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This is an archive of past discussions about Lake Skadar. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
On 11:06, 2 August 2005 User:Albanau moved it from Skadar Lake to Shkodër Lake with the log message: Skadar lake is not accepted in the english speaking world, the city Shkodër is located in Albania and it is from the Albanian name of the city near the lake where the lake is the given name
I disagree with this kind of a rationale. A larger part of the lake is in Montenegro, that ought to count for something. Where do you get this information that Skadar lake is "not accepted in the English-speaking world"? --Joy 23:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Granted, Misplaced Pages and its mirrors may have polluted that already. But five thousand compared to three hundred? And then the five thousand aren't accepted in the English-speaking world? --Joy 23:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
When I inverted the order of words, I got 45 vs. 614. A bit smaller ratio, but still. --Joy
1) Constitution of Montenegro in its article 9 says that official language in Montenegro is Serbian. At the moment Montenegrin government has its site in 'Montenegrin' but that is understandable in the situation, and may as well be changed after the next elections, for example. That's too shakey to be taken for granted.
2) None of the major cultural institutions adopted Montenegrin language (check sites of the Academy and University of Montenegro, with specific section for Serbian language, not Montenegrin). Simply because Montenegrin language is stil in the proces of being invented by 10 people around Academy of Duklja for their own private purposes.
3) Studens and pupils are not taught Montenegrin in schools. They did learn Serbian until last year, when it was switched to 'mother tongue' (?) marking one name for all the Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian, Muslim and Bosniak students. And this also can be changed after the elections, so it doesn't hold the water as a fact taken seriously.
For all this above, all your changes in this direction are nothing more but an obvious and pathetic attempt at provocation. I understand that as an Albanian you dislike Serbs by default, but as long as the standards above are not fulfilled, I will keep correcting the mess you are deliberatly making in this artice. PajaBG18:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
According to 2003 census, 22% people in Montenegro speaks Montenegrin. Including myself, and my name is Milos, I'm far from being an Albanian. So let the Montenegrin stay besides Serbian. Serbian is official language in Montenegro, I agree, and it should stand first, of course.Nije bitno...20:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
In English, it is Lake Scutari
Since this is the English language wikipedia, the name used by English speakers, Lake Scutari must be used. This is the name used in Rand McNally maps, Encyclopedia Brittanica, and MSN Encarta, etc. Imperial7816:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Lake Sctuari? Its called Lake Shkoder.
Lake Scutari is the Italian version. I was born in Bar (Tivar), Montenegro (Malizi) on Lake Shkoder in a village called Ljare (Serb-Croat: Livari). The area is called Shestan (Sestan in Serb-Croat)Which is an Albanian populated area. The fact remains that there is no such Lake Skadar. It is called Lake Shkoder not Scutari or what ever other variations you may have. It is named after the City of Shkoder im Albania. There is no such city named Skadar, this is just a translation from Albanian into Serbian of the city Shkoder. Plain and Simple.
Well, I guess I've fallen into yet another pit of POV problem in Wiki. I see the debate about "Lake Scutari" or "Lake Shkoder" and the denouncing of the name "Lake Skadar". However, THIS ARTICLE is about the cooperative efforts that Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic of Montenegro and Prime Minister Sali Berisha of Albania utilized in opening an international conference on 18 October 2005 on the theme "Lake Skadar international designations for territorial development". The website also includes a map with the lake, the Albanian side being labeled "Ligeni Shkodes" (or Lake Shkoder) and the Montenegrin side being labeled "Skadarsko jezero" (or Lake Skadar). Some of the pictures on the website refer to "Lake Skadar/Shkodra". This was written by the Swiss, the masters of neutrality. Therefore, I see the need for a shared name in this article, as one could easily argue the two names (and the fact that a majority of the lake does not reside on either side, rather, it is somewhat split in half). "Lake Scutari" is definitely an incorrect name altogether. I would recommend either splitting the article in two (for the two respective names of the lake on each side) or deciding on one or the other (Lake Shkoder or Lake Skadar, NOT Lake Scutari) and giving the proper reference to the other name. For example, if the article