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Isn't the "rap" a little inappropriate and also a copyvio? —Keenan Pepper 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
This article needed a lot of work, and still needs more
Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC) START: The article, especially the early section on Zwicky's life was argumentative and lacking the tone of an encyclopedia article. The thrust seemed to be that no one in the scientific establishment understood Zwicky, largely due to the incompetence of other scientists.
I toned this down, and remove some of the repetive claims to this effect. One small example is changing 'prophet' (in reference to Zwicky) to 'visionary'.
This article needs more work, and might easily become the basis of a revision war so the editors should be alerted (I could not quickly find a tag for this.)
One possibly controversial addition by me: I quoted the Science Channel (with attribution) broadcast which claimed Zwicky was a "borderline psychopath" and difficult to work with.
It was this reference on "Most of Our Universe is Missing" which led me to curiosity about Zwicky and it would be appropriate to either document the original sources of this claim, or refute them with facts.
END Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The Science Channel just reran the above cited program, and it did indeed call him a "borderline psychotic". Anyone have any citations for this? 69.165.175.130 09:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at this sentence from the end of the "Life and Work" section.
...career.He was a fitness freak and used to amaze onlookers by doing onearmed push ups.
"Fitness Freak"? Is this something that belongs in a so called encyclopedia? Plus the person who added the line did not put in a double space after the end of the previous sentence. And "onearmed" is not a real word.
- I agree, it struck me as odd. I investigated two of the cited references and found no mention of this, so I've deleted it on the basis of not having been supported with a citation. If someone has a citation to offer, by all means restore it. Accounting4Taste 19:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is still a mess. There are indications that much has been written by a modern day advocates of the "tired light model", which has no serious standing in astronomy at all. I've already deleted a paragraph about an alleged Mössbauer effect on photons in deep space, which is as silly a notion as you can possibly imagine. It was proposed by an amateur critic of modern cosmology, Lyndon Ashmore. Nothing of the kind can be found in the scientific literature. There is still a paragraph called "Feynman's explanation, rehabilitation of Zwicky", which is also extremely silly. It is presented as if Feynman was supporting the tired light model, and Zwicky's ideas on tired light have regained credibility. This is ridiculous. The material cited to Feynman is makes no mention of Zwicky at all, but rather to the transmission of light in a medium like glass. This is also part of Lyndon Ashmore's confusions on Mössbauer effect, as he relates this to light passing through a thin plasma. The very first paragraph says that Zwicky is mainly known for tired light. That's false also. He's much better known for proposing dark matter; and probably better known for his observational work and for his proposal of gravitational lensing. Duae Quartunciae 10:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
DONE?
I hope our club could help a bit to do so. 84.158.112.69 11:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I am going to remove the section: Mössbauer effect prevents blurring
This has no place in the article. Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals. The section refers to Lyndon Ashmore, with whom I am very familiar. He is a high school teacher with an amateur interest in reinventing most of cosmology, and has no credibility anywhere. He speaks of a Mössbauer effect in deep space plasmas, which is physically ludicrous; it is part of his unique proposal for tired light which conflicts with very elementary physics on conservation of momentum and energy, and has nothing to do with Zwicky. I don't know who put this there, but it is nothing but a plug for Lyndon's ludicrously incorrect theory that fails elementary physics. I will remove this section after dinner; this gives a bit of time for anyone to comment. Duae Quartunciae 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. The deletion is done. Lyndon Ashmore showed up at the Bad Astronomy forum a couple of years ago, and had all the errors in his work explained to him at length by every other contributor. I was involved then, under the name "Sylas". You can see a sample post where I explain why Lyndon's work is unphysical, and unrelated to the Mössbauer effect. Check out msg #34 of thread and also read the rest of the thread if you really want to know more. Duae Quartunciae 09:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Tired Light
We have a bad problem with this article in relation to tired light. I have deleted two sections which were especially badly supported and were, in fact, founded on totally unphysical crank science that has no publication record. There's lots more still here that is badly flawed. Tired light is a long since refuted idea in physics. It has no credibility. Modern day tired light advocates do not use Zwicky's model in any case; they propose unphysical interactions with matter particles in deep space. Frankly, nearly everything in this article starting from the section heading "Tired Light" right through to the section headed "Hubble's Meaning" should be deleted, and replaced with a brief description of what Zwicky himself actually proposed and the fact that it was never generally accepted and is now long since falsified. Most of the material I think should be deleted is actually an attempt to argue an extreme tired light model quite different to that of Zwicky, and one which is universally dismissed as nonsense by working astronomers. However, I don't want to do more drastic deletions until someone else can speak up -- preferably someone who is also at little bit familiar with astronomy. Or, if I get a vote of confidence from a few folks, I can go ahead with the deletion and the replacement as suggested here. Duae Quartunciae 11:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is a concrete proposal for a replacement section, entitled Tired Light.
