sources around the world. Also, the particular information here cannot defame the victims. WhisperToMe 13:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• I agree with Tony's statement as it currently stands. Cbrown1023 talk 13:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • What we need to is to find a definition of a private individual. IMO, it needs to EXCLUDE people such as the Virginia Tech injured. WhisperToMe 13:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

    The survivors of the Virginia Tech massacre present, in my opinion, a good example of private individuals whose mention in newspapers was solely related to the random acts of a madman. We probably should be (and as a matter of fact, we are) considering whether any encyclopedic purpose is served by listing their names, if descriptions like "21-year-old Bolivian physics student" will do just as well. But the answer to that question could be yes or no and it wouldn't mean the question should not be asked. --Tony Sidaway 13:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

    • The question should be asked, yes. I considered the case. Each case should be considered individually and case-by-case. Upon realizing the swarm of news media reports from major international outlets (as pointed out earlier, their editorial departments are not pushovers) and finding evidence of similar lists created by other newspapers, I decided that including the names is the best policy in the case of V-Tech victims; not including them will confuse the reader, as he or she will not understand why they are listed. Even if she finds the reason, he or she will most likely not sympathize with the reason. Out of all of the groups discussing the disaster, the only one I know that excludes names of individuals already discussed in sources is (at times) Misplaced Pages. NOW, there are cases where only a few press reports exist with a given name exist for a lower-profile incident or where the name is in an insignificant role (E.G. a looter took a stereo during the fire). WhisperToMe 13:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

      Well we're agreed that the question should be asked. Your points should be taken into consideration in the discussion on the relevant article talk page. --Tony Sidaway 14:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the point is that this is a principle not a rule. It would be for editors working on an article to make the call. Sometimes it will be patently ridiculous to exclude names, other times to include them will be gratuitous. All this change does is flag up a consideration to editors, to balance with other considerations. To that degree it should be unobjectionable.--Doc 13:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• In that case, since WP:WIWO is considered to be official policy, we should rewrite Tony's addition and state that the idea of excluding names is a principle, and that editors should have judgement call on when to include or to exclude. There may be cases where Tony's principle works (I.E. cases based on few press reports and cases where the info can defame individuals) WhisperToMe 13:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

  The present wording merely says that the names of private individuals may often be redacted without loss of significant information. It doesn't say they have to be, but does imply that it's a good thing to avoid unnecessary invasions of privacy. I hope we can all agree on that. --Tony Sidaway 13:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I would add this statement or something similar: "Editors should determine which additions of names constitute as invasions of privacy" to make clear that editors determine cases individually. WhisperToMe 13:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

    Any use of the name of a living person in Misplaced Pages reduces that person's privacy. The question to ask is: is this particular compromise of the person's privacy necessary? Many of them are, particularly when discussing, say, politicians, broadcasters, writers, princes and other people who are in Misplaced Pages because of what they do or did or who they are. In the case of very famous people such as Paris Hilton or George W. Bush, the kind of information we hold on them in Misplaced Pages is not a significant invasion of privacy in any case. With less well known living people, the invasion of privacy is significant. --Tony Sidaway 14:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

    • There is a level between "George W. Bush" and the kinds of "less well known living people" who, if their names were published, would have significant invasion of privacy. People involved in international incidents who were not known before are at the point where publishing their names would not amount to much. WhisperToMe 14:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• I agree absolutely with the principle. I'm not convinced that it should be in WP:NOT, though. Seems like it would be better suited for WP:BLP. -Chunky Rice 14:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

We already have WP:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy WhisperToMe 14:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's a bad idea in general to have people really consider carefully whether a name should be included or not. Normally, it would probably depend on how widely known the individual's name already is. If every source used lists them by name, we can very likely include it without doing any harm—it's already public knowledge, and specificity is good in a reference work. On the other hand, if they're just mentioned as part of the incident and you really got to dig to get the name, it probably should not be included. Just like anything else—reflect the sources, don't second-guess them. Seraphimblade 14:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim, if you look at List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre and look at the sources for the injured, you won't have to go far to find names, therefore, in that case, "it's already public knowledge" WhisperToMe 14:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Each case should be considered on its merits. This discussion is about the general principle. --Tony Sidaway 14:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Names of private individuals break 1

Seems to me that there's consensus here on the principle - but some justified concern that this shouldn't be a general rule used to quash discussion, but merely advisory. Can we find some extra words that will satisfy the legitimate concerns? What about:

"Editors should consider whether, in a particular article, the names of private individuals could be redacted without the loss of significant information."

