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The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. The principals in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris are expected to convert the article from its present state based on original research and BK publications to an article containing verifiable information based on reliable third party sources. After a suitable grace period, the state of the article may be evaluated on the motion of any member of the Arbitration Committee and further remedies applied to those editors who continue to edit in an inappropriate manner. Any user may request review by members of the Arbitration Committee. Posted by Srikeit for the Arbitration committee. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris.

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Archived talk page

There haven't been any posts since early June so I thought now would be a good time to archive old discussions. Hope that's OK with everyone. Regards Bksimonb 06:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Only archive it when it is necessary due to its size.PEACETalkAbout 06:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there any debate that the talk page wasn't too large?! I just also try to take care with live conversation threads because archiving can be a bit of a conversation-killer (literally;-)) if done without consideration. In the past when there have been live threads I have archived everything else except the conversations that seem to be active since within a week. Regards Bksimonb 04:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Bksimonb for keeping up with this article maintenance. Certainly look forward to seeing further progress... Blessings, avyakt7 19:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Analysis of the article

I have uploaded a marked up version of the article to my userspace, here. I have identified what I am certain are multiple issues with the article as it stands. I would say the majority of the issues are quite clear-cut with maybe a few that need more discussion. I have tagged the main article with the issues I have identified and will start cleaning up the most obvious problems after about two days wait.

Why I created a separate page in userspace? Originally, it was to brief an advocate on what issues I saw in the article, however the advocate has had to take a long Wikibreak and the AMA, it seems, is no more. Also, plastering loads of stuff on the discussion page trying to describe exactly where it is in the article etc is messy and floods the discussion page. I thought a marked up version of the article was a much better way to communicate the reasoning.

I would appreciate discussion to take place here, not on the userspace document, to keep things clear and manageable.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 08:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Bksimonb,

I take it the "red" sections are comments by you, or the mystery person that wrote you. I for one would fervently argue the point on monastic as being truthful and honest and still have other sources which I have yet to add. Personally, I can't think of meeting any practicing BK that said, "My s*x life has improved with Gyan". Yes, there are those that go to class and quickly fall off, those that say they are but are not, those that are "Holiday" BKs and I for one have more respect for those that tell the truth. I have no issues with you as I know you practice the beliefs, but find that skirting around this is simply wrong. Please, have the "Mystery Writer" provide a murli point, or an official edict from Mt. Abu, to add an amendment for non-practicing, non-surrendered BKs and I personally can attest that I will have it framed. For quick reference when needed or posting for others to reference.:-( Need I say more? I will copy the analysis, and get back with my point in bold. Does Barmy=nutty? PEACETalkAbout 00:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi TalkAbout. The comment was more to do with the isolation aspect of a monastic life rather than just celibacy. Do you really think that I'm a monk?

Also, yes, barmy=nutty.Bksimonb 08:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Bksimonb,

First, let me say there is nothing wrong with living like a monk, I fully respect monks. Now, since you asked if I thought you are a monk I will answer. As you know, I don't like to get personal. From a lokik (out here in the non-BK practising world) I would say yes, the life style is/could best be described as monk like. Now, a pretty bird once said, he lived in a palace of of Golden Gates, shinny, beautiful, with all the food it desired and had someone available to look after his needs with only a chirp. One day a child came along and told this pretty bird, "You have a lovely cage made of Gold". My point is, we may be in bliss and want to call it bliss, but the lokik world will still see it as monastic as it fits the definition. So, I would agree with the academics in their honest, description. Another term they banter about is tea totalers but monastic is clearly more descriptive and accurate given the diet, contact (otherwise I would have had you over for a home cooked dinner) and celibacy restrictions. So, I would say you are one "pretty little monastic bird"(I am told a rather "orthodox" one too, very respected too).PEACETalkAbout 20:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

well, well, well...BK Simon, you got a fan! I like that: "pretty little monastic bird," PLMB...however; are birds monastic?

I have a little link as well Some of the requirements to be monastic accordingly are:

Seclusion and Religious vows. As a Bk, i do not remember that is my case. I am a free bird... (pretty or ugly, little or big does not matter; but free)for most the 9 to 5 thing and the 2.5 kids secludes them from enjoying traveling for example or knowing many people, they are secluded in their cubicle/office/ prison. On the other hand, i go where i want and

when i want. So much for seclusion. As far as religious vows, i do not remember making any sort of "promise." Celibacy "restrictions"??

That is only from a "lokik" perspective. From my perspective that is not a restriction. I do not feel is natural to me. It is sort of having the opportunity to go to a disco.

Some will do it and some will not. From the perspective of those who go to the disco; those who do not go are "restricted." From the perspective of those who do not go, those who disco all night long are just senseless.

So, when writing this article whose perspective is being represented? Something to think about... Blessings, avyakt7 18:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC

Hi avyakt7. Long time no see. Welcome back :-) Please remember to correctly indent your responses or indicate "(outdent)" if you feel the indenting has gotten too intense. Regards Bksimonb 06:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi TalkAbout. Yes the lifestyle changes are often components of a monastic lifestyle but usually some kind of social withdrawal is the most key component from my own understand and having read the monasticism article. I can't comment on the first reference (Bartholomeusz, Tessa J.) as I don't have the book although it seems to be associated with the word "renunciate" but the second reference, Mikael Rothstein, refers to just the "inner members" being monastic or semi-monastic, rather than all members. I guess the reason the description jars with some of us BKs is that we strongly support the idea of remaining active in family and society and not just walking off into the jungle, up a mountain or to a monastery somewhere. Those that do live in centres are there to keep the wheels turning rather than specifically to retreat from society. If an academic has concluded that BKs are, in fact, monastic then, yes, that's a significant view, but since it is not a universally held view perhaps it should be mentioned somewhere other than the first paragraph and attributed. Out of interest, what other sources have described the BKs as "monastic"?

Well, I've never been called "Orthodox" before. I've been trying to puzzle what an orthodox BK might be. Old fashioned? Old-school values? Set in ways? Traditional? Anyway, I'll take it as the compliment that I believe it was intended as :-) And, yes, sorry about the dinner, errrm... but at least since you already know about BKs I don't need to invent any excuses! Being tea-total does mean that tea still is a possibility though...

Best regards Bksimonb 20:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the welcoming message, Bksimonb. I will be careful on keeping my indentation in check...like a bit of an "orthodox."... :-) Blessings,

avyakt7 13:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

i looked as far as the first red bit where it talks about the date of birth of lekhraj...........the correct date is referenced in the Om Radhe book.....she is your "Mama" Simon and writing in the late 1930s when lekhraj was still live ,I think she knows better

also if you look in jagdish chander writings in the 70s , he fudges the issue talking about approximate "55 to 60 years of age" for the incarnation of shivbaba . its on page 154 kripalani was aged 54 in 1938

the age of kripalani was given on documents prepared for legal proceedings.........

you see the problems lies in that in the murlis , it says shiva incarnates when the chariot is 60 years old but om radhe and the om mandli folk prove he was younger

kripalani is also how it is spelt then too , but it is not big deal the two ways are interchangeable......its just a problem with the english translation of it

so , yes, we know the BKWSU edits and re-writes the murli and we know that they re-write their history

the problem we have here is that you younger Bks really dont know your own organisations history and are believing in the PR version.....that ignorance should not prejudice the article , you should go back to your seniors and demand the truth you cant expect to drive home the whitewashed version of bk history Green108 15:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's say that I don't know the real birthdate of Lekhraj Khubechand Kirpalani. I want to find that out.