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually loose energy as they traveled through space. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass. (Ref here to Zwicky 1929)
No way has ever been discovered to make this work, and the effect is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. (Ref here to the Misplaced Pages article Tired Light.)
If no one objects and anyone approves, I'll make the replacement. Duae Quartunciae 11:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- No one has commented; I am going to take the advice of some of the guides and jump right in. Major edits will be taking place. Deletion of most of the tired light material for reasons given, some changes to formatting of the rest to clean it up and help my edits. Duae Quartunciae 01:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Finished all the edits, for now. I've worked it over pretty thoroughly, though I'm sure there's lots more improvement possible. Did a whole pile of edits, one at a time. Is that an ok way to work? Duae Quartunciae 15:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
New user "Cosmic Relief" has come to make some further changes. I am relieved to see that I'm not alone here! The change to the accelerating expansion paragraph is very good; I approve. Thank you. I disagree with your change to the Tired light section. Can you please talk about it? For instance, you add the word "was" inappropriately. I had said of redshift "is now" understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. You replaced "is now" with "was". That is incorrect. The redshift is far and away now understand to be due to cosmological expansion. The number of scientists disputing this is tiny. The correct term as an accurate and neutral account of current knowledge remains as I expressed it previously. It is now understood to be cosmological expansion. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have tightened up a bit the sentence on accelerating expansion. It is not a conflict between theory and observation, but an indicator that of a non-zero cosmological constant. It is a new development and a refinement of theory; but not a conflict with theory. Duae Quartunciae 15:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Another change by "Cosmic Relief" that I dispute in the tired light section. He adds a sentence as follows: "However, several workers (admittedly in the minority) have now taken this theory up again and proposed several possibilities." No citation is given. If you are referring to people like Lyndon Ashmore, who was cited in older versions of this page, then you are speaking of ideas that are trivially inconsistent with simple physics and invoke concepts that cannot apply in a plasma, and which have never been published in the scientific literature. Ashmore is a high school teacher with a self published book, a web page, and a paper riddled with very elementary errors published in a fringe journal with no credibility and no meaningful review process. This is not worthy of any mention at all. There are a few other mavericks like this; but as far as I know there is no credible process for tired light that has been proposed in recent years or which has had any impact whatsoever on the scientific community. I'm happy to talk about it, and don't doubt your sincerity. But I think this change is not warranted. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I need to tread carefully. "Cosmic Relief" is actually Lyndon Ashmore; spoke to me at the Bad Astronomy forum we both read. I am going to fix the changes to something I consider more reasonable, while taking some account of Cosmic relief's perspective. If we cannot reach an agreement then there are processes we can use to help arbitrate. Duae Quartunciae 13:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
ASHMORE gave User:Duae Quartunciae good stuff, where is it?
- 1. shows: your meaning is too common, but not correct, see e.g. ] and that a modified tired light declares Pioneer anomaly!.
- 2. Correctly! Feynman confessed not Zwicky - but his Physics:
- First step FEYNMAN: Light in glass as Quantum effects, never been GR-related.
- Second steo ASCHMORE: He compared CORRECTLY (see below) interstellar gas with glass.
- Two (very hard?) steps to understand what was meant?
- 3. Is insulting other meanings a WIKI-manner?
- Reminder: ZWICKY must be treated with old physics - or not?
- YOU (CITED): "I have deleted the section, based on CRANK PHYSICS and having nothing to do with Zwicky. Mössbauer effects occur in a rigid crystal; not a plasma."
- Are and were all (physicians) not supporting new meanings CRANK (PHYSICIANS)?
- 4. Was it fair to erase the CITED (!)part of Ashmore and THEN talking to him - only after it was erased? How could he see how he was cited? PLEASE BE FAIR...