That's certainly not prescriptive. And it allows for the conclusion "no, there would be a significant loss" to be reached in any particular case.--Doc 15:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay for me, though I think the current version is fine, too. --Tony Sidaway 15:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too, but I'm trying to accommodate some concerns.--Doc 15:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I like this version. Let's include that wherever it is appropriate (either here or the page about information about living people). WhisperToMe 15:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I like this phrasing better, and think BLP seems a more appropriate place for it. Brighterorange 17:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

SchmuckyTheCat has changed the word "private" to "non-notable". I don't like that myself because it's a Misplaced Pages jargon word and I'm not sure I know what it means. The term private individual here seems more straightforward in this context. --Tony Sidaway 18:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I modified the wording of the new sentence to the following:

In order to help keep articles concise, efficient, and on-topic, and to help reduce privacy concerns, editors should consider whether, in a particular article, the names of specific individuals could be redacted without the loss of non-trivial information to the article.

There are a couple of reasons for the change. First, I don't think the distinction between "private" and "public" or "notable" and "non-notable" is necessary for this sentence. Either the name of the person is necessary for the article or it isn't, and either the name is verifiable from published reliable sources or it isn't. Trying to additionally determine "private" versus "public" standing gets in the way of the central question which is "is the name of the person just trivial information that can be safely deleted, or is it actually a non-trivial part of the article that should be kept?"

I also added an introduction to the sentence that briefly outlines two reasons for the procedure. First, it helps keep articles more concise and on-topic by removing unnecessary trivial information. Second, it reduces privacy concerns by removing the names of people in cases when their actual names aren't really relevant to the article.

Hopefully these changes improve the sentence. Overall I'm ok with the general principle of articles being kept on-topic and efficient, and with the idea of removing names of people who aren't really important to the subject at hand. Dugwiki 15:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• My only concern is that there are other reasons to keep names in an article aside from losing information. The primary that I can think of is clarity. Having multiple unidentified parties (even if their identities aren't important to the article) could be very confusing to read. -Chunky Rice 17:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's probably a valid concern. I'll change it to "information or necessary clarity". Dugwiki 17:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Not censored v. deletion of well sourced BLPs?

Recently, we've had a number of articles deleted due to claims of BLP concerns or related issues although everyone has agreed that the information was reliably sourced. Is this contradicting the claim that Misplaced Pages is not censored or not? JoshuaZ 19:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say not. I would describe this as editorial discretion, not censorship. Most of this, for me, falls under Misplaced Pages is not a collection of indiscriminate information, and the undue weight provision of the so-called neutral point of view policy (I prefer to call it the "keep the article balanced and unbiased" policy). Even if material can be reliably sourced, it is not always necessary or desirable to include it. This can be on the grounds of style, taste, format, and various other reasons. For BLPs it is generally due to the material being non-notable or frivolous. People are too quick to say "but it is sourced". The correct order of the questions is: (a) Is this relevant or needed? and only then say (b) a source is needed for this material. Not, "I've found a source, so it must be OK to put it in the article". That is completely the wrong way round. Write or edit an article with a eye for due balance and weight, and add sources as needed. Don't try and shoehorn in everything the sources report. Reflect the sources, don't replicate them. It's difficult, but no-one said writing an encyclopedia was easy. Carcharoth 20:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I came here to see if anyone had made the observation that JoshuaZ has made above. The deletion of well-sourced BLPs -- those sourced from major media outlets, as opposed to, say, JayHenryshappyplace.blogspot.com -- is most definitely censorship. The article on Allison Stokke was most definitely censored. Is that a bad thing? I'm not really sure. Is it censorship? Absolutely. And it's getting increasingly Orwellian to pretend otherwise. Media outlets have censored things throughout history. That's okay, necessary even. But if community consensus develops that WP:BLP should contain a broad censorship clause, this needs to be addressed here. --JayHenry 20:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