Where shall I go?... To Misplaced Pages?? ... ;-)

Some say "the correct date is referenced in the Om Radhe book" why is that the correct date?

Or a more concise "approximate 55 to 60 years of age for the incarnation of shivbaba."

Then comes another "document" the "Murli." which claims that Kirpalani was 60 when Shivbaba incarnated...So, which document do I believe? and why?

and of course to top things off, "kripalani" is the same guy as "kirpalani" it is just a problem with the translation...(they couldn't get the right place for the 'r')

...but, it is no biggy...and then of course, the real problem being that younger Bks do not know the 'real' history...Does anyone know it? and most importantly, why do i have to believe in what someone says? where is the proof? Even in history the dates change as new evidence comes up and a group of "experts" decides about the "truth." Dates are not set in stone and then we just need to trust historians because there is no one else...it is about trusting the current evidence, knowing that it could change. IMHO, I agree with the red comments (a la Kirpalani) Misplaced Pages is about scholar sources, right? so what Wallis have to say about it? Best Wishes, avyakt7 18:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Green108. I am really sorry that you still appear not to have understood what Misplaced Pages is after this break. Thanks and regards Bksimonb 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

i understand perfectly well what the Bkwsu are trying to use it for simon

with regards kripalani's age , i gave you a page number all you got to look at it . its not "original research" to copy a fact from a book

simon , just one honest question to you.........if you are a member of the Bkwsus core IT PR team , and tucked up nicely with sister jayanti and dadi janki in GCH...........why cant you access these books and documents from within the Bkwsu? what is their response to such a request? there must be others.its a simple question that really deserves a proper answer.........

btw , we all read how dadi janki was not the most stable mind in the world after 30 years of using it for pr.........in the om radhe book she is not even listed amongst the members in 1938 , still they say she was on the managing committee

why cant we depend on the Bkwsu for a single accurate history?Green108 20:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108, you seem to be making some sort of political point here. Perhaps a blog or forum might be a better outlet. I suggest you read WP:OR again very carefully. The above post indicates a lack of understanding in this area. Regards Bksimonb 06:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

i asked an very important, honest question and you ignored it simon

one of the problems we have with you young Bks is that you come along and want to change the article to suit your current PR and you have not even read many of the reference........in short , you dont actually know the real history.......you only know the PR version

have you or can you access these original books and documents from within the Bkwsu? what is sister jayanti's and dadi janki's response to such a request?

it is impossible to enter into a discussion with you if you insist on ignoring them

i made a historical point. the article reflects the reality of the Bkwsu which is they have faked and re-written their history , many younger Bks dont know the truth of it........and consequently reporting of it is mixed.

look, you are a key member of the BKWSU Core Internet PR Team ,aren't you? and riveros some fanatical Bk follower that goes about posting about "the bombs being ready and they are going to be used" on public forums and faking ids to mess with this article..................this isnt PR for western Bks , we are trying to document the BKWSU in the whole

in that analysis of the article you try to discredit the original posters.......in 1949 there was no mention of Shiva, just God Brahma Green108 11:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Your "important" questions are not relevant to Misplaced Pages. If you want to discuss such things why don't you make an appointment visit us in person at GCH. We have already invited Ex-L/244 by email and are patiently awaiting his response. Please do not use Misplaced Pages to pursue an agenda. They just don't need it. Thanks and regards Bksimonb 12:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

this is where you are wrong..............if it is shown that you are refusing to actually read over the references you are criticising and check the citations given then it undercuts your credibility as a neutral contributor

it is utterly relevent to show what the intention of the Bkwsu is with this topic Green108 12:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

You are using primary sources in ways that Misplaced Pages's polices on WP:OR expressly forbid. It seems we are in deadlock here so I will invite a third opinion and start to escalate this. Bksimonb 13:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

i disagree

i am trying to establish trust by giving the Bkwsu internet PR team a chance to be open and honest , to actually engage in discussion rather pull the rug from under other contributors feet

i am asking you a question , can you access these documents from within the Bkwsu and what is the response of the seniors to them because to me you appear to be ignoring them as they dont fit in your organisations aim to re-write this topic along the lines of current pr

that poster , dated 1949 ,clearly states Destruction within one year and as a matter or interest ,why is there no mention of shivbaba only Prajapati God Brahma?

Green108 03:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Monastic

To all: I removed the "or monastic" because the source was one sentence combined with IKSON:"The same appears to be the case with inner members of Brahma Kumaris which, like ISKCON, is a monastic or semi-monastic religious order". The citation that remains is academic, in goes into the area in detail on the Brahma Kumaris and doesn't compare/contrast nor add "appears" which is conjecture with no examples. I have ordered all his books and will look to see if he can prove his conjecture as posted on the website cited. As to the editor that claims he is not celibate and goes on to MT ABU, I guess he tells tall tales to get in or is celibate for six months prior, then falls off his stage. There are those that want to practice according to their beliefs in all religions, but when adjusting the beliefs to suit their life style, I do believe they are called "heretics". I have yet to meet a practicing BK yogi, that is not celibate and is off to the discos on the weekends. Please provide information on how someone can be a semi-yogi! PEACETalkAbout 18:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi TalkAbout. OK Thank you. Do you have the exact words for the "spirit possession" bit because as it stands the into is quite misleading. Imagine reading the article for the first time and reading that these people teach a form of yoga that involves "spirit possession". I'm sure a lot of readers would immediately associate it with something like this! I certainly wouldn't want to meet a Raj Yogi like that at a disco. Maybe that's why I stopped going to discos. It also sounds like spirit possession is part of what you would be taught to do if you chose to learn BK-style Raj Yoga. Scary huh? I realise that Dadi Gulzar is technically "possessed" when the murlis are spoken but that's not "Raj Yoga", that's a particular role she alone is playing. Other trance messengers used to do that too, as noted later in the article, but that system stopped some time ago. Also, it is a custom in India to invoke departed relatives into trance medium priests so in an Indian context it isn't seen as that much of bizarre practice.

Channeling I can live with although it is still associated with bringing messages which is not what regular BKs do (trance messages are fetched while the body is inactive and so nothing is actually being "channeled" in that case).

To make the second para more representative, would you be open to something along the lines of, "It teaches a form of meditation called Raja Yoga (not the classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali) and a study of messages brought via a medium." References aside, (we can easily find academic references to back up the process in a nutshell), do you agree that the sentence could be improved and if so how would you phrase it?

