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Epeefleche taking Tecmo's indefinite ban a little too well--attempting to undo everything--comments, edits, etc

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This has dragged on so long and with so many subsections that it's almost impossible to determine the latest events. I'm wrapping it up to avoid further confusion. Epeefleche has stopped erasing all of pre-ban Tecmobowl from history and everyone agrees that further post-ban Tecmobowl edits will be undone per WP:BAN and WP:CSD#G5. If anything new happens, please start a new section. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Epeefleche (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

Epeefleche struck through all of Tecmo's comments on the Shoeless Joe Jackson talk page. His reasoning was that since Tecmo was now indefinitely banned (community ban), and his comments were no longer relevant. I undid the edit and left him a note about it, reminding him that talk pages were archives of previous conversations. He struck through comments going back two weeks and has made the talk page unreadable, at least for me.

He's done this on the talk pages of Dummy Hoy, Trading card Baseball card, Ichiro Suzuki, Frank Robinson, Mel Off and that's just from a quick look.

He's also going through and undoing a lot of Tecmo's old edits with edit summaries like "Restored ELs deleted by user now banned indefinitely for disruptive editing" . If you look at the link in question, it's obvious that Epeefleche is again wholesale reverting on the basis that Tecmo made the edit. Four of them are called fan sites by the article description--that doesn't even require going to the site to see if it belongs there or not. Just reading the section would tell you that there's something to the removal.

Tecmo was a very distruptive editor--that's why he was indefinitely banned. But a lot of his edits were worthwhile, and using the indefinite ban of a user you lost a content dispute to is not ok. Epeefleche and Tecmo got into a major content dispute over removing ELs while Tecmo was around, and since Epeefleche would never say what his issue was with Tecmo's edits, I eventually got involved as a go between, and after that and a User_talk:Epeefleche#Third_Opinion, Epeefleche stopped, for a short while anyone, reverting Tecmo without explaining why. This isn't a content dispute--it can't be since Epeefleche has refused steadfastly to state what his issue was with Tecmo's cleaning of ELs (besides for the fangraphs, we know that one).

I'm trying very hard to assume good faith, but Epeefleche's actions look like, and sound like he's just going through and undoing Tecmo's presence here:

Last time Epeefleche went on a Tecmo reverting spree, he reinserted dead links, vandalism, etc. It appears that much of the same is happening. Tecmo removed a florida marlins mlb EL from the Juan Pierre article "(as he is no longer with the team)". Epeefleche re-inserted that EL on his undoing Tecmo train. His edit summaries are either blank, or refer to Tecmo's ban or sockpuppetry, and none of those are helpful to editors of articles--the content, not the editor is what's supposed to be important.

This has been going on since the end of May and it's ridiculous that's it's going on even after Tecmo's been indefinitely banned. I'm requesting that Epeefleche be told to stop messing up talk pages (his endless notifications of Tecmo's indef ban should be more than adequate) and to undo the ones he's already done. Also, any edits related to Tecmo should provide an edit summary that refers to the content, not the editor. A lot of Epeefleche's edits are good, even one's related to this issue. But there's a clear editor related bias here, and if Epeefleche continues to go through Tecmo's old contributions and revert him, he should provide content related reasons for doing so (not personal reasons)--that means actually looking at the material and going through it. So if Epeefleche sees that Tecmo removed some good ELs, he doesn't put back in dead links, irrelevant links and sites removed for good reason (open wikis, commercial, fan sites, no unqiue content, etc).

I'd attempt to talk to Epeefleche about this myself and work things out, but I don't see a point, considering his recent accusations toward me.

Tecmo is banned, his talk page is protected--I don't know why I'm still seeing grievances about Tecmo this and Tecmo that everywhere. I said on the community sanction noticeboard that nothing would change with Tecmo's ban unless the other editors changed as well. Tecmo is gone--it's really preposterous that he's still the reason behind everything problematic. Miss Mondegreen talk  12:57, July 17 2007 (UTC)

Comments made by banned users after they are banned are reverted to enforce the ban, the relevance of a comment has nothing to do with it. Striking comments through, from before the banning at that, with a "no longer relevant" reason seem to serve a whole other purpose. --Van helsing 13:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Van helsing--Thanks. I agree with you that Wiki guidelines state that banned users comments after they are banned are revertable, without regard to may the merits of the edits themselves." I would add that the banned users' user pages (including, presumably, comment they may have made on them) may be replaced by a notice of the ban and links to any applicable discussion or decision-making pages. "The purpose of this notice is to announce the ban to editors encountering the banned user's edits." (emphasis added) As to your reaction to the "no longer relevant" language that Miss M attributed to me, that is not what I said -- what I did say, consistent with the rationale in WP:BAN, was as she subsequently accurately quoted, that the strikethroughs were made "to reflect that Tecmobowl is a former user who was banned indefinitely for disruptive editing." That accords with the rationale clearly stated by WP:BAN underlies the replacement (not, as here, the softer strikethrough) of comments by a banned user, on his talk page, before he was banned.--Epeefleche 23:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Apologies--that was Baseball bugs edit summary, not yours. However, considering that you visited every page first to announce his ban and only then to strike through his comments, the strike through was serious overkill, and affected page readability, which was frankly, my main concern. Miss Mondegreen talk  23:03, July 18 2007 (UTC)

Comments made by banned users after they are banned? Technically--is that possible? The only striking out of others' comments that I see regularly is during voting--sockpuppets, users with 2 edits--that sort of thing. Miss Mondegreen talk  14:39, July 17 2007 (UTC)

So on the same vein, striking through the comments of convicted Tecmo sockpuppets is also inappropriate? Obviously, there the commenting is inappropriate, but striking it through or deleting it really destroys talk pages as records. Miss Mondegreen talk  20:49, July 17 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if a user circumvents his ban through using multiple accounts, or logged out edits, and this isn't found out immediately. Also, sometimes the decision of a ban has been made but not been implemented as a block yet. >Radiant< 14:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Epeefleche has a history of hounding and harassing people he disagrees with; this appears to be another symptom of the same. Generally his response to a "please don't do that" is an lengthy answer that based on his reading of some particular policy page, he can do just that, either missing or ignoring the point, and continuing unrelentingly. I'm not sure how to tackle this, but the general point is that just because a user got banned at some point doesn't mean that he never made any worthwhile contributions (if he had, he would have been indefblocked much earlier). >Radiant< 14:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Epeefleche but I'm getting concerned about what I might find if I look hard enough. From my early dealings with Tecmobowl, he was an editor with good intentions but his combination of extreme boldness and a short fuse made an indefblock almost inevitable. But for the most part, I tended to agree with the actual edits he made and even asked his opinion on content-related matters on an occasion or two. I regret that I was not watching closely enough when the Tecmo pot finally boiled over but I may start looking more closely. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Can we get some Admin action on this already? It's been sitting here for hours unresolved. Roll back what everyone here says was an overreaction. ThuranX 18:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Talk page edit warring

There's now edit warring on the talk page of Shoeless Joe Jackson. Epeefleche made the initial edit, and Baseball Bugs has kept reverting everyone who undoes it. I've cited Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines (don't edit someone else's comments and talk pages are records) and User:Van helsing cited Misplaced Pages:Banning policy (it is inappropriate to bait banned users or take advantage of their ban to mock them), and reverts are still being done with edit summaries like "There is nothing in the policy to support your statements."

Additional, Epeefleche added the following comment to the top of the page, supposedly to deal with my concernt that when someone looks at a comment that's been stuck, they assume that they editor struck their own comment:

**NOTE Regarding Strikeouts Below: All strikeouts below of Tecmobowl's comments have been made by others to reflect that Tecmobowl is a former user who was banned indefinitely for disruptive editing.--Epeefleche 14:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Not only does this seem to be real piling on, but it also seems really inappropriate that the talk page of an article is prefaced with information about a user. This also has brought the entire talk page to a halt, which doesn't help the article--which has been protected for over a month for an inability to discuss anything related to Tecmo in any way shape or form without losing all sensibilities. Two editors currently are at three reverts (including me, btw), and this is just a recipe for disaster. I'd even take temporary full talk page protection right now--that would be better than attempting to use the talk page as a talk page and a battleground. Miss Mondegreen talk  20:38, July 17 2007 (UTC)

• He's banned, but that isn't carte blanche to revert everything he's ever done here; that is just disruptive and vindictive. If he socks and returns his additions can future additions can be reverted per WP:BAN and WP:DENY; but that doesn't apply to previous content. I left a message at Talk:Shoeless Joe Jackson with fair warning that future disruption may lead to blocks.--Isotope23 20:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Uninvolved Admin's Comments Should I presume that it is my unfamiliarity with the history here that gives me the impression that User:Epeefleche is acting in a similar manner which got User:Tecmobowl banned - editing to an individual agenda, removing content on the basis of the source and not its notability, and not engaging in discussion? LessHeard vanU 21:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Uninvolved Editor's Comments Sure sounds like it to me. This sounds like a ridiculous vendetta, out to thoroughly discredit all of Tecmo's contributions to the project, which is NOT what a ban necessarily represents. As noted above, he had good contribs but a bad persona for the project. That doesn't invalidate all his efforts, and I would like to flat out clearly request that an admin roll back each and every incidence of strikeout as being in and of itself bad faith and incivilty of the gloating sort, and further disruptive to the project by making it unnecessarily hard to read the whole discussion in any section Tecmo contributed to. ThuranX 22:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Epeefleche now editing archives

Epeefleche is adding messages like this one to archives (ANI, Community Sanction, etc):

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive257 Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive257 Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive259 Misplaced Pages:Community sanction noticeboard/Archive10

This is getting seriously out of hand. Can we just declare that he has a COI in re Tecmo and say hands off? The number of edits needing to be undone is mounting--he moves fast. I hate to say this, but this is, in many regards (speed for one) Tecmo-like editing. Miss Mondegreen talk  21:02, July 17 2007 (UTC)

• Archives not ongoing discussions and not subject to editorializing. I've undone his edits there. I agree with your suggestion. >Radiant< 08:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Miss M Misstatements

Miss M makes certain misstatements above.

First, as background, Tecmo was banned indefinitely for disruptive editing (after a number of shorter bans, for repeated sockpuppetry, disruptive editing, and 3RR). At nearly every step of the way, Miss M defended Tecmo and attacked those who brought his disruptive editing to light, including the admins who banned him. Her behavior appears to be continuing here, even after Tecmo's indefinite ban.

Even after his indefinite ban, Tecmo has come back as a sockpupet, and Miss M had defended the sock. The sock has now been banned as well.

Tecmo left behind his comments on article discussion pages, and user talk pages. Many state his positions as to what Misplaced Pages policy allows, in an authoritative manner (akin to that struck by Miss M). Others are disruptive comments, in which he engages in conflict with other editors. Another editor, an admin I believe, first struck though some of such comments after his ban. I followed in kind, with a note on the history page that they are comments of an editor who was banned for disruptive editing.

Miss M quarrelled with that approach, fighting for the banned user's comments to remain without strikethroughs. Another user just joined her. They reverted my strikethroughs on a number of such pages. I am referring to Tecmo's comments from before the ban -- but it was of course Tecmo's disruptive comments and actions before the ban that led to Tecmo being banned. I have not reverted/deleted Tecmo's comments. Nor archived them. Simply left them there, with strikethroughs -- and the explanation, so later readers can (de)value his comments appropriately.

WP:Ban does not provide direct guidance. It does provide background to this issue, in that it addresses appropriate treatment of the banned user after the ban. It states that any of such edits "may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves.... Users are generally expected to refrain from reinstating any edits made by banned users."

It also provides support for the "replacement" of the banned user's comments, and those of others, on the banned user's user page. That page, of course, is a talk page that can be anticipated to include comments by the banned user before the ban was put into effect. The rule states: "Banned users' user pages may be replaced by a notice of the ban and links to any applicable discussion or decision-making pages. The purpose of this notice is to announce the ban to editors encountering the banned user's edits. Unlike editors who have been temporarily blocked, banned users are not permitted to edit their user and user talk pages." .

The rationale for the strikethroughs is consistent with the above Wiki guidelines -- the purpose being "to announce the ban to editors encountering the banned user's edits." It is even less draconian, in that strikethroughs allow the reader to still see the banned user's edits. This is a softer approach than the reversion and replacement approaches that the guidelines suggest in the above instances.

Miss M's misstatement that I "would never say what issue was with Tecmo's edits," is so great that it makes it difficult to assume good faith. One need only look at the extensive exhaustive discussion at , , the mediation page (where the mediator faulted Tecmo's behavior, citing it as the bar to effective mediation),, , and the Tecmo ban discussion to see this -- as well as Miss M's other misstatements. Happily, the admins did a good job, and each case the bans were applied. It is troubling, however, that Miss M is again blatantly mistating facts in discussions.

Furthermore, as is reflected on those pages, that was not a one on one dispute -- as Miss M suggests. 17 editors were involved in the mediation case. Tecmo was a vociferous party of one who refused to follow the consensus of the vast majority of the number of editors who were involved in those discussions. And Miss M, supporting him and attacking all others who pointed to his disruptive activities, was a proxy of one.

Tecmo deleted 100s of good ELs. Miss M defended him. Tecmo was banned for his disruptive behavior. Miss M does not seem inclined to put back the good ELs that Tecmo deleted.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong in referring to the editor, by the way, as being banned when undoing the edits. Tecmo was always bothered by it, and for some reason Miss M appears to be. As the policy suggests, who the editor is bears upon his edits.

And yes, when Miss M said that her problem with striking through the edits was that other editors might not know why they were stricken, and assume the editor himself struck them (despite my having explained this in the edit summary), I responded to her concern by putting a note on the page indicating why the strikethroughs appear. She now protests that.

I'm puzzled by why Miss M has defended Tecmo and his disruptive edits each step of the way. She has attacked the admins who blocked him. She has attacked those who have reported him. She has misstated the facts. And even now, after all this, she seeks to keep his disruptive statements and edits in place. I don't know why, but I could imagine other more helpful endeavors for her than to act as a proxy might for a user who has been banned indef for disruptive behavior.--Epeefleche 22:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

That is quite an impressive speech. I note that it relates more to the editor who brought attention to your recent edits, however, and not the question in hand. Now, could you please confirm that you have been striking through all content and discussion by an editor (now banned) and why? I searched (and it would have been easier, folks, if somebody had provided the editors full username - Tecmobowl - at some stage) and found the appropriate page, and could find no consensus or even suggestion that Tecmo's other edits and comments should be actioned. Obviously, those specific actions which led to the indef block required resolving, but everything ever contributed by that individual? If there was the relevant wording in the decision, or you could point me to the rule, policy or guideline, advocating or agreeing your action I would be grateful if you could provide the diff(s). LessHeard vanU 12:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Ack--sorry about that! You hear him called Tecmo so long and you sorta forget! Miss Mondegreen talk  23:03, July 18 2007 (UTC)

LessHeard -- I hear you. To address your first question, I have applied strikethroughs to most (though not all) of the talk page comments of User:Tecmobowl, a user banned indefinitely for disruptive editing. Another editor (an admin) has deleted his talk page, which contained other of the banned user's comments. I believe one or more editors have also struck through or deleted further banned user comments. The banned user has since come back as a sockpuppet, which has in turn been banned indefinitely as well. I have reverted or applied strikethroughs to some of the sockpuppet edits.

There are three types of banned user edits that are at issue here. Post-ban edits, pre-ban edits on the banned user's talk page, and pre-ban edits on other talk pages.

As to post-ban edits, WP:BAN is clear that, as I have done in some instances with the post-ban edits of his sock User:Long levi, those may be RVd. It states that any such edits "may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves.... Users are generally expected to refrain from reinstating any edits made by banned users." (emphasis added). Thus, to use your phraseology, yes -- everything ever contributed by that individual post-ban may be reverted.

As to pre-ban edits on the banned user's talk page, those were also deleted (by an admin), and this is clearly in accordance with WP:BAN. WP:Ban states that "Banned users' user pages may be replaced by a notice of the ban and links to any applicable discussion or decision-making pages. The purpose of this notice is to announce the ban to editors encountering the banned user's edits. (emphasis added) Thus, to use your phraseology again, yes -- everything ever contributed by that individual pre-ban on their talk page may be replaced.

This leaves the last category, pre-ban comments by the banned user on talk pages other than his talk page. I have not deleted any of such comments. I have, however, sought to apply the above policy -- the goal of announcing to editors encountering the banned user's edits -- to some of this class of edits. I have done this by choosing a softer approach than deletions -- that of cross-throughs, with explanatory language to alert the reader to the reason for the cross-through.

Many of these banned user's comments state his positions as to what Misplaced Pages policy allows, in an authoratative manner, and others are disruptive comments in which he engages in conflict with other editors. Some relate to live issues where people are seeking to determine whether there is a consensus, and he is at odds with the majority of the other editors. I have not reverted/deleted these comments. Nor archived them, as another editor suggested. Simply left them there, with strikethroughs and the explanation, so that the reader can (de)value the edits as the reader feels appropriate. It is a less draconian treatment than that of his edits in the first two categories. And there is no reason to think that his edits on article or other talk pages are more sacrosanct than those on his own talk page.

The rationale stated in the guideline is that there is an interest in alerting readers to the fact that comments by a banned editor. This applies that rationale to another class of his comments, albeit in a softer fashion.--Epeefleche 19:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed response, and the quotes from WP:BAN. My main concern is the first word in most of the quotes; "...may...", rather than "...must..." This indicates to me that there should be an agreed rationale if it is to be applied. Perhaps you could direct me to where this was agreed, or perhaps the admin that blanked the editors talkpage? LessHeard vanU 12:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I blanked Tecmobowl's talk page just to clear everyone's comments. It was being used for a flame war that got so bad that it had to be protected (by someone else). If anyone wants to restore that ugliness, feel free. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Can you confirm if you were a party to any discussion regarding the striking through of all or any of Tecmobowl's other space edits? I have no reason to believe that you were (or that you weren't), I am just trying to see if there was any consensus for Epeefleche's actions in doing so. Cheers. LessHeard vanU 22:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I just now saw this comment. I'm not sure where you're going with this but the only discussion I've had re: striking through talk page comments was in regards to this thread. And no, I did not condone that action and told Epeefleche as much in response to an e-mail query from him. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I was considering requesting/warning Epeefleche to cease his actions pending clarification. Since I see that s/he has voluntarily ceased doing so my thoughts are now moot. I see you are involved in this below also and am quite content to leave it in your capable hands. LessHeard vanU 21:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Using Tecmo's ban to pass through edits under the "users expected to refrain" clause? Using WP:BAN to revert edits almost a year old

The section you quoted, title, Enforcement by reverting edits, says the following:

Any edits made in defiance of a ban may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves. As the banned user is not authorized to make those edits, there is no need to discuss them prior to reversion. Users are generally expected to refrain from reinstating any edits made by banned users. Users that nonetheless reinstate such edits take responsibility for their content by so doing. It is not possible to revert newly created pages, as there is nothing to revert to. Such pages may be speedily deleted. Any user can put a {{db-ban}} to mark such a page.

Perhaps the policy page needs to clarify this, but since this is titled "enforcement by reverting bans" and has made it clear on the two preivous lines that it is talking about edits made after the ban, and makes clear immediately after that that it is talking about post-ban edits, it is seriously twisting the policy to say that you can go back and undo all of those users edits and expect other users to refrain from reinstating them. Such a reading would allow you to speedily delete an article the banned user had created a year ago that is now a featured article.

But I am most curious about this edit. Your edit summary says "Restored ELs deleted by user now banned indefinitely for disruptive editing", which given your editing pattern and Tecmo's, made it sound like you were referring to Tecmo. But I've searched through the edit history going back to September 2006, and can't find any presence of Tecmo, or any sockpuppets, including IP addresses. In that time frame I also cannot find another edit to the section EL--so what on earth is this edit summary referring to? Another banned user who edit EL sections? If so, who? Can you show the link that you were restoring from? Was it a simple mistake? Or were you using Tecmo's ban to pass through edit's of your own uncontested: "Users are generally expected to refrain from reinstating any edits made by banned users" Miss Mondegreen talk  23:03, July 18 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it appears that Tecmo did remove those links...of course that was back in September 2006 so I think reverting that edit is more than a little rediculous. IrishGuy 00:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah--I just searched 500 edits back--it went to mid-September 2006 and that satisfied me--thanks for the link. I'm sorry, this is ridiculous! I can't even believe that this has been managed. That edit is almost a year old--and Tecmo provided a talk page explanation at the time. Miss Mondegreen talk  01:27, July 19 2007 (UTC)

Continuing lack of action

Can we please see some movement on this? There doesn't seem to be anything we're waiting on from Epee, nor do his citations of policy seem to be changing anyone's mind. The longer we wait, the longer Epeefleche has to slash and burn all of Tecmobowl's contributions. I have yet to see any admin action towards a rollback of the slashouts, or towards a block. Is there something I'm not seeing in this complaint regarding this lack of action? Somethign that needs to happen? Or can we get a rollback and warning (or block) for Epee? Thank you. ThuranX 23:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not necessary to be an admin to revert someone elses edit. Anyone can do it. Since this is not vandalilsm, roll back will not be much quicker except in archive pages. Other than that, every edit needs to be checked first. I don't mind starting the process, I'll look over his edits now, but you could help out too. I don't think it's necessary to talk abouta block though. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 08:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm as far as I can tell they have all been reverted? Are there any omre to do? Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 08:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

He doesn't list that he's reverting Tecmo in every edit. The Juan Pierre one I mentioned in my initial report just has an edit summary of "(→External links)"--meaning no summary, just that he was editing that section. In addition to the dozens where he does mention Tecmo in some manner, he has hundreds in the past few days to EL sections and that's way harder to undo. Even one where he said he was undoing Tecmo's edit--the edit was from September 2006. He's gone way, way back through Tecmo's edits and since he doesn't always say when he's reverting Tecmo, someone basically needs to go through all of his edits and then check to see if he's undoing an edit of Tecmo's--and they need to look back at least a year because we know he got that far back. That's why this is so problematic. Miss Mondegreen talk  09:08, July 19 2007 (UTC)

In that case it will be very difficult for ininvolved admins to sort this mess out. Is he still doing it today? I'm willing to block if he refuses to stop, but if he has stopped then poeple who know which edits are problematic should simply revert him. Note however that removal of external links is no big deal, don't seat the small stuff. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 12:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Not the removal--the addition. Tecmo's big thing was cleaning EL sections--removing dead links, irrelevant stuff, stuff that should be used as references--he generally did a good job. The undoing--sometimes pretty bad--adding links for a team that a baseball player no longer plays for, adding back 17 links to the Dave Matthews article that had been removed almost a year ago! A lot of these edits were discussed on talk pages, etc. Miss Mondegreen talk  21:58, July 19 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to find if there was any consensus for Epeefleche's actions. I don't want to inflame the situation by acting with undue haste. At the moment I am of the opinion that Epeefleche is acting in much the same way as got Tecmobowl blocked (acting in accordance to own agenda and not communicating), but since I feel my actions should be preventative rather than punitive I want to be certain of my decision before acting upon it. If any other admin wants to act in the meantime they have my blessing. LessHeard vanU 22:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The Tecmo wrinkle

The IP address 75.203.180.191, which is a Verizon Wireless user, and which Tecmo's recent sockpuppet Long levi made a point of saying he is, is attempting to revert some of Epeefleche's actions against Tecmo/Levi's articles and comments. I am reverting his reversions. Baseball Bugs 09:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Uh, great that's all we need. First, stop doing that.

Second, Baseball Bugs--I'm pretty familiar with this case but I don't sit on baseball articles and Tecmo's tail the way you do. I missed the whole Long Levi deal and I haven't seen this happening. Provide diffs---otherwise it's just accusing someone and even if it's true it requires the person you're reporting to to just track the diffs down and that's a major pain.

This is quite frankly the worst thing that could have happened. What Epeefleche did was a major problem--partially because it was so hard to undo. Quite frankly Tecmo is the person best able to revert him. But he's now put us in an uncomfortable policy position in terms of WP:BAN. Both users are behaving badly here--and Tecmo should have come here and seen that this situation was being taken seriously--he could always have e-mailed one of us a list of reversions we'd missed. At the same time, I understand his hotheadness. He feels he's been treated unfairly in the past by administrators and so trusting administrators to take of the issue would have been hard for him--Epeefleche has gone on Tecmo reverting sprees before and administrators have let him.

Tecmo is banned--and he's going to stay banned unless he accepts the terms of coming back. And there are a lot of editors out there actively looking for his sockpuppets. He'll either get the point and change his behavior and editing pattern and come back with a new account and we won't be able to tell--not a problem really if he fixes the behavioral pattern that got him banned, or he'll accept the terms of the deal and come back that way, or he'll move on to other things in life.

But Epeefleche is currently an editor and still needs to be dealt with. And we shouldn't be reverting Tecmo's edits--if they are in fact his, just to revert back. Ban the IP if possible, but reverting is just making a WP:POINT. We don't decide on what content to keep by who is behaving worse. Let's set the pages back to before this current Epeefleche Tecmo mess and move on.