But censorship comes in many different forms. Censorship (which may not be that reliable of course) says: "The term "censorship" is often used as a pejorative term to signify a belief that a group controlling certain information is using this control improperly or for its own benefit, or preventing others from accessing information that should be made readily accessible" - in this case, the information being excluded from Misplaced Pages is available elsewhere. Anyone reading Misplaced Pages can go and read the missing information somewhere else. It is an editorial decision to not include the information here. To take a trivial example, a list of telephone numbers is not something that has a place in Misplaced Pages, but removing that information is not censorship, it is just putting reasonable limits on what Misplaced Pages should contain. Misplaced Pages is not meant to cover everything, and deciding where the limits are placed is not censorship. Carcharoth 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Under this argument, removing the image of a penis on the penis article is not censorship nor is removing a picture of the Bahá'u'lláh. This argument seems to be a bit too broad. JoshuaZ 01:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing said pictures in an encyclopedia that allows them would be censorship. Removing said pictures in an encylopedia that doesn't allow then would simply be conforming to the policy of that encyclopedia (say, one aimed at a specific market that would be offended by such images). Misplaced Pages aims at a broad readership, and so doesn't remove such images. Carcharoth 15:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not censored" is just something SPUI and I dreamed up one day to stop people removing a picture of a clitoris from the clitoris article and pictures of a penis from the penis article.

It does not mean that Misplaced Pages is irresponsible. --Tony Sidaway 21:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

That's funny. Have you found a link to the original insertion of that clause of the policy? :-) And the irresponsible argument should be used with care. Some would say (though I'm not one of them) that putting pictures such as those in articles is irresponsible. Guidelines and policies are sometimes meant to reduce reliance on editorial discretion (which often ends up as edit wars among editors who can't agree), but sometimes you have to leave things to be decided on a case-by-case basis without generalisation. Carcharoth 21:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is where SPUI added the gist of it, and over the next few days I batted it back and forth with Dr Zen. It became an established part of policy. It has mutated a bit and now carries a more general "no censorship" message (which is fine, policy changes like that). I think it's useful, but if someone tells me it means we have to have crap in the Encyclopedia I laugh. --Tony Sidaway 02:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Having a policy which acknowledges the rights of living people to fair treatment is not censorship. Furthermore, JoshauZ's claims that "everyone has agreed that the information was reliably sourced" is a very partial presentation. Often what happens is that editors believe information is well sourced because they do not properly understand (or don't want to acknowledge) what counts as a reliable source and what doesn't. FNMF 01:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Assuming that this has any relationship to fair treatment is probably faulty. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

FNMF, At least in this case everyone agreed that the information was in reliable sources and in at least two other cases no one was claiming otherwise. There wouldn't be much of an issue if these recent deletions were of poorly sourced or questionably sourced information. But almost uniformily they are well sourced. JoshuaZ 02:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not my reading of the Stokke case. FNMF 02:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you claiming that the Washington Post and the New York Times are not reliable sources? JoshuaZ 02:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not about to re-debate the Stokke entry here. Sources are necessary not just to reference an article, but to establish the notability of the subject. A mention of a name in a newspaper does not necessarily establish encyclopaedic notability. If there are no reliable sources establishing encyclopaedic notability, then an article should be deleted. FNMF 02:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You know, I'm not going to re-debate entries either, so I'll simply note that everyone else seemed to agree that these were reliable sources and if you really want I'll a small footnote above that FNMF has somehow gotten into his head that WP:N or maybe something else somehow requires not only us to have reliable sources but the reliable sources to explicitly say that the topic in question is encyclopedic (and I'm not even going to bother going into a long digression about how much we would need to delete all over the project if anything like that were remotely policy or guideline). Now, to get us back on track. Given that such deletions have occured and given that the vast majority of editors agreed that we had reliable sources, does this conflict with the item in WP:NOT? JoshuaZ 02:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say we need "reliable sources to explicitly say that the topic in question is encyclopaedic." I said the reliable sources must not merely mention somebody's name but must serve to establish the encyclopaedic notability of the subject (in contrast, for example, to the notability sufficient for a newspaper to mention their name in the daily news). Notability justifying a mention in a newspaper is not the same thing as notability justifying an entry in an encyclopaedia, even if one of the ways that encyclopaedic notability may be established is through newspaper coverage. FNMF 05:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