is named Lake Shkoder, the opening paragraph would state "Lake Shkoder (or Lake Skadar)" (vice versa if the article is named Lake Skadar). Rarelibra16:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Lake Scutari → Lake Skadar — If you look at this article it shows that an ongoing conference on international designations for territorial development (by the Prime Ministers of both Montenegro and Albania) shows the name of the lake as "Lake Skadar" (the other name is "Lake Shkoder" for the Albanian side). Lake Scutari is not a proper name for either the Montenegrin side or Albanian side - thus I propose a move to the name "Lake Skadar" with proper reference to include the alternate name of "Lake Shkoder" for the Albanian side. Rarelibra 16:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC) Rarelibra16:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Survey
Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
Support - Lake Scutari is an incorrect name according to either Montenegro or Albanian translation. The most popular naming convention is Lake Skadar, so I support the move and suggest inclusion of the proper reference to the "Lake Shkoder" name for Albania. Rarelibra16:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. As this is the English Misplaced Pages, the only thing that matters is what this lake is predominantly called in English. All major encyclopedias (Britannica, Encarta, Columbia) call the lake "Scutari", and a search in Google Books shows that "Scutari Lake" outnumbers "Skadar Lake" more than 6:1 (check Scutari vs. Skadar). I think it's obvious that the article should not be renamed, which is, of course, not to say that alternative names shouldn't be mentioned and used as redirects.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It is false logic to quote old maps. Trust me, coming from a cartographer - geography changes - especially when the Republic of Montenegro received independence this year. Rarelibra19:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In this context, 18 months don't make a map old :-) Your're right, geography changes, and sometimes very fast: when/if a majority of English-language reliable sources adopt any name other than "Scutari" for this lake, the English Misplaced Pages should reflect that change. - Regards, Evv09:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
So a map, say, before the collapse of the Soviet Union and one 18 months later are not different? The one 18 months prior, by all standards, is old. The difference, like I have stated, is when the "reliable sources" (or so you say) are stubborn to change things... for years. I could show you, for example, data from Microsoft MapPoint that has administrative-level data that hasn't changed in 20 years! So by your standards, when you tell Microsoft that, say, Burkina Faso defined 13 new provinces in 2004 (now 2 years ago) and, yet, they haven't changed their data - by your standars that is ok (since they are a "reliable source"). That doesn't cut it. Same with telling them that Bahrain was restructured into 5 governorates in 2002 (now 4 years ago) - nope. They use the old data. Unacceptable. This is the same situation. Lake Scutari - while no references have been shown to the origin of the name, is only used by, as stated below, "secondary" sources. The primary sources (and the ones we need to use for translation) call it Lake Skada (Montenegro) or Lake Shkoder (Albania). Rarelibra14:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
We're talking about different things. You're mentioning clear and absolute almost-matematical facts, mostly enforced by a state, while this move request is on a name, on language, something sometimes uncertain, fluid and even contradictory, and not controlled by any institution. That's why I qualified the "not old" comment with a "in this context" (i.e. this specific move request).
This lake is/was called Skadar in Serbo-Croatian, Shkodër in Albanian and Scutari in Italian (or, if you like, in "Venetian"). The latter name was adopted in the English language for very simple historical reasons: it was through Venice that England came in contact with this city and lake (and this whole region), first during the crusades and then with the 17th-century merchants and their wealthy passangers making their grand tour.
England discovered this region through Venetian eyes, and thus it was logical to adopt Venetian names for the whole Adriatic and even the Greek archipielago, instead of using the obscure languages of the local inhabitants. The countinuous usage of these Italian/Venetian names are not only deeply rooted in tradition, but also serve as constant remainders of this rich historical background.
The exact same thing happened in my native Spanish, which also adopted Italian/Venetian names for the region. This is not "cultural colonialism", but simply history and tradition. - Long-established traditional names do change too (e.g. Peking/Beijing), but it doesn't happen overnight... it usually takes years, decades.