Maybe the editor in question doesn't visit Madhuban as a BK student. There are various spiritual, medical and other forums held there as well as the usual BK meetings.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 19:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Medium

Bksimonb, I think I fixed it, as it reads now, it is very clear that the primary function of the medium is to channel the murlis and information. So, no worries about thishttp://www.fromthebalcony.com/images/2005/exorcism_of_emily_rose_the/emilyrose03.jpg. I also included a section from another book which refers to communication between the living and the dead, but I think this one citation will suffice and no need to over do it.

• "New Religious Movements: challenge and response" Edited by Bryan Wilson (Emeritus Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford) and Jamie Creswell (Director of the Institute of Oriental Philosophy European Centre), Contributors Eileen Barker, James Beckford, Anthony Bradney, Colin Campbell, George Chryssies, Peter Clarke, Paul Heelas, Massimo Introvigne, Lawrence Lilliston, Godeon Melton, Elizabeth Puttick, Gary Sherpherd, Colin Slee, Frank Usarski and Bryan Wilson. Pages 157-158, 1999, ISBN 0-415-20049-0
  • "However, as with sannyasins, Brahma Kumaris women become core members by being fully ‘surrendered’, and their prominence derives from their mediumistic capacities, channeling murlis (sermons) from their dead founder. As a result, ‘their power is veiled…through the device of possession. Women, even when they possess power, cannot be seen to wield it. Hence, the importance of spirit possession where women are the instruments or mouthpieces of a male spirit.”

• Theorising Religion: Classical And Contemporary Debates
  • "John Walliss is a lecturer in Sociology at Liverpool Hope University. He published works on several topics, including millenarianism within the Hindu New Religious Movement, the Brahma Kumaris; ‘fringe archaeology’; relationships between the living and the dead within contemporary Spiritualism."

Bksimonb Qoute: "It teaches a form of meditation called Raja Yoga (not the classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali) and a study of messages brought via a medium."

• How is this:
  • Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU) or Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya is a monastic, renunciateMillenarian new religious movement (NRM) of Indian origin." END QOUTE

Current22:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It teaches a form of meditation called Raja Yoga (not the classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali), involving spirit possession(women are the instruments or mouthpieces of the male spirit) and mediumistic channelling. The murlis (sermons) are received via Dadi Gulzar or Dadiji, currently their main medium.

Please let me know what you think. I will look for the other books as well, but they may be more aligned with Walliss. PEACETalkAbout 22:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

one aspect we also covered in previous discussion was the mediumship or channelling of other spirits such as deceased leaders...this was covered by accepted referenceGreen108 11:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Starting new thread to invite User:Utcursch to comment. Bksimonb 14:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Tag

Did I miss the discussion on the tagging of the article by the BKs? Or was it just a unilateral action again?

I also disagree with Simon. Tagging the article with a huge tag like that is just another ploy on behalf of the BKs to try and devalue and discredit the article as it is.

There was no consensus sought about this. Simon, why did not you just make a template up that says, “The BKWSU doesn’t like this. Its does not fit in with our PR and marketing and it exposes facts we don’t like to tell non-BKs.”?

The problem is, as a leading member of the BKWSU’s “Internet PR Core Team on behalf of the RCOs”, as it is called, your vision is deeply biased. Most people think the article is fine. It is very well researched and referenced.

BTW, just to see how fair and even handed you are, do you think we can we mention the stuff about the Dadi Janki not being the “most stable mind in the World” - as was widely claimed - as one of the controversies? I would say that was a fairly serious abd continous deceit on behalf of the old girl and her followers.

Green108 15:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"Most people think the article is fine." Really? Any proof? Best, avyakt7 18:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108. You are respectfully reminded that Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. The tag is not applied by a vote or consensus but by the simple fact that it does not comply with Misplaced Pages's own policies for reasons which are far from subtle. Thanks and regards Bksimonb 18:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

simon , leave it out.............one post and you are back to your old tricks of trying to personalise things , wind folks up and act like some playground prefect

Green108. Well if I'm the "playground prefect" then I wonder what role you might be playing on the "playground"! I'm sorry if being reminded of some very important Misplaced Pages policies "winds folks up". If you were to drive on the wrong side of the road, keep mounting the kerb and knock over loads of "keep left" signs you might find people reciting the highway code to you a lot too. I'm not sure how you interpret this as "personalising things". To me, "personalising things" involves commenting on the other editors personal affiliations off-Wiki and misrepresenting them in a derogatory manner as per your previous posts.

Regards Bksimonb 07:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

lets discuss which tags would be best where.......imho , really , you have just chosen the biggest broadest possible tag you could find to try and discredit this topic............which is already ridiciulously over referenced for its real world importance .its a question of intention , this does nothing for the readers benefit and will inconveniece people using smaller screens and old pcs

btw , both you Bks still have not answered by other questions about whether you have actually read any of the citations we have offeredGreen108 14:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108. Each point in the tag relates to a problem found in the Article analysis I did. The tag does help the reader in that it warns them that they are reading a misleading article. It would be better to constructively address the problems with the article than to edit war over the tag or market it as some sort of conspiracy, as in, "try and discredit this topic". Perhaps the article is trying to discredit the BKWSU. Using phrases like "discrediting the article" is an indicator of feeling ownership to it. As is reverting just about any valid change that challenges it WP:OWN.

Also yes, I have read the sources. They are primary sources and are therefore unsuitable for drawing conclusions and doing so is considered original research WP:OR. The burden of proof is on the editor who wants to include something in the article to show that it has reliable, secondary sources. Particularly, controversial or novel claims that are different from established facts, especially those coming from reliable secondary sources, need extraordinary proof from a secondary source WP:REDFLAG. Primary sources just don't cut it.

An example of how a primary source is limited is like this, it is acceptable to say something like, "a leaflet, printed in 1988 by xyz org, claims the world is flat" but it is not acceptable to say, "xyz org thought the world was flat in 1988". Also the leaflet would have to have the actual words, "the world is flat", not something that just implies it like, "the radius of the world tends toward infinity".