FNMF, please read WP:N and then explain to me a) whether what you are asserting has anything to do with what is written there and b) how we tell whether reliable sources establish encyclopedic notability other than FNMF's personal say so? JoshuaZ 15:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The way you decide (not 'tell') whether reliable sources establish encyclopedic notability is to discuss it with others on the talk pages in borderline cases. There is no way you can run your finger down a neat list of tickpoints to get the answer you want. At some point you will have to discuss borderline cases. Carcharoth 15:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

JoshuaZ, there is a difference between notability sufficient to warrant a biographical entry for a living person in an encyclopaedia, and notability sufficient to garner a mention in a daily newspaper. Grasping that difference is fairly basic for anybody who wishes to write BLP entries in an encyclopaedia. If the notion that there is such a difference is totally foreign to you, I'm not sure what to suggest, except perhaps that you should consider staying away from editing BLP entries. FNMF 15:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Using the death of a child for political purposes

This may be slightly off the point but is the mentioning of the name of a convicted criminal in the context of the crime they committed acceptable and what is the policy on reporting someone who is dead?--Lucy-marie 09:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That would depend on context. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 20:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Frankly it's hard to think of a reason in an article about a crime not to mention the name of the criminal convicted of it, assuming the information is properly referenced. On the other hand, I would probably be a little more cautious when someone is simply suspected of having committed a crime but it hasn't been proven in court. Suspicion can start getting into the realm of rumor and speculation, and we obviously don't want an article to imply someone is guilty of a crime they didn't commit. Just my opinion. Dugwiki 21:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Precisely - if they are in the encyclopaedia for no reason other than their alleged crime, we might as well be saying they're guilty. 81.104.175.145 18:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy

Is it fascism, then?

No, didn't you know? Misplaced Pages is communism! --Tony Sidaway 04:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Communism on wheels! JoshuaZ 16:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

More seriously ... ahem ;-) ... "Misplaced Pages is not a democracy" means that decisions are not made through plurality or majority voting. -- Black Falcon 18:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I was being... what's the word? Sarcastic? Facetious? Just look at my profile. Kobra 15:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Pro Wrestling on Misplaced Pages

I have a lot of questions as to some regulations on Pro Wrestling on Misplaced Pages.

1. Why can't matches announced on tv, for ppv or tv, be added to wrestlers articles?

2. Why are pages like John Cena and recently Vince McMahon always locked for some reason?

3. Why are all additions to pages removed by the likes of The Hybrid or BMG? They are not the bosses of Misplaced Pages. I thought that wikipedia was avalible for anyone to edit.

4. Trivia that is very important to articles is always removed but useless information is added in by the bucket load. ie. John Cena's crowd reactions at WM 22 and 23, ONS 2 and during his feuds with Y2J Angle Edge HHH HBK and many others, yet the color of his shoes is added on a regular basis. Cena's audience backlash and the 5-6 moves of doom are allways deleted but they are both very important and are mentioned on tv nonstop whenever he is on tv.

Something needs to be done about these problems or information seeking people are gonna be left in the dark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.21.121 (talk • contribs)

These questions belong on the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject professional wrestling. Tayquan _{My work} 05:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information

I would like to re-word a sentence in the above named title , Number seven, “Plot Summaries”. I would suggest removing the word “Fiction” and inserting the word “published”. The sentence would read as follows:

Plot summaries. Misplaced Pages articles on published works should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic. See Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction).

The reason I would suggest this change, is that this section is linked to the criteria outlined in Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) Section titled Criteria Number one. The fact that Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction) has its own link, this would make including it in the first line redundant. In the intrest of editors, I am using this criteria in a discussion on Notability (books) Regards --Domer48 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

New guidelines

I have an idea for new WP:NOT guidelines:

Misplaced Pages is not America-centric

Just because something is not notable in the United States does not mean it is not notable elsewhere in the English-speaking world. As long as it is notable in a nation where the English language is spoken (U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa, The Bahamas, Belize, Guyana, or others), it belongs on the English-language Misplaced Pages.