Also, we have got to bring this incident to WP:BAN. That language needs to be crystal--we want to prevent anyone from even dream of using the policy to support undoing all of an editors past edits. Because that is a surefire way to bring a banned editor back from the grave. Miss Mondegreen talk  21:43, July 19 2007 (UTC)

I recommend that you get familiar with the Long Levi situation, which is laid out on User talk:Long levi in detail. Then you'll see why the connection to the 75... IP address is obvious. Baseball Bugs 22:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Is an admin ever going to get involved in this? This ridiculous Big Brotherstyle revision of page history is absurd. It's PA level censorship and vandalism, and we've still yet to hear any resolution on the actions of those seeking to remove Tecmobowl's comments. We've heard it shouldn't be one and that part is reverted, but not that all the slashouts and deletions have been restored. Can an admin please look at this?ThuranX 23:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you do it please? Cheers! Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, and thus, I can't rollback all of Epeefleche's changes, as you well know. It's already been stated that given the lack of edit summaries, not all EF's changes can be easily identified. Further, none of this gets EF any sort of reprimand for his actions, nor does it establish any precendent. But you alerady know all this, and just don't care. You've made that clear. Thank you. ThuranX 23:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Admins don't have a magical power to revert changes. There is a rollback link that makes reverting large amounts of easy-to-spot vandalism a bit quicker but, as has been made clear, the changes needing rollback are not easy to spot. An admin is not required for reverting. As for the actual striking through, to my knowledge, Epeefleche stopped when asked. A block is not warranted unless he persists. I'm not sure what else you're looking for. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm just trying to figure out what Thuranx's interest is in this specific matter. Baseball Bugs 02:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to Wknight for the concise explanation. As to Baseball Bugs, I watch AN/I. I didnt' realize I had to be an involved party to comment, in fact, AN/I usually asks for uninvolved parties to assist. ThuranX 06:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, ThuranX, the reason I haven't gone around undoing the edits is twofold. I started on the Shoeless Joe talk page, but my edits didn't hold. Baseball bugs and Epeefleche believe that I have a COI where it comes to Tecmo, as you've seen, they accuse anyone who they see siding with Tecmo of having a particular interest (if my comments were read carefully, people would realize that I rarely sided with Tecmo--but generally sided with policy, or against bad behavior). Epeefleche already attacked me on another article talk page about my "support of Tecmo" and I think it's best for an uninvolved editor to do the actual undoing. Also, practically, I haven't had a lot of computer access in the past few days and don't except to in the next few either. However, about figuring out the more complicated ones, I have a thought (see below). Miss Mondegreen talk  09:04, July 21 2007 (UTC)

If Tecmo is watching

Unless someone is willing to go through all of Epeefleche's recent edits and see if Tecmo has ever edited the same article and if he has, compare their edits, there's no way to figure out the more complicated edits. The ones where the edit summary alludes to Tecmo should be easier, and the other ones, the best that can be done is to check and see if Tecmo edited the article recently. But the easiest and most complete thing to do, get Tecmo's help--OFF WIKI. Because what I said earlier, I stand by. The people equipped to deal with this are editors with endless amounts of time, editors obsessed with Tecmo and Tecmo himself. If Tecmo is watching, I invite him to e-mail me or another editor's he'd be comfortable contacting with a diff list her articles and talk pages where Epeefleche has undone either his edits or comments. Anyone who receives an e-mail from Tecmo with diffs can post them here and they can be taken care of. Miss Mondegreen talk  09:04, July 21 2007 (UTC)

I really don't think that is a good idea at all! Tecmo is a banned editor, and such editors should be encouraged to distance themselves from Misplaced Pages not be drawn back in. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 09:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a better idea? First, if Tecmo agreed to abide by certain conditions, the banning would be lifed. So we're not encouraging him to move on, just behave better. His storming off and unwillingness to work was not what anyone wanted (I hope), and working with the system has always been encouraged, including for Tecmo even once he was banned. Tecmo was banned because of his behavior--his punishment wasn't to have his wiki-existence wiped, and unless unless an editor is willing to go through all of Epeefleche's contributions and then look at each article extensively, then Epeefleche will have gotten away with this. Besides, what kind of message does it send to editors who were banned because of behavioral issues that if they learn from their mistakes and behave properly it's too late?

Look, we haven't blocked Epeefleche or done anything and he's moving full steam ahead, undoing Tecmo's contributions.

From today:

Undoing edits:

Deleting comments:

Granted, he's now moved on to sockpuppet Long Levi, but going through and systematically undoing things like colour changes is vindictive. And removing Tecmo's comments is problematic for future editors. This wasn't a sockpuppet caught in 30 minutes and dispatched summarily. This makes things a lot harder for users who later want to look at a user's contributions and the effect that they had--especially when a comment is removed from the middle of the conversation.

Look, if we don't accept help (if we even get it), then it's stupid. We're saying because of one user's previous problems we're not going to solve a current one. We do need to think about the message we're sending. And to a lot of people, we're an oddly closed society. The majority of our text comes from accounts with few edits, but we have a bizarre hierarchy and everyone here has a long memory. There's a reason that good editors resort to socks and personal attacks--it's because too often, the system doesn't work. And if we want to teach people tha they can trust the system and be patient and that socks and attacks aren't the way to go, then we have to be flexible and sensible. Refusing/not asking for the help of a banned user because the user is banned and instead leaving a situation unhandled, or partially unhandled--well, that doesn't make sense to me. Miss Mondegreen talk  10:57, July 21 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep in mind that, although Epeefleche should not be reverting Tecmobowl's edits with the reasoning that Tecmobowl is banned, he can revert Tecmobowl's edits as though Tecmobowl were still here. What I mean is that Epeefleche can restore external links that Tecmobowl had removed and the like. Wholesale reverting of Epeefleche's main article space edits may not be any more warranted than Epeefleche's reverting of Tecmobowl's. What I wanted reverted on a large scale was wherever Epeefleche struck through Tecmobowl's talk page comments. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

He's reverting edits made after the ban. This is entirely correct. Editors who have been banned do no get to edit the encylopedia. That is what being banned means. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 13:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's true too. Sorry, this thread is so endless, I don't even know what edits we're referring to. If Miss Modegreen is still referring to Epeefleche's reverting of Tecmobowl's edits (which I thought she was), then that's what I'm referring to. Anything done by Tecmobowl's socks after the ban time - including talk page comments - are supposed to be reverted on sight per WP:BAN and/or WP:CSD#G5. Now we can end this damn thread already? —Wknight94 (talk) 14:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If Mondegreen (or anyone else) is getting e-mails from Tecmo advising her how to fight his battles for him, that would be a bad thing. Meanwhile, I'm seeing at least two admins here saying it's just fine to delete Levi's comments freely, and to revert any edits of Tecmo or Levi that appear to be unreasonable, as with any edits from anyone. Mondegreen is often several days behind the curve on the status of things. About all I'm doing anymore in connection with Tecmo/Levi is watching for more sockpuppets, like the 75... account that came on a couple of days ago. Baseball Bugs 15:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as Theresa said, the Levi edits - talk page edits included - are all post-ban and should be reverted immediately as a violation of WP:BAN. Same for any other post-ban sock edits determined to be from Tecmobowl as long as Tecmobowl is banned. The pre-ban edits need more care and I think everyone disagrees with reverting/striking out pre-ban talk edits. For instance, the Ten Million (baseball player) article should not be touched simply because Tecmobowl initiated it - that was all done pre-ban. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Broken redirect fixes getting reverted

User:Ned Scott has been revering my edits of redirect fixes (leading to my own archive pages) on multiple pages just two minutes after my edits, these were the users first edits today as well (Two examples: ). I feel this has crossed into the WP:HA ("The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.") area.

In the past, the same user had revert warred over the deletion of the page user:Cool Cat by recreating it multiple times contradicting the deletion of multiple admins. He has later revert wared over the closure of the MfD of the same page again against multiple admins.

-- Cat 19:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You've been warned about this so many times, Cat. There's no way to assume good faith at this point, you clearly know that you're not supposed to update talk archives for your minor cosmetic changes. If you choose not to use redirects, and to make it harder for people, that's your own fault, since that was the option given to you. Those first two edits were the highest on my watchlist, and were to pages I already watch and was involved in. Some of your edits just today even changed other people's comments so they didn't call you Cool Cat. Dude, just stop it already. -- Ned Scott 19:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

By this user demonstrates that he fails to even follow WP:AGF. His post here comes just 6 minutes after mine. -- Cat 19:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

(emphases mine): "Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, assume that people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it." The fact that this is a repeated matter, that admins have reverted these same changes, tells us you know what you are doing, you know you were told not to do it, and you continue to do so. -- Ned Scott 19:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Then take the case to WP:DR! How many of the steps have you taken? If you are to the point of "no way to assume good faith", take it to Misplaced Pages:Community sanction noticeboard. I am sure others would agree if I am indeed trying to hurt the project.

I want a logical explanation on how I am hurting wikipedia by making sure links to my archive pages stay intact rather than being redlinks. How is them being redlinks a benefit to the project? Fixing broken links is explicitly allowed and recommended even though Misplaced Pages:Redirect is a mere guideline.

-- Cat 20:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Try to make your NOHARM arguments all day long. We gave you the option of making redirects, and you refused it for absurd reasons. You were the one who made those links into redlinks, it's your fault they are redlinks. You do not have a right to delete pages in order to force updates you were told not to do, and that's exactly what you are trying to do. -- Ned Scott 20:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not take orders from "you" -- Cat 07:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Hasn't Cool cat's insistence on modifying talk page archives been on this page – or one like it – once already? Can someone provide the links if that's the case?

To Cool cat: No one here disputes that you mean well in your contributions to Misplaced Pages. Your knowledge and technical abilities are highly valued. However, you have a long history of not demonstrating the best judgement or skills in handling disputes. Perhaps it would be best for you to stop making these changes until the matter is settled. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Never mind; I found the previous mess myself. (I can't guarantee this to be an exhaustive list, either.)

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive250#User:Cool Cat -> User:White Cat signature changes
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive251#Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Cool Cat
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive253#User:Centrx is reverting minor format fixes

• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Cool Cat

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive264#User:Centrx and my sigs
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive48#User:Ned Scott reported by User:White Cat (Result: No block)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive49#User:Ned Scott reported by User:White Cat (Result: Pages protected)

It occurs to me that if your 'fixes' have caused this much drama and inconvenience, you might be best to leave well enough alone. If you want to put the entire Cool cat name behind you and no longer be associated with its poor judgement (which you're in danger of continuing as White cat with these activities) then start over with a new name and a clean slate. This whole thing would be hilarious if it weren't wasting so many people's time. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The drama isn't my doing so you should ask that to the people making a drama over trivial edits (such as on here). Please do not blame me for someone elses edits. I particularly do not find any of this entertaining. I want to sort my userspace in peace just like everyone else. I did not change my username to put "Cool Cat name behind". There was no darn cunning intent. I simply wished to change my username. Please do not make up another reason as there is no other. I have made every effort to maintain my ties to my former account. That was the very intention of the entire signature edits. -- Cat 21:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The key question is would you block a user for fixing broken redirects. These are not signature edits. -- Cat 21:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You were not fixing broken redirects, you were using the lack of redirects as a way to edit past discussions for cosmetic reasons. -- Ned Scott 21:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Red links ARE broken redirects. What do you think a broken redirect is? -- Cat 07:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Also you state that my edits were "cosmetic" implying that they weren't disruptive. So why were you reverting them? -- Cat 08:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It takes two to tango, White/Cool cat. While you're not solely responsible for the drama, you're certainly a major contributor to it. Given that this issue has spawned at least four previous AN/I threads, it takes very little common sense to realize that continuing the same behaviour would bring you back into conflict with the other editors involved.

If you simply 'wished to change username', your wish has already been granted. There's no need to go modifying hundreds of archives that contain your old username, and the old links are only broken because you insisted on deleting the redirects at your old userpage. What on earth do you seek to accomplish through these changes that's worth all this trouble? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

"There is no need" is not an acceptable reason to mass revert anyones edits. This is something explicitly prohibited. Unless there is a very good reason (vandalism, copyvios, addition of unsourced material, trolling, personal attacks, legal threats, and etc), no edit should be ever reverted. Also these kinds of edits are frequently done: . When a discussion is moved, so should links leading to it. I cannot see a single rationale that would contradict this.

You know this series of discussions is a reminiscent of the kinds of remarks I had when I was complaining about the stalking behavior of Davenbelle and later Moby Dick. I also had lots of ANB/I's similar to the ones I am dealing with now. Surprisingly RickK was ALSO mentioned in them.

My ultimate military objective is to clear my former userspace and I think thats in line with wikipedias key policies. I should not need to explain why am I restructuring my userspace as to be blunt it is no ones business but mine. No one should be standing in my way when I make alterations to my userspace (and fixing links leading to them). Such a thing is unheard of. I will not stop editing my userspace.

-- Cat 07:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody disputes that you may (within reason) structure your own userspace however you like. But, that doesn't grant you the right to fiddle with hundreds or thousands of other archived discussions. The fact that the links are broken now is entirely your own fault, due to your insistence on not leaving redirects under your old username. You have yet to provide any explanation for why this much-simpler and much-less-disruptive solution is unacceptable to you. Unless and until you provide a convincing explanation for this, you will continue to see objections and resistance to your massive and unnecessary changes. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Not a single person has to explain why they are fixing broken redirects anywhere on wikipedia. This is something actually encouraged. If it isn't disruptive, then it is allowed. So what is being disputed?

The user claims that I am not allowed to {{db-self}} stuff in my userspace (above). I find that to be disturbing for many reasons. I do not believe I am alone with this. Same user also claims that I mean harm to the project with my edits (above). So at least someone is disputing that I "mean well" with my edits.

I have been stalked for a full two years and it had taken me two arbcom cases countless ANB/I posts, RFCs, RFCUs, and ultimately the Sanction Board to resolve that. I consider it very very unfair that people are disputing my ability to handle disputes. I have shown more patience than I should have needed to. I do not want to spend a similar two years with this case. Please do not dismiss my remarks without reviewing them.

-- Cat 20:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Now you're blatantly lying about things I've said and done. Policy and guidelines said we could take your first userpage deletion to MfD, I never said you were not allowed to delete your pages, only the ones where the community wished to contest the deletion. I have no pity for someone who uses the fact that they were stocked to gain sympathy or the upper hand in unrelated debates. You've even accused admins of stalking you when your sig changes were reverted. I never said you mean to harm the project, only that you have given more than enough reason to not assume good faith over this specific issue. You were told to stop, you didn't stop, that's all there is to it. -- Ned Scott 21:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Policy and guidelines didn't said nor will thay say that the deletion of my userspace requires an MfD. Forcing someones own userpsace to go though MfD-consensused delete then even challenge that via a DRV is as m:dicky as one can get.

You have repetitively recreated User:Cool Cat page (people have been blocked for this behavior) and have also repetitively removed the speedy deletion tag from the same page (admins can check the deletion log). You have revert wared the closure of 4 admins on the MfD (1st revert: 21:30, 28 May 2007, 2nd revert: 17:04, 29 May 2007, 3rd revert: 00:25, 29 May 2007, 4th revert: 00:31, 29 May 2007)(people have been blocked for this, several people lost admin privileges over this). You reverted over 4 times in both cases violating the 3rr rule twice in a row (you should have been blocked for 24+24=48 hours for this). Both 3rr cases were closed by the same admin who also commented on the deletion discussions, whom himself sated a possible COI. You have even added a weird notice (possible WP:POINT block) on the page after the DRV. Which had to be reverted twice since you reinstated it a second time. You later placed it to the talk page which was also reverted.

I have taken steps of WP:DR (ex: 3rd opinion), you have not.

-- Cat 21:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Once again, from WP:USER: ''If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page."

And the only reason I made the MfD and DRV a big deal was to avoid what you are doing now. Had a simple redirect been saved you wouldn't be able to waste our time like this. You are deleting redirects to justify changes that you were told not to do. You are even changing people's comments, not just your own. -- Ned Scott 00:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Its my userpage, dude! Whats your problem? There are nine and a half million other pages you could be working on. -- Cat 05:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, "others may request undeletion" doesn't mean you get to recreate the page multiple times. -- Cat 07:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool/White Cat managed to drive User:RickK away, and now he's working on doing the same thing with Ned Scott. Corvus cornix 22:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Um, everybody is responsible for themselves. I had minimal interaction with that person in question. -- Cat 05:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

White cat, its entirely ridiculous to attempt to fix all of those links for your signature. "White cat" is already in the history of the articles, not Cool cat, people aren't stupid, we can figure it out. And if you honestly wanted a clean slate and chance to start over, go ahead and do it, fix broken redirects in the article namespace, find something productive to do, and stop worrying about it. — Moe ε 22:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

And perhaps get a new name to boot and start with zero edits. User:Zscout370 03:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not want a clean start. I find any suggestion insulting, if people cant assume good faith, thats their problem. I simply want to clear my former userspace. There is nothing ridiculous about it. Fixing broken redirects are edits people do all the time. It is ridiculous that I have to put up with this. I find it shocking that no one is AGAIN commenting at all on Ned Scott's behaviour. -- Cat 05:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• This is how you fix a broken redirect. Less work for all involved, less drama on the admin board. >Radiant< 11:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • To avert further drama, I've fixed all relevant redirects I could find in the simplest way: by redirecting the old title to the new title. That is what redirects are for, and that is why editing archive pages is not necessary. HAND. >Radiant< 13:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I deleted two redirects at the user's request that were no longer used: User talk:Cool Cat/Archive 2005/08 and User talk:Cool Cat/Archive 2005/09, the only links there were from my talk page, white cat's talk page, and jlatondre's talk page, all discussing the page itself, not the target of the redirect. --ST47Talk·Desk 13:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

And more drama

Cool Cat has made it clear that he doesn't care that his edits are generating drama, and that he will continue with everything the way he has been doing it unless taken to ArbCom. That reaction is telling. I suggest that by knowingly and willingly generating needless drama, he is being disruptive, and that we simply block him if he persists in his disruption. >Radiant< 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'd strongly recommend avoiding ArbCom, at least until something's been proposed on community sanction, but this has been going on too long and there are too many people involved for a simple resolution. If he continues edit-warring over speedy tags, policy supports a block:

There are other instances where multiple reverts may not constitute a breach of this policy:

• reverts done by a user within his or her own user space,...

Any of these actions may still be controversial; thus, it is only in the clearest cases that they will be considered exceptions to the rule. When in doubt, do not revert; instead, engage in dispute resolution or ask for administrative assistance.

Further, disruption is certainly clear, the number of topics on this noticeboard alone and the time taken by arguments and by the constant revert warring could be better spent. I wouldn't do it unilaterally, but if White_Cat continues edit warring, even in his own or former userspace, I would support a block. The Arbitration Committee has ruled that users are not entitled to three reverts, and persistent reversion is strongly discouraged. --ST47Talk·Desk 15:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:3RR CLEARLY does not apply to a users own userspace. It is very m:dicky to harras someone in their own userspace.

I will not continue reverting simply because ST47 KINDLY asked on IRC, not because of policy. I find his remark here to be contradictory in nature with that. If I disrupt my userpsace, that shouldn't be anyones problem but mine.

There is someone (User:Ned Scott) committing the behaviour explained in WP:HA and no one is willing to even discuss it. Why are people so keen on looking the other way of his edits and constantly focus on attacking me, I wonder.

-- Cat 16:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to go to sanction board. Propose that I be prohibited to edit my userspace or fix redirects as people are recommended to. If that nonsense sticks any where there is no reason for me (or anyone) to continue with this project. -- Cat 16:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

When will we actually going to think of reviewing Ned Scott's contribution? -- Cat 17:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Hmm. I still don't see what exactly about White Cat's editing of his userspace and related other pages is so bad that it has prompted all this drama, revert warring and blocking threats. Could someone present the situation in a nutshell? --KFP (talk | contribs) 17:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

  My primary complaint is that he's editing archives and revert warring over them. There's been constant revert warring, and I feel that it's stemmed from a rather childish dispute - making demands without backing them up any further than 'I'm doing it because I want to'. I was talking to white_cat once and he mentioned that a guideline I was quoting was irrelevant because it wasn't policy, which is plain wrong: we don't write these guidelines because we're bored at work one day, and if you're going to violate them, you'd better have a reason, and all I've heard was completely circular: White_Cat wants to delete his old userpage because he wants to (a redirect), and then he wants to edit all of his past sigs because they link to a page that doesn't exist. Now, I've heard that he wants his entire userspace deleted - including talk pages, which CSD doesn't apply to - with no better reason than that people can't 'troll' him unless he has a userspace. If he wants to disassociate with 'Cool_Cat' completely, then it would have been easier for everyone to just make a new account, but if you're being trolled that badly, then it should have come to this noticeboard beforehand. --ST47Talk·Desk 17:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This is officially pointless

I don't know why White Cat wants to fix all the broken links to Cool Cat when he could make Cool Cat a redirect instead. However, I don't care. Unless someone wants to make it official policy that users who change their name must redirect their own user pages, then there is nothing wrong with White Cat editing archived discussions, as long as he does not make misleading content changes. I see no reason for Ned Scott to object, and indeed have never seen a credible objection by anyone (including admins) to White Cat's edits except, "that's not how we usually do things." Therefore I find White Cat's complaint that Ned Scott is stalking him to be credible, and I will have no problem blocking Ned Scott if this persists. Thatcher131 18:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: usually, I just lurk around these parts, but I have to say I agree with a lot (maybe not all) of what Thatcher writes above. I've seen this show up multiple times on this board, but I've have not yet grasped what the cat person is doing that is so offensive it has to be reverted. Archives should normally be left alone, but is changing the name (tedious though it may be. . .) making nonsnense of other editor's replies? Or obfuscating discussions? Do people think he's doing more than changing his name? It seems like a waste of time to me, but it's ?cat's time to waste and I still don't understand why other editors waste their time worrying about it. R. Baley 18:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, once an archive is created, it should remain untouched with the exception of removing libel or other harmful material. One of the problems here is that White Cat never presented a reason for editing all these archives. Changing old signatures doesn't come anywhere near a compelling reason. If White Cat doesn't wish to have a redirect to Cool Cat, that's fine. If no one objects to his signature changes, that's also fine. But continuing to push the issue after it's crystal clear that it's causing drama with many users in many venues is unacceptable. I don't doubt that Ned Scott is contributing to this particular problem, but it seems rather clear that White Cat has brought this stress upon himself. Chaz 19:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Then I expect you would be shocked at the number of archives that have been edited, blanked or even deleted to protect the privacy of a certain banned user whose right to vanish is supported by Jimbo. Assuming no one is actively trying to drive White Cat away, I see no reason not to allow him a lesser degree of latitude. Thatcher131 19:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually aware of such edits, but this isn't a similar situation. White Cat is still editing (his claim to have left notwithstanding) and he had made no mention of vanishing when he began editing archives weeks ago. Chaz 20:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher, Cool Cat's edits triggered my watch list, and you say I'm stalking him? The community says, don't make these changes, and these are on community talk pages. It doesn't have to be written in official policy, it just has to be a consensus. If I see him screwing around with archives needlessly, I will revert him. What he is doing is inappropriate, and just because I don't let him have his way because he's throwing a fit does not make me the one in the wrong. -- Ned Scott 19:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

There are people (plural) trying to drive White Cat away. They had been successful. -- Cat 19:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No one is trying to drive you away. This is just another example of Cat throwing a fit to try to get his way over a trivial matter. -- Ned Scott 19:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No trivial matter involves reverts. -- Cat 18:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Changing username, where it says Be aware: This change will not effect signatures you have already left on talk pages, or other places where you signed your username with ~~~~. Those pages will continue to display your signature (including the link to your old username) unless edited manually. Unless this policy is changed to actively prohibit editing old sigs, then I see no reason to sanction White Cat for doing so. Thatcher131 19:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see the past discussions on this matter. Reason is given, and he needs to stop. -- Ned Scott 20:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed the past discussions, and the reaction is decidedly mixed, with an awful lot of the opposition coming from just two users. Thatcher131 20:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It looks like White Cat is prepared to leave Misplaced Pages over this issue. (See User talk:White Cat and User talk:Tony Sidaway.) White Cat's insistence on changing his signatures in the archives is idiosyncratic at best, but I still think it would have been easy enough to leave him and his changes alone. Newyorkbrad 20:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

In Cat's own words. -- Ned Scott 20:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Has anyone listed this at WP:LAME yet? It was playing silly buggers with my watchlist a while ago (Star Trek AfDs mostly). Either side here could simply decide that whatever advantage he gains by "winning" is offset multiple times over by the amount of disruption it is causing. So, who's going to show some common sense? ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 19:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I see it has. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 19:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

While I still believe Cat is going about this in a very inefficient manner, for the love of all that is Wiki stop reverting him. I have not once on any of these ANI threads seen what I feel is a compelling reason to revert him. He's not just changing his signature, he's effectively usurping all of his old discussion posts, and wants the old username forgotton (the name only, he still leaves a link to his old block log on his userpage). Unusual? Yes. Inefficient? Yes. Are his actions directly harming Misplaced Pages? No. Just because one or another policy allows you to revert his sig changes, or undelete his userpage, doesn't mean that you should. I think it's time for everyone to step back, breath, and start ignoring the rules. Given links to Cool Cat's block log and contribs on White Cat's userpage, his sig changes aren't inhibiting anyone from finding out who posted them. He has given a reason for doing this, I have yet to see someone give a real reason to revert him, beyond vague "disruption" or causing drama or "he's been told not to." Again, just because you're allowed to revert him, doesn't mean you should. The reverters are as guilty in generating this drama as White Cat himself. Someguy1221 20:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Someguy1221 and Thatcher131. White Cat was doing something fairly pointless but not harmful and those reverting him, rather than ignoring his harmless edits, aren't helping. There is a little evidence that one of the editors, namely User:Ned Scott, showed an unhealthy interest in him on commons, where White Cat is an administrator.