Regards Bksimonb 15:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Minor edit

i just fixed a small typo made by a new user , the line is not exactly accurate according to gyan.......you know the Bk stuff about nuclear war , natural disasters , the continents sinking and only india being left for krishna to reincarnate in

i am not fussed by it the way it is just if you want accuracy then you want accuracy Green108 20:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Minor Update

Placed template stating a dispute. According to wikipedia custom made templates stating a discussion or/and dispute are valid.The article per say hasn't been changed, thus there is no reason to take the tag off, since it does not affect the article. The cycle started to repeat again, eh? Best, avyakt7 03:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

User green108 reverted article tag. Left a friendly warning in his talk page requesting proof of his statement. Will place template tag again. Best, avyakt7 13:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Riveros11 is a BK follower and member of their IT team

since he was shown in the dispute mentioned at the top of the page to have multiple sockpuppet accounts to try and gain control of the article and have other contributors banned his integrity is in doubt

your collective actions are causing an identical repeat of the previous case

please discuss proposed changes before you make themGreen108 14:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

User Green108: Innocent until proven guilty. Did you know that? You are accusing me innecesarily and tarnishing my integrity. I have not been found guilty of anything, according to wiki rules. That is the game here. I haven't made any changes to the article. The tag in the article is to show any reader that there are some issues with the article which they need to be aware of. Please be reasonable. The proposed changes are here Please read the "red" items and discuss about them here, hopefully with reliable sources to back up your claims. You have broken 3RR. I will not. Simple. Yes, things are repeating.. (it is a good time to review the cycle class...)hope you don't make the same mistakes... Best, avyakt7 16:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Pratibha Patil talks to a Ghost

There has been widespread reporting in the media of this. The Indian president candidate Pratibha Patil has been to the Brahma Kumari headquarters to talk to their "ghost". The ghost apparently backed her campaign.

Should this not be reported here as a media controversy? If others agree, I will present the most reliable references.

I must say. Although I am not a member. I knew a family that lost a son to this group. They encouraged him to give up his studies. He gave them thousands of pounds. When he was in it, you could not talk him. He was very much like these other followers. I think they encourage fanaticism within their followers.

Faithinhumanity 17:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

yes , i agreeGreen108 19:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking forward to seeing reliable sources not references. You know, Mr. Studious Ph.D in Religious Studies said .. so and so... that sort of thing.. reliable sources, Got it? great!!! Best, avyakt7 20:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Faithinhumanity,

As per the consensus here along with plenty of citations as requested:

This has got to be the BEST example of VIP service.:-)PEACETalkAbout 05:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I see this is already covered in the Pratibha Patil article and does not need to be covered here since the controversy is about something Pratibha Patil said, not the BKWSU itself. The BKWSU has had many VIP visitors over the years and the fact that they had another one visit does not merit article space.

This article does not need yet more negative-biased input right now no matter how it is sourced. It has serious WP:UNDUE issues that need to be resolved first. Can we please give that the priority it deserves.

Also, Faithinhumanity, your opinion and claim about the BKWSU is superfluous and sounds bogus. BKs are not taught to exclude their parents. From personal experience I can tell you that I am in regular contact with my parents and enjoy a very good relationship with them. I think you got the wrong group. Maybe you have been reading about cults. Also, I notice that you claimed in previous posts to be a Christian and yet you have only ever contributed to this one article. Why the narrow field of interest if you are neither a BK or an ex-BK? Why are all the additions you propose always negative? You don't have to answer, of coarse, but I am curious to know.

Regards Bksimonb 06:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I partially take back what I said about the Pratibha Patil issue being included. With all due credit to TalkAbout, it actually been presented in quite a neutral tone and doesn't really make the BKWSU look bad as such. So my question regarding whether it should be in the article still stands but I don't really feel so strongly about it if it stays. Regards Bksimonb 07:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Bksimonb,

Yes, the item is neutral, factual and an item of world value. As you know I am fascinated by the VIP contact and only very recently did I get information on the origins of VIP service and "MIKE". Yes, the concept had eluded me, but as you know I plug away, researching, keeping open to contacts within and on the outside. I personally think it should go under VIP service, if you would approve, as Pratibha Patil doesn't see it as negative and the current President Abdul Kalam also went to seek blessings too, as did Sonia Gandhi. So when put in that context, no it is not a negative at all, rather a positive for your organisation.

This is one area that I disagree with another editor on here, frequently, why hide the truth, simply present them as facts. I spent several thousand dollars on research material and now have a considerable BK library filled with most of the BK original material. See, there was no point in hiding the medium/channeling aspect of the faith, as it turns out that government officials in India like Pratibha Patil see it as a communication with the "Divine". So, as always, keep in mind that I am only presenting the facts and not doing this from a negative position. I must say she is by far a gutsy lady in that she simply came out and said it, stated her beliefs, her devotion and what she sees as "Divine Indication". So, she may well be the first female President since the last female leadership of Indira Gandhi.

So, would you be open to the idea of discussing "MIKE"? I would agree to place in the concept even with a {citation needed} tag, until it is documented else where by academics. Seeing that it took me several years to learn this, I think it has value. Please consider it.

I do thank you for being open to the collaborative process, perhaps that is what someone interpreted this as you having a "fan". In fact it is a simple mutual appreciation and respect, one that I hope will continue.PEACETalkAbout 16:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi TalkAbout. I agree it was overall very positive for Pratibha Patil to make the statement. I just had a quick look at the history of her article and saw that it took some time for the report to become NPOV so I wasn't quite sure what to expect here. It seems the principle editor there is quite on-the-ball dealing with all the POV coming in from both parties and keeping it all in balance. BTW I just heard that the "opposition Hindu nationalists" are "conceding early defeat". So it looks like India now has it's first woman president :-)

I'm amazed at all the investment you are making in BK-related references. Is this just for Misplaced Pages? There seems to be an interest in BK history on all sides right now. I am actually quite pleased that it is all going to be documented, in every detail. There is quite an interesting dynamic going on right now from where I am seeing things (which in itself is an interesting vantage point). It appears to be a battle but actually everyone involved is thinking along the same lines.

I've no problem with the concept of "mikes" in principal but I'm not sure how we could document it without any secondary sources. Can you give me some further ideas on how to present this?

I think it's wonderful that it is possible to collaborate with people with opposing or different views. Misplaced Pages would be so boring if everyone just agreed with me all the time! Respect first, POV last is what I say :-)

Regards Bksimonb 13:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Bksimonb,

Truth be told it is like having a political cousin, by association, not by choice. So, when served lemons, make lemonade. Currently, I am considering a degree in religion, and studying some thing else. I have a friend that is a sociologist and another, a writer to sort through all this in the future (may work on a book). I always try to be neutral in all things, if I wasn't neutral, I would cause someone great pain and so, I am always aware of this to a higher degree of awareness.

I also, am trying to collect information on the PBKs and have had some success, but it may require that I travel to India for the further documentation.

As, to "Mike", given the current developments with Pratibha Patil, I think it should be the article. As, mentioned, we could put a {citation needed} as other articles have, a notation in the talkpage and wait for someone to document it. My guess, is that it will once Pratibha Patil becomes President of India, as it will bare notation and someone will surely write a story as to the "Divine Indication" as it took place on February 16, the same day of her Nomination. So, I think that would be within policy and I am sure no one else will argue the point.PEACETalkAbout 15:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been watching this debate for quite long enough. My feeling is that the Brahma Kumari members are quite clear in their intent.

Mr Simon, I am not alone. There are many individuals concerned about the spread of cults in our society through dishonest means. I know a family was broken apart by this group after the mother became involved with them.