Misplaced Pages is not perfect

As Misplaced Pages expands, articles will appear that initially are not perfectly encyclopedia-standard. If you find one that is notable but not encyclopedia-standard, help us out! Add to it, or if you are not knowledgeable in the subject, flag it with the proper template so someone who knows about the subject can!

These are, of course, introductory ideas. Thoughts? --Kitch 14:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

RE: American-centric, see Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus. --sony-youth 01:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

We don't just write about things that are important to English speaking countries, we write about things that are important anywhere, and do so in English. --bainer (talk) 04:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Strong agreement with Bainer on the first one, there's nothing in WP:N that states a topic has to be notable in an english speaking country. The second one sounds more like it should be at Be Bold than here; these guidelines are all meant to make it clear what contributors are not meant to do, rather than what they should. - Zeibura 05:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Bainer on all points. An object, person, or event that is notable is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages, irrespective of where it is located or took place. This is the English-language Misplaced Pages, not the Anglophone countries' Misplaced Pages. -- Black Falcon 18:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this dead? I still think a WP:NOT for Anglo-American bias is important. --sony-youth 23:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This has long since been part of our Misplaced Pages:Editing policy. It requires no repetition here. Uncle G 16:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Westgate / advertising

I'm no expert in this field, but Westgate Resorts looks like a huge advertisement to me. Am I right? I tried to remove some of it, but I don't know how to do it properly. I think it might be a notable company, but I don't think all of those resort links need to be there. --blm07 08:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Westgate Resorts, it wasn't considered an advertisement as of 23 September 2006 ... OTOH, Some Other Editor has been adding a lot of promotional material in the past few weeks ... you may wish to post your concerns at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, because this talk page is definitely not the correct forum. —72.75.70.147 07:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: WP:NOT Bestower of Awards

I've been stumbling across a lot of "Fathers of X", "Heroes of Y", "Masters of Z" articles lately: Template:Legends_of_Horror_Cinema, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Armenian national heroes and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mother of the Nation. Is it time to create a subsection specifically to articles that group together people this way? I.E. "WP:NOT A bestower of awards". Thanks! - Richfife 21:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• Those rather obviously fail WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. You are correct, but the matter is better covered in those policies. >Radiant< 15:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• In addition to NPOV and NOR, these types of articles may also violate the notability (in conjunction with WP:MEMORIAL if the subject is deceased). -- Black Falcon 18:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

IT would not be OR if an other published source referred to that person as "an Armenian national heroe". SO long as it is sourced. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Per my logic here: , the phrase "Hero of X" is too strong to allow a journalist using it in passing as minimum criteria for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Having Misplaced Pages declare someone a hero because one or two journalists did is going too far. - Richfife 01:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

That would not make it "Armenian heroes" but "Armenians referred to has heroes at least once in the press". Sounds clunky, no? >Radiant< 08:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that "Hero of X" is too subjective to be encyclopedic, we do recognize "hall of fame" members who have been formally inducted into a recognized hall of fame by a vote of a broad membership group. This is an important case of notability, and should be retained. In this case, WP is not bestowing an award, just recognizing one published by a RS. Dhaluza 08:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not clear (or at least one section isn't)

I find often in AFDs people are misusing "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information". The problem seems to be with the word "indiscriminate", which people either don't understand or find vague. It seems some people think this term can be applied to any list, and many other articles. Not to mention, the title of the section doesn't have all the much to do with the section itself. My suggestion is to retitle the section something like "Misplaced Pages is not a guidebook or instruction manual". And to put a separate section under notability or lists which is something like "Article subjects should not be indiscriminately thrown together" (example: Not indiscriminate - List of United States Senators from Ohio, indiscriminate - List of United States Senators with three or more 'E's in their name).
Any thoughts? CitiCat 23:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that some people misinterpret the title of that section more broadly than they should, and this has been a topic of discussion previously on this page. Basically the word "indiscriminate" here simply means that Misplaced Pages reserves the right to "discriminate" against certains miscellaneous types of articles. It does not, though, mean that the section should be read as disallowing "trivia", "pop culture references" and other sorts of "random" information. It is, in fact, the "miscellaneous" section of this policy meant to hold bullet points that don't quite fit the previous sections, and thus should not be applied to the types of articles specifically mentioned in it. (For example, you shouldn't nominate an article simply because you consider it "trivial" using WP:NOT#IINFO, because trivia is never mentioned.)