Nowadays the general tendency is to drop such "traditional" names and adopt the local ones, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same would happen to this lake in the next years. When/if it happens Misplaced Pages should reflect that change (but not spearhead it). Although I must say that I personally don't like such changes, because all the historical connotation associated with the traditional names get lost when the "local" one is adopted (Kraków may be the real Polish name, but it doesn't convey the emotions, sentiments and sense of pertenence the traditional Cracow did. A little part of Cracow belongs to all of us, while Kraków is just another Polish city). - Best regards, Evv18:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I completely disagree with you. Just because the Venetian was used historically doesn't mean that you must use it as the standard today, especially when the aforementioned name changes occur. If the city is called Beijing, then it is called Beijing... you don't continue to call it "Peking" just because some history occurred with the latter name. Same with this lake - I guarantee you that Scutari is mostly a historical relic name that is being squeezed as it is held onto in opposition to using the 'local' name (with the same attitude that you have, I might add). Misplaced Pages needs to be on the forefront of modernity with its reference and usage, not antiquity as you state (and many other articles allude to doing). It shouldn't have to take "years, decades" to recognize a name change - that, in itself, is cultural apathy. Historical connotation is not lost, it is enhanced by using the local (and correct) name, especially if it translates correctly (as I have a hard time that "Scutari" is an English translation of Skadar - and fail to also recognize that it is "generally accepted" to use Venetian counterparts). Your mention of Kraków hits the heart with me - it is where my wife is from and where I visit quite regularly. It is known as Kraków by any and all who are worldly, scholarly, and culturally aware - only apathy would cause one to insist that it still be called "Cracow" (an English translation - or abomination, depending on how you look at it). Kraków is not "just another Polish city" - it is a cosmopolitan center of culture and history that went untouched by bombing for a good reason (as did Brussels). Again, using localized versions enhance culture and meaning - or do this - try being the typical "English speaking" tourist when you visit another country, butcher the pronunciations of their language, and only speak in English terms - see how far you get. Or... try the more culturally aware approach and pronounce things as the 'locals' do, learn part of their own language. It helps make the world go 'round. I guess I am very much alone in my native-English anglo-background views, being that I welcome the use of culture and correct names (and not insist upon using ancient, incorrect naming conventions). Rarelibra19:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Oppose per above. We're an (english) tertiary source, not a secondary one. If everyone calls it lake Scutari, so do we, however silly that may seem to some people. yandman18:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is, everyone does not call it Scutari. In fact, show me where the origin of calling it Scutari comes from, and how it came about to be assigned to call this lake? The lake is "Skadar" on one side, and "Shkoder" on the other. I feel this is a bias POV from a no-longer-dominant culture. Rarelibra19:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Negative. I wasn't clear enough either. Wiki should be a source of the most correct data, given the worldwide reach and resource. Not a 'popularity contest' as the current policy seems to want it to be. You could have the furthest clue about geography and actually learn what a place (like this) should be called, not what it has always been called (or so it seems in the "secondary" sources you wish to quote). Rarelibra14:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Support, naming of places shouldnt be a competitions of odds&even. Misplaced Pages gives us some directions and tools only for naming of places but please dont accept them as strict rules.Mentioned sources here(Britannica,Bartleby etc) all, is credible,yes, but please keep in mind that they represent a dominant culture.The same culture,today, insist to keep their values; eg. non metric system against the majority of the world. Anyhow, Google search gives us approximately same nr, then why we insist to keep a name against the other(s).Must06:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
If I understand you well, you're proposing to disregard common English usage, and "correct" what you percieve to be an "unfair" English usage. The problem is, such an action would infringe WP:NC (an official policy), and more specifically WP:UE. - Regards, Evv09:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Evv; Please consider my message a general view.Also take in consideration; "Google search gives us approximately same nr" part in my comment.Regards.Must10:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I did take it into consideration, but found different results, as the Google Print searches dones by both Ëzhiki & PMAnderson show. - Best regards, Evv21:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a non-biased vote from someone who's roots go into the region some 900 years (verifably...probably more though). Leave it as Scutari. I typed in Skadar and I got here just fine. I suggest that those of you that have an issue with this should start fighting your own battles, and leave those of us from the region laugh at how foreigners name our precious lake. ;)
2006-12-15T15:02:47 67.70.71.30
That is exactly the point. You should not be redirected to what the "foreigners" think is the name, if in fact it is incorrect. It should be Skadar... and if Scutari has historical reference (as it sounds)... then it is included in the article. Rarelibra21:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
My first thought was that the article name for this lake should reflect the article name for the town it is named after: Shkodër a.k.a. Skadar a.k.a. Scutari. The article name should be "Lake Shkodër" then. But I'm not sure how this lake is known in e.g. scientific publications. Anything with "Scutari" seems rather outdated to me. Markussep08:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Wiki is NOT a popularity contest. If you found 1,000 books that talked about Yugoslavia, yet only 2 books on Montenegro, 3 on Serbia, 2 on Bosnia, etc.... does that mean that you keep using the name Yugoslavia? NO. Wiki states against using this kind of deduction to assign naming for articles. In this case, however, as you stated below Yugoslavia DID use the name "Skadar" (which means it was dominant before the countries split). So, in essence, that name should be used (as in the article I found IN ENGLISH by the Swiss). Rarelibra18:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Other standard histories and country studies; some are recommended.