Faithinhumanity 16:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Faithinhumanity Please keep the discussion to the article, not the subject. It is not an intention or policy of the BKs to split up families or cause hurt.

Here is a challenge for you. If you really personally know of any aggrieved relatives, as you claim to, then ask them to email me via my talk page and I will see to it that it is received by the relevant coordinator who will attempt to address their concerns from there. Otherwise, please do not use Misplaced Pages as a platform for muck spreading WP:BATTLE. Thanks Bksimonb 17:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

BK Ramesh sets up trust Lekhraj Kripalani dies day after he is shown

very interesting.....look at that! World_Renewal_Trust_Deed

ramesh shah started the world renewal trust in 16th january 1969 and lekhraj kripalani / kirpalani died the day after he was shown it from a heart break..........and to think that the BKs actually celebrate his death on january the 18th.

ok ,we have to have this in the article.........is it agreed as a reliable date?

this is perfectly sound evidence and imagine , the BKs have said all along they were run by women and here is proof that a man set up the trust and was a trustee from day oneGreen108 19:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope. it is not agreed. Do you know what reliable sources are? Take a look at some of the "back issues" of this article. Probably October/November. It was explained at lenght what a reliable source constitutes. Waiting for your proof about "many people think the article is alright." Best, avyakt7 20:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108 This is an encyclopedia not a tabloid newspaper. Also the document has been tagged with an inappropriate license. Fair-use? Possibly. But GFDL??? Also the edit summary contains significant opinion, conjecture and a quote from an unspecified source (presumably at channeled message courtesy of Mr.Dixit). Why are such primary documents being uploaded to Misplaced Pages anyway? This is not a document repository.Bksimonb 04:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Minor additions/deletions: wine, cheese and such

OK. I started adding some citations tags where citations are needed in the article. If those citations are not provided in a reasonable amount of time, ( A week sounds good to me...according to Jossi's previous suggestion) the contents under those citations will be deleted... so, that is 7/24/07... Best, avyakt7 20:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

what we need is for you to prove you have actually read any of the citations or reference...............to be honest , bro..........i think you have some sort of learning difficulty

we have been over this ground before.........every word does not need to have a citation beside it , every referenece does not need to be verbatim from its original source.what you flag up is referenced in the article, the bibliograpy etc, newspapers of note are adequate references

but then you are not interested are you ? so why pretend..............you are just going to attempt your Nazi BK re-write of history ,aren't you?

here we go again..........Bk simon is off complaining to the admins already trying to build up a case against me , and Bk riveros is doing his bootcamp sergeant impersonation.........both of them ignoring any genuine input

how sadGreen108 03:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108. How sad indeed. You must understand that your behaviour has been disruptive and harmful both Misplaced Pages and beneficial to the BKWSU. I will now pursue all means possible to bring some kind of sanity back to this article. I am really sorry it has come to this. Bksimonb 04:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, well, well it seems that ex-bro green108 finally want to talk with me.. wah, how fortunate! OK so you have your way of thinking and then we have wikipedia protocols. Unfortunately it seems to me that you do not understand what is a reliable source It is not what you think is "OK." It is what Misplaced Pages establishes as OK. how do you like my new role? It is all about roles, bro...you know. Best, avyakt7 15:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've done a little cleanup because the article was looking really ugly with all those unnecessary templates. I've removed unsourced statements (except a few, which are tagged with {{fact}} or {{page number}} and can be removed after some time if no source is provided). I've also trimmed down the "Controversies" section -- half the stuff mentioned in the section involved no controversy. Also, I've removed some original research, which was referenced, but the references didn't support the statements made.

In future, instead of tagging the article with so many tags, please consider using tags for relevant sections and statements. utcursch | talk 16:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi utcursch. Thank you so much for taking the time to work through this article. It's a huge improvement already. Appreciate your comments regarding tagging sections but when I did the article analysis I realised there would be so many tags. Maybe I could have split between the more pervasive problems at the top and the one-off issues in the text to get a balance.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 16:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Utcursch could you offer some of the specific quotation referred to e.g. Abbott, Elizabeth Hardy, Hardayal (1984)Green108 11:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Could you be specific about which items you do not consider to be contentious?

Faithinhumanity 16:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

om mandli as a committee

a contributor has introduced the theory of om mandli being "a committee"

this is of course entirely wrong..........om mandli was "the gathering of souls" all 500 of them at its height , the management committee was chosen from amongst the om mandli members , its also difficult to see how this was the "nucleus" of the Bkwsu........it was the precusor , incidentally where is the evidence that Lekhraj handed over his wealth?

having been accused myself of original research to make such constructions goes too far

i also notice the introduction of very specific cultic language........for example , murli in the top paragraph and rasa lila in the early history Kripalani being referred to as "Dada" , so i suppose we are dealing with more BKWSU intervention here........

rasa lila is the real world is a folk dance , rasa lila to the Bks means that Lekhraj kripalani was krishna and the Bk followers were the gopis surrounding him.........all very unencyclopediac ,a sort of double language that only Bks might get

it is riduculous to suggest that "dancing" was a key component of Om Mandli......likewise "preached" Bhagavad Gita

so , no, i am afraid not.......we will have to revert some of that to neutral "lokik" languageGreen108 11:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

For the record Utcursch had no prior communication that I know of with me or any other editor here and was responding to a "Request for comment" regarding the article. If he changed the name from "Kripalani" everywhere it was probably for a very good reason. All the most reliable secondary references refer to him by that name. It's what the community at the time referred to him as. From the readers point of view it is most useful to use the name the subject is most likely to be referred to as by the BKs and the majority of the literature about them. It might be useful to refer to his second name just once in the article but no more than that. It just makes reading it ugly otherwise. Your assessment of this as being "very cultic language" is extreme beyond belief. Sorry. It sounds as if you have a serious axe to grind WP:TEND. I see you elected to revert it without further discussion. Your editing style indicates a clear tendency to drive the article into a state where it conveys a negative impression on the reader.

"...it is riduculous to suggest that "dancing" was a key component of Om Mandli..." Actually dancing whilst in trance was quite a common occurrence at the begining according to Dadi Nirmal Shanta. (Adi Dev p.59)

I leave the rest for Utcursch to comment on.

Regards Bksimonb 12:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Lekhraj did consititue a managing committee to which he transferred his fortune. As you (Green108) point out, the Om Mandali wasn't limited to this particular committee, so I've removed this particular sentence.

As about the evidence that Lekhraj handed over his wealth, please go through the source provided in the article: Abbott, Elizabeth (2001). A History of Celibacy. James Clarke & Co. p. 172. ISBN 0718830067.