The status of the case at present is that he has decided to leave Misplaced Pages, and in accordance with his wishes many of his user pages and talk archives have been deleted. All of the interactions on his user talk page are still present in his talk page history--going back to February, 2005. I hope he will still change his mind. If he does, I would like to see a change of behavior from those who have harassed him to the point of wanting to leave this project. In short, I want them all to leave him alone. --Tony Sidaway 21:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, what? Where have I showed an unhealthy interest in him on Commons? I stated a concern about him becoming an admin a long while back, considering he has failed every single request for adminship in the past with strong opposition. But even with that, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. A total of six edits were spent on the matter for two days. So don't bullshit about stuff like that. Seriously Tony, your judgement lately has been lacking.

No one has harassed Cat in this issue. His bizarre overreaction is his own. And isn't this like the 7th time he's left Misplaced Pages? One of the times he threw a fit, started vandalizing articles because no one would block him at his request, and he even MfD'ed WP:CIVIL. His reactions are abnormal, and unreasonable, and faulting those related to the reactions is judging them completely unfairly.

Plus, if any of you even think about blocking me for reverting his talk page archive edits, you might want to talk to User:Cyde and User:Centrx, who were and are reverting the same edits. Oh wise and powerful admins of AN/I, way to fucking go for over looking that one, and trying to pin it all on me. This is a minor issue, I've done nothing wrong, and Cat just overreacted, plain and simple. We've seen this happen way to often for you guys to ignore these facts now. -- Ned Scott 05:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify my position. This is not over simple trivial edits but because of the constant harassment I receive from a few users - and the community apathy towards the situation. I dealt with something like this during the entire 2 year User:Davenbelle/User:Moby Dick/User:Diyarbakir dispute. I WILL NOT experience that again, either help me or shoot me. After that was finally over, this started.

For the past 2+ months I have been dealing with nonsense after another for the changes I make within my userspace - something I feel no one sane should have problems with. I have tried multiple attempts to resolve the issue, they were all shot down.

• I first tried modifying my sigs, a courtesy given to our most notorious vandals (who write vandalism software). I was denied that as Ned Scott, Centrx reverted them. Centrx continued to revert them for months in a slow pace. Some people raised objections that the precondition for such signature alterations was me actually leaving. Even evidence pages of vandals are deleted when they decide to "leave" not by anybody but by Jimbo personally.
• I then gotten my former userpage deleted (not the talk page), Ned Scott repetitively recreated it contradicting multiple admins (check deletion log of User:Cool Cat page). He then forced the issue to an MfD. He has revert wared on the MfD contradicting at least 4 closures by 4 different admins (, , , ). He then taken the issue to DRV. He mass msged the DRV to random people, that was one random example I just noticed. And after that he placed that strange message to the MfD reinterpreting the closure of the DRV. He was reverted. Then he reverted and reinstated the weird msg once more. He was re-reverted and he made no further reverts. 5 minutes later he semi apologized . He later placed the same msg to the talk page of the MfD. Which was also reverted.
• After giving things time to cool down I tried getting unused (0-5 links per page max) redirects on my former userspace deleted. I was also denied that basic courtesy as Ned Scott reverted them just two minutes after I made them. It isn't really courtesy, more like edits no one would care about had they not been reverted senselessly. When he was asked why he is doing what he is doing he simply responded by removing the question with the edit summary "so tired of your bullshit, tony"

Off course none of the above can in any way be interpreted as disruption. It is perfectly acceptable and encouraged behaviour.

Whenever I brought up the conduct by Ned Scott or others concerning my trivial edits and their reverts on them, I have been told to "back down" on each of these cases either through public or private channels. Why should anyone need to back down from trivial edits, I wonder... In order to prevent needless discussion I have done so for the most part.

This isn't drama at all - at least thats not my intention. If I am getting mass reverted for making seemingly trivial edits (not just by one special user but by multiple users) and everyone is fine with that, the logical conclusion is that I am a threat to the project... If my value to the project is less than the most notorious vandal, I obviously am unwanted. Am I mistaken? Why do I not deserve the courtesy a notorious vandal receives?

-- Cat 11:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I just took the bother of going through the archives of those incidents that I didn't watch as they unravel, and I still haven't found a single good reason to revert White Cat's sig changes. (This is mainly for Ned Scott, who insists that good reasons were given) The reasons I have seen given are that "you can't do that" (says who?) "you're trying to hide your past" (this has been beaten to death, it's not true) "it will be hard for people to find out who originally made that comment" (no, it makes it easier) and "if someone reverts you, you should just leave it be" (the reverter shouldn't hit the undo button in the first place without a good reason). There's also the request to leave archives exactly as they were, but I think that's neither here nor there; sure, he's changing the archive, but he's making it easier for people to locate who made his comments. I am still waiting for someone to provide me an actual good reason to revert him, something better than what I've listed above, and something better than "he's been told not to do it." Someguy1221 01:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, enough of singling me out.

Reverting him is no disruption to the community, only his reaction is. And yeah, we're reverting him because he was told not to do it. If he wants to help people find stuff, then he needs to use redirects. For any other situation no one would care, but we're expected to yield to his demands because he throws a hissy fit. Sorry, no. It sets a bad example for others, and only encourages that behavior out of Cat in the future. Believe it or not, that's not acceptable behavior on Misplaced Pages. On top of that, this isn't even punishment or anything like that, this isn't a slap to his hand. We don't want these changes, and we don't want to encourage this kind of bizarre behavior. If he chooses to flip out over it, it's his fault, and trying to scold others because of his flipping out is laughable. No one is doing this to provoke him, and his accusation as such falls flat on the floor.

If Cat is bothering everyone with all these complaints, being paranoid and spazzing out, deal with him instead of pointing fingers at the users who are doing nothing wrong. It is disturbing to think that someone can drum up support from AN/I by throwing such fits. Face facts guys, this isn't TV, and sometimes both sides are not equally at fault. -- Ned Scott 04:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If this goes to arbitration I'll feed the lot of you to Bishzilla (talk · contribs). To argue that a user's "flipping out" at being reverted justifies the initial reversion places the cart before the horse. Ned, you say that "he was told not to do it." I see plenty of people here who have no problem with Cat updating his links. You call this a "bad example." Why? Archives get updated all the time. "'We' don't want these changes." Who is this 'we,' and does this viewpoint have consensus? Looking at the discussion above I have grave doubts. "Reverting him is no disruption to the community, only his reaction is." In other words, reverting is only disruptive when somebody actually defends their edit. That constitutes no defense. You're revert-warring, and I'd like to know why. Mackensen (talk) 13:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

White Cat is doing nothing wrong. Just making up policies because something annoys you is wrong. Fred Bauder 21:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No one is making up policies, and yeah, what Cat is doing is wrong. The disruption is that he is able to force his way by throwing a fit. Holding the community hostage by bitching about it till we will accept anything to shut him up. Here's some highlights from past discussions:

• If someone believes it was inappropriate to alter your sig on a certain page and reverts the change, it's probably best to leave that one as is. ChazBeckett 12:19, 27 May 2007

• The purpose is to keep the talk page discussions intact. It is no more purposeless than reverting someone who simply deletes a section on the talk page, or who changes their comments on a talk archive. It defeats the purpose of having a talk archive. —Centrx→talk • 19:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• The contents of archives ought not be changed. The alteration of archives defeats the purpose of archives; one practical example of problems with signature changes is if someone refers to the user's name in conversation, which then disappears if the username is changed thus altering the meaning of the discussion or rendering it unintelligible. Eliding personal information or potentially libellous statements is an appropriate exception, but making changes for no other reason than "I want to" is not. —Centrx→talk • 17:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Wait a second, I'm just realizing what's new about this time around. This Cat isn't changing "Cool Cat" sigs... he's changing "White Cat" sigs, which he designed to point to User:White Cat/sig, but has decided to delete that page and then update every page that once linked to it. It was bad enough that this was attempted with the User:Cool Cat sigs, but hey, it was a name change. Why is it happening again? Wasn't your new sig only days old? How many times are you going to change your mind about your sig and go back and update them again and again and again. That's not how sigs are supposed to work. -- Ned Scott 04:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• Cool Cat, stop making stupid edits and you won't have to worry about being reverted. You're not supposed to go through and modify all of your old talk page comments. It simply isn't done. They work well enough with the redirects. Your bot to do this was already denied because it's a Misplaced Pages policy that working redirects shouldn't be bypassed because it uses server resources at no benefit, and now you're still out there doing it anyway on your main account? Stop it and find something better to do. --Cyde Weys 15:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• I would suggest you notice the writing on the wall, and catch on that repeatedly changing your sig on every page you've ever posted on is an obnoxious waste of time and resources. --tjstrf talk 23:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• I believe it's been opposed for a variety of reasons by different people. Personally I dislike it because, unless you actually are leaving Misplaced Pages and vanishing, you don't get to put your previous ID down the memory hole like this. --tjstrf talk 04:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Just redirect all of the pointers to the old names into the new one and stop changing the sigs. This the second time I have seen this issue come up here since your name change and this is frankly getting me pissed off. Why are you making this hard on yourself White Cat; just make things easier so you can go back to editing. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Your accusations are baseless and unfounded. Reeeeally. Then mind explaining why you haven't done the simplest thing you could do -- why, in fact, you've taken active steps to PREVENT the simplest thing you can do from being done -- namely adding a redirect to User:Cool Cat? Instead, you are doing things in the most difficult way imaginable and bitching about it every step of the way. --Calton | Talk 20:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Cat doesn't just try to change his sigs, but he even changes other people's comments. He goes and changes other user's talk archives as well, even when they specifically ask him not to.

He doesn't just change things for his Cool Cat -> White Cat move, but was changing things from White Cat to White Cat on talk pages just days after signing, because he had made a minor update to his strange sig system.

And if you want to make statements like "there's no policy that says he can't" then you're just ignoring that there's no policy that says people can't revert him. The changes to archives go largely unnoticed, and the only reason there is any disruption is because he freaks out about it. He has no more right to change pages than anyone else does.

He is intentionally avoiding exceptable methods of preserving these pages (redirects). Several people don't want him making these changes, but only Cool Cat wants to make them this way. Everyone, except Cool Cat, says redirects would solve everybody's problem and be acceptable.

His name being Cool Cat is a part of the talk page archives.

While the change itself isn't a huge deal, the idea that his behavior is acceptable is what's wrong. -- Ned Scott 21:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Potential unblock of User:Digwuren to participate in an RfC

I have indicated to Digwuren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that I will unblock him to participate in an RfC regarding his conduct. The blocking administrator, User:FayssalF, is happy with this. Comments, anyone? --Deskana (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. More productive than a block.Proabivouac 21:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Support, GDonato (talk) 21:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Support. :Dc76\ 21:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Support. By all means. All of this seemed more like a content dispute, so that a block for "disruption" was quite weird. Dpotop 21:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course, unblock him to participate. The block wasn't for dispute over content, though. Neil ╦ 21:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Support. No decisions in abstentia. But the link to RfC? Where's that? E.J. 08:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment I would like to know are we talking here of a real already actual RfC/U or a planned one? If it is not yet filed then Id like to know who has requested this unblock, if it is filed, I would like to see a link to it...--Alexia Death 06:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

A planned one regarding the user. They have been unblocked to participate. If the user abuses this unblock, any admin should reblock immidiately with a longer block duration. Digwuren was warned that he was unblocked to participate in an RfC and/or mediation case ONLY, and that the original block still stands on principle. --Deskana (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Urgent issue: While Estonia-related discussions have been most uncivil, his latest outburst sets new records. This time I am really offended. I cannot comprehend how his technical unblock could give him a license for this level of uncivility on talk pages.

Yes, there has been a RfC on Digwuren proposed, but I do not know if one has been planned. Because of the complexity of this “dispute”, filing an RfC would take several days of work from several editors. Even if planning for an RfC started today, it is unlikely it could be filed before his block whould end. Besides, for one to be filed, there has to be proof of attempts to mediate the dispute. As far as I know, there are no open RfC or mediation cases where he would be party.

A RfC on Digwuren was proposed to me by User:Otto ter Haar on June 2, but I rejected the idea. One of my concerns was the RfC would not have the teeth needed to deal with this issue. I was assuming that an RfC would be unnecessary, and expecting that some "admin with balls" would take decisive action, along the lines of the case of his opponent, User:M.V.E.i.. It now seems that I was wrong and should have started working on the RfC.

For the last month I have avoided articles where Digwuren might be involved in, contributing and commenting only when I have been invited by him, or in the case of Estophobia, where an article under development in my user space had been requested as an alternative to the deleted article.

I was hoping he would go his own way, make new friends, or most likely, enemies, earn his incremental blocks, and eventually fade away.

---

Looking at his edit history I see that he has "started" a mediation case and an RfC. Luckily, I am not mentioned in the mediation case (although his blocking administrator is). If I was included, I would most likely consider it a form of harassment.

As for the RfC, I cannot imagine, how one could file an RfC on oneself! If one was planned, it should appear when those disagreeing with his behavior have created it. By "creating" his own RfC, he is forcing his opponent to follow his timetable, raising our wikistress -levels by a hundred points!

(I am not posting links to the two pages discussed, because as far as I am concerned, they do not exist.) -- Petri Krohn 00:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

IMHO Petri, you are the root cause of much of the conflict in Estonia related pages. Your edits to these pages have been mostly disruptive and your attitude is not conducive to mediation. You seem to be conducting a vendetta against Digwuren and a campaign to assassinate the character of Estonian editors as rabid nationalists. Particularly nasty was your checkuser action against a whole group of Estonian editors, knowing full well many were genuine editors. Digwuren has contributed to over 4000 articles in Misplaced Pages, making a great contribution to articles related to Estonia, my guess is that he has initiated this RfC on himself to defend his character.

Your attitude is exemplified by your claims that Estonian editors have a Holocaust denial agenda on Talk:The Holocaust while canvassing for votes for Talk:Estonian_war_crimes_trials#Requested_move , claim again Estonian editors are engaging in Holocaust denial in defence of an anonymous IP reported on the 3RR notice board , claim yet again of "yet another example of Estonian Holocaust denial" . You go on to claim that dismissing the Holocaust is common among Estonians , claim that the Estonia denies the right for a church to practice religion, with comparison to China. , claim Estonian irredentism . Smearing with allegations of dirty tactics, in this case "off site cooperation" to user Ghirlandajo . And finally this hateful rant, for which you where blocked for three days, where you accuse Estonian editors of having Nazi skeletons in their closets .

I think that Estonian editors are best qualified to write articles concerning Estonia, and it is also right that they are challenged occasionally to write balanced and sourced articles, as we should all be. At first I believed your spoiling role in Estonia related articles did serve a purpose in raising the quality of the articles, however, you have gone seriously beyond the bounds of civility on many occasions and question whether you serve any positive role here. Martintg 22:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Threats and Insults

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Content dispute not requiring any administrator intervention. Please work it out on the talk page. --Edokter (Talk) 22:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear administrator: At first I decided to keep quiet, but I changed my mind because I was insulted and threatened unnecesarily, not in good faith and not neutral at all. I'm reporting userXLR8TION for this reason. I've copied and pasted for you, from mine and XLR8TION's talk page, our discussion about supposed vandalizations, according to XLR8TION, made by me to Birmania Rios article. He's accused me, threatened, and insulted me without a fair reason or convincing statements. Please read and analyze. Thank you very much for your attention. Best regards: --Entre-Nos 22:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Birmania Rios

PLEASE STOP VANDALIZING THIS ARTICLE!!!! You have made MANY unconstructive edits and are replacing her nationality (Dominican) with Latin. She has always identified herself as Dominican American. Furthermore DO NOT ADD flag icons to an article. Further unconstructive edits will be reported to a site administrator. --XLR8TION 18:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not "VANDALIZING" this article, on the contrary, I'm correcting information. Where does it say in the article that she has always identified herself as Dominican American? Is that a statement? Maybe it should be added to the article, because, as I've read it, I noticed that she was born in Manhattan, New York and then at the age of 4 she moved to Puerto Rico, where she was raised. So, what does Dominican Republic has to do with her upbringing? That's not her NATIONALITY. The reason for the statement that she considers herself as a Dominican American is not clear. If it's true and stated, no problem with me, but it's not.

Why shouldn't I add flag icons to an article? Is it prohibited? Please explain, because if it is, there are a lot of international articles with flag icons. What's the meaning of unconstructive to you? I added to Miriam Colon that she is Puerto Rican; is that unconstructive? I changed the red links for the proper wiki markups, for cleaning purposes; I added her to the category of "People from New York"... isn't she?... and that's about it... is that unconstructive? I don't think so. Can you explain this throughly? I hope so, because if not, you're wrong. As I've noticed in the past, you love to threaten to report to the site administrator. That's ok if there's a reason for it but (?). So, I would love to know your answers to my questions. Best regards--Entre-Nos 19:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

She was born in New York and her parents are Dominican. Please take a look at the external links to see her nationality. Simply an ignorant person would delete that and replace that she is Latin American. That's not only ignorant but racist as well. Flag icons only go inside infoboxes. They do not go in the general article. If you have placed flags you must remove them according to the site's rules. Further unconstructive edits will be reported. Please stop vandalizing the article!--XLR8TION 21:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course I've read her external links, but that her parents are dominican doesn't mean that her NATIONALITY is dominican. She was born in New York and raised in Puerto Rico as a fact. You only answered the question about the Flag icons, and forgot the other ones. That means I was right in my statements. Besides that, you've insulted me calling me IGNORANT and RACIST. That's not fair. It's out of the question. Not NEUTRAL at all, as you're supposed to be. That, I would report, but my style is not your style. I would like to know what you mean by UNCONSTRUCTIVE EDITS, and furthermore, I've never vandalized that article, I repeat. Be kind and assertive, not threatening and offensive. It's an unconstructive approach. Best regards:--Entre-Nos 21:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Many hispanics/latin americans, identify themselves by the nationality of their parents. So the winner is the one who can source the claim. I do not think it is racist, however stating Latin American when the person is from New York City, raised in Puerto Rico, does not seem accurate in any sense. I am not an admin, just giving info. --SevenOfDiamonds 22:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Flag icons bug me no end, everywhere I see them. I wish we could get rid of them everywhere. Corvus cornix 23:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Entre Nous is a vandal who I have caught plagiarizing articles and creating sock puppets. He has been reprimanded many times by adminsitrators. He refuses to cooperate, vandalizes articles that have been properly cited, and refuses to stop vandalizing my page. Please refer to arhcive discussions on this user's rogue editing as you can clearly see who has been right as me and other users have corrected him in correcting sexist, racist, and unbased writings that he clearly doesn't want to admit (nor stop). Please do not hesitate to contact me via e-mail for further questions. I prefer e-mail than my discussion page, and will respond as soon as I can.--XLR8TION 18:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

XLR8TION: You know from your heart that what you're saying is not true. I have never been reprimanded by administrators. I've always cooperated and been neutral. I've also acted in good faith. I've never vandalized any page. At the beggining when I started editing, I was new to this place, and thanks to User:Tony the Marine, who's been my guide, I've improved a lot. But you never helped me, you just insult me constantly. I've always tried to cool you off, but you don't care. I don't know what are you talking about when you mention that I keep vandalizing your page. I've only been there once, and as you didn't like my edits, you deleted them. That's ok. But you've kept offending me over and over in my talk page. I've been fair to you, you haven't. You just love personal attacks. I don't. I've never offended or insulted you ever. It's so sad you put your energy accusing me and making fun of my writings and about my compatriots calling them names. Please, leave me alone. I wont bother you, I never did. Cool off. Take a vacation. Take the stress out of you. Live and let live. Best regards:--Entre-Nos 19:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC) "

Entre-Nous, you ar enothing but a liar. If any adminsitrator takes a look at my talk page or the talk page for the List of Puerto Ricans they will obviously see a vandal who has made sexist changes to names (Millie Corretjer de la Hoya???_, racist edits (changing Birmania Rios' nationality to Latin American when she has always recognized herself as Dominican American), multiple sock puppets and plagiarizing articles from the Institute for Puerto Rican Culture in entirety! Tony the Marine has sided with me and told you not to plagiarize and also to write original articles. Your sock puppet accounts (Aquipr, etc..) only validates a rogue editor who cares not to listen to communal advice but makes changes that will get reverted everytime. You are nothing but a nuisance and I am surprised that you haven't been banned yet.

Once again:

(1) DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON MY TALK PAGE!

(2) Flag icons only go inside infoboxes, not in the body of a paragraph. Read the Pillars of Style for more info!

(3) Do not change information that has been cited and do not make assumptive edits like changing Ms. Corretjer's name to that of her husband when she has never done that legally and is always known by her maiden name.

(4) Do not change nationalities or any other racial or cultural info that has been comfirmed. Doing so is considered vandalism.

And stop with your childish immature attempts to report me for your unprofessional behaviour and unconstructive edits. It only makes you sink to new lows. --XLR8TION 20:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

XLR8TION: When are you going to stop insulting me? I'm not a liar or a vandal as you state. If an administrator takes a look at your talk page, he would notice how many copyright violations you have committed, and the reasons why you've been blocked in the near past. I've never changed the name of Millie Corretjer or even thought about it. I changed the statement that Birmania Rios is supposedly Dominican, because she was born in New York City and raised in Puerto Rico as a fact. I only edited that once, and you changed it, that's about it. Ok... cool, but you say I keep changing it over and over and that's not true. I only saw that page once, I repeat. The plagiarizing of the articles you mention is an old story and Tony the Marine taught me how to rearrange them by the rules in good faith, and that's already done, that case is clear. And let me correct you again, because I've told you this many times, but you don't seem to understand that I've never copied an article from the "Institute of Puerto Rican Culture". To the "multiple sock puppets" you constantly refer to, I really don't understand what you're talking about. I only have one and that's Entre-Nos. I don't know who's Aquipr or the rest, as you mention. You say that I'm a rogue editor, and that's an insult. I'm very, very far from being deceitful and unreliable. I've always listened to communal advice, even yours, but you keep attacking me for unknown reasons, to my cognition. You offend me calling me a nuisance. I've never been a bothersome annoying person, as you state. I just defend myself from your constant tactless remarks. You keep prohibiting me from posting anything in your talk page. I wouldn't even bother, if you wouldn't have ever aggravated me. In relation to your enumerated personal "rules", these are my answers:

(1) DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON MY TALK PAGE!

• You keep prohibiting me over and over from posting anything in your talk page. I wouldn't even bother, if you wouldn't have ever aggravated me.

(2) Flag icons only go inside infoboxes, not in the body of a paragraph. Read the Pillars of Style for more info!

• That's been taken care of. Tony the Marine explained everything to me.

(3) Do not change information that has been cited and do not make assumptive edits like changing Ms. Corretjer's name to that of her husband when she has never done that legally and is always known by her maiden name.

• I've never done that, and I wouldn't ever do it. It's none of my business.

(4) Do not change nationalities or any other racial or cultural info that has been comfirmed. Doing so is considered vandalism.

• I'm confused due to the fact that someone who was born in New York City, raised in Puerto Rico, and went back and stayed living in New York, would consider Dominican her nationality. Where is that confirmation stated? Furthermore, I've only edited that page once and you already reverted the edits, and that's it. I'm not a racist, never been one.

And stop with your childish immature attempts to report me for your unprofessional behaviour and unconstructive edits. It only makes you sink to new lows.