  If I were going to rename the section, I might try something like "Miscellaneous types of information Misplaced Pages discriminates against". That title tells you that the section is the catch-all section, but gets rid of that slightly ambiguous word "indiscriminate" that some people misinterpret. Dugwiki 16:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• P.S. As a side note, I should point out that WP:NOT#DIR says that Misplaced Pages shouldn't include "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics". So I think a good portion of the complaints on afd that say a list article violates WP:NOT#IINFO should instead refer to the "Not a directory", since a list like "People whose names end in E" would be a list of overly loosely associated subjects. So in that hypothetical case it's not that the article should be allowed, but simply a case of editors possibly referring to the wrong section of WP:NOT in their afd nominations. Dugwiki 16:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The "indiscriminate" wording confuses people, especially when it comes to articles beginning with "List of..." I don't know how many times I've seen this wording cited as a way of arguing for the deletion of something the user didn't like (or didn't know anything about). Firsfron of Ronchester 17:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Dugwiki - yes, that's very much in line with what I'm trying to say. CitiCat 16:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
• I agree that this section heading is confusing and frequently misapplied. (In particular, the "indiscriminate collection of information" is often applied to articles, but the section title refers to Misplaced Pages itself, not the content of a specific article.) I think that a simple, clear, and non-controversial rewording would be "Misplaced Pages is not just a collection of information." — brighterorange (talk) 21:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• Typically, in AFD discussions, when somebody invokes "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" it's basically a version of the "I don't like it" argument. Not unlike the similarly vague "It's not encyclopedic!" -- MisterHand 21:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• What would you guys think of renaming that section to "Other things Misplaced Pages is not"? The rest of the section could stay exactly the same, and we could keep the old # abbreviations for consistency. But that would eliminate the word "indiscriminate" from the title and make a little clearer that the section is for miscellaneous items which don't fit elsewhere in the policy. Dugwiki 15:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think better wording is "Misplaced Pages also is not:" CitiCat 16:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Good suggestion.  :) Dugwiki 16:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think the section can be tweeked to provide workable phrases to use at AfD, such as A Misplaced Pages Article Also Is Not ... 1. A list of Frequently Asked Questions; 2. A Travel Guide; 3. A Memorial; 4. An Instruction Manual; 5. An Internet Guide; 6. A Text Book or Annotated Text; 7. A Plot Summary; 8. A Lyrics database; 9. A list of Statistics; 10. A News Report. If I was going to AfD an article, this would make it simple to post something like "This article should be deleted. A Misplaced Pages article also is not a news report." The word "also" is awkward, but this sections' title needs something to distinguish from the policy as a whole. -- Jreferee 20:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
• "Indiscriminate collection of information" was a section heading invented by SimonP to replace the earlier heading that "Misplaced Pages is not a general knowledgebase", which people found to be confusing. Ironically, it has proven to be just as confusing, simply in a different way. It is the most widely abused part of Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not, leading to the maxim that "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" is not an indiscriminate criterion for deletion. I dealt with part of the problem back in 2006. The remainder is still a problem and still requires further attention. Uncle G 14:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
• In my arguments against interpretations that take 'indiscriminate' as being applied on articles rather than the encyclopedia, I don't believe I've ever gotten a response directing addressing it. Any of the above suggested renamings sound more reasonable. There was a previous discussion on this issue at Misplaced Pages talk:Handling trivia#Incorrect assumption about WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. A current AfD in which I am encountering this is Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fight Club in popular culture (2nd nomination) (don't think this is canvassing, as you can disagree). –Pomte 13:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Indiscriminate == not quality assessed?? I prefer quality assessed information, i.e. pretty true, and very established. As regards to should it be here (?), who am I to know that? Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 15:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)