The LOC country study for Albania uses Shkodër for the city and Lake Scutari for the lake. (Search, or go to the section on Ancient Illyrians)
The country study for Yugoslavia uses Lake Skadar; it does not appear to mention the city, even in discussing 1913.
Major news sources:
Editor consensus as to what is used in English.
If it exists.
Use as English translation of a local term, as here.
Wiki states NOT to use "search engine results" unless for specific situations, and this is not one of those situations. This is an example of refusal to recognize the actual name of the lake - whether it be translated from the Montenegrin side or Albanian side. A 200-yr-old Venetian naming convention doesn't cut it. Rarelibra18:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Lake Skadar is still the REAL name of this lake. Just so readers understand - this article reflects a bias popular usage based on a few votes and not what is actually used by the region. Rarelibra14:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree in general (although "must" is a strong word :-), and have changed the link names accordingly: now each one reflects what it's used in each page. - Best regards, Evv15:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
On mentioning the city as Scutari
Rarelibra, until yesterday the lead used to read:
" is named after the city Shkodra (Skadar, Scutari, İşkodra) in northern Albania."
It made the relation between the names of the lake and city comprehensible.
But yesterday you edited it to read:
" is named after the city Shkodra (Skadar, Shkodër, İşkodra) in northern Albania."
Now there's no clear link between the two names.
Don't you find it odd mentioning that the lake is named Scutari after a city that is not named so ? Worse, after a city that is named Shkodra, Skadar, Shkodër and İşkodra, but not Scutari. I would expect any reader unfamiliar with the topic to be a bit confused about this :-)
I edited the lead to read:
" is named after the city Shkodra (Skadar, Shkodër, İşkodra) in northern Albania, also known as Scutari."
This way, it makes sense: the lake is named Scutari after a city named Scutari. Our previously confused reader will now understand the relation, without having to check the article on Shkodër to figure out how the lake got its name.
We can change the wording if you like, but I really think it's important to make the link between the names as clear as possible. - Best regards, Ev19:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The link is there - quite clearly. It is named after the city in Albania. The translation is actually incorrect, but there is insistence in keeping this name as "Scutari" rather than the real name of Skadar or Shkoder. The article name is enough, with the reference being to the proper city name (and the city is not called "Scutari"). The fact that this name exists for the article is confusing (and wrong) enough, so we should keep the inaccuracy out of such reference. Rarelibra20:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Rarelibra, don't push your personal opinion on what the article's name should be in this way, which only makes the article more confusing for our readers, and constitutes a clear case of disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. As long as the article is under its current name, it's important to mention that the city is also known as Scutari (the name used in the 1911 Britannica and still mentioned as the Italian name in the current version, since readers will probably find that version often enough).
Of course, you can continue arguing to change the name, but by discussing the issue in this talk page (and through proper move requests), not by editing the article itself in ways that contradict its current title. - Best regards, Ev21:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I edited the lead to read:
" is named after the city of Shkodra (Skadar, Shkodër, İşkodra) in northern Albania, also known by the Italian name Scutari."
I hope this wording satisfies everyone, at least while the article remains under the "Lake Scutari" name. - Best regards, Ev21:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't, so I have corrected it. Ev - don't push YOUR personal opinion on the article's name, especially one in which the name is INCORRECT. The confusion for the readers is searching on the name for Lake Skadar or Lake Shkodër and finding THIS' article instead. That is confusion enough. The edit I made did NOT "contradict" the current title - it was correct. The edit you attempted DID contradict. Thus, I have corrected you TWICE now (since the name is not ITALIAN, it is VENETIAN). YOU cannot just edit the article to contradict FACT - instead, next time you can bring it up on the talk page BEFORE such edit. I hope the correction I have made will suffice. Rarelibra21:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Is Rarelibra suggesting that Venetian is not a dialect of Italian?