- Lyndon Ashmore was directly cited and your talk with him was completely negative for your meaning, because ZWICKY means (his and our) old physics - of course no Standard...
- 5. YOU (CITED TALK): "Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals." - Please look in (better:) German WIKI to Mössbauer effect => to learn how it is valid for gas, solids and liquids
- 6. Is it fair to pervert what ASHMORE wrote (to you?)?:
- "Originally Posted by Sylas View Post ... Misplaced Pages has a biography on Fritz Zwicky that I have just noticed. It seems to have been largely written by someone who is using it as a vehicle to push a modern day tired light model. I have taken it upon myself to delete a paragraph on Lyndon Ashmore's Mössbauer effect nonsense; and also a paragraph in which Feynman's lectures about light transmission in glass is associated with a supposed "rehabilitation" of Zwicky -- meaning tired light.
- ASHMORE: Thanks for any help or comment -- Sylas
Thanks for drawing our attention to this article Sylas. I hadn't seen it before. However, there is nothing 'nonesensical' about Lyndonashmore's tired light model. Whilst we will not discuss it here, It remains THE most viable theory on the Hubble redshift."
- 7. ASHMORE ORIGINALLY CITED: “How Do Photons Interact With The Electrons In Intergalactic (IG) Space?
- To Answer this we must look at how light travels through a transparent medium such as glass. In a vacuum light travels at 3x108m/s. In a medium such as glass the light is slowed down. The reason for this is that the photons that make up the light are continually absorbed and re-emitted by the electrons in the atoms of the glass. The photon comes along, it is absorbed by the atom, the system of electrons is set into oscillation and then a new photon, identical to the first is emitted. However, this process is not instantaneous as there is a delay between the absorption of the old photon and the emission of the new one. The result of all the delays suffered by the photons as they pass through the glass is that the average speed of the photon is reduced. Photons travel at the speed of light in a vacuum ( 3x108m/s) between interactions with the atoms but their overall average speed is reduced because of the delays suffered whilst interacting with the atoms.”
Is reading links a too hard work???
PLEASE BE FAIR AND READ SOURCES AND LINKS wfc_k for 3 Astro-clubs (we have 1 Prof. and about 15 Dres and skilled physicians) 84.158.213.87 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- I require help here from the Wiki community. I am new to how we should handle this. I mean no personal offense to Lyndon Ashmore, but his material was incorrect and has no standing or recognition in the scientific community. His only publication is in an extreme fringe journal with no credible review process -- and a self published book. Neither has had any impact; they are neither used nor cited in the conventional scientific literature. The paper is riddled with very trivial errors in basic physics. There have been no experiments or observations to confirm this stuff, and it is described using words in ways that don't fit with the ways they are used in physics. For example, the appeal to Feynman is an appeal to the transmission of light through glass, which involves no redshift, and involves interactions with crystal lattice and electrons bound to atoms. Feynman's physics -- as well as that of anyone else -- does not relate this in any way to a process that could give tried light in space. NONE of it has anything to do with Zwicky. I think we need some form of arbitration process. Furthermore, I believe this stuff is so far out of the basic mainstream that I would request that please the edits that have been applied be removed UNTIL arbitration is permitted. No offense intended here; I and I respect your good intentions. Good intentions are not enough. Duae Quartunciae 21:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- The first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to each other. I will make a series of comments to different matters, under different headings.