You're the one that has supposedly reported me always. I'm only defending myself from your offensive moves. I had to report you because of your constant and unnecessary threats and insults. Cool off. Be kind. Best regards:--Entre-Nos 18:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No personal attacks and civility please. Additionally, you do not own your talk page. Also, from the bottom of the edit page: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 23:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• User:Entre-Nos recently filed an WP:AIV report on User:XLR8TION, which I removed as forum shopping and left this message/warning on their talkpage. If any other party wants to look this over, and comment, please do. I shall also copy this to the relevant section at WP:AN. LessHeard vanU 00:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

My bad, wasn't at WP:AN. LessHeard vanU 09:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yet more edit warring over team colors for individual players

This has been going on for months, and is the subject of multiple ANI reports. I would like to request an administartor start giving out blocks simply for edit warring. It's gone across multiple pages, and involves possibly some sockpuppetry. Worst of all, it's an extremely lame edit war. In all, it's involved User:Mghabmw (currently at about 8RR on Reggie Jackson), User:208.168.252.236, a likely sock of Mghabmw, User:Yankees10 (who has sockpuppeted in the past, and another likely sock of Mghabmw), User:192.234.99.1, User:Pascack. Please see these monstrocities: , . I beg an admin to do something: lock these darned pages up, and most of all, to block mghabmw for massive edit warring (I'm a noninvolved party, but I know someone who violates 10RR several times in a few days when I see it). The Evil Spartan 22:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Is someone going to do something about this? I've never seen such a monstrosity on the Reggie Jackson page. We have so many spa's on there trying to get their version before the page is locked. I recommend a hearty block for all the users, and an indef for all the spa's. I count 21 reversions by a single user in the past 24 hours; the other spa's, I almost can't blame them becuase they know mgh is just trying to get his version of the page protected. The Evil Spartan 22:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

10 minutes!! Give people a chance. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 22:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I protected the page, and blocked everyone, mainly indef as obvious socks. Thanks Jaranda 22:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The obvious solution is to take away the colors feature from the retired MLB template. It's used for active players as a decoration for what their current team is. But there is unlikely to be consensus on what colors to use for multi-team retired players. That one User:Pascack and his supposed sockpuppet(s) are anti-Yankees and pro-Mets, hence they keep changing the colors to Mets when they can, such as they tried with Casey Stengel, which was absurd. Baseball Bugs 23:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. We don't need colours, In fact they make the page look gaudy. Nothing wrong with black text on a plan background. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn Black text on a white background would solve what has to be one of the silliest edit wars I have ever seen. old windy bear 23:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

If somebody is in the Hall of Fame, they retire with a certain uniform, the infobox should be the colors of the team they retired as. Otherwise, meh. Corvus cornix 23:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Corvus. The Baseball HOF has players wear a teams hat when inducted. So for players in the HOF, that team's color should be used. These disputes about team colors generally only occur on few of the pages, so while the colors are disputed black and white could be used, then changed once the situation is resolved. New England 23:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Beware, New England, I had that idea months ago and was labelled as an edit warring and uncivil user despite not having done any edit warring, and only getting the slightest bit uncivil once everyone had attacked me unnecessarily. Honestly, I doubt the sticklers will allow this, as they wouldn't even let me try to achieve a consensus beyond that which they themselves had already declared. -- KirinX 00:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the edit war specifically over Reggie and Casey is exactly the problem. Both men have NY Yankees caps, and edit warriors want the infoboxes wearing A's and Mets, on totally subjective reasons. This stupid issue is a mine field of POV-pushing. Baseball Bugs 01:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless the color has clear criteria that can be sourced, then it should not be there at all. Otherwise it becomes a NPOV disaster. I suggest no color until a consensus can be formed on citable criteria. Until(1 == 2) 19:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The HoF was part of my argument and seemed to be with those who agreed Yankees. I just got stupid about it. Mghabmw 18:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Liftarn and the Persecution of Germanic Pagans issue

I would like to bring to you attention the case of Liftarn and the Persecution of Germanic Pagans. Liftarn has now reverted this article the 12th time, and this has been going on for months.

Already in January WeniWidiWiki had pointed out that we "also face facts that the ancient pre-Christian pagans and the modern adherents of Germanic Heathenry are not the same people and cannot identify themselves as such," in Talk:Persecution of Germanic Pagans; Neopagan sources are obviously not reliable on this.

Consequently, in May 20 I created a disambiguation page: ; This was reverted by Liftarn on May 20 , on May 24 , on May 29 , on July 8 , on July 9 , on July 13 , on July 16 , on July 17 , and several more time since then. (I would list at all the details, but I don't have that much time at the moment). Also I tried to work out in Talk:Historical persecution by Christians that history textbooks do not use the term Religious persecution when speaking about the relation between Christians and Pagans during the early Middle Ages. As long as these reverts continue, I see no use in working out the historical context in Historical persecution by Christians. Please take the appropriate actions or advise me on what I should do . -Zara1709 08:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The controversy has continued on Talk:Persecution of Germanic Pagans. I think, I can let this rest for the moment, but if there are any more further reverts, I will describe the problem here (or on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR) in detail. -Zara1709 09:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

this guy is a riot. Now performing at Talk:Persecution of Asatru. An RFC has been posted. dab (𒁳) 09:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow. It's the Redirect Rollercoaster Thrill Ride of Doom. Now I'm too dizzy to comment. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yesterdays controversy ended with the creation of an article Religious discrimination against Neopagans; now Liftarn, apparently without any discussion, has created an article Religious discrimination against Asatruers. I was about to explain Misplaced Pages:Notability to him again, but then I wondered if it would make any sense. If all Christian denominations have only one article 'persecution of', then the Neopagans can't possibly need three. Religious discrimination against Neopagans and Religious discrimination against Wiccans should really be enough, we don't need any more. If you want a list of all the articles that were created yesterday because of this, just ask.-Zara1709 13:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not merge the persecution articles ot Christians, Jews, Mormons and Muslims into a single "Persecution of Abrahamists" then? I don't see the problem with having different articles for different religions. And I don't see why you (mostly refering to Dbachmann here) insisted on moving around the article every few minutes (without any prior discussion). // Liftarn

If you read my previous comment again, you will see that I did not say that articles 'persecution of' for different religions should be merged. I only wrote that we don't need an article for every denomination (besides the problem of Misplaced Pages:Notability for the Asatru-case anyway). You are not suggesting that the various neopagan groups are as divergent from each other as "Christians, Jews, Mormons and Muslims", are you? -Zara1709 13:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm suggesting they are more different since Mormonism is a branch of Christianity and both Islam and Christianity are branches from Judaism. // Liftarn

Liftarn is clearly a problem user impermeable to rational debate. Since not a single user has voiced support for his approach, I suppose WP:3RR can take care of this. Please come to Talk:Religious discrimination against Neopagans if you want to comment on the affair. dab (𒁳) 14:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to reason with Dbachmann, but all I got for the effort was insults. // Liftarn

(De-Dent)I just slogged through most of that talk page stuff over there. One, I agree that Abuse of pagans and Abuse of NeoPagans ought to be in two different articles. One can talk about burning at the stake, raping and pillaging, the other can talk about humiliation on talk shows for living in basements and lengthy bureaucratic paperwork fights. The differences between persecution in 700 AD, like imprisonment, death, and physical torture, and 2007 AD, like... forms in triplicate, derisive mocking of common centralized thoelogies and so on. Nothing's been shown to support that the two time periods are using identical faiths. infact, given the low incidence of police reports of marauders viking into town, I doubt it. (And yes, Vikiing was a perjorative forh te activity, not a self-identifier of the group).Two, why are any of these articles listed under the clearly perjorative word 'pagan'? No, i'm not being facetious. Pagan, Heathen, Idolater, all refer to NON-Christians. Jews, Muslims, Odinists, Wodenists, FSM-ninjas and IPU-hornbearers are all 'pagan' or 'heathen'. Isn't listing people all under that term a bit like redirecting African_American_contemporary_issues#Institutional_racism_and_discrimination to Lynching N*******? It's just reinforcing the bigotry, isn't it? Could we fit this under "Persecutions of smaller religions" or "persecutions of new faiths", with a couple paragraphs for the smaller stuff and summaries and links to the bigger stuff? ThuranX 14:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The difference between persecution and discrimination and the difference between Paganism and Neopaganism were just two points that were discussed during this, another that I'd like to emphasize is that it seems that it are only fringe theories that actually attest a persecution of pagans during the early middle ages. But I would not have taken it to this noticeboard if the issue could have been resolved through discussion. To me, the problem seems that Liftarn can't accept that he was wrong about the persecution of Germanic pagans case in the first place and, since he has not provided any further arguments, does not try to solve this through discussion. He just keeps reverting, although apparently he has stayed within the three revert rule so far. -Zara1709 14:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody would be happer than I if we could have solved this trough rational discussions (instead of verbal abuse and trashy editing like some seem to prefer). So far there have been very little rational discussion altough Zara1709 have at least made some minimal effort. Also that Dbachmann moved the article(s) to difrerent names and split and joined them in a seemingly random way also made debate difficult. // Liftarn

All I want is the Religious discrimination against Asatruers article. There is enough material for it. What the other unrealted religions have their pages on is nothing I really care about. // Liftarn

no there isn't enough material. If there was "enough material", I wouldn't object. You make a lot of noise on Talk: namespace, all the time failing completely to cite a single notable source alleging "discrimination of Asatruers" (let it pass that "Asatruers" is not even a word). It's as simple as WP:ATT. Cherry-picking Supreme Court cases about religious rights in general doesn't count. If there was a law, or even a motion, to single out "Asatru" as undeserving of religious freedom in any country at all, I would be all for having this article. As it happens, there isn't. dab (𒁳) 14:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I strongly suspect you would object anyway. That is what you do. It simply doesn't matter how many sources I find, you are determined to delete, crop, remove and bastardise to get what you want. If the court cases invove Asatruers who have been denied their religious freedom then they are utterly relevant. // Liftarn

so you admit you have no case, but idly allege that I would object to you even if you did have one? How does that compute? dab (𒁳) 15:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have a case and you still object. Now you seem to be on a personal vendetta and disrupts Misplaced Pages for it. // Liftarn

Deterioration

Liftarn now stoops to wikistalking, trying to smear me at this stale RFC and taking it upon himself to random policing of articles I happen to have touched recently. Not a promising development. dab (𒁳) 15:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was trying to file a complaint about you constant verbal abuse, but found that it already was ongoing. It's interesting to note that your abusive editing practices also includes trying to sweep complaints under the rug. // Liftarn

Liftarn, if it wasn't for the edit history and the discussions of Persecution of Germanic Pagans and Historical persecution by Christians, this would not be such much of an issue. I had deemed that matter so important that I did not only take the effort of creating a correct disambiguation page for Persecution of Germanic Pagans, I also spend 50+ hours researching on the Christianization of Europe during the middle ages. (Which is completely ok, since I could take this as (rather unusual) exam theme in religious sciences, which I study.) However, since you were apparently not able to apply Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and other policies two times, Liftarn, we have to insist that you apply them in the third time. -Zara1709 15:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Summary style. You seem to be under the impression that sources were missing. Please check again and you should find them (unless they have been deleted). // Liftarn

if you knew how to behave, this would be a run-of-the-mill editing dispute, to be resolved amicably in constructive debate. You failed to achieve consensus, and instead of accepting that, you took it on a personal level, with RfCs on me (as opposed to the topic), wikistalking, and generally crying wolf. This is childish. WP:ENC applies to you as to everyone. Find one respected user supporting your approach and we may have a debate. dab (𒁳) 15:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

And again you come with personal remarks. If you would have been interested in a constructive debate we wouldn't have this problem. // Liftarn

I reported this at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Liftarn reported by User:Zara1709 (Result:). -Zara1709 08:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Harry Potter full-protection

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is going to be one of the most viewed and edited wikipedia pages within the next 24-48 hours but has been fully-protected by an admin who has as of yet not responded to a request to revert back to semi-protection. I have posted a request on WP:RFP but it has not yet been reviewed, and do to the time sensitive nature of this article, I thought I ought to post it here as well. With the coverage this article will receive, I assumed it should be treated as a Main Page FA, thereby avoiding full protection to the maximum extent. Joshdboz 11:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

This is being handled on the article talk page, Talk:Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, on the user talk page of the protecting admin, User talk:Alkivar, and on Requests for page protection. This is not an incident requiring extraordinary intervention by an administrator. --Tony Sidaway 11:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually this is not being handled on User talk:Alkivar as Alkivar has not made an edit since fully protecting the article, so another admin would be needed to revert back to semi-protection. Joshdboz 12:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason why this full protection has stood on a page like this for 6 hours because of "spoiler vandalism" without a single other admin from chiming in? Joshdboz 12:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotected. Should not have been fully protected. Neil ╦ 12:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You beat me to it by one second. Literally.-Wafulz 12:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate it. Joshdboz 13:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

(last) 12:37:58 Wafulz m

Changed protection level for "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows": Seems to have been a brief spike. Let's try semi-protection. (expires 06:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

(last) 12:37:57 Neil m

Changed protection level for "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows": one second ... (expires 06:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

David Strathairn website operator

A user claiming to represent the official website of the actor David Strathairn is claiming copyright violations on the BLP noticeboard. Whatever the merits of his claims, I think an administrator versed in such things should go to the noticeboard and address his contentions.--Mantanmoreland 16:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• I tried to elaborate on his user talk page. We'll see what he says - WilyD 16:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The issue seems to have been resolved by removal of the material from the website for other reasons.--Mantanmoreland 14:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sparkzilla topic ban

I've offered Sparkzilla (talk · contribs · count · api · block log) a topic ban if he wants to continue editing. Previous discussion here. To recap: SZ is the publisher of Metropolis, a free city guide for English speakers in Toyko. He's been causing COI and BLP problems for months editing articles about his business interests, and in particular editing BLPs about people his city guide has been critical of or conducted campaigns against. This has included repeatedly posting disputed material on article or user talk pages; insisting that Metropolis be used as a source for contentious BLP edits; canvassing editors on their talk pages to restore material for him that others have removed; making personal attacks on users who oppose his edits; and wikilawyering when asked to stop. Guy has blocked him indefinitely until we decide how to proceed with him.

The topic ban consists of (1) no editing about living persons who have been the subject of articles in Metropolis (or any other publication or website Sparkzilla controls), and no posting about these people on talk pages; (2) no editing of articles about his business interests, though he may make suggestions on the talk pages of those articles, within reason.

I've offered to unblock him if he agrees to the above. SlimVirgin 16:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Entirely reasonable. See how he gets on with that, and if he causes no trouble we can consider whether it can be relaxed in any respect. Guy (Help!) 16:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed. SlimVirgin 17:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

This plan is probably the best way to move forward at this point. Thatcher131 18:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, though I'd lean toward allowing him some latitude on the talk page with regard to living persons, so long as he doesn't make defamatory comments. Do you think that would open the gateway to abuse? If so, perhaps it's unwise. MastCell 20:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Everybody would be happy including "people his city guide has been critical of or conducted campaigns against". I don't see a good reason why we would not include the talk page. BLP applies to talk pages as well. As Guy said above, it would be a matter of good conduct before he'd be allowed to participate. -- FayssalF - 20:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

OK; Guy and SlimVirgin have more experience in dealing with him, so if you think there's reason to believe he'll continue to violate BLP on the talk page, then perhaps the original remedy proposed by SlimVirgin is most appropriate. He could gain back talk-page privileges, potentially, through good behavior. MastCell 20:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be quite a generous offer. Jayjg 21:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I too think that a wide topic ban is an entirely reasonable offer. I'm the anonymous "heated issue sockpuppet" that got banned for a short while by JzG for my "edit warring" with Sparkzilla (mainly on Metropolis and Crisscross), shortly before I outed him on the COI board. I think it's good to note that although Sparkzilla now claims to have perfectly honorable motives, and pretends he never really denied who he was, he did. He would ferociously delete all talk page comments asking if he were in any way related to Devlin/Metropolis, and accuse the person asking for being "disruptive." Even after I had presented extensive evidence he were Devlin, he still tried to deny it by denigrating my efforts to out him, and kept the act up until MangoJuice told him to quit it. He also used an IP to edit Metropolis/CrissCross. But that's all in the COI I originally posted, please do have a look at it if you haven't already. It was my opinion at the time, and still is, that the case was closed prematurely and that Sparkzilla was bound to create more problems. Heatedissuepuppet 17:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sparkzilla CoI. Here you can clearly see one particular aspect of Sparkzilla's on-wiki behaviour; how he's attempting to promote his own business: . Although Japan Today is 99% Kyodo news-produced blurbs, he puts his own site above Kyodo news, arguing he's "ordered news links by site size." Although his defamation campaign against that Baker fellow is bad enough on its own, it's important to note how Sparkzilla is all about self-promotion as well. He can pretend he's "one of the good guys" on Misplaced Pages all he wants, but that won't change the sad reality. Heatedissuepuppet 17:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

After a previous exposure to the Nick Baker issues via the COI noticeboard, and a look at User_talk:Sparkzilla, I would support a topic ban as Slim Virgin has described above. If the topic ban proves unworkable due to endless protests by the subject, I'd consider requests for further action. All this is in spite of my suspicion that some of the Sparkzilla allegations about Nick Baker might be true. We have to work with reliable sources when BLP is involved; any other route is hopeless. I'm particularly alarmed that Sparkzilla uses up so much Talk space with protests that seem tone-deaf to BLP. When someone appears clueless about important WP policy issues, it's fair to include that fact when WP sanctions are being considered. EdJohnston 18:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Block review: User:KaragouniS

I've blocked KaragouniS (talk · contribs) for 12 hours for harassment and personal attacks. He was asked not to post on User Talk:Argyriou () after coming there to hector Argyriou about being insufficiently Greek. After being asked to leave, KaragouniS responded with this, after which I warned him to desist and told him he'd be blocked if he continued. He continued to post to Argyriou's talk page (, ). I view this as ongoing harassment and an attempt to provoke further dispute, and I've blocked him for 12 hours. I submit the block here for comment, as KaragouniS is a logged-in user and has not been blocked before. MastCell 16:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please note that KaragouniS has been warned recently, and several times in the past for incivility, and for edit warring a while ago. Argyriou (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It does seem that he has been warned several times before. As I don't read Greek I will AGF and conclude the content was not appropriate. Seems a reasonable tarrif for a "first offense" block for personal attacks. LessHeard vanU 22:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Suffice to say that the contents of his posts were not particularly polite! -- ChrisO 15:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandal: User:Peterdjones

This user, who knows very little about the subject, is very busy editing beer articles, particularly Belgian-related articles. I have pointed out his errors, however he insists I am wrong (I am Dutch and very familiar with beer here and in Belgium, plus I have a small library of books on the subject). He posts misinformation and refuses to add sources when asked. He is edit-warring and is also fact-tag warring. On this diff page you can see he has added a fact tag -- the second one in that article and a ridiculous fact tag as the issue hardly needs references. On the history pages for Belgian beer , Trappist beer and Tripel , you can see the sort of revert warring he does. You will also note that, with one exception, he never posts source for any of his misinformation. If you look at his talk page, you will see that I am far from the only editor who has problems with him. Mikebe 17:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: After looking over some of the recent activity by User:Peterdjones, particularly in the articles mentioned by User:Mikebe, they appear to me to be good-faith edits that are clearly not the sort of thing that would be vandalism as described in WP:VANDAL. I've also observed several occasions in the past when Mikebe has described other people's edits as "vandalism" or "nonsense" (not to mention "crap") which were in fact good-faith edits that he didn't happen to agree with, and he has been at least as guilty of edit-warring as most of the other contributors he's accused of it. --Mwalimu59 20:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Mwalimu59. This looks like a legitimate content dispute (on both sides), exacerbated by a failure to assume good faith (on both sides), but not vandalism. — Gavia immer (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Tobias Conradi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I marked an article Tobias Conradi created for speedy deletion because it was, at that time, a mere rephrasing of the title. Tobias replied by posting an insulting comment at my editor review, and was blocked for one hour for violating his civility parole. Immediately after his block expired, he reposted it (multiple times), and thus he broke both his civility parole and his revert parole. See also this edit summary, and this one. SalaSkan 17:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Tobias was blocked per ArbCom ruling for 1 hour originally; however, I declined the speedy, as I believe it to be notable and a legit stub. Now that this additional transgression has occurred, I've blocked him for an additional 48 hours. AKRadecki 17:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Given his response to Akradecki's block which is pure incivility and personal attacks on the blocking admin, I've extended this to 1 week. Hopefully he gets the message this time.--Isotope23 18:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I've never interacted with Tobias, so if another admin wants to engage him and reduce my block I'm fine with that... at this point though I felt his continued personal attacks and incivility in response to a civility probation violation warranted an extension. If someone who has dealt with him in the past feels differently I'm fine with that.--Isotope23 18:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

He has a very troubled history at Misplaced Pages, and this is recidivism. I am normally the "never block" person, but Tobias hasn't been responding very well either in being nicer and understanding the peer editing environment or understanding the deletion guidelines, so I can't see much justification for lowering the block time. I wish I could. Geogre 18:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it time to revisit the issue of community sanctions? The previous sanctions discussions were basically sidelined because of the arbitration case. - TexasAndroid 18:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I was about to question whether there's any reason to continue tolerating him, too. In my opinion he's demonstrated his inability to abide by the community's expectations of civilized behavior. Friday (talk) 18:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I would rather see the second block reduced back to two days. When a blocked user acts out by throwing a hissy fit about the block, the best thing to do it ignore it, not escalate it. Thatcher131 18:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, except that we don't actually want the kinds of editors who throw hissy fits. We already have more than enough high school drama. Friday (talk) 18:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, being an archdiocese seems a reasonable assertion of importance. And there was obviously enough context to be meaningful so A1 doesn't apply. Not really a good speedy, sorry. That doesn't justify Conradi's other behavior though. --W.marsh 23:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That's at me. I disagree completely about A1, and I left my reasoning on the article's talk page. Administrators vary in their judgments. When it comes to A1, I'm a hanging judge. I deplore "Moby Dick is a novel" being asserted as an article. An article has to be discursive. A fact is not an article. On random page clicks, if I see any X is a Y article, I'll speedy delete it. Again: an encyclopedia is not a book of facts (that's an almanac). It is a series of articles, and articles discuss and contextualize. Geogre 12:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Jiky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could someone else help me take a look at the contributions of this user? I found one page up for Speedy, and it tickled my memory. The user has written a number of pages, all totally unsourced, about a upcoming cartoon called "Monk", and other cartoon stuff. There's an older AFD here about a hoax page that looks very similar, and a recent salting at Monk (Cartoon Network series). IMHO, everything from this user is suspect, and possibly hoaxy, but it would be nice to have someone else giving opinions. There's also the issue of whether any of this is speediable beyond the Monk page itself, which is likly G4 bait. - TexasAndroid 19:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

On it.--Isotope23 19:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, I speedied the "Monk" related content. The main article went under G4 and the rest of it as G3; I consider an obvious walled garden hoax of a cartoon being referred to in the past tense with a future air date to be page creation vandalism. I PROD'd the other Cartoon Network related content as it is likely a hoax and non-notable even if it isn't. I also enacted a couple of redirects because while the created article were hoaxes, their were actual logical targets for a redirect. I also warned the contributor about hoaxing. The only article I left basically untouched was Dumb and Dumber (TV series) and that could stand a fact checking if someone has time to do it. Given the editor's other contributions I'd fine tooth comb it.--Isotope23 20:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The series exists, it's just that it was produced in 1995 and appears to be rerun on CN. I'll make some adjustments. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 21:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, maybe I'll redirect to the movie, which has a paragraph about the series (apparently, it didn't even make it a full season; for a cartoon, that's pretty bad). There's not enough info out there for a full article. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 21:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hold it, I think this guy's actually a sockpuppet of User:Danny Daniel. DD's MO is to create articles about hoax cartoon series, and one of his previous creations was this same article about a cartoon based on Monk (which is noted over in Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Danny Daniel). Further, this user here has been creating other hoax cartoon articles since Isotope warned him. If it's not Danny, it's someone who acts an awfully lot like him. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 23:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It probably is because if you look at User:Squirepants101/Danny Daniel, you'll find another sock called Gaky, which was blocked indef. Pants 17:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

TOR proxy editor reverting at House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

An editor has been using TOR proxies to revert at House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He's used three TOR proxies so far. Since he seems to have an inexhaustible supply of TOR proxies, and since proxies are not allowed to edit Misplaced Pages articles, I've semi-protected the page. Jayjg 23:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable; would it be worth hard-blocking the TOR proxy IP's (turning off anon-only) rather than soft-blocking them, or are we not doing that anymore? I can't keep this particular contentious issue straight. MastCell 23:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I've hard-blocked the proxies as well, but, as I said, the editor seems to have an inexhaustible supply of new ones. Jayjg 23:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I just looked at this one, which appeared to be soft-blocked. Looks like we're on the same page then. MastCell 23:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops, you're right, I need to fix the others. Jayjg 23:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Jay, as you yourself have been involved in an editing conflict on this page, it would have been wise to recurse yourself from protecting the page and asking a univolved admin to do so. But as the issue has been raised here, I would like to ask an uninvolved admin to have a look at the edit war on House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict regarding the scope of the article and suggest a reasonable resolution.ابو علي (Abu Ali) 23:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact is that any reasonable admin, faced with a page being attacked by numerous TOR-proxy-using anon IP's, would semi-protect the page (I certainly would have, so if you'd like, from a process point of view, consider that I semi-protected the page). MastCell 23:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