If the book is not available in your library, you can check out a snippet at Google Book Search:

http://books.google.com/books?q=A+History+of+Celibacy+lekhraj+personal+fortune

As for "Dada Lekhraj", it is not "cultic language" -- Lekhraj Kripalani is known as "Baba Brahma" among his followers, not "Dada Lekhraj". Kripalani was better known as "Dada Lekhraj", just like "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" was better known as "Mahatma Gandhi":

Google search:

• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Dada+Lekhraj%22 (1520 results)
• http://www.google.co.in/search?q=%22Lekhraj+Kirpalani%22 (436 results)
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lekhraj+Kripalani%22 (305 results)

Google Book search:

• http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Dada+Lekhraj%22 (30 results)
• http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Lekhraj+Kripalani%22 (1 result)
• http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Lekhraj+Kirpalani%22 (0 result)

As per the guideline Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names), "Dada Lekhraj" is a more suitable name.

The reference for Ras Lila and preaching Bhagavad Gita is also provided in the article: Hardy, Hardayal (1984). Struggles and Sorrows: The Personal Testimony of a Chief Justice. Vikas Publishing House. p. 38. ISBN 0706925637.

Again, if you don't have access to a library with this book, you can view a snippet at Google Book Search:

http://books.google.com/books?q=Hardayal+Hardy+lekhraj+gita+ras+lila

If you feel that Dada Lekhraj's Ras Lila was something different, feel free to change the content after providing a reference. The Ras Lila page redirects to Ras Lila (dance), you might wish to turn the Ras Lila page into a disambiguation page.

Last but not the least, I would like to emphasize that I'm not personally involved with Brahma Kumaris. As the category on my user page points out, I am an Atheist. I edited this page only because I saw a huge cleanup template, consisting of nine issues. utcursch | talk 12:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

utcursch if you dont know the subject , and your chosen references contradict other references you should really join the discussion of major changes such as you have made

one of the big problems with the Bkwsu is that they have re-written their history considerably and many of the academics have referred only in passing to a PR version of their history

we see this particularly in the Bkwsu's own publications such as their biographies 'adi dev' for Lekhraj Kripalani and 'an unique experience' for vishwa ratan where they have re-written a fictionalised version of event which is contradicted by the hard evidence

now, beyond walliss's reference of their re-writing the channelled messages , i am avoiding emphasising this on the topic............but in our choice of academic references we need to use these as touch stones for reality............otherwise the topic will only be accused of being a pr job or an advertisement

looking at vishwa ratan's book , he has been completely dishonest about the creation of the poster and , broadly, the Bkwsu has written much of their early history out of the picture

i should mention to you that there is a vociferous dispute between the Bkwsu and a splinter group called the PBK AIVV that has resulted even in violence and mulitple banishment on behalf of the Bkwsu.........BK simon refers to this in passing (Mr Dixit)

i would like it noted have i nothing to do with this splinter group i have never met their leader not studied with them and do not even know the full reasons for the depth of emotions involved Green108 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The hotter the head, the more likely what it says has been cooked. Bksimonb 14:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108, you're free to feel make any changes to the article, if you can source them. Just make sure you avoid original research. E.g., in this edit, you accuse Brahma Kumaris of misandry, while the reference doesn't state anything about "misandry" -- it just states that the women hold the highest spiritual positions while men serve in subordinate positions. Similarly "a number of prophetic failures" is not controversy. utcursch | talk 14:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Utcursch. Most of those references would appear to be from BK's own websites. The recent news about an Indian politician meeting the ghost of the founder makes an imbalancing impact too. For example,

• http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070628/asp/frontpage/story_7987085.asp

References again taken from BK websites.

Faithinhumanity 19:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Dada

as i pointed out to utcursch , Dada is not his name and so i am reverting.........look i appreciate that the Bks are going to revert anything i do as a matter of principle but to call someone dada lekhraj in indian is a bit like call some uncle in english

eg as the article on josef stalin is in his known name , rather than "Uncle Joe" its safe to say we should use real names rather than dadas, didiji and the likes which are subjective judgements which might be mistake by non-indians for being namesGreen108 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Check out the article on David Bowie. His real name is not David Bowie but David Robert Jones. However this is only mentioned once. The rest of the article refers to him by his stage name, not Jones, because that's how people know him. Bksimonb 14:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah.. and what is your real name green108? I know.. it is way easier to thrown the stone and hide the hand without revealing your name...so typical. Will revert on that note. Best, avyakt7 14:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108, I provided a link to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names) in my previous comment. As per the guideline, the convention is to use the most common name of a person. E.g. "Mahatma Gandhi" was not the real name of "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi", but the article is located at Mahatma Gandhi, because that's what he was better known as. Similarly, the article on William Henry Gates III is located at Bill Gates. Besides, "Dada" is not "cultish language" (as you put it), so I don't see any reason for complaints regarding this issue. utcursch | talk 15:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's compromise on Dada and have both:Lekhraj Kripalani "Dada". please note that he article is Lekhraj Kripalani and that to an encyclopedia reader "Dada" without the name is confusing. Also, it would indicate that he is the one and only Dadaand consider that it means some thing totally different here:http://en.wikipedia.org/Dada

So, I will go and place Lekhraj Kripalani "Dada" and if I make a mistake please correct it. Thanks and let's try and get along.PEACETalkAbout 17:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

lets get a grip.......the man's name was Lekhraj Kripalani , no talkabout dont confuse the issue even more that is worse as it is not even accurate from a Bk point of view.it is never used in that way

dada is an indian term ,the closest example we have would be "uncle"............it is not a name ,it is not a character or assumed personality like david bowie . as yet he does not have the status of Gandhi ,or even gates or bowie...........bill is a name , dada is a term of endearment.........so, the gandhi topic is not listen as bapuji , is it?

to his own community (non-BKs), he was known as "Bhai Lekhraj" . so a handful of closely related families called the man "uncle lekhraj" ( Dada Lekhrajbefore they started to think he was brahma incarnate)..............are you going to base a wikipedia article on that?

most readers are not indian , they will think Dada is his name......lets not confuse or mislead them Green108 19:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Dada is not a name. It is either an art movement or a term of endearment from infatuated followers of the man. The founder's name is Lekhraj Kirapalani. The article does not need to be embelished with statements of faith.

212.126.146.163 13:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

the man's is Lekhraj Kripalani or Kirpalani if you wish , its time to grow up and accept that.

just because you two Bks think he is your baba, the wikipedia is no place for such talk . to say Dada Lekhraj is like calling for eg the president's father "Daddy Bush" . if we look eg at Papa Doc ,you see the topic is in his own real name

end of story........facts not faithGreen108 09:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. Mary (mother of Jesus) is not named as listed as "Mother Mary". She is more well known. It looks as like an irrational attack on any edits you make. Even removing the good work on the references.

Faithinhumanity 17:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

you better be careful if you back me........the Bks are already lumping us together and you are being accused of being my meatpuppet by BK simonb

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Green108

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement

yes ,simon sometimes i forget to sign in or post from elsewhereGreen108 18:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't forget to post from a different account or post while logged out. I'm quite happy for others to know about it. Regards Bksimonb 04:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Faithinhumanity, I don't see how you can make a comparison to Mary Mother of Jesus. Her surname is not even known, at least it isn't listed in the Misplaced Pages article about her. You assessment of this being some kind of "irrational attack" also doesn't hold up. Utcursch has also made the assessment that we should follow the WP:COMMONNAME guideline and also identified what is clearly original research. Regards Bksimonb 05:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Start of article

I would like to ask User:Utcursch for comments regarding the first few sentences of the article, particularly with regards to the use of the words "spirit possession". This can sound rather shocking and as it stands it reads as if it is part of the Raj Yoga meditation training. This is not the case. The reference for this description is from "New Religious Movements: challenge and response" and the relevent passage is quoted below.

The Brahma Kumaris present a similar pattern of a founder who favoured and promoted women, and has been run mainly by women since his death. In some respects the role reversal is more complete than in the Osho movement, since women are teachers as well as administrators, and there is a very clear doctrine on gender equality. They are concerned with women's issues and spiritual leadership. However, as with sannyasins, Brahma Kumaris women become core members by being fully `surrendered'; and their prominence derives from their mediumistic cababilities, channelling murlis (sermons) from their dead founder. As a result, `their power is veiled through the device of possession. Women, even when they; possess power, cannot be seen to wield it. Hence, the importance of spirit possession where women are the instruments or mouthpieces of a male spirit."

I would say that a theory is being presented and some of the statements made do not describe what actually happens, or at least present it in a misleading way. If this reference is used I propose it is used with attribution later in the article since I don't think that the first paragraph should aim to present such an odd view. To summarize, this is how things actually do work with regards to mediumship,

• There is only one appointed medium, Dadi Gulzar, who enters trance and is believed to channel a combination of the soul of Brahma Baba and of Shiv Baba (believed by BKs to be God) relate the murli by a process of direct body manifestation
• Brahma Baba channeled Shiv Baba whist still conscious and also able to chip-in with comments. This is the closest to the descriptions I have read of "spirit possession". Dadi Gulzar is believed to channel this double-act.
• There are a few trance messengers who bring back messages from the "subtle region" and relate them by memory, and not by having the organs taken over. This practice is restricted to a very few now. Prominence in the organisation is not related to ability to be mediums either by trance or "spirit possession". Not sure where that came from. Trance messages are not treated as being as reliable as the murlis and are understood to be coloured by the messenger's personality.
• Trance is considered separate from Raj Yoga and is discouraged as an aim due to the complications that can arise from messing with it.
• As far as I know, only BKs from a Hindu background know how to go into trance. Perhaps the custom is somewhat imported.

Please comment on how you see the first paragraph should go based on your experience on Misplaced Pages the references you have kindly taken the time to study.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 15:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it not the case that the object of your meditation is the possessing spirit that you claim is God?

Do you make this clear to your students at the beginning of your induction process? Faithinhumanity 16:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the object of the Raj Yoga meditation is God as defined as being the universally benevolent Being. Various faiths claim that God spoke to them in some form or another. For example, the "Lords Prayer" is addressed to an entity that Christ claimed was God. In fact, Christ is claimed to be part of God (the Trinity). So is that also invoking some "spirit" that may or may not be God? Most faiths, including the BKs, define God to be a universally benevolent being and often also some form of light.

Regards Bksimonb 17:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

no, the object of the Raj Yoga meditation is complete surrender mentally and physically to the possessing spirit that they claim entered into lekhraj kripalani and still enters into gulzar up in abu road

it has nothing to do with who or what other religions think is god....to Bks , god is that "ghost" that spoke to the Indian presidency candidate , he only speaks to them and at this time

from a Bk point of view , what simon is saying here is complete nonsense........this is not what the god of the Bkwsu teaches to its followers ,i would go as far it is dishonest and deliberately deceptive and can quote the murlis to prove it

Bks dont believe that god came to speak to anyone at any other time than now and only they get the message ,

its typically vague talk intended to deceive the real truth of what the Bkwsu teaches and believes , this is the problem we have to deal with...........Green108 19:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

How long have you been in Gyan, Green108? Many years, right? It is unfortunately that you are misrepresenting the knowledge. Just a few weeks ago, I remember a Murli when ShivBaba mentioned that "everyone was a Brahma Kumar/Kumaris" (son and daughter of Prajapita Brahma, AKA "Adam")it is just that "we" have recognized God... others have not.

So, I wonder if your "they only get the message" is true. You took gyan as well, but obviously you didn't get it. if you do not practice the disciplines, you will not be able to "get it." The understanding that everyone has a different role and that there is NO ONE who is better or worse than any other human being, is instilled in this knowledge... just different roles. Of course, the Murli is for Brahmins who have recognized God numberwise and ShivBaba as a loving Father uplifts us as special children, since "we" have recognized "Him," thus, "He" talks to us only (the other children do not want to listen....) There is no such a thing as a "ghost" as well. It is a soul, the Supreme Soul who needs Brahma's sanskars in order to communicate with us. If you fully understood the first lesson about the soul and the 3 "powers" of it (As one Murli referred to them) namely, mind, intellect and sanskars or impressions; you will see that ShivBaba's knowledge is fully consistent, from lesson one. The knowledge is intended to benefit and uplift everyone, and that is why it is necessary to give the adequate dosage of it according to who is receiving it; so here is where your "vague talk" comes into the picture. You cannot talk to a child who is learning about addition; that multiplication is just another way of addition and expect that this child will know how to multiply after your brief explanation. There is no benefit in that. Our understanding and depth of the Supreme Soul knowledge, is as you know; numberwise according to efforts.

Just thought about clarifying a bit. Best Wishes, avyakt7 02:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the object of Raja Yoga...?? It depends on who you are and what stage you are experiencing. All numberwise, my friend. So, I like to use the "vague talk" of being a connection with God, the source. Hey, "i" can give the Father's intro here...my light bulb is just turning on.... avyakt7 02:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

and if we are going to consider the whole issue of channelling and mediumship , we have to put it into not just a historical context of the other mediums at the start of the history........those after kripalani's death..........but also consider "The Inspiration Party" which Bks believe /are taught are dead senior Bks that are going about in a ghost like form doing service through Bks to this day

i do not know if it is referenced by academics...........it might be something the Bks are hush-hush about............but it is in the channelled messages . Bks believe themselves ,and are prepared, to be used by the disincarnate spirits of deceased members........so they say

so ,yes, mediumship and channelling are key difference between their and the classic ancient raja yogaGreen108 18:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

minor housekeeping

i spent some time on minor housekeeping........would those habitual reverters please pay heed to this

i put a space before references and fullstops after trying to tidy the article up , please try and keep it uniform and lets try and get the page listed on the front of the wikipedia one day!Green108 21:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I see your "minor housekeeping." Perhaps, others should be able to see all the changes you have made not even listening to admin Utcursch are you related with 244? or just taking advanced lessons from him? I can see a pattern here. Obviously, you don't think that you will get away with this, do you? Best, avyakt7 12:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108 blocked for 24 hrs due to violation of 3RR

For the record: As I said, green108, it is a cycle after all. Enjoy your day off... Best, avyakt7 13:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Luis. I recommend not to post comments that appear to be gloating.