Respect for Other Users
I have checked over my comments, and am satisfied that they are confined to accurate statements of facts with respect to substance of proposals and the standing of the various ideas in physics. I do respect your good intentions, and will avoid attacking anyone as individuals. I will not refrained from identifying risible physics as trivially erroneous. Please accept also my good intentions in this, and realize you will have to work within a context where I respect you as persons, but consider your physics to be full of very trivial and basic errors.Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to appeal to the support of individuals never identified by name. You mention a club and a professor; but nothing that could identify them. If they are relevant, please identify. If not, please refrain. You may of course invite them or anyone to speak anonymously on their own individual behalf.Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Light transmission in glass
The fundamental issue here is that this has no relevance to Zwicky's ideas. It has no place in this biography. We have your assertion only that it has any relevance to transmission of light in deep space. This is an example of bad physics. Transmission in light involves no redshift of a tired light form; and unless you see Feynman himself making that association, your association with Feynams work on light in a crystal lattice with interactions to a lattice of bound electrons is not something you should associate with free electrons in a plasma on no other basis than your own assertion. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Zwicky's own work
Incredibly, you guys have deleted outright the new material I provided that gave a link to Zwicky's own work in tired light in the references section! As a result of your deletion of all the work I provided, discussion of Zwicky's own papers are replaced with a lot of material developing proposals that Zwicky himself rejected on very basic physical grounds that remain valid today. The link you removed was On the Redshift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space, (Zwicky 1929). You now have that only in the list of papers, with no discussion of his work in the actual tired light section! On page 775, Zwicky considered the possibility of interactions with free electrons in interstallar space, and rejects this possibility because "any explanation based on a scattering processes like Compton effect or the Raman effect, etc, will be in a hopeless position..." THAT was Zwicky's view, and you have deleted the link and replaced with the very forms of process that Zwicky and indeed effectively the entire astronomical community consider to be physically impossible. Duae Quartunciae 22:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Addedum. The link is still in the new material, but no longer given through the references section. This link is accompanied by a very confused discussion, which in my opinion should be deleted completely and replaced with the brief paragraph I had given earlier. The only basis for the long discussion currently given at the start of the "Tired Light" section by a recent anonymous editor is a lead in to try and justify subsequent discussions of Lyndon's fringe theories in this biography, and an invalid association with various other mixed up physics explicitly in conflict with Zwicky's own rejection of electron interaction for reasons which remain valid today. There are other minor errors in the discussion; but correcting them is beside the point. I am awaiting help from a neutral third party, but I think the best way forward is to put back the short paragraph I had their previously, briefly describing Zwicky's own tired light ideas in informal terms, and then invite comment. Duae Quartunciae 02:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Mössbauer effect
The Mössbauer effect does not work in a plasma. It applies to gamma rays in solid crystal. The effects of the lattice are essential. If the German wiki says otherwise then it has a problem. One claim made by Lyndon Ashmore is that the Mössbauer effect involves straighline tranmissions. That's not true. Photons get scattered in the Mössbauer effect, and they are emitted at extreme angles, without recoil of the much heavier lattice. This section should be deleted. It is a series of basic errors in physics; not "new physics" at all; and it has no relevance to Zwicky -- who correctly recognized as do effectively the entire scientific community today that tired light cannot arise from interactions of photons and electrons. The paper (Zwicky 1929) that I cited explicit considers this possibility and dismisses it. The same reasoning remains valid today, and is accepted today.
- I have looked at the German wiki page you cited on the Mössbauer effect. I cannot read German, but I got a rough idea using a translation tool. The German page seems fine; and it confirms that the effect involves solid state quantum effects. This cannot transpose to a rarified interstellar plasma; and in any case the Mössbauer effect DOES involve scattering of the photons that collide with the lattice... not a straightline transmission with energy loss as required for tired light. The diagram shows the detector picking up photons scattered at right angles. This is why Zwicky himself explicitly and correctly rejected scattering processes. The difference in the Mössbauer effect is that scattering occurs with no recoil in the scatterer, and hence no redshift in the scattered photon. The first paragraph of the German wiki (translated) includes this: By the Moessbauer effect ... one understands the recoilless emission or absorption of a gamma quantum by an atomic nucleus. In addition the core must be in a crystal lattice, which can take over the recoil ... Duae Quartunciae 23:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Request for a third party
I would like to propose that we invite a third party to join this discussion; it is an informal request and it is a standard part of how Misplaced Pages deals with issues such as we are having here. It would be best if we can mutually agree that an a third party from Misplaced Pages has some potential to help. Are you agreeable? If there is no answer I'll go ahead and request someone come and have a look, but I would prefer that we can both agree this is a good step first. Duae Quartunciae 22:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. I have already long since read the relevant papers and discussed the physics at length with Lyndon in other forums. We really do need third party help for how to manage this, and so I have placed a neutral request for someone to come and have a look. Duae Quartunciae 01:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm...I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about. I wonder if you'll derive any benefit from a 3PO because yout subject matter is extremely specific and very narrowly defined, and the contents of your dispute are not altogether cogent. Perhaps there is a slight language barrier of sorts (your use of certain words throws me off, even though everything is obviously in English), and this is even though I am a tremendous fan of Richard Feynman. I'm leaving it on the 3PO page and hopefully you will modify your request and subsequently receive some useful sort of suggestion on dispute resolution. DRosenbach 03:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm hoping for some help not only with technical matters, but with dispute resolution and Misplaced Pages guidelines. For example... I also am a huge fan of Feynman. The reference given here to Feynman makes no reference to tired light or to Zwicky. The linkage that is being made from Feynman's comments on the transmission of light through glass, to putative energy loss for light in a thin plasma in rarified space is a violation of WP:NOR, as I understand it. The anonymous editor can give no verifiable citation that links tired light to Feynman's lectures, or to the Mossbauer effect. Duae Quartunciae 03:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I have flagged the tired light section as being subject to dispute. What I would like to do is replace the section as it stands, including all subsections, with the following two paragraphs:
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually lose energy as they traveled through space. This is called tired light. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass <ref>Zwicky, F. (1929). "On the Red Shift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space". PNAS. 15: 773–779. Full article (PDF)</ref>.