How are we then supposed to protect private information and our identities when you have given unscrupulous people like Jayjg checkuser access so that they can even see the IP addresses of user accounts? 61.124.59.83 23:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

If you believe he's violated the privacy policy, contact the Ombudsman commission (see WP:RFCU). Otherwise, stop trolling. MastCell 00:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What does any of this have to do with trolling? 69.15.202.116 00:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The edit history of this article is really atrocious. I protected it a couple of weeks ago to stop a revert war; none of the editors involved in the article bothered to use the time-out to discuss the disputed content, and now they're revert-warring again. Some salutory blocks would be in order here, per WP:3RR's "electric fence" doctrine. -- ChrisO 15:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a reminder to the article talk page and the user talk pages of the editors involved. Hopefully they will get the message. -- ChrisO 15:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, if you could refrain from using "Tor" in a derogatory manner that'd be great. Thanks, ^demon 23:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Watchtower Sentinel

User is leaving WP and has speedy deleted his user page (for the third time in four months) and is attempting to speedy his user talk page (which was already denied once, so he tried a different template. I'm sure he wants to erase his presence so that the next time he decides to come back and behave as badly as he did there won't be a visible record of his past misconduct. Could an admin please tell him he cannot delete his user talkpage? MSJapan 23:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

DES 23:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Not resolved. The User is still trying to have his Talk page deleted. Corvus cornix 01:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is, because I just protected the talk page. He can take it up with the arbcom if he likes but playing games on Wiki is disruptive. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 02:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

There needs to be a space between the period and next sentence on the warning template. 68.39.174.238 04:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Can someone talk to Dan MS please

Just reiterate my point here so that he feels able to reply as apparently my lack of account means that it's OK for him to bypass copyright. just make him aware that the history needs to be there for attribution. 86.137.57.73 02:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You say he has been posting deleted content to user subpages without maintaining history, could you possibly provide any diffs of this behavior? I don't see such edits from him in the last few days, unless I missed something. Someguy1221 02:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, DRV where he has been copy/paste restoring content:

I copied the old text to a new user sub-page and notified the user. ●DanMS • Talk 04:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

For example at User:Smithtone/Negar_Assari-Samimi. Not a huge issue, I would just like him to be aware of copyright problems when providing deleted content. 86.137.57.73 02:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

FYI, from this edit, 86.137.57.73 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) = KamrynMatika (talk · contribs) = KamrynMatika2 (talk · contribs). —Wknight94 (talk) 02:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, hi. Relevant? Not really. 86.137.57.73 02:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Just trying to attach a glimmer of context to the unnecessarily cryptic opening to this thread. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless those are socks or banned users, no, that is not relevant. Further, I also hope DanMS is aware of copyright problems. It would actually be very easy for him or another admin to correct those problems right now. I'd also like to say that refusal to respond to an editor simply for editing anonymously is disapointing. Someguy1221 03:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it's more than disappointing. It's a fundamental misunderstanding or rejection of our commitment to allow anonymous or non-registered participants. An admin should know better. --ElKevbo 03:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's nothing more than I've come to expect from Misplaced Pages users, so I don't mind too much. I would like to point out that editing and using an IP as my identifier rather than a username is the less anonymous option, as giving away my IP shows my geographical location, my ISP and could be used to identify me for legal means and so forth. And I haven't tried to hide my accounts either. However, this isn't really relevant either - I just want Dan to restore articles properly, pretty please. 86.137.57.73 03:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If you "just want Dan to restore the articles properly", you could have asked in a nicer manner and given him some clue of which articles you wanted restored. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I am rather mystified by all of this. First of all, an anonymous IP user posted a message on my talk page without identifying himself or the incident about which he is concerned. Anonymous users do not have talk pages, so how can I respond? Yes, yes, I know: There are talk pages for some IPs, but one can never be sure that an IP belongs to one particular user, or that the user who posted the message will be using the same IP the next time he edits Misplaced Pages. Second, the user did not explain the specifics about his concerns. Next, the user started an ANI thread about me without notifying me. That would have been at least the most courteous thing to do. If the anon is concerned about policy, he should read the ANI page, where it says “As a courtesy, you should inform other users if they are mentioned in a posting.” Finally, The user did not try to work out the problem with me first before starting an ANI thread.

If I erred in providing the deleted content to the user who requested it in DRV, then I am sorry. A user made a courteous request in DRV to see the old text of the deleted page so that he could rewrite it into an acceptable article. It seemed like a reasonable request, and the article was not reposted in the main wiki namespace. It that was wrong, then I accept the blame for it and I will not repeat it. Since I am involved in this incident, I will not delete the article on the user’s sub-page where I posted it. Another uninvolved admin should take care of that to avoid any conflict of interest. ●DanMS • Talk 05:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The complaint was that the history was lost on one article. (I know, it's hard to believe that is the cause of all this fuss but it is). I've properly restored the entire history of Negar Assari-Samimi and moved it over User:Smithtone/Negar Assari-Samimi. Done. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, WKnight. I appreciate your assistance. ●DanMS • Talk 19:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• I apologize to User:86.137.57.73 for my somewhat curt response in his initial inquiry on my talk page. I said “If you were had a registered Misplaced Pages account I could reply to you,” which in retrospect seems rather rude. What what I meant, and I should have said, was “If you were had a registered Misplaced Pages account and had a user talk page I could reply to you.” ●DanMS • Talk 20:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Fake warning, harassment, attacks and trolling behavior on important article

I am active on the US State Terrorism article link. Many of us are trying to seriously debate this very serious subject, only to be met with trolling, rudeness and personal attacks. Among the wrost offenders are administrators Mongo and Tom Harrison. Others are even worse. Look at this quote. "Oh my Gawd! So this is where all the nutjobs went to? I was shocked when I logged in and saw that the 9-11 conspiracy theory numnuts had recently gone silent. Checking my buddy Tom Harrison contributions, I saw he was now here, dealing with even bigger wackos. Yes, lets delete this pathetic waste of server space.--Beguiled 08:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)". I just went to the page of one of the worst offenders Tortuous Devestating Crudge link and was met with this fake message:

This user is the owner of multiple Misplaced Pages accounts in a manner permitted by policy.

Furthermore he brags:

"Described as one of the most prolific troll from my friends at Indymedia and banned from too many chat rooms to mention, I feel Misplaced Pages is both an opportuntiy to inform as well as persuade."

This is an outight admission of trolling, being a 'Sock Puppet' and 'POV Warrior' on Misplaced Pages. I ask that this phony message be removed, this and other users be warned, and that several adminstrators of all political stripes and persuasions, including some from outside the USA referee and mediate this article to curtail the onging program of harassment, rudeness, intimidation, and trolling. When some of us are working in 'good faith' only to be met with constant violations of policies, and two adminstrators who are active on the talk page every day are among the offenders, and look the other way when their partisan cohorts break every WP rule too, something is very wrong with Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Bmedley Sutler 03:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the msg on TDC's userpage means the folks at Indymedia think he trolled Indymedia. Do you have any evidence to back up these accusations against TDC?--Chaser - T 04:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The fake 'new message' warning (which I just removed from his page) is by itself, 100% trolling. Bragging about being banned for trolling on other forums, and posting messages like "Spiffy as that above quote was -Give this man a cookie! -And make it TWO, count 'em, two cookies for Ultramarine" are trolling and admission to trolling. This in on the talk page of an article about 100's of 1000's of dead civilians, not some article about comic books or something else not serious. Bragging "I feel Misplaced Pages is both an opportuntiy to inform as well as persuade" is an outight admission to being a 'POV Warrior' Much of his user page is provocation. I thought 'we' were here to 'write an encyclopedia' not troll, provoke, and definately not to 'inform and persuade' others to our POV. What about Beguiled's insults? Bmedley Sutler 04:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've restored the "new message" joke; editors have wide latitude in their own userspace. None of this stuff is trolling or any kind of policy violation that I see. The insult by Beguiled is pretty ridiculous, but I'm not acting on it 45 days after the fact. You need to bring this stuff up sooner.--Chaser - T 04:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the fake message from this page, because it's not the kind of thing we need to have on a noticeboard. For those interested, the fake message links to There's a sucker born every minute. - KrakatoaKatie 02:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

If anyone is interested, don't hestitate to examine Bmedley Sutler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) contributions and see if they think he is here to promote a neutral effort to write an encyclopedia.--MONGO 04:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, don't, as it will show he has been a rather model editor, esp. on the article page in question. I wish I could say the same for the others. I support his request for several adminstrators of all political stripes and persuasions to referee and mediate this article to curtail the onging attacks, that really amount to vandalism. See the latest attacks from the same group, blanking entire sections (and adding joke sections, such as "cultural terrrorism" repeated, and other joke sections, while blanking and obstructing progress being made by serious editors. They wanted the whole article deleted, and this disruption, and blanking, is another way to to do it. It needs mediation, and enforcement of all WP policies.Giovanni33 04:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we bring up your harassment and trolling on Junglecat's talk page, and characterizing a significant group of editors who challenge your claim of consensus as vandals? - Crockspot 05:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Stop the personal attacks. Its not trolling, and its not harassment. I'm trying to get him to answer and explain his edits. This is a sign of good faith. I see the edits as clearly vandalism, but I'm holding out on another possible explaination, which I'm all ears for. I'll wait for his answer for his repeated blanking without any discussion on talk to remove a whole section that was the product of consensus among editors from all sides. His actions, as the basis of my accusation (blanking three times in a row against three different editors, claiming it OR--but failing to explain why he feels its OR:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=146022799&oldid=146021931
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=145827861&oldid=145825656
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=146020069&oldid=146012238

As of now, I'm still waiting for your explanation from him for why he claimed it was OR, and thus blanked it completely, against the consensus of editors working on the page who supported it and worked in it with me (over 17 established editors). Again, I'm assuming good faith and so that is why I want an explanation so I can understand how it can possibly not be outright vandalism.Giovanni33 05:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I gave you my explanation, which you rejected. Junglecat obviously isn't online now. You're just being disruptive now. You need a time out. - Crockspot 05:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

And your explaination was refuted. You didn't show OR. Anyay, I'm waiting for his response. Since he blanked the page over and over and didnt yet explain himself, I think my asking him to do so is appropriate. So is my indignation at his editing behavior. As I said, I can wait. I expect when he does come back he will explain.Giovanni33 05:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry Mongo. If I ever decide to become a 'POV warrior' I will write a lot more about Big Sur and the Monterey area so I can have a 'cover' like many say you have with with your nature and park articles. I doubt I could ever sink to your level of attacks and rudeness though. Its just not in my nature. You have quite the history. I've studied it. Have a nice day.Bmedley Sutler 04:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I will appeal your restoration of the trolling 'fake new message' template to TDC's page, Chaser and your good sense in doing so. I went to that user's page in 'good faith' and was met with fakery meant to fool others and the equal of a computer hack meant to mimic Misplaced Pages software. Your defense of this is outrageous. Bmedley Sutler 05:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

We need admins who are impartial and neutral to start to enforce policy and mediate. Otherwise, all we see is the same gang create a "wall garden" to reinforce themselves--the same right-wing clique that is attacking this article they wanted deleted and sworn to get rid of. That is why outside intervention is needed. They don't want it because it means curtailing the disruption.Giovanni33 05:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Even the opposers at RFA usually don't have a problem with such messages.--Chaser - T 05:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Daniel protected the article in question for two months. I think the real question is how talk page discussion will go.--Chaser - T 05:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yup.--MONGO 05:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That is nothing new. We can easily predict based on the past what will happen. Nothing new. That is why we need referees so the bad actors will be under supervision, and policed.Giovanni33 05:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is down the hall, on your right, in the broom closet, behind the water heater... here.--Chaser - T 05:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well Chaser, looks like you are the new target. I think they've given up on talk page discussion, and are instituting a scorched earth policy. - Crockspot 05:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you 'tone in down' a little. You instigating for a time-out is unseeemly too. Adminstrators choosing to restore trolling, fakery, and computer hackery, and defending it is pretty strange. Misplaced Pages is 'all about the jokes and stunts' yes? Bmedley Sutler 05:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

YOU think that I should tone it down? That's the best joke yet. - Crockspot 05:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

—Kurykh, (and Chaser) thank you for your defense of "a computer hack meant to mimic a legitmate warning of a new message" as being approriate for Misplaced Pages. I would think after the 'Ryan Essjay' catastrophe and all the other problems like the dead wrestler that Misplaced Pages would be more interested in restoring it's severly damaged reputation than in hijinks, but jokes and stunts and defense of such actions are apparently more important! Wise choice sir! I'm logging off for the night. Bmedley Sutler 05:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(de-dented)The Joke message has been discussed a few times before. It winds up as a no consensus, semi-unsettled thing each time, with one side saying we should be more professional in our endeavors, even in userspace, and the other saying we're volunteers, and as long as it's on user pages and user talks, it's no big deal, and few get caught twice on it, because it doesn't appear in the same place as a real message does. I don't think this is going to change here, and relative to other parts of this thread, it's not that important. That part, at least, mostly comes off as sour grapes about getting tricked, and being made to feel foolish when you're already hot-tempered. Let that part go, focus on working out what got you mad in the first place. ThuranX 06:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, although, I can see how he sees its all connected, given the trolling and distruption by POV motivated editors who really want this article deleted, and seem to settle for disruption as the second best choice, and this includes a lot of trolling. When that doenst work, we then see vandalism as the last resort, which is what happened with all the blanking all of a sudden, to provoke an edit war and get the page locked again. The main point of all ths is that we need outside intervention to monitor and referee the page moving forward, and stop anyone who goes out of line, violates any policy, or breaks good wiki-norms. Can we get this kind of heavy handed intervention for an article plagued by these established editors who hate the politics the page aims to report about? Either that or we have to get those disruptive editors banned from this article (all the serious conservative editors are fine--we need their POV for NPOV and balance--but the reactionary ones who won't allow progress at all because they hate this subject to the core and want it gone, are the ones who won't allow progress to take place.Giovanni33 07:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wha??? Dude, All I said was, stop worrying about the joke banner. Don't go sidetracking into the other part, that's being discussed below. ThuranX 07:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have observed that, often, editors who use these deceptive banners troll on other subjects as well. At least, they contribute to an unserious atmosphere. Would a prestigious national library have these? A respected academic journal? Britannica? Do readers benefit when we publish them? Do other editors benefit?Proabivouac 11:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Tolerable?

Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has decided to now attack people on their usertalk and other areas. Reason...a content dispute has been ongoing now for a month and the page in question got protected due to a neverending edit war and the version that Giovanni33 preferred did not get protected. Folks...this is about a content dispute but are comments such as these made by Giovanni33 to be tolerated...these seem well over the top. (Direct quotes...typos are his)

• "You have just destoryed whatever reputation you had as a decent and credible editor on this page Shame on you!! I expect you to at least explain your abhorent behavior, as I will continue to pursue your vicious crime in this matter that I find rather dispicable worthy of the greatest contempt possible"
• "you have sunken to the bottom of ceasepool for consideration as a decent editor", "
• "you cement the veracity of the wiki-crimes I accuse you of. Yes, I accuse you. If you have any shred of validity to your blanking over and over the work of many editors with what you did to that entire section, now is the time to speak up, or else your continued silence on the matter only condemns you further."
• this wiki-crimes can not be orgotten, or swept under the rug"

Not to mention he has been accusing all those that oppose his edits as vandals or of having performed vandalism or of being disruptive..., , , --MONGO 05:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit I was pretty mad, but my indignation was justified, as it appeared to me to be pure vandalism going on, attacking the article and getting it locked in the vandalized state--with all the hard work, worked on by all the serious editors of the page blanked. I've cooled down since then but my goal remains valid: to demand an explanation for the reasoning behind the claim of OR--that was given for the blanking. I don't think asking the editor who blanking sourced material added by consensus (over 17 editors agreed), to explain his edits is off. Its the right on mark. I feel an explanation is to be expected from that editor, as those edits objectively appear as blantent vandalism to me, and others. This is a sign of good faith. Although I see the edits as clearly vandalism, in apparence, I'm holding out for another possible explanation. I'll wait for his answer for his repeated blanking without any discussion on talk to remove a whole section that was the product of consensus among editors from all sides. His actions, as the basis of my accusation (blanking three times in a row against three different editors, claiming it OR--but failing to explain why he feels its OR:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=146022799&oldid=146021931
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=145827861&oldid=145825656
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=146020069&oldid=146012238

As of now, I'm still waiting for an explanation from him for why he claimed it was OR. Again, I'm assuming good faith and so that is why I want an explanation so I can understand how it can possibly not be outright vandalism. Proof of consensus obtained prior to adding this material by editors on both sides of the fence is here:]. Yes, my language was heated and over the top, but it was in reaction to a long pattern of attacks against the hard work of all serious editors working for progress on this page. That is why we need intervention and mediation, a referee to supervise. I will say that its the height of all irony that its Mongo who is complaing about losing ones cool. I'm sure everone can appreciate that irony. I'm going to take wiki break myself, due to wiki-stress.Giovanni33 05:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's been explained many times to you in article space, user space and talk space. You choose to ignore it and call the multiple editors that have reverted your Original Research as vandals. This is simply not acceptable behavior. --Tbeatty 06:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

False. The blanked section used well sourced, reliable, verifiable sources to report from notable and significant adherents of the claim that the nuclear attack was an act of state terrorism. It presents the consensus view and then discusses in detail, by quoting those reliable sources (academics in their areas of expertise: Mark Selden (sociology and History- Binghampton), Alvin Y. So (Hong Kong University), Richard Falk (Princeton), Bruce Cumings (History, University of Chicago) and Ben Kiernan (History, Yale University), and Howard Zinn (History, Pol.Sci. Boston University) ). There is NO OR, and blanking the whole section over and over while failing to state why (except in edit summaries claiming OR), is not appropriate. Proof of consensus obtained prior to adding this material by editors on both sides of the fence:] To remove, esp. blank-like any major edit--requires consensus be obtained first. It goes both ways. I abided by it to add the material, but the blanking was done by editors who jumped it to attack it--by blanking-- without consenus, afterwards. With no explanation; that, to me, appeared like vandalism, of the most insideious kind, since its hides under the pretex of "following the rules." See his edit summaries on the diffs I provided above, for the 3 reversions he made. And, you are equally guilty of this.Giovanni33 06:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If the reverts of your edits were, as you put it, "vandalism, of the most insideious kind" then you have no idea what insidious vandalism is.--MONGO 06:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, please stop this vendetta against MONGO. It's getting quite tiring. Will 06:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Not only did MONGO start this section about Giovanni, but the difs as MONGO points out with have to do with someone else. So perhaps the direction of that comment was wrong. Did you mean to tell MONGO to leave Giovanni alone? He did follow him to the Hiroshima page and revert him while being in a prior content dispute. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The diffs I provided are examples of Giovanni33 attacking others actually...namely JungleCat.--MONGO 06:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no vendetta againt anyone, I only object to very poor behaviors they may engage in that hurt WP. This is not me attacking Mongo, its Mongo attacking me, claiming I'm attacking JungleCat. I am not interested in any attacks on any editors--just attacking what they are doing as wrong so as to prevent their reoccurance. Thus, I am attacking that editors actions, which clearly look like vandalism to me, of the worst kind (I think the most insidious kind is that from an established editor who hides it behind a false claim such as (OR), that makes it look like it could possibly be legitimate. I'm trying to open up discussion to have him explain his blanking of sourced material that was the product of consensus. He wasn't part of the discussions, but just came to the page to edit war and revert against consensus, to support his fellow POV warriors, attacking the article that he wanted deleted so much. I feel that is the real problem, and this article needs a referee to curtail this kind of disruption. If an empowered admin can be assigned to the article, it will be clear in a short matter of time who the serious editors are, and what is going on with the others there. The blanking was completely unjustified, and I object to it as strongly as I can--esp. since there is no discussion on the talk page, or even an attempt to get consenus.Giovanni33 06:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, that kind of dramatic dialogue makes you look histrionic and unreasonable.Proabivouac 07:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC) - though you may be quite right to complain about the wholesale removal off the section - as long as we're unencyclopedically documenting "allegations," those do appear to be notable allegations.Proabivouac 07:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I found myself quite upset, and I let out my steam with speedy fingers. A rare moment for me but it happens to all us humans from time to time. Some more than others, I might add.:)Giovanni33 07:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, I see, so what you say is correct then, that editors that disagree with you must all be vandals, that they are not the serious contributors to the article. JungleCat asked you (his last edit before logging off) after you made the comment"You have just destoryed whatever reputation you had as a decent and credible editor on this page Shame on you!! I expect you to at least explain your abhorent behavior, as I will continue to pursue your vicious crime in this matter that I find rather dispicable worthy of the greatest contempt possible" to not attack him...JungleCat stated: "I am going to ask you this once, and very politely, please stay off my talk page. In advance, thanks." , but you simply removed his comment from your talkpage and then made TEN more posts to his talkpage and condemnned his edits on the article's talkpage as well.--MONGO 07:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, after blanking all the work of many editors with that attack on the page--zero discussion on the talk page to explain his blanking despite being asked several times by many editors who reverted him---he was not going to get off so easy. I demanded that he explain himself, so as to put to rest my being very upset that he was acting like a vandal. I don't like vandals, and they do make me mad for its WP that they are vandalizing and the hard work of editors who respect each other and build bridges, good faith, and work together. His actions where the antithesis of this--but I always direct and attack their behavior, which I find to be objectively vandalism in practice-destroyed the work of others with no good reason (that can be understood). You are wrong to suggest that those who simply disagree with me, that I characterize their behavior one of being a vandal. No. It's very specfic actions that makes what they do objetively look like vandalism to me (as I've explained on talk and other places). For starters this entails no discussion, just blanking sourced material against consensus, and refusing or ignoring attempts to discuss the alleged problem. Disagreement is fine, and I am always willing to compromise. In fact, I see the the reasoned clash of ideas as helpful in fact, as different POV's put a check on each others inherent biases. Its the locomotive of progress. But this obviously only applies to serious editors who are editing in good faith, and communicating, respecting the norms of the community, etc. Failure to even talk about massive changes, such as blanking entire sections that were carefully put together by many editors working together, and to continue to blank against consensus, can hardly be counted as good faith editing on the surface, and demands explanation from the editor. Merzbow and I clash POV's, and we have edit warred, as well. However, I never called anything he did vandalism because he never acted that way. The same for many other editors who are very conservative. But we have a small handful whose actions are distinctly of a different kind,whoose purpose in the article (maybe elswhere they are fine--blind spot?) have not been to resolve disputes and move things forward, bu to provoke conflict, and cause disruption, preventing progress by all kinds of tactics, including trolling, edit waring, blanking, not discussing. That is what vandalism of the worse kind accomplishes. Usually the more editors, the better. But sometimes we need to remove a few editors to make things better. Again, if we can get some trusted, neutral admin to mediate, and follow closely what is going on, I think this will either deter this from continuing, or get certain editors banned from that article at least. Otherwise, I am prepared to indict, accuse, and bring to the fore front this group of editors who I feel fit into that category whose actions make them NOT being in this article the best thing for making progress in creating a NPOV, encylopedic featured article. And that is my only goal.Giovanni33 07:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that User:Bmedley Sutler has now pasted this matter to Jimbo's talk page. Just so's you know - Alison ☺ 07:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

My jaw just hit the floor when I logged in this morning... I don't even know where to begin. I will ask that Giovanni33 to stay off my talk page. He made this remark which was inappropriate. I asked him not to post on my page, and he added the disputed material on my talk page. In my time here, I have never encountered such harassment or behavior from another user. I do not want him posting inappropriate text or verbal attacks on my talk again (if that can be enforced). JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 14:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not just answer his questions? Why does everyone choose the most drama filled route for things around here? An answer and discussion would have deflated a situation and if you were right for what you did or had reasonable explanations for, might have even earned you an apology from Giovanni. Is anyone actually allowed to have someone banned from their talk page if they are editing a common article? If so how can I go about it, and how does that person then deal with the user if they have problems with their edits? --SevenOfDiamonds 17:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with all of you? This site is starting to look like a day care. The same people who voted for an article to be deleted appear on the page and remove sections and sources, obviously, voting in tandem that those sections should be removed. This is permitted oddly as they are making a new concensus ... which is just a majority vote. I find this quite silly as the idea of AfD was that there was no concensus to delete the article, so instead entire sections are removed from it, until its empty?

So far I have written a few articles and this article on state terrorism has attracted such childish behavior all around to the point where even my userpage was vandalized by one of the discussion participants. Admins just a few days ago told MONGO and Giovanni to leave eachother alone, and here is just more carrying on and MONGO calling Giovanni a "troll" etc. I am happy to see the page protected, at least that way perhaps others can move on and ... do some editing? However I think an admin needs to look at the participation on the talk page of this article or just deal with more reports here. The majority, well all but Tom harrison, that voted for deletion, have done nothing but remove content, sources, and stone wall discussion with policy names, often refusing or ignoring questions regarding why they think something is OR or fails V etc.