Rarelibra, you edited the lead to read:
" is named after the city of Shkodra (Skadar, Shkodër, İşkodra) in northern Albania. The Venetian name Scutari is derived from the name Shkodër."
Second, the Italian name Scutari has been commonly used in English for a long time, and it remains a valid alternative name today, despite the fact that now the local names Shkodra, Shkodër & Skadar are being used too. And there's nothing contradictory in one language using names and words from other languages; in this case, in the English language using the Italian name Scutari.
Fourth, I'm not pushing my personal opinion on the article's name, but merely trying to explain our readers where the name currently used in the article comes from.
Fifth, you're right: I should have waited for agreement in this talk page before making that edit. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that, and I apologize for it. — Having said that, I should point out that while mentioning this mistake on my part you behaved in exactly the same manner, editing the article instead of waiting to reach agreement in this talk page.
Calling it Italian is incorrect, as it is a Venetian name. Therefore, my edit is more correct/accurate. It is misleading to say "also known by the Italian name" as you could state any and all other types of "known by" names. This is ENGLISH wiki, therefore, you don't need excessive reference to say "known by the Italian name". My sentence establishes it's etymology as a name reference. I don't agree with your version. I will take this to mediation, if need be. Rarelibra22:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
we do not need it, and it is excessive. Otherwise, you list each and every language and "known as". It does not help to tie the article, as the article is already named. The original city in Albania is its own proper name. Rarelibra23:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Coming from the notice on WP:AN/I. To me, it is obvious that we need to say that Scutari is an alternate name for the city in explaining the name of the lake. The Britannica is a sufficiently respected and widely used source. I think that makes, if not agreement, at least a clear majority, in favor of that little word. No opinion about whether we should refer to it as Italian, Venetian, or Hindustani, personally I think this article is on the lake, not the city, and in general too short to go into great detail about the name debate of the city, so my first instinct would be to just list it in the parens, but I don't really care about that part. --AnonEMouse18:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned in the initial post of this section, we can change the wording , but I really think it's important to make the link between the names as clear as possible.
The simpler the better. What do you all think about using the following sentence ?
" is named after the city of Shkodra, also known as Scutari, in northern Albania."
The fact that the city is "also known as Scutari" (i.e. that English-language reliable sources do often refer to the city as Scutari) is made pretty clear by its use in the 1911 Britannica's article on "Scutari" and by this Google Print search for "Scutari" showing books published in 2000-2007 only.
I completely object to such reference. The city in Albania is not "also" known as Scutari. It is translated into "Scutari" in Italian. Other languages call it by other names. Common English reference from old sources are also incorrect. I offered up several sources showing translations into English treating it as Lake Skadar (whereas the city is referred to as Shkoder) - but suddenly these are unacceptable? The English-language usage is not common as Scutari, period. It would be better to word this more as "Lake Scutari is named after the city of Shkodra in northern Albania. One of the translations of this name is "Scutari". This would be more appealing and accurate. Rarelibra14:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
And that would be all right as well. The minor semantic distinction is not worth the bloodshed. I believe the following conveys more meaning while being even shorter -- "Lake Scutari is named after the city of Shkodër in northern Albania, Scutari in Italian." -- but I will not war over it. --AnonEMouse14:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I was wrong about my previous proposal. This body of water is refered to in English-language publications as Lake Scutari, Lake Skadar, Lake Shkodra and Lake Shkodër, depending on context, the nationality of the writer, the diplomatics requirements of the moment, etc...
Listing all those names would still be necessary, either in the parenthesis, as it was two days ago, or along the lines of:
" is named after the city of Shkodra, in northern Albania, also known as Scutari, Skadar and Shkodër."
Taking AnonEMouse's example, it could also be:
" is named after the city of Shkodra, in northern Albania, Scutari in Italian, Skadar in Serbo-Croatian and Shkodër in Albanian."
Now we are getting somewhere! just add the other names in parentheses, I think - "Lake Scutari is named after the city of Shkodra in northern Albania (Scutari in Italian, Skadar in Serbo-Croatian, and Shkodër in Albanian). I like this proposal, Ev. :) Rarelibra14:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks much better with those parentheses you added :-) I can't believe we needed all these trouble to find a solution. It shows that I must be the worst Misplaced Pages editor ever :-) I really need a wiki-break. - Best regards, Ev14:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