The cosmological redshift is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space; a feature of Big Bang cosmology. There are a handful of individuals who are still proposing variations of the tired light model, but it is no longer something considered seriously within the mainstream of modern astronomy.
I believe this is simple, neutrally stated, backed up with references for Zwicky's own work, and the second paragraph is backed up with well established and heavily discussed wikipedia articles. This is pretty much what I had given previously, before an anonymous editor just reverted everything right back to the mess I was trying to fix. All the additional stuff that has been included by the anonymous editor is original research because it makes associations between light transmission in crystal lattices with tired light in deep space; an association which is not made anywhere in reliable sources, and it is subject to accuracy dispute because of its basic errors in elementary physics and inconsistency with observation data (Wright, E., Errors in Tired Light Cosmology, UCLA Div. of Astronomy and Astrophysics). It seems to be an attempt to insert a modern fringe theory into a biography of an astronomer who never used them, and indeed who explicitly rejected the style of approach being pushed here now as a "hopeless position" (Zwicky 1929).
My understanding of wikipedia is the recent activity of the anonymous editor has been a Partial Revert, and should been discussed before being implemented. My proposed edit here is also a revert; and so I want to get some kind of agreement or authority before going ahead. I have linked extensively to Misplaced Pages editing guidelines, but I would also appreciate guidance here for how to manage this problem from an experienced Misplaced Pages editor. Duae Quartunciae 06:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- the whole tired light section after the first paragraph is original research - the best thing to do is to move it here to the talk page where its merits or lack can be dscussed - better still move it to the tired light talk page, as you have correctly pointed out it is too much detail for a biography independent of it being OR or not, kind regards sbandrews (t) 11:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Comments from Dr. Submillimeter
I did not read through all of the comments here, but I did briefly looked at this article. The "tired light" section has been given undue weight compared to the other material, especially since Zwicky is much better known now for his other contributions than for this specific theory. Moreover, most of this discussion is not about Zwicky's work in the field but instead about the theory in general, and it should be placed in the tired light article.
The paragraph proposed by Duae Quartunciae seems to be appropriate, although it could explain Zwicky's proposal in slightly more detail, and it could include a reference for the last paragraph. (I bet Peebles's book has something.) Once modified, this section should replace the current "Tired light" section in this article.
If the anonymous editor does not agree with this and does not discuss the issue here, then it may be appropriate to semi-protect the page (see WP:RFP). Dr. Submillimeter 11:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- A look at the tired light talk page shows that a similar discussion has taken place there in the past, and was resolved, with pretty much the total removal of the kind of stuff that has been placed here by the anonymous editor. At least, that is how I see it. I guess further discussion there would be in order; but I strongly advise anyone to review the history on that page first. I have removed from this biography all the subsections within tired light, as this seems pretty basic. I still have major concerns about the paragraphs that remain; and will put together a new proposal extending what I proposed above and taking into account also Dr Submillimeter's thoughts and the current text by the anonymous editor. I will put it up for consideration here before editing further. -- Duae Quartunciae 12:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I almost wonder if this anonymous editor is actually a sock puppet. Anyhow, the removal of this material from this page was appropriate. Dr. Submillimeter 13:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)