For the sake of all involved can an admin look over the behavior of that talk page, and the way in which users are "participating" in the article. Also a big thank you to the long overdue protection, at least that garuntees no more content will be blanked. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Time for community ban of...?

Regarding the above discussion. For the first time, I just saw Giovanni33's block log. Incredible stuff. Isn't it typical that someone with that track record receives a community ban? Isn't it time for a community ban?  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 18:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You just saw it? haha Its being brought up everytime there is any issue to poision the well, no matter how irrelevent it is. Most of the blocks were overturned, and they are ALL form last year. No one has been fooled yet by this tactic, but I its a nice try. I don't blame you for trying, and it supports my claims below.Giovanni33 19:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps when MONGO isn't following Giovanni around to bait him. Such as Giovanni's edit and MONGO's appearance shortly after to revert him. He went on to revert Giovanni 3 times on that article. I am not sure why people keep chiming in to say Giovanni needs to leave MONGO alone, when it seems MONGO is not doing his fair share to avoid Giovanni. Oddly enough Tom Harisson appears right after MONGO to continue the reverts . Neither Tom nor MONGO had edited the article in over 6 months, possibly ever, I only looked back to January. I think everyone needs to take a step back and just relax. Your escalation of the situation as if it is one sided is also not appropriate. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's time for a community ban. Giovanni's main purpose here seems to be to revert war, and then to use sockpuppets to get around blocks for 3RR. He's lucky that he's been allowed to edit for this long. Pablo Talk | Contributions 18:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think he has been trying to do some editing, but as noted above he seems to be followed around and reverted. Why do you say Giovanni is revert warring when MONGO nor Tom clearly had a reason to be at that article, or edited it in over 6 months until Giovanni appeared there. Also of MONGO's last 20 or so edits to the state terrorism page, 15 have been reverts. I have not even check the rest, but I did not see any content additions. I think the revert warring allegations are going the wrong way. --SevenOfDiamonds 19:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I know this, when I logged in this morning I was utterly shocked by the posts to my talk page. To answer his "question" from his caustic lashing here, others have explained the WP:OR issues and verifiability concerns. And yet Giovanni refuses to listen. Well sorry, but our policies are too important to just ignore. Even from What "Ignore all rules" means: "Ignore all rules" is not an invitation to use Misplaced Pages for purposes contrary to that of building a 💕 - and that includes no original research. Like I have just said, others have explained more than adequately why it doesn't belong. And as far as these kind of posts to my talk page, I can do without. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 19:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you care to engage in third party dispute resolution? Because many who claim OR have yet to be able to back them up. This includes some on that page such as UltraMarine who do not read the sources. I spent most of one day explaining to UltraMarine what a source was saying because he objected to it, without actually reading it, at one point stating the Commander of the Armed Forces of Colombia was just "some military guy." There have bene arguments that sources are not WP:RS since noone has heard of them, forget the fact that they are Human Rights Groups attached to the United Nations, but since a few Americans never heard of the French group, and could not read their reports, they failed WP:RS. Perhaps you are just not aware of the arguments made on the state terrorism page, to be aware of what some editors have had to deal with. Just to give you an idea, of MONGO's edit in the last 20 days to that page, they all have been reverts. Since I have no doubt you are attempting to be neutral, you may want to view the archives to get a full understanding of much of the drama that has been happening on that page before stating anything. Further, I ask again, instead of all the drama and rule laying, why didnt you just answer the question regarding WP:OR and how you felt it applied on the talk page? It seems like unnecessay steps keep being taken with little point other then to annoy fellow editors. I am sure it wasn't your intention, but you felt an editor wanted an answer and was being impatient, so you instead tell them not to be impatient, and then do not answer the question ... --SevenOfDiamonds 19:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

He can continue to wholesale blank well sourced material whose addition was agreed to by a majority of editors on both sides after exentsive discussion on the talk page, but he can't answer a simple question explaining why? Like I said, I'm still assuming good faith, but it becomes harder and harder to assume these kinds of edits are good faith ones. Perhaps he is just not familiar with signifance of the claims, so I'll just add more sources on top of the more than adequate ones already presented. And, lets see if he will-- after there is again consensus to re-add the material--simply drop by the article to start blanking again, and refuse to explain why. If any newbie did this, it would be called vandalism right away. Just because an editor is estabished does not mean they can't do the same. If he simply answered my question, or explained himself on talk, there would have been no need for me to go to his talk page. If he doens't like the reaction he recieved, then I ask him to consider his own role in creating it.Giovanni33 20:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, you are the one who harassed him repeatedly on his talkpage after he very politely asked you to stay away...he had logged off, yet you continued to outrageously attack JungleCat. I have never seen such a barrage of hate filled attacks by an established editor in my entire time of editing here...except in cases where some editor has vaporlocked and is about to be banned anyway, as has been done by editors like Rootology. Frankly, it looked to me like you were "packing it in", completely unconcerned about what might happen to you. And even now, I see you trying to state that your comments are someone elses fault. Your last block was only rescinded because the article you had been edit warring on got protected.--MONGO 21:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What has Rootology got to do with this discussion, even as an "example"? Might I suggest that MONGO remove the reference as not being germaine? LessHeard vanU 21:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Then I will, of course, remove this comment... ;~)

It is appropriate. As I said, the few times I have seen anyone act the way Giovanni33 did on JungleCat's talkpage was when editors who have been or were obviously going to be banned (such as Rootology) went berserk. That is what we are dealing with here, an out of control editor who has gone berserk.--MONGO 21:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

More personal attacks, Mongo, or it is just more Psychological projection of your own?Giovanni33 21:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The purported reaction of Giovanni being unusual may be appropriate to mention, but in the context of naming an individual who participates on an off-Wiki site? I simply do not see what you are thinking you are achieving by referring to them. Giovanni's "reaction" is the worst you have seen, IYO, for some (considerable) time... why not leave it at that? LessHeard vanU 22:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't take a position in this discussion, but if it's going to continue, I suggest going to Misplaced Pages:Community sanction noticeboard. If someone still wants a community ban, lay out the case there with diffs in support. A community ban is the last step in dispute resolution; please don't ask for one lightly.--Chaser - T 19:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Also, I note that of that very healthy block list, almost all but one are over a year old, and the only recent block was rescinded by the blocking admin. I suspect this is a bit too complicated for either the WP:ANI or WP:CN. I suspect that arbcomm might be a better venue, since they can look at everyone's behaviour and find solutions that fall short of banning. Bucketsofg 19:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• A community ban for these handful of editor who continue to attack the article, wikistalk, troll, bait, and vanadalize legitimate content, may be order shortly, if they continue. They have some good edits on other article, but not politically controverisal articles such as this one, so I favor an article ban only at this time. I also point out that instead of answer my question about why they did what they did, which I find most inexcusable, they still can't answer, and instead launch into more attacks on me. Well, that makes sense. See, it seems to me that, regarding the current division of opinion as expressed on the talk page, at least those who are for the inclusion of the material have a position of compromise to offer. We could allow a relevant, adequately sourced criticism of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki section.We could also include a sentence designating our material as a minority or controversial viewpoint- even though this is redundant, since it has already done in the main introduction.

• On the other hand, for those who insist on deletion of the well-sourced material from university profs of global stature- well, no position of compromise is possible, with them. So they blank it, run away, and attack the user who is trying to find common ground. For them, the majority of regular editors, or at least a very significant portion, must simply be muzzled on this issue. And, since I am most active in making progress on this article, I'm a logical target.

• It amounts to the censorship of significant minority viewpoints and wikipedia becomes all the poor for this loss of legitimate diversity. Also the real reason it is being forcefully vandalized is not because it's poor,but rather because it's too good, too well-referenced from major figures. They know that I, along with others, will contintue to fine and add more solid sources for Hiroshima/Nagasaki, issue, and State terrorism. I am also compiling a general reference list for U.S. state terrorism and critical terrorism studies. The literature is actually quite abundant and significant. It is one of the sources that can drawn from along with the human rights organizations, and the more popularly known political analysts. So, yes, they can't win the argument by WP policies, so they become desperate and must attack. Again, is the same group of well known right-wing POV warriors at work here. No surprise to anyone who knows whats is going on. The question is, will WP allow them to continue to silent significant minority viewpoints and editor such as myself who are fighting for such legitimate and important diversity of content, or will they all this gang to run rampant to supress and whitewash WP from a global Encylopedia to one that suffers from systematic bias rooted in US nationalism. I hope the former.Giovanni33 19:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much but i think the ArbCom is or surely would be the appropriate venue to sort this mess out one day. I don't know who is right and who is wrong as i m not following your details but it appears that the AN/I is just being used for forum shopping by both sides recently. Most probably nobody would ban you. Nobody would block MONGO. Neither AN/I nor mediation would do the job due the nature of your disputes. -- FayssalF - 19:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the Community sanction noticeboard would be a better forum for this than the current board. Anynobody 01:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm an uninvolved editor who just happened to surf in but although Giovanni's comments on Junglecat's talkpage are a bit overblown and you expect him to go I challenge you to a duel! any minute, he hasn't sworn or anything like that, and his comments could argueably be taken as against Junglecat's edits rather than personal attacks about him personally. And his previous blocks were months/almost years ago. Maybe a block/strong warning?Merkinsmum 02:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it was a bit overblown, and indeed histrionic, yet, it did properly express my outrage and indignation at Junglecats repeated blanking without explanation. He says he "jaw dropped,"--well so did mine when I saw what he was doing to the article. I don't know Junglecats, other than his edits, and that is the only thing I very strongly objected to--as I would object to any editor whose edits appeared to me to be vandalism against the work of many editors. Maybe next time he will think twice and discuss on the talk page before taking an action like that--and then he wouldnt have gotten such a strong reaction.Giovanni33 03:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, you speak as if I have never posted to the article talk page. You try to make it seem as if I had no clue what was going on - and that I did some drive-by vandalism. You obviously do not understand (or care to realize) what the true meaning of consensus is. Have you read Misplaced Pages:Consensus? And Quote: Consensus on Misplaced Pages always means, within the framework of communal consensus, as documented by established policies and practice. Consensus never means "whatever a limited group of editors might agree upon", where this contradicts policy and practice. This has been explained to you pertaining to policy, yet you do not want to hear it. Well, sorry. I feel as if I have been talking to a brick wall. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 14:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Giovanni or revret him, however the section that was added on Japan had everyones agreement except TBeatty who stated it was OR, but would not explain how, and when attempted, received no support. MONGO supported the section requesting it stays small, all others just supported. There was clear concensus to include. I have since posted 4 more sources for that section, showing clearly that it is not a fringe view, this is onto of the other 6 that were looked at and nothing was found wrong with them. This is also why I asked you to read the archives above. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What to do...

In my usual user talk page runs (and this must happen more commonly for those who work with images), I find that there are often pages full of fair use warnings from either OrphanBot, BetacommandBot, or general users and administrators. Should we really continue to allow these users to edit, when they are unchanging fair use abusers?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Editors continuing to (a) actively engage in behavior that is inconsistent with our policies and community norms and (b) has been warned multiple times should be blocked, IMHO. Of course, it's easy for me to say that as a non-admin who doesn't have to deal with unblock requests and other fallout. :)

I seem to come across editors who at one time uploaded several images and received warnings about those images but the editor has either left the project or doesn't upload images anymore. Those are obviously different from those who continue to engage in such behavior and should be treated differently. --ElKevbo 04:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Since it seems that the efforts and applications of those bots ramped up recently, I do wonder if you're not seeing a warning for an image uploaded a while ago, which the bots hit more recently? If someone uploaded a bunch of pictures back in '04 or '05, then they'd have recieved a slew of warnings when the bots got to those warnings, which might look like the editor is actively uploading now and ignoring the process. Is this a possible scenario, given the workings of the bots? ThuranX 06:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm pointing out editors who are currently ongoing and ignore those items on their talk page.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, well then, yeah, maybe a warning that continuing to upload in violation will lead to blocking, so they understand the gravity of the situation, followed by swiftly and firmly blocking the first one to poke the fate bear? (And I only asked about the older thing because I can easily see such a thing hapening, but if these are recent uploads over time, with repeated bot notices being disregarded with respect to upoads after bot notices, then smite away mightily.) ThuranX 07:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

In the past, I have delt with this situation, not by blocking the editor concerned, but by deleting everything they upload on sight. Quite often editors who simply cannot understand our image use policies do actually make good contributions to the encylopedia. By deleting their images as soon as they upload them, they have to opportunity to learn that we will not tolerate copyvioations without us losing an otherwise good contributor. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 10:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

In such a case I would just block them. If they get the impression that they can simply upload a new image whenever we delete one with no consequences it just turns into a game that wastes everyones time. If after multiple warnings and attempts to explain they keep re-uploading deleted images it doesn't matter how well they otherwise edit, a solid whack with the cluebat is very much in order. Gmaxwell mentioned at WT:NONFREE#Compliance rate that they have a JavaScript hack on Commons that can be used to "disable" uploads for someone without bocking them (yeah it's easy enough to get around if they have half a clue, but still...), it might be worth looking into deploying that here as well, but I also agree with him that we should not be afraid of outright blocking people who completely ignore warnings and clearly are not even trying to abide by the image policies. --Sherool (talk) 11:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

1. If the -bots are always right.
2. If the violations are knowing.
3. If the violations are actual violations, and not a mis-tagging thing because of the change in Misplaced Pages's systems,

Then, yes. Otherwise, note that people who've been here ages and ages can have some -bot go through a spasm, suddenly tag four (of maybe 50) images, and the editor may just ignore it. It then looks like a "page full of warnings." Sometimes the bot is wrong (shouldn't a human follow up?), sometimes the newbie is just clueless and isn't educated by the -bot, and sometimes the violations are because we used to just say what the licensing is, and now we have to click on this button or that. It can't be an automatic conclusion, not when it's a stupid system involved (a -bot). -Bots can't determine that a person should be blocked: an admin needs to investigate. Geogre 12:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but Ryulong seems to be talking about what to do when he finds them, not go hunting them down, which means he, and others, would probably have time to look into it a bit. I don't think he's at all interested in having a bot chase another bot, tally warnings, and run some sort of autoblocking, in fact, i think that's against the bot policy. I think he wants to figure out what to do when he does see it, and right now, it looks like 'warn those who seem oblivious, and block those who exercise their 'obliviate response' excessively'. ThuranX 12:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(EC)I'm not saying a bot should block them, but if you do see someone with several old "no source" or simmilar warnings and notice that they have just kept uploading more images with the same problems despite this it's probably time to take things to the next level to make sure they get the message. The key beeing not the number of warnings, but that they have continued uploading problem images after beeing notified that theyr previous uploads have had problems. Maybe give one final "hand written" warning just in case, but if that goes unheeded I'd say block them regardles of how good editors they otherwise appear to be. --Sherool (talk) 13:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

if a user has been warned (by a human) and persists, I see nothing wrong with issuing a short block. It may just be a block of 2 hours or so, this has never killed anyone, but may work wonders in some cases (people who never bother to even read warnings need an illustration that they can and will be blocked). That's what your blocking button is for, don't be afraid to use it. I am talking of moderate use of short blocks to get a user to pay attention to warnings. Not, of course, blocking people for two days because they forgot to tag some image they uploaded (be reasonable). dab (𒁳) 13:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to impugn anyone's character, except the character of the -bots. I suppose the issues with them are well known enough that I don't need to delineate them. Let's just say that they're wrong some of the time and very wrong some of the time and blind all of the time, and I think we need to be really careful about relying upon their judgment (when they don't have any). I'm getting peppered every so often with "You have no rationale for this image," when it's an image that I uploaded and properly tagged back in 2004 or 2005 under the proper system then, and we've had FAC's that are getting images deleted because of that. I was just saying, as I always do, that the warnings may be pointers, but nothing alleviates the need to investigate (and warn, as a human being, to another human being). I don't think people understand how off-putting and incommunicative -bot warnings can be. At least try speaking, first. I'm sure Ryulong will do that, but I didn't want anyone to read this and conclude "Block 'em if there are bot warnings." Geogre 13:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think everyone's on the same page. Small blocks are justified in many cases, warnings in others, all situations to be reviewed by humans and dealt with case-by-case. ThuranX 13:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Call for assassination

Whoa! Check out this edit! Please block or otherwise deal with this editor. I'm usually more than happy to dive in with warnings for my fellow editors to help our or set an example but this is beyond the pale. --ElKevbo 04:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Warned. As indicated there, looks like trolling.--Chaser - T 04:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your help and your response but I don't understand how actively advocating for someone's assassination merits only a warning, particularly given that editor's history of blatant trolling and disruption. --ElKevbo 05:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Technically, he's calling for "assasaination", whatever that might be. He should be e-vick-ted on account o' por spelin'. Baseball Bugs 05:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Durova's now blocked the account, so that solves that.--Chaser - T 05:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I am categorically opposed to guessing whether a death threat is genuine or not. Even if only one threat in 10,000 is serious, this site is too big to roll the dice on that gamble. Durova 05:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well done. -- FayssalF - 05:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I'm marking this resolved. --ElKevbo 05:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me why this is serious enough to warrant a block? In the case of death threats against editors, we indefinitely block to protect the editor from the threats, but it's virtually impossible that Michael Vick would ever know about this. I don't mind Durova's block, but obviously I didn't think this was that big a deal. (Of course, I also saw this more as stupid nonsense than a serious "call for assassination", but perhaps I misread.)--Chaser - T 06:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Check other edits by this "editor" though...including his great contributions to the Al Sharpton article...--MONGO 06:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I feel a little more sheepish, now. Thanks, MONGO.--Chaser - T 06:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I was only trying to show that all we have here is a vandal account anyway. Sorry if it came across differently.--MONGO 06:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

User disputing page written about him

I recommend taking a look at the biography of Edward McSweegan, which seems to have an escalating conflict and legal threat implications. User:Emcsweegan is vociferously objecting to his characterization and repeatedly alters the page, defames Misplaced Pages, and claims that he doesn't want to be listed here. I don't know who's at 'fault' here, but as this falls under the realm of WP:BLP and we have an irate living person defacing their own biography, I suggest immediate administrator intervention to deal with this issue. Eliz81 13:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

While admins get to it, I looked at it. McSweegan's right about the article being started by a Lyme activist, one who really does seem to think that Lyme's a bioweapon, and McSweegan's provided, numerous times, it seems, clarifications, including going through it line by line. He's not familiar with wiki-policy, and given the BLP issues, i doubt he cares. However, it's clear that the majority of the current article text was plagarized, so I removed it. At the same time, I removed his rant, since that's likely to agitate without aiding. This leaves the article stubbed. Not sure there's really much impressive about him, and I note that the older version (the not-his version) really mostly set up that he'd done some of his fiction writing on NIH time, or at least, NIH premises. That seems to make it a cheap swipe at an otherwise relatively non-notable guy. (With apologies to the subject.) ThuranX 13:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As it seems that he's only marginally notable and wishes for removal, I've sent it to AfD. — Shinhan < talk > 15:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I just did a major rewrite to the article--hopefully this will salvage it. Blueboy96 17:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Despite efforts by myself and Studerby to fix the article, McSweegan continues to revert it to include a rant that it's "not approved" by him. I almost reported him to AIV, but decided against it given the sensitivity of the matter (i.e., the original version was a blatant BLP violation, as well as heavily plagiarized). Clearly someone needs to intervene here--I tried to reason with im, but it's not working. Blueboy96 19:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• (cross-posted from WP:BLPN)It seems per Dr. McSweegan's post at the AfD (), he claims the article was originally intended as an attack page. It's hard not to come to that conclusion, based on the article history. The author, Freyfaxi (talk · contribs), subscribes to the fringe theory that Lyme disease is a biological weapon. As mentioned above, it was heavily plagiarized. I see the best way out of this is oversighting all versions prior to ThuranX's edit today. I also think that Freyfaxi should be subjected to some sort of sanction as well. Blueboy96 23:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• The article has now been oversighted, but I want to bring a quote left by Dr. McSweegan at the AfD to the attention of administrators: "I'm going on vacation for a few days; when I get back we'll settle this in public, not behind Wiki's barred doors." Eliz81 12:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Jimbo Wales

Somebody added this to the top of the Jimbo Wales' page. That was quickly reverted, but there category itself, and all the users in it staid. I checked two of the users in the Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Jimbo Wales and both of them created only one page each, claiming they are sockpupets of Jimbo Wales. Creative vandalism, what can I say. Since I dont know which speedy tag to use for marking this and am not an admin, anybody wanna take care of this? — Shinhan < talk > 13:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess WP:CSD#G1 works the best here.-Wafulz 13:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it had quite coherent and well thought-out content. But it was also obviously malicious vandalism. Thanks for the cleanup :) — Shinhan < talk > 14:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Retired

Hello, I've decided with great sadness I must leave being an editor on wikipedia and follow my dream to become a published author. The last few weeks I have spent on Misplaced Pages doing edits and taking part in Afd discussions have been really great, but they have been seriously affecting my work time on my book and so with that I am asking that my account be deleted and made so it cannot be restored. The urge is very great for me to log back in any time and start editing and I think if my account was closed and permanently deleted it would help overcome my wikipedia addiction!

Thanks, Ispy1981

We can't block you ourselves, but you can use Misplaced Pages:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/WikiBreak Enforcer, which does pretty much the exact same thing.-Wafulz 14:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Can I get a Right To Dissapear deletion? It deletes everything on my user page and contribution pages and makes it unable to get it recreated. My biggest fear is I will log in everyday, Misplaced Pages has become an addiction and is seriously starting to impede my lifestyle, I have seen other people request their account be blocked and deleted and quite a few of them have had it done successfully.

Thanks, Ispy1981

If you can't exercise the most modicum of self restraint, something else is wrong friend. It's just a website, requests for self blocks and whatnot are often seen as unnecessary drama. If you can't trust yourself to stop editing Misplaced Pages, how can you expect to succeed on your new endeavor? Best of luck with the book, it's an exciting new direction and I wish you success, but regarding Misplaced Pages... just stop visiting, if you're done. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the problem, i can't just stop. I logged out of my account and could log back in successfully, can someone please Block me indef if possible? The "pull" is just to great. Do I need to break rules or, how can I get an indef block guys?

Thanks, Ispy1981

The thing is, even if we did block you, it would be trivially easy for you to create another account tomorrow. You have to do this yourself. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 14:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Also if you start posting disruptive edits, your talk page will be restored and warning messages will be added to it. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 14:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm Ispy1981. This is bullshit. This is from an anon editor who has hacked into my account. I've been locked out of my account. Is there anything I can do?--75.32.146.37 14:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You can stop playing games. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 14:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not as sure as Theresa that there isn't a real problem here as I've dealt with Ispy1981 as a very good-faith user in the past. Unfortunately I am away from home with limited access today and would ask that this situation be looked into a little further by someone with more time and the ability to ping a checkuser if needed. (Sorry if it turns out I AGF'd to a fault here.) Newyorkbrad 15:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm yes, on looking into it further the account may well be compromised. It seemed very strange that both of them should be online at the same time. Somone with checkuser needs to look into this. It looks like the password was changed on the 15th which seems strange. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Brad,

We've worked together on several edits and harassing users over the last year on Misplaced Pages and I have to tell you, this is getting as bad as it can be. Recently I decided to retire from Misplaced Pages to persue my goal as a published author and with great support from the Misplaced Pages community I had my name taken off the Misplaced Pages roster as an editor. Though I'm sad to go and I enjoyed Misplaced Pages, it seems now that someone, an anon author perhaps, has decided to try and bs his way into my account. He has posted on multiple places with different ip addresses in an attempt to gain entry into my account. Please disregard above, if you need to you can reach me at swwriter(atsign)hotmail(fullstop)com, the same email address that has been on my account since 7/14/2007 and as well you can see I asked for a new password on 7/15/2007 and made many constructive edits to Misplaced Pages as well. Just an angry anon editor perhaps, a checksum woul;d be more then welcome. Ispy1981 15:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Please provide diffs. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Email address obfuscated due to harvest-bot concerns. —Crazytales  16:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Result

I've talked to both parties via email and am now pretty convinced that the Ispy1981 was compromised by a previously banned user. Either that or they are both the same person pissing about. Anyway I've undone the page deletions and blocked the account. I'm still in contact with both of them and will try to continue to sort it out but I don't think there is any more we can do here. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hrmm, sounds like we've been trolled. --Cyde Weys 17:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but by whom? Newyorkbrad 18:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone run a CheckUser on them yet? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 23:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've asked for it to be done (in private, so that I could lay the evidence bare). I'm waiting for a reply. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe I can answer Brad's question. I'm Seth, aka the real Ispy, on a new account, per Theresa's instruction. It is true that I changed my email on the 14th of this month, mainly because my old email, ragincajun502@hotmail.com (please don't obscure, as it may provide more proof of who I am) is no longer valid. Ispy #2 hacked into my hotmail account that I was using for wiki. He then asked for a new password. That is how he was able to compromise my account. The question of who this is is simple. This is a known stalker of a certain underage actress. I have spoken to both Brad and Theresa about this person in the past. I believe that, not only would a checkuser be useful, if anyone knows how to read a reverse DNS, you will see the two Ispys come from not only two different locations, but different platforms, as well (my account is an SBC static, his is RoadRunner dynamic).--Sethacus 15:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Itzwiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Itzwiki is an abusive sockpuppet of Hatewatcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) being used to upload Image:Contract 0081.jpg, an image which constitutes unreferenced negative information concerning a living person, in violation of WP:BLP, and which is identical to Image:Kevin strom contract.jpg, uploaded by Hatewatcher, which was speedily deleted pursuant to CSD G10. Itzwiki has also placed the WP:BLP violating image in Kevin Alfred Strom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) just as Hatewatcher did. John254 15:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Certainly a sockpuppet, though I have no opinion on the veracity or encyclopedic-ness of the image. Hatewatcher is not under a block now (indeed has never been blocked), so I won't block Itzwiki. —Crazytales !! 16:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Contract 0081.jpg and Image:Kevin strom contract.jpg constitute blatant WP:BLP violations, since no reliable sources have been cited to show that the images are authentic. Hatewatcher's use of Itzwiki as a sockpuppet account to upload Image:Contract 0081.jpg, after being warned regarding the uploading of the same image as Image:Kevin strom contract.jpg, is a clear violation of Misplaced Pages:Sock_puppetry#.22Good_hand.2C_bad_hand.22_accounts, which expressly provides that "The use of alternate accounts for deliberate policy violations is specifically proscribed: All users... are proscribed from operating a "bad hand" account for the purpose of policy violations or disruption..." John254 16:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Disputed TfD closing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could an uninvolved admin review this early non-admin closure of a July 21 TFD for {{Allegations of apartheid}}, later disputed? The reason for the early close was that it was very recently nominated for deletion, on July 10th (closed 4 days ago). Uninvolved ideally means "never seen this template before". Gracenotes § 15:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Cerejota should not have closed that discussion. He's been heavily involved in other AfDs on the apartheid series of articles and isn't remotely neutral on the issue; it's not appropriate for someone with that level of involvement to close a deletion debate. However, he's probably right that it's too soon for another AfD, so I would leave the issue as moot and come back to it at a later stage. -- ChrisO 15:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: This has also been brought up on WP:AN. --OnoremDil 15:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Ward Churchill misconduct issues

user:Nandesuka blanked an entire article after I posted a notice about it on WP:BLP. I went through the entire article, and found only 2 external links that needed to be removed, and Nandesuka wipes the entire page . Any issues he had could have been dealt with on the talk page or through an Afd, not by unilateraly wiping away months of work and hundreds of edits. I would like it restored. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've put it up on WP:DRV. In the future, if you feel the deletion process was violated by an admin or other user, you can just ask for a vote on WP:DRV.