I have to travel now but in the meantime I suggest involved editors restore the cleanup that Utcursch did being very careful not to undo non-contentious edits that may have happened since. Here is a diff between the cleanup and time of typing . Here is the article at the time of the latest post-cleanup edit .

Regards Bksimonb 13:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

got the message, Simon. Thank you for the ear pulling. yes.. they just appear to be, but they are not... Have a good trip! avyakt7 13:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

IP from UK making changes

It seems that someone is rather working overtime...Another piece for the akashic records of Misplaced Pages. Note the immediacy of changes and complete reversal of other edition. I wonder who could that be?

inetnum: 212.126.145.0 - 212.126.147.255 netname: FREEUK-NETS-1 descr: FreeUK modem pool country: GB

avyakt7 15:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Om Shanti

We need more Om Shanti, Brothers and Sisters. BKs do not defame the Father in this way. Please stop making conflict in this way.

BK Angel

BK Angel...It seems you had no problem in making changes in the article in such an angelic way ... As a BK you even re-instated this unsourced material:"An article in Newsweek magazine portrayed Lekhraj as a modern-day Krishna surrounded by admiring gopis and as a justification for him to set up a harem of upper class women." Very Om shanti, Bro! You see, I have a problem with that. "An Article" is just to vague, which article?...I see all the angels coming to help bro. Green108 now...May you keep flyn' high... Best, avyakt7 17:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Clarification on Date of Birth

the problem with the recent bibliography ,is that all the academics have depended on facts, figures and a version of the history as given by the Brahma Kumaris themselves..............primarily from the hagiography (biography idealizing its subject) of Lekhraj Kripalani called Adi Dev by one of his financially supported followers named Jagdish Chander

looking at the actual text of "Struggles and Sorrows; The Personal Testimony of a Chief Justice" by Justice Hardayal Hardy (p 37 to 39), rather than depending on google snippets ,you will read;

"Another case I did involved Dada Lekhraj Kripalani of Hyderabad who owned a jewellery shop in Calcutta. He sold his shop and returned to Hyderabad with approximately Rs 10 lakhs as his assets. He bought a house and settled there. Dada Lekhraj was about 54 years old"

This was in 1938. As Justice Hardy was not only Lekhraj Kripalani's counsel but went on to be the Chief Justice of India, I think we can consider his work to be reliable and authoritative

the big issue about this is that the Bks have re-written their history and the channelled messages they claim are the words of god..........in the murlis , the channelled entity says he enters the body of his chariot when the chariot is 60 years old.........time and time again , we find that Kripalani was only in his mid 50s......as chander in the 1970s also noted (approximately 55)

it is this that the Pbk splinter group has jumped on as proof that kripalani was not the original medium of god ,and because of the aggressive supression of the Pbks......all sort of crazy denial has set in about this, the age has been removed from the murlis just like the stuff about "God not mounting a virgin" when the current medium of the spirit is dadi gulzar, a virgin

Ok.........that is the background for those that do not know the history ,the re-writing and advance party stuff is all referenced in walliss workGreen108 18:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Very good 244! You are such a journalist. Same issues, different user name. The green108 from your BKI site mentioned there that he is not the green108 in wikipedia... so, what's up with that, 244? Perhaps the wiki green108 is another ex-BK who just like to be called green108? sounds reasonable, right? better hurry up and erase that comment from your site.

Best, avyakt7 22:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(ps:

Green108. I have to say that your POV, style and editing behaviour now closely resembles that of a banned user. The Green108 of last year was a lot less verbose and edited a lot less prolifically than the Green108 that has been operating since last March. What is particularly interesting is the intensity over which you insist on details such as the Kriplani/Dada Lekraj naming issue and the various dates. We know that the organisation started some time in the 30s. That's good enough. If there is any contention about Dada Lekraj's birth date then we just say that it was in the late 19th century. There is no need for a crusade over this. These are not details I imagine most readers would really care much for, however regarding the name issue I strongly support the WP:COMMONNAME convention. I don't see any need for a compromise unless there is consensus amongst all the editors involved that there is a good reason to do differently to the guideline. I don't see that reason and I don't see that consensus. If you continue to push the issue you will simply continue to find yourself blocked.

Even if you really have stumbled upon some startling new revelations regarding these dates then you must understand one thing. Misplaced Pages is not interested WP:OR. You are using hard-to-find or out-of-print primary sources to prove controversial points. It is not a "denial" to tell you to kindly take your research elsewhere, however attractive Misplaced Pages's prominence may be to you. You may even be right about your research, but being right does not excuse the following behaviours,

• Ignoring consensus
• Trolling
• Edit waring
• Possibly using sockpuppets to support your POV and edits
• Personal attacks and crazy accusations against opposing editors
• Misrepresenting the BKWSU and/or the reliable secondary sources

If you really have some interesting new angles on BKWSU history I strongly recommend you take a more sober and appropriate approach to researching and presenting it. Other wise it starts to look a bit like a crank theory. From the article linked,

1. Cranks overestimate their own knowledge and ability, and underestimate that of acknowledged experts.
2. Cranks insist that their alleged discoveries are urgently important.
3. Cranks rarely if ever acknowledge any error, no matter how trivial.
4. Cranks love to talk about their own beliefs, often in inappropriate social situations, but they tend to be bad listeners, and often appear to be uninterested in anyone else's experience or opinions.

Further...

In addition, many cranks

• seriously misunderstand the mainstream opinion to which they believe that they are objecting,

....

• claim that their ideas are being suppressed by secret intelligence organizations, mainstream science, powerful business interests, or other groups which, they allege, are terrified by the possibility of their allegedly revolutionary insights becoming widely known,

Thanks and regards Bksimonb 09:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

yeah, 244. Remember the key words are "allege and allegedly" sounds familiar?

Best, avyakt7 13:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

its funny you say that a friend and supporter of Bk hansa patel gave evidence of how he had removed reports of hansa's claims that raja yoga cures cancer off the internet............and in the letters he said that the Pentagaon and Department of Defence

the link is here BK Hansa Raval; cancer cure claims & tax free future

he said that Bk hansa's legal counsel, the Department of Defense and the Pentagon are taking legal actions towards the authors of the fictitious article and any website posting the article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

• 1. Calvin Chin to be banned from all United States based domain registration or site hosting.
• 2. Calvin Chin to be banned from submitting articles to any United States based online site.
• 3. Class Action Suit against Calvin Chin for damages caused to all cancer patients misdirected by the article.

• The following have already been contacted regarding this issue:
• 1. United States Department of Defense
• 2. Embassy of the United States, Kuala Lumpu

the funny this is ,the author wrote it in praise of the Bkwsu and the individual doing the stirring is a Bk supporter (ex-us military like hansa patel).........so you are right , this stuff attracts