User Matildaluvr15

Can an admin please check Special:Contributions/Matildaluvr15? The user is creating a series of articles which have no context or meaningful info --NeilN 16:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Bleh999 in TfD for {{Allegations of apartheid}}

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

This is being discussed already at WP:AN#I_have_a_question. Let's please keep all of the discussion of this single incident in one place. You can repost this there if you like. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Bleh999 opened a TfD for {{Allegations of apartheid}} less than four days after the previous one, without discussing first in the talk page of the template.

Then I explained why this was wrong, and provided a remedy: this was a clear WP:DRV issue, not a TfD issue.

After a few hours to allow action, I snowballed a close.

User:Bleh999 reverted the close multiple times: ,.

He alleges that editors cannot close TfDs. But {{closing}} and common practice in XfDs argue against that when the result is any other than delete. Editors can do it, have done it, and will continue to do it.

Furthermore, he has ignored WP:DELETE which clearly states that nominations should not be redone until after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

This user is clearly being disruptive: the close tags of XfD clearly state that once something is closed, it should not be re-opened or further edited. If he had problems with the closing, he had to go to WP:DRV, not edit war over the closing. Thanks!--Cerejota 17:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

An editor keeps erasing (but not archiving) their talk page history

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Corticopia tried to delete her talk page history, because she wanted to hide the fact that she was banned on this edit. I tried to archive her talk page at first, thinking that she only didn't know how to archive her talk page on this edit. On this edit I provided a link to WP:ARCHIVE, so that she would know it is against policy to erase your talk page and not archive it. After three more reversions by User:Corticopia on this edit, this edit and this edit to her erased-talk-page version, it became clear that her intensions were deceitful attempts to cover up her past history of being banned.----Tea 18:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:ARCHIVE is not policy; its not even a guideline. In fact, WP:TALK says: "Policy does not prohibit users from removing comments from their own talk pages." It is generally frowned upon, but as the user is making constructive edits, I see no reason to take any action here. Also, it was a 1 month block, not a ban. The info is still available in the history. People are about as likely to check that as they are an archive when they visit a user's talk page. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 18:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:TALK actually says, "When pages get too long Archive — don't delete: When a talk page has become too large or a particular subject is no longer being discussed, don't delete the content — archive it. See Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page for details on why and how to."----Tea 18:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:TALK is a guideline, though, "...not set in stone." It is preferred that editors archive, but it isn't a requirement. Some editors will periodically blank old sections and some will have huge talkpages that needs a sled and husky team to navigate. LessHeard vanU 19:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:TALK is primarily about article talk pages, not user talk pages. Besides that, as indicated above, sysops are more likely to see a block log first than trudge through talk archives to find previous blocks. That's what I do.--Chaser - T 19:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if m:right to vanish is trying to be applied here. User:Zscout370 19:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition to which the instructions for how to archive are too convoluted to follow. It's probably not malice, just inability to follow incomprehensible directsion. I've tried archiving--forget it. KP Botany 20:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Users are allowed to blank their talk pages - it's perfectly within their rights. Corticopia has had conflicts with other users he may be trying to put behind him - which is his right. WilyD 20:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, WilyD -- WP:ARCHIVE is not even policy, and DarkTea's persistent, self-directed attempts to archive my talk page without my consent and in spite of my explicit objections and actions are unwanted, disruptive, and rude. I will decide if, when, and what needs to be archived regarding my talk pages (which is really a redundancy given the use of diffs and other tools). Apropos, DarkTea is hereby advised to not comment on, edit, or archive my user and talk pages ever again, or matters will escalate quickly. Corticopia 21:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow... Corticopia, I understand you're frustrated, but I'd encourage you to just walk away at this point. Comments such as the one you left may only serve to inflame the situation. Walk away. It's the better part of valour. - Philippe | Talk 21:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Understood, but perhaps you should encourage the instigator of this farce to have done so from the get-go ... and I see that WilyD has already commented on DT's talk page. Thanks. Corticopia 22:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes Corticopia, given your record I would say a user has the right to comment on your talk page if she disagrees with you on something. However, I do agree she shouldn't archive it without permission (the page history would still exist anyway). New England 21:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Here we go. Excuse me, but DarkTea has instigated this morass, and my 'record' (whatever the relevance) has as much to do with this as hers. The best way to avoid problems is to not create them -- consult the talk page and edit history of Asia, which demonstrate DT's tendentious behaviour. I will also point out that New England (AKA Black Harry) is not an administrator and, given prior interactions, is not impartial regarding this. Like, why is this editor even commenting? Corticopia 22:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Cortiopia, I would advise you to look at WP:OWN. And I have every right to voice my opinion here (you don't get to say who can and cannot talk) New England 22:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This policy has absolutely nothing to do with the incipient issue. And, considering the source, I will hereafter refrain from commenting here unless there's reason to do so. Corticopia 22:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What Corticopia is doing is perfectly acceptable - there's nothing else to discuss. WilyD 00:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Carls12 keeps (re)creating single-word templates

See Special:Contributions/Carls12. This user has been (re)creating single-word pages in template: space faster then I can tag them. In adition, he uploads a truckload small sized non-free images (club logos I asume). He has been warned several times but he blanked his talk page. What to do? --Edokter (Talk) 18:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, well, I deleted all the templates and left a note on his talk page. We'll see what happens from there. ♠PMC♠ 19:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• The images are all being used inappropriately and are redundant anyway, so they will need to be deleted as well. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• I just found what it's all ment for, his own shadow scorecard (already up for AfD). --Edokter (Talk) 19:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

He has a ton of tiny .png files that nobody has done anything with. I can't even make out what they are. Corvus cornix 02:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

username question

username redacted (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)

He's long since been dealt with, so I'm not bringing to this to anyone's attention for a specific reason, I just want to ask why, in the creation of account names, this site doesn't institute some form of name-censor so that people can't create names like these...? HalfShadow 19:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi HalfShadow. Answer to your question - it does. WP:UFA is the place to go to report this kind of offensive username. Thanks ! Pedro |  Chat  19:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's after the fact, and I wasn't actually reporting him, I was using him as an example. I was just wondering why the system doesn't go 'hey there's a bad word here, that's not allowed'. Masamage understood what I was asking, though, so... HalfShadow 19:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It can't be done from the technical side, because they could just take out all the spaces and then we wouldn't be able to detect it anymore. And you can't just tell it to disallow names that have "twat" anywhere in them, because then it wouldn't allow, say, "Sweetwater". --Masamage ♫ 19:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wristwatch. Until(1 == 2) 19:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Twat is on the bot blacklist, anyone with twat in their name should be reported at WP:AIV. The list is here User:HBC NameWatcherBot/Blacklist#List. Obviously if the bot reports someone called Wristwatch, then the admin won't block him, but if it reports user:twatcunt for example, then he can be blocked rapidly, before he can make edits like this for example. Jackaranga 21:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The bot has a whitelist with wristwatch on it, it will not list that word, but will list others. If there are false positives the whitelist can be updated. It also has "twater" to get all water whose type ends in T, "Sweetwater", "Lightwater" etc.... Until(1 == 2) 21:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Disruption arising from a Content Dispute

There is an ongoing content dispute taking place which is arguing over what constitutes a city within the UK or Rngland. The relevant pages are given here: Talk:List of largest urban sub-divisions in England by population, List of largest urban sub-divisions in England by population, and List of largest settlements in England by population‎. User:Earlybird is in dispute with most of the other editors who have taken part in this dispute. So much so good, but now User:EarlyBird has started to change well-established redirections to new pages created by him/herself today whilst the dispute on the talk page I referenced above is still ongoing and not settled. He disputes that my call for him to gain consensus before changing this redirection is reasonable since he seems to be claiming, by quoting the guidelines on consensus, that consensus must involve reasonable editors, and, by implication, he seems to act as if this need not apply in this case. can people advise on what is the best way forward? I have reverted his page redirections, and think his contributions, if they continue in this way manner of making radical changes, would constitute disruption. I have not really contributed to this discussion myself except to correct a minor issue, though my own thoughts are that Earlybird's position is not yet convincing.  DDStretch  (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The page redirected to was concerning urban sub-divisions, for which no source is available defining them as cities. As this constitutes original research I redirected the page to a page entitled "List of the largest cities in England by population", which cites a Government source for these population figures. The redirect from "List of largest settlements in England by population" was also removed as, per the very source cited on the page redirected to, a settlement is limited to an area with a maximum population of 1,500. For this reason one page was factually inaccurate and the other was in breach of Misplaced Pages:No original research and so I feel I was entirely within my rights to make the edits. EarlyBird 19:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I have just removed EarlyBird from WP:AIV as I noticed this discussion here. Please note that the editor who reported EarlyBird is not the one who bought this subject here. LessHeard vanU 20:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources are all given within the Talk page of the relevant article. As detailed on that Talk page, User:EarlyBird is incorrect in his/her assumptions, and has unilaterally taken it upon his/herself to move the article around, replacing it with an incorrect and invalid page. Large cities such as Wolverhampton and Salford have been removed from the page, as User:Earlybird believes that these are not cities. "Settlements" has been used as a heading in order to allow the populations both cities and towns to be used within the article. This is due to the peculiar nature of City Status within the United Kingdom. It should be noted that there have been no voices of support for User:EarlyBird's position on the relevant Talk page. Fingerpuppet 20:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

These sources are original research as they are simply dissection of words in the original source. Nowhere is it explicitly stated that these urban sub-divisions are cities, that is simply something you have read into the words. The page I altered the redirect to, however, explicitly states that the figures given are those for cities within England. As for voices of support, it's not exactly been on there long. If you look at the edit history of the Manchester article, which also cites these sources, you will find a couple of editors in there who accept their validity. EarlyBird 20:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(Unindent) This appears to be a content or procedure dispute, and would suggest that this is moved elsewhere (WP:RfC may help). I would comment to EarlyBird that it would be unwise to continually act against consensus; you will ultimately likely get blocked. It is best to continue to attempt to change the consensus by discussion. LessHeard vanU 20:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that taking it to WP:RfC would now be best. Since I have not been central to the dispute about content, but merely been concerned about the actions taken, I have posted a message about this on Talk:List of largest urban sub-divisions in England by population asking that people take it there. I still think there are issues perhaps relevant to this page concerning the actions that were unilaterally taken.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi LessHeard. Unfortunately, all I seem to get when I do so is "our sources are correct" from the same couple of editors, despite their sources not actually explicitly stating fact. All I can find is their dissection of the words of the Office for National Statistics, who as far as I can see have no official definition of a city. EarlyBird 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

There are two issues here: the first is the content of the dispute. That was not the issue I was concentrating on here. The second issue is. That is the changing of content unilaterally when it is still the subject of ongoing discussion in the talk pages. The further actions are also relevant (details given by fingerpuppet on the above listed talk page), which might be instances of disruption to prove a WP:POINT.  DDStretch  (talk) 20:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

To EarlyBird; this is why I suggest RfC, to see if any uninvolved/impartial editors can help the two opposing viewpoints reach some type of understanding. Only when there is an agreed course, which one or more editors do not adhere to, should this matter return here. My (hopefully last) comment is that if either side is not willing to participate in a RfC then it is possible that their position is not that strong. LessHeard vanU 20:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. It is very difficult to assume good faith when an editor creates several blank articles that were people not to assume good faith, could be construed as attempts to prevent the status quo being restored prior to any agreed changes. Fingerpuppet 20:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The edits were not to remove status quo. I removed the redirect because, in my opinion, it breached Misplaced Pages policy on no original research. As it was reverted I have left it in it's current state and put in a request for deletion for this reason, citing the ONS source which explicitly defines what a settlement is. As for the "several blank articles", would you care to give examples of the others? EarlyBird 20:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The request for removal was posted at 20:09. This was after the first message was posted in this section and after User:EarlyBird posted his first message in response to my initial message on here. I consider this to be highly inadvisable, and think that if the matter did not fit well on this page, it does so now.  DDStretch  (talk) 21:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If by that you mean that my request for deletion was somehow linked to your post here and that this makes it an "incident" in some regard, please note that on the I had stated I was creating a request for deletion at 19:45, the same time you posted this at and before you had posted a link to this page. EarlyBird 21:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like also to express my dissatisfaction with the conduct of EarlyBird on the Manchester page where he is attempting to disrupt and push his own POV agenda against concensus. He has been asked to moderate his behaviour by a number of other users, even those that share his own partisan view regarding Manchester. I would ask therefore that the editor in question's behaviour is monitored closely to prevent this disruption esculating. Many thanks 79.73.183.95 01:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation

I've reposted this from above in the hope it'll be seen more quickly. The page 2007/08 Premier League Results was created earlier today by a user who incidentally uploaded a shedload of FU images. The main problem is that the fixture lists of the FA Premier League (and Football League) are copyright and they are quite active in pursuing those who reprint them. (Whether this applies to a US-based website is another question). The article was AFD'd, but given the obvious copyvio I G12'd the article. Another editor is removing the tags claiming that the article isn't a violation (which it obviously is). He's done this twice more, and I can't be bothered getting into an edit war, so can someone just delete the article (it's a snowball close on the AfD anyway)? Thanks. ELIMINATORJR 23:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. --John 23:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Dont forget to close the AfD. And Eliminator, I've explained it before: beside the question of who is right on the copyright issue, anyone may remove a speedy tag, which I did. The next course of action would be to take it to AfD, where it already was. You were not entitled to replace it. --Edokter (Talk) 23:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think in such a copyright case I had a very good case for bending the rules and putting the tag back. It might have been a number of days until the AfD case was closed, during which the copyright violation remained on Misplaced Pages. ELIMINATORJR 23:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agreed, obviously. Policy, especially copyright policy, trumps process every time. --John 23:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think one can copyright facts in the U.S. I'm not advocating that Misplaced Pages goad a financially well-off organization such as the Premier League into legal action but if this wasn't a copyright violation then let's not label it as such. --ElKevbo 00:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

While I don't think the article belonged here (Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper), I have to agree with ElKevbo. You can't copyright facts. Though I'd be interested in knowing the Premier League's rationale for copyrighting its schedule. Blueboy96 00:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It would certainly have been a copyvio in the UK (or at least the Football League would have claimed). It's a long and convoluted story, but the Premier League / Football League have had websites taken down by their ISPs in the UK. For an entertaining email exchange between a football website and the League's agents, read this page. Still, it's a moot point as the page clearly violated WP:NOT anyway. ELIMINATORJR 00:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

If British courts are anything like American courts, such a claim would have no valitity. It has long since been established in North America that sports statistics cannot be copyrighted. Though, of course, I doubt Misplaced Pages has any interest in testing the legality of the Premier League's claims. Resolute 06:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't a good article anyway. Misplaced Pages is not a sports results service. --John 08:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Long term POV editor

User:68.48.240.144 and User:Middim13 is a long term POV vandal convinced that Electric Boat is in some kind of conspiracy against his ancestry (see here). I have tried to reason with him and I have been struggling with finding ways to warn him because his edits are not vandalism per se, and he quotes dead tree publications to back him up (even though DANFS, which is the reliable source on US Naval history, says he's wrong). But now he's moved on to blatant racism in his edits. Any thoughts? -N 00:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The anti-semitism appears in the edit summary rather than the article - replacing the disputed founder with the location where founded is not racism. I think a warning about appropriate language regarding race/religion should suffice for now (unless there are other instances?) I note there are references provided; do they back up the editors claim? Remember, as long as the source is reliable it can be used - as can any reliable source stating the opposite. I hope this helps. LessHeard vanU 00:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Problematic comments

I never know how to react to these sorts of comments, but perhaps someone else has some idea. Tewfik 02:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Blocking comes to mind. There is a substantial blocklog, howeve most seems related to sockpuppetry. I have asked him to refrain from further comments of this nature.Proabivouac 02:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The warning you just gave is appropriate. We also have templatized warnings against personal attacks like {{subst:uw-npa2}}. If nothing else, one can modify a templatized warning and paste that onto someone's talk page. The most effective way is to ignore it and not escalate the situation, which is often quite difficult. Previous blocks were for sockpuppetry, so a block for personal attacks isn't appropriate unless there were prior warnings.--Chaser - T 02:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree.Proabivouac 06:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Negroid Caucasoid Gorilla Comparison.jpg

Isn't this image blatantly racist. Image:Negroid Caucasoid Gorilla Comparison.jpg Manikongo 03:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked the user. He has very few contributions, and the majority of the major edits are controversial and of a racist nature. -Wafulz 03:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

My appreciation Manikongo 03:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That picture disappeared before I saw it, but I wonder what the "caucasoid" part looked like? Maybe a fine example of superior caucasian genetics, such as the chinless (and spineless) Prince Charles. Meow! Baseball Bugs 03:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This coming from someone who enjoys watching men in pyjamas spit chewing tobacco and slap each others arses while playing a variation of rounders? The House of Windsor trembles... ;~) LessHeard vanU 09:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Nordic Crusader blocked

I have blocked Nordic Crusader (talk · contribs) indefinitely. The user shows all signs of being a disruptive edit warrior- in his brief stint here, he has already warred enough on Negroid to have it locked down, and pushes a strong POV masquerading as science. His deleted contributions illustrate that he tries to highlight some sort of deficiencies in a race. When editors disagree with him or revert his changes, he accuses them of not contributing at all, and has been insulting. In one instance, he makes the accusation that another user editing since June 2005 is a vandalism-only single purpose account.. A spade is a spade.-Wafulz 04:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I endorse this block. It was obviously headed in this direction anyway. I also don't like the use of pseudoscience to promote any agenda.--Jersey Devil 10:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Multiple unconstructive edits

User:Standardname has added links to Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV to around 100 articles loosely related to psychology/psychiatry(Special:Contributions/Standardname), including articles about former mental hospitals etc. I don't have the patience to revert them all, so I was wondering if an admin rollback tool might be quicker. Thanks in Advance. --Limegreen 03:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Mostly  Done. Some were completely inappropriate, such as linking to those articles from medication, but some may be legitimate. I'll leave a note for the editor. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 03:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Disrpuptive editing by Kmweber

As you will all know, Kmweber has been making extreme violations of WP:POINT, just looking at his contributions you can see he has made several !votes in RfA's within the space of minutes, one time he !voted in two within the space of one minute, solely because of his little phrase: I see self noms as being power hungry. What is proposed we do and would it be acceptable to strike out all of his comments as he is clearly not even taking the time to review the user. Rlest 09:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how I am doing anything "disruptive". Making a point? Certainly. Disrupting Misplaced Pages to do it? Hardly. What I'm doing hardly creates extra work for others. If you wish to engage me, by all means--although I have already addressed all questions that are being brought up elsewhere. If you just don't like it, you can easily ignore it. Kurt Weber 13:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

As a former bureaucrat, I will say it is very annoying when people vote "oppose" for spurious reasons (like "user has less than 10000 edits", "user has no featured articles", "user is a self-nom"). In some extreme cases, what should be a clear-cut 50 support 10 oppose RFA becomes a contested 50 support 20 oppose (no specific examples, just saying). ugen64 13:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Hardly, you are trolling see WP:AAAD, maybe you should read that then re-consider your comments, you commented on four RfA's within the space of one minute, what are you superman? You simply could not have reviewed all four users contribs in that time, infact you would not have even had time to type the messages out, you just copied and pasted it, I'd support it if you were blocked for trolling, also see the discussion at WT:RFA, — Rlest 14:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

First, time-stamps on the edits are indicative of nothing. It's quite possible to open several pages at once, click the "edit" button, do all the backend work and enter all the changes over the span of several minutes or even hours, and then (assuming no MAJOR edit conflicts) click all the "Save page" buttons sequentially. The time stamps will be very close together, but they are no indication of the actual time spent.

As a point of fact, no, that's not what I'm doing--because I don't need to. It is my belief that the mere fact that someone has chosen to self-nominate himself for adminship is sufficient reason in and of itself to oppose him, no matter what else he may have going for him. I do hope that I'm wrong--but it's not a risk I'm willing to take. I fail to see how you can so flippantly label my genuine contributions as "trolling" and "disruption". Kurt Weber 14:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Also: I've read AAAD. Those who endorse that essay are certainly entitled to think that my arguments are invalid. I'm entitled to reject that. If they want to ignore them, that is their prerogative. Kurt Weber 14:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well lots of the people at WT:RFA agree its disrutive, if you would take the time to actually review the user, lots of users self nom because they do not want to draw loads of attention to themselves with loads of co-noms. — Rlest 14:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) It appears that Kmweber (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is editing across multiple RFA's to the end of WP:POINT. The editor inserts "Oppose — I view self-noms as prima facie evidence of power-hunger." into what appears to be all self nominations. The editor has received multiple requests for explanation on RFA's and multiple requests to stop on user talk. These edits appear disruptive to prove a point. Thanks, Navou 15:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, they're certainly being done to prove a point--but they're hardly disruptive. I have responded to requests for explanation several times already; understandably, I get tired of answering the same questions over and over again--especially when oftentimes they're ignored or ridiculed. Kurt Weber 16:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

One would think that you'd eventually start providing more of an explanation in the oppose comment to spare yourself the questions. I'm sure you realize how people see the comments: blunt and ignorant of the users' other contribs. In light of that, you can't expect people to not question you. Leebo /C 16:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

(Copied from this page)I find this kind of attitude very troubling. What if someone decided to oppose every RFA by an American because they thought there are too many American admins already? Or every RFA by someone who identifies with a religion because they thought it made them unable to have a NPOV? I know it's a wild idea, but maybe applicants for sysop should be judged on an individual basis. (Additional) And I think if becomes the deciding vote on a RFA, it certaily is disrupting Misplaced Pages CitiCat 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

User:9shaun

User:9shaun has been uploading like crazy, tagging them with {{GFDL-self}} but it is very highly doubtful the s/he created those photos. --Howard the Duck 09:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

All of his uploads are of Philippines related things or people, leaving the possibility he's a professional photographer based there. Although I guess it's also possible he found the website of such a person and copy pasted them onto here. Disappointingly though, his edit history would show he pays no attention to warnings about copyrights, or at least chooses never to respond to them. (just providing a little more information). Someguy1221 09:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No way. Look at the pictures. Some are cropped others are not. Of the ones that are not cropped, they are different sizes! many have a colour casts on them, but the colour casts are different on different photographs. Most of the photographs do not look professional (one has aa very over exposed sky for instance). He's lying about the GFDL self. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 09:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, a...um...amateur Filippino photographer ;-) (or stealer thereof) Someguy1221 09:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

So what's the solution on this? Anyone? --Howard the Duck 09:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well the first step it to talk to him. I shall try doing that now. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 10:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What if he doesn't respond in time? --Howard the Duck 16:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Is removal of comment justified

A user left a WP:CIV, WP:AGF, and probably WP:NPA violating comment on a Talk page. I emended the comment to replace the problematic part with a diff, so that anyone interested could see the whole comment. The user in question had since commented on the page and done nothing, but an experienced editor and two less experienced editors have four times () restored the disruptive comment. While WP:Talk says there is some controversy regarding emendation, it seems to be in cases where alterations to the wording of the text are made. Was my initial action wrong? Tewfik 09:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The comment would seem more telling of the existence of a content dispute than anything else. In my own opinion, a reply right below him to assume good faith would be enough. Someguy1221 09:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There absolutely is a broad content dispute involving many editors, but the comment is coming from an experienced editor. Isn't there agreements that such edits are unproductive? I thought that response to that sort of comment is that last action one should take... Tewfik 09:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This comment is uncivil and unproductive and must be removed. The editor who made it must be at least warned not to make such comments again. Beit Or 10:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm one of the editors who reverted Tewfik's removal of another user's comment from an article talk page (and hence should probably have been notified as a matter of courtesy that he'd posted here about this. But never mind). The issue here is two-fold - were the original comments in breach of any policy or guidelines? And if they were, what is the correct response? The first issue is not clear-cut, although I can see how they might be against WP:AGF. However - even if that is accepted - the words used are not offensive or abusive and it is clearly an overreaction, and in turn a breach of guidelines to remove them. The presumption in WP:Talk is that users should not remove or edit the comments of other users from article talk pages. You see borderline comments like this pretty much every day on talk pages, and I was utterly bemused as to why Tewfik had deleted them when I actually dug up the original words. I had been expecting to see something genuinely offensive or personal (not least because, again, you see comments of that sort on talk pages pretty often as well). --Nickhh 11:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Pigsonthewing

This user seems to think that just because he has been editing for a while he is better than anybody else. He started by removing parts of my comments on a Talk page here: so I restored them and changed the wording to satisfy his needs yet he still persued with demanding I "watch my tone" as he so often does. So I placed the correct warning on his talk page here: he promtly deleted them calling them childish refering to them as a welcome warning claiming he is above them. I then replaced the warning here: with an added warning explaining why I was giving him a warning. Of course he decided he is too good for that and delted it straight away following with a "mind your tone" message again on my talk page and whenever I remove his comments off my page it is the worst thing in the world and he restores them. Please will you try and sort this user out as he and many others on the Second city of the United Kingdom article are constantly pushing their bias POV geared to Birmingham and as I am one of the only users editing for Manchester to provide balance I feel the brunt of their bullying. I have also been blocked for 48 hours over that article and now I have become a suspected sockpuppeter which is just daft. Anyway please can you help me so every edit I make is not reverted straight away. Thank you. XAndreWx 10:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing is already up before ArbCom (again) for the last ruckus he caused at ANI (amongst many other things). Here we go again... Under the terms of his last ArbCom, he is limited to one revert per page per week on pain of blocking. --Folantin 10:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Even so XAndreWx made an inflammatroy remark and Pigsonthewing was right to tone it dowm. Adding templates to established users pages is rude and unhelpful. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 10:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I see that Folantin once again prefers ad hominem over dealing with the issue at hand. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 11:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason I've asked XAndreWx to mind (not "watch") his tone, on more than one occasion, is that he repeatedly makes inappropriate and rude edits. In one recent case, he described a small group of fellow editors as "yobs". Others have included describing people whose edits he dislikes as vandals, and their edits as "stupid vandalism". Even his mentor has dropped him because of his editing style. I don't recall ever reinstating my comments to his talk page once he's deleted them; perhaps he can provide some evidence of me doing so? His accusation of PoV pushing is unfouned and is further evidence of his problematic behaviour. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 11:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Gross incivility and personal attacks by Cerejota

'I swing between exasperation and pity with you: on one hand I have the nagging suspicion you are a troll hell-bent on bothering people, on the other hand just someone who cannot understand English.' Please ask this user to cut out the personal attacks, this is very offensive. I don't see why violations of WP:NPA should be allowed here Bleh999 11:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The correct thing for you to do is state there that you find his comments offensive and ask him to modify them. There are plenty of admins on the admin noticeboard, no need to come here too. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 11:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The user has been asked to stop personal attacks before on his talk page, I don't see how you can respond to comments like his without making personal attacks in response, and I would rather not do that Bleh999 11:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It's easy "Dear Cerejota. I find the above comment upsetting. Would you please remove it." would do the job. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 12:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There is already a thread here Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#I_have_a_question. Please do not forum shop. Thanks!--Cerejota 12:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Theresa Knott: I already apologized in the correct thread, please close this one. Thanks!--Cerejota 12:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

User:59.91.253.157

59.91.253.157 (talk · contribs) (suspected sockpuppet of Dbachmann (talk · contribs) is blanking parts of talk pages. //

• very likely. Dbachmann flew to New Delhi yesterday from Mumbai. I have heard that he went there to contract an underworld don to get rid of Liftarn 59.91.253.1 13:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

WAS 4.250 personal attack Talk:Factory farming

WAS 4.250

Background:

There is currently an unproductive slow edit war between editors (One of them is an admin, User:SlimVirgin). Numerous attempts at mediation have failed because unwillingness of editors to go into mediation. Frequently the page degenerates into "personal attack/no personal attack please" discourses. In general I have kept away from them, but recently it has reached intolerable levels, at least for me.

The situation at hand:

I removed a {{Disputeabout}} tag (it contained the definitions of terms) from the article, and explained the reasons why in the talk page and edit summary: there is no dispute, as it was conclusively proven that the term "factory farming" is the only viable one. Please do not disrupt wikipedia to make a point..

WAS 4.250 reverted my talk page explanation of my edit (but not my article edit) with a comment containing a personal attack: revert trolling. we need help. not gas on the fire. In the process, he also removed other previous contributions (all related to edits) to the talk page, and my placing of a {{Round In Circles}} tag. This is clearly unacceptable behavior.

I reverted the talk page with a comment: Do not remove legitimate post by other contributors, if you do it again I will consider it vandalism. Also WP:NPA I am not a troll, and to suggest this is beyond the pale., and repeatedly asked for an apology ,. The user has since done many edits between my requests , but has not apologized.

Perhaps the user feels that there is nothing to apologize about. However, I disagree.

So I would like a neutral admin to intervene, and ask him to stop personal attacks and apologize.

Or explain to me why I am wrong in asking for an apology and thinking there was a personal attack.

I am not following mediation procedure because mediation has been impossible so far.

Thanks!--Cerejota 11:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a content dispute, not a personal attack. Also, where is the link to the "failed" mediation case? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 13:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Eloghlu

I was Eloghlu and blocked for stupid reason by someone, saying it was "SPA" & other things like that. This is all untrue. Please unblock me. Eloghlu2 12:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops, you should have read WP:SOCK before writing that. I think if you create a new account after a while and don't mention your old one and abide by the policies, nobody should mind. Having seen this before though, I would say your second account will probably be blocked again for sock puppetry. You can use {{unblock}} on your talk page if you want someone to review your block normally. Jackaranga 16:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Review of block

After being blocked the admin in question, Jersey Devil (talk · contribs · email), referred me here since he sees no problem and no need to explain his actions. Therefore I invite the community to comment on whether the block was inappropriate.

Background:

1. While editing Iraq Resolution I met GATXER (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who was only contributing to wikipedia by removing sourced material from this article. After this editor refused to debate the matter and preferred to edit war I filed a report at 3RR which resulted in him being warned to stop. I also started mediation and here. Fortunately the matter was quickly settled by the mediator.
2. Part of the above was violating WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Again I asked outside help, which resulted in this user being explained his action were inappropriate, which he admitted an he promised to change.
3. For some mysterious reason this user again started edit warring on the article which I again opposed. Blocking admin Jersey Devil agreed with my position that GATXER was editing against consensus and reverted the disruptive edit by GATXER (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) saying Rv, discussed on talk page only one user takes issue with article see WP:CONSENSUS. He asked another admin to look into this user's conduct who for that reason protected the page.
4. In response to this GATXER still did not start debating but followed me to Movement to impeach George W. Bush and continued what by now I consider constitutes WP:DE and WP:TE. Although I agree with WP:AGF the above does not describe an editor who is really interested in being a valuable contributor. Most notably his description of other editors is troubling as is his removal of warnings from his talk page misleading another admin into thinking he is an unsuspecting innocent bystander.
5. In light of the above and persistent belligerent language I asked a third party to review his behaviour.
6. Then on July 17, 2007 at 00:07h I was blocked for one edit I made 17 hours before at 07:41, July 16, 2007. The reason given was Revert warring on Movement to impeach George W. Bush and Iraq Resolution; user his history of revert wars http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Nescio.

My request is to remove this from my block log because this a not what happened. I was not revert warring, I was undoing disruptive edits by GATXER, as JD himself did, while at the same time seeking outside help (3RR, mediation, et cetera). To those insisting this is merely an edit conflict please be aware the blocking admin himself admits the user was being disruptive, this user keeps violating WP:NPA, followed me arounds WP when his article got protected and to this date has not made one single effort at discussing his edits. Please see his contributions. Since the main argument is my block history I want this block removed. Admins are not aware that my only blocks were related to two pernicious editors (Merecat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Zer0faults (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) who have been permabanned and that I since then learned and changed my editing style. The fact this admin ignores my attempts at WP:DR and the fact he ignores his own reverting GATXER using the same rationale as I did is disturbing. Nomen Nescio 12:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• You're lucky it was only a 10 hour block. Your block log is rather interesting; it's rare for an edit warrior to be given so much slack (in terms of short blocks). --jpgordon 15:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Underage nonnude pics w/o model releases

I'm copying this from User talk:Jimbo because it's a potentially serious issue:

...you're not the Help Desk, but this issue seemed to be a more nuanced interpretation of policy than was appropriate for that forum. Awhile back, I did a big cleanup job on non-nude photography, and one of my final actions was to remove this image from the article. It seemed to me that it is uncertain (to say the least) whether these girls are adults. While I'm whole-heartedly in support of WP:NOT#CENSORED, sexually suggestive images of minors seems to cross the ethical line. What is your opinion on the possibility of deleting the image? All the best, VanTucky 22:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

From the user talk page history, it looks like the uploader has a string of deleted copyvio images, and if you search on his claimed name, it looks like he's being given credit for Misplaced Pages photos that we don't have anymore. And that there is only one non-wikipedia-related ghit on his name. He's only contributed once this year. He was asked back in February to present a model release from a parent or guardian, and has so far not done so, even though he edited in April. I think both those images should be deleted. BenB4 12:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Misuse of administrator powers by user:Jersey Devil

There is much controversy regarding the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. During the last two months there have been many edits. Sometimes that debate had been heated but generally constructive. As a result the unsourced material has been removed and much new sourced information has been added, adding to the views of both sides. Several potential BLP problems has been fixed, with sources added and clarified regarding unsourced claims that persons have attended the school or institute. The article has been stable for several days.

Today user:Jersey Devil has reverted back to a version almost 2 months old, restoring all the previous problems, claiming that there is an edit war despite that there has been no reverts during the last 5 days. Despite thus becoming an involved editor, he then threatened to use his administrator power and block other editors for a month.Ultramarine 13:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That is not an abuse of admin powers. Reach a consensus, then edit the article and you will be fine. Until(1 == 2) 14:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Threatening to block for a month when there was no reverts for 5 days, and after becoming involved by reverting to a 2 months old verion without first discussing this or reaching a consensus, seems to be at least a threat of abuse.Ultramarine 14:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just a heads-up that if the edit war continues after Jersey Devil changed the page to a less controversial version, you'll be blocked. Read WP:3RR. Shadow1 (talk) 14:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

He made no explanation at all for why his version is supposed to be better. There were never any 3RR violation.Ultramarine 14:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The block threat is about your not edit warring anymore. When an admin reverts in an edit war, some people always call it "the wrong version", but that does not mean he is involved. Using one's admin powers to force users to discuss changes instead of revert warring is not an abuse of power. He is not forcing you to have his version, but forcing you to follow our policies regarding consensus based editing. Until(1 == 2) 14:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Since he made no attempt at all to explain why his prefered version is better, how can we discuss his changes?Ultramarine 14:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

None of the editors involved in the article had agreed on his 2 months old version, which as noted has many problems. All the involved editors had agreed on removing unsourced material and adding new sourced, so why restore this very old version?Ultramarine 14:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, not an administrative issue. You should be asking these questions on the article talk page, not here. Until(1 == 2) 14:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the content of the article is a content dispute. But reverting an article that had been stable for 5 days to a 2 monts old version no other editor involved in the article wants without explanation and then threatening to block for a month if there are further reverts, in effect locking the article to the version prefered by the administrator, is using the administrator power to control the contents of the article.Ultramarine 15:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said, the threat was against revert warring, not reverts. I suggest proposing a change on the talk page and waiting a day, and go from there. I cannot really say much else without repeating myself again, which I would rather not do. Until(1 == 2) 15:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

So why did he not just simply make this warning instead of reverting a stable article to a 2 months old version? I have had conflicts with Jersey Devil due to content disputes in other articles. It seems to me that he is using his administrative power in a personal conflict with me. After this threat, any edit restoring some of the sourced information or correcting the current errors, could lead to a block for a month.Ultramarine 15:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Jersey Devil should not have protected an article he had previously edits, especially considering there was no request for protection on the article. This by itself could be excused, had he not reverted the version and wiped out Ultramarine's edits before he protected it. This smacks of abuse of administrative powers. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

More Epeefleche/Tecmobowl stuff

Moved from above confusing thread —Wknight94 (talk) 14:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

For the record

Questions:

• What is happening with the numerous edits Epeefleche racked up before this thread stopped him? Striking through Tecmo's comments, undoing his edits blindly? Have they been mostly undone? Are editors just undoing them as they find them?
  • This is getting tiresome. Please give us diffs for any of Epeefleche's edits you find objectionable. This call for a global scan of his edits is going to fall on deaf ears, no doubt. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I find any one that provides no edit summary, or an edit summary saying per WP:BAN--when WP:BAN does not apply to the removal of pre-ban edits objectionable. I, and I can't imagine any other reader particularly wants to go through and look at the original reason the edit was done and then through months of what happened since to see if consensus has changed etc. If he reverts again and provides a content-reason and doesn't use Tecmo's ban to pressure people, I'm out--these aren't articles I edit. I was asking what HAD been done and was being done--I wasn't calling for anything. Someone earlier had said that they thought all of the edits were taken care of, but all of the ones I've been to I haven't seen anything. I'm not going to spend time scanning, but I'll revert as I find them--especially the ones I reported etc. If everything had been taken care of, perhaps there was a reason why those edits were left unreverted, I don't know. I was asking. I have no idea to what extent any reversion has been done, article, talk page, etc. Miss Mondegreen talk  15:12, July 22 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, please do feel free to revert as you come across them. Use the talk page(s) if necessary, etc. This really needs to be downshifted into a regular dispute, i.e. off this noticeboard. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Deleting banned user's comments if they continue to edit post ban is ok/requried under WP:BAN. But I don't think that it's unreasonable to ask that a link be provided to the diff of the removal, particularly for cases when the comment is in the middle of a conversation--reading a discussion is hard with chunks missing. I realize that there are two competing interests here, but this seems like a reasonable compromise. Is there any opinion or precedent about providing a link so that users can read the discussion--can know that comments were removed (to remove them without any sign is really bad) and can read the old version of the discussion without spending an immense amount of time figuring things out and finding it?
  • Where do you find this causing a problem. It's time to get specific. As for compromise, there is room for little for post-ban people. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I had above, but again...for example, the Long Levi comments on Talk:Hank Aaron, which Epeefleche hasn't gotten around to deleting yet. The part where Epeefleche and Tecmo are arguing would have to go in it's entirety or be nonsensical, and even the latter comment by Tecmo, he's explaining an edit that he made. This comment is not only in the middle of a section, but there's a latter section on the page dealing with the same issues (those Long Levi comments have not been removed btw), and so reading the page, I'm seeing the editor's latter comments not knowing that he commented on the issue already earlier on the page. Epeefleche has gone through his comments and removed everything that did not have a direct reply to it, necessary or not. Indeed, other editors have reverted Epeefleche--in a few cases there is content reason for it to be done, though generally comments or attempted votes by sockpuppets are struck though, not altogether deleted, especially if they've already been around for a while. Here, another editor had already struck through Tecmo's comment to a move section, Epeefleche decided that that wasn't good enough and deleted the comment anyway. We should be able to strike a balance--fully uphold both ends of WP:BAN (making it clear that the user is banned and not using the ban in order to harass the user) and we should be able to keep talk pages as readable as possible. This shouldn't be this difficult. Miss Mondegreen talk  15:12, July 22 2007 (UTC)
      • You're free to repair any damage at the Aaron talk page if you feel it should be. If you'd like assistance, ask at the talk page there. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments:

• Wknight94--I'm aware that if Epeefleche actually has an issue, he can provide a legitimate edit summary or talk page comment and if consensus goes his way, no problem. But an edit summary of "reverting per WP:BAN" (or something similar), is not content related and it prevents content related discussion. We're talking about a wide ranging number of edits that go almost a year back (at the least), some of which are not only abusing the use of WP:BAN, but going against prior consensus--more complicated edits were discussed on talk pages, etc. Consensus can change, but the stamp of WP:BAN doesn't equal changed consensus. Tecmo himself shouldn't even be raised as an issue in possible future content debates regarding material he may have handled/produced. It's the edit not the editor that matters for these edits.
  • The edit summaries were unfortunate, this is true. In my brief scan, I found several that were misleading. Not much can be done at this point. Move along. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
    • There was no need to reply or to tell me to move on--I was simply saying, as there seemed to be confusion above, that I have no problem and never had with Epeefleche reverting anyone on content related grounds. However, this seemed to be, all along a case of more than just "unfortunate edit summaries". At any rate, he can always revert back with a proper explanation. He could even save us the trouble and revert himself and then revert back with a content explanation. Miss Mondegreen talk  15:12, July 22 2007 (UTC)
      • This is why I recommended to move on. There is no point asking Epeefleche to revert himself and then revert back just to provide a proper edit summary. Bad edit summaries happen all the time by everyone, including me. If you have a specific edit or two that you'd like clarified, then ask Epeefleche. This is the admin noticeboard and no more admin intervention is necessary here. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• For the record--I have not received anything from Tecmo, and I doubt I will. Even if he happens to be watching this--despite all claims about policy, fighting other people's battles etc, for Tecmo to contact someone would require him to trust the person to handle it, to trust Misplaced Pages consensus after that--it would require trusting someone else to fight his battles--something he wasn't good at, something that led to his banning. Miss Mondegreen talk  12:39, July 22 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay, good to know. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Were articles actually deleted?

Baseball Bugs made a reference to articles being nominated for deletion and provided a link to the contributions of a new sockpuppet (already banned). Tecmo via IP accused Epeefleche of attempting to CSD two Negro League articles. I've been through a bunch of Epeefleche's contributions (from before the accusation), but I can't find those edits. Did the CSDs actually go through? Did Epeefleche succeed in deleting articles created by Tecmo pre-ban? Can admin powers figure this out and handle this part? Because deleted articles don't leave much of a trail--except of course people complaining and people complaining about the people complaining. Miss Mondegreen talk  13:57, July 22 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see where Epeefleche successfully called for three articles to be deleted. They were all legitimate deletions per WP:CSD#G5 (i.e., post-ban created by Long Levi) and will stay deleted. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

So those were post ban? Ok. Miss Mondegreen talk  15:12, July 22 2007 (UTC)

65.102.185.159 IP sock of perm banned user Labyrinth13

65.102.185.159 (talk · contribs) is a sock IP of Labyrinth13 (talk · contribs), who was permanently banned for gross incivility. This diff is the anon attempting to re-add a non-Misplaced Pages work of Labyrinth13. He has also vandalized my user page twice, as well as United States Army Basic Training, here and here. Please take action against this obvious attempt to circumvent a permanent ban. Parsecboy 15:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT editing.

(comment moved to appropriate section) Navou 15:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This is being discussed above and at WT:RFA. Go there, people.--Chaser - T 15:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Clarin

There seems to be a rather big dispute between user Clarin and Nakazima. I don't know who is right, nor do I care, but i do notice that whereas Nakazima appears to make useful edits in between, Clarin seems to be solely undo'ing the changes of Nakazima without doing anything else... A stir 'warning' to the both of them may be in place, perhaps with a cooldown block for Clarin or something. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Socks

This user was banned http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Eloghlu and he is back with this account http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Eloghlu2

User:BMF81 continually inserting joke about anally raping a child on Talk:Laughter

User:BMF81's "joke" here about how he'd laugh if the child in the photo on Laughter is anally raped is a blockable offense, and plain sick. I warned him that such a profane statement is objectionable and blockable here, to which he replied on my page that if I can't take a joke then I shouldn't edit an encyclopedia. Then he reinserted the "joke" about anally raping the child here. This is pretty objectionable, and I think a 24 hour block is more than warranted. --David Shankbone 16:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Only 24 hours? I would consider a much longer block for that shit. Until(1 == 2) 16:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

"Objectionable"? That's mighty euphemistic. Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has blocked for 24 hours. I'm wary of blocking established contributors but this pushes it way, way over the line. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 16:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

24 hour block implemented. If anyone wants to extend the block, I have no objection. (I'm not on continually, but I'll attempt to monitor this section drom time to time.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What has happened to Misplaced Pages? Sex and other stuff in articles of Presidential hopefuls?

Rudy Giuliani's article has extensive stuff about his sex life and that he can't get an erection. Other articles, Democrat and Republican, either sound like subtle attack pieces or have positive fluff in them. And a small group of very hostile editors in some of those talk pages.

What we need to do is sit down and redo all the presidential hopeful articles and model them equally. The same order of the sections. Keep the articles like neutral biographies. I don't want to do it because I'm not stupid and don't want to be a lightning rod. JonnyLate 16:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome and encouraged to remove any negative unsourced information about living people from articles on sight. Until(1 == 2) 16:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It has a reference (don't know if it's accurate). Look! Italiavivi just attacked me saying I haven't edited enough. He seems to support mention of erections in the article. I don't want to fight with him but it seems like he's a regular editor with lack of objectivity. That's dangerous for wikipedia having that kind of editor. Who in the (expletive) would favor including erectile information in an encyclopiedia?JonnyLate 16:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this issue really need administrator attention? We're not moderators - this is better dealt with at the relevant article pages. Natalie 16:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

In less than 5 minutes, people there have already attacked me (they favor erection mention, I think). Some administrator needs to post in the article something like "We will now have order." Otherwise, the erection mongers win. Or, you can block those that mention erection. This is far worse than vandal who insert childish stuff. This is either very crafty and well planned vandalism or even campaign tactics. Aren't administrators supposed to fight vandalism? JonnyLate 16:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Everyone is supposed to fight vandalism. Keep the content disputes on the article talk pages, not here; this is for things that require administrator intervention. --jpgordon 16:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you looked into dispute resolution? I just wanted to say that working the phrase "erection mongers" into a sentence is very impressive and funny. Until(1 == 2) 16:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not going to be the lawyer for the case "Wikipedians against mention of erections versus Wikipedians for erections". So the erection vandals win. I will not waste my time fighting. If nobody cares, fine with me. I just thought a little publically stated interest by an administrator would help fight this form of vandalism. JonnyLate 17:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

But that is just the thing, content disputes are not vandalism. It is not that we don't care, it is that admins have no special authority in content disputes. Until(1 == 2) 17:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Administrators can block people. They do have special authority. Forget it, see how vandals win. I quit. I'm logging off and turning off the computer for today.JonnyLate 17:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• While this is a content dispute, I think it behooves us all to try to enforce a fair and consistent treatment of material throughout all of the Presidential hopeful articles and their forks. These are going to be very high profile articles in the coming year, and will all be under attack from POV warriors. Misplaced Pages doesn't need more bad press, or a person in the White House who feels he or she has been maligned on Misplaced Pages. - Crockspot 17:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

  I have to agree, this is not a place to play politics, perhaps during election season all bio's should be regulated and made routine, perhaps now on. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Growing list of Panairjdde socks to be blocked..

We need some admin(s) to stop by (and watch) User_talk:Dppowell/PPP#Socks_yet_to_be_blocked to block open User:Panairjdde socks. --Palffy 17:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Issue with article adoption

I'm having problems with Talk:U.S. Route 50. I decided to add my name to the U.S. roads adoption template. I was told that "In order to officially adopt an article, you must list it first.", so I decided to use template:maintained instead, which doesn't have any bureaucratic requirements. I have been reverted by several users, claiming a violation of WP:POINT. Please assist. --NE2 17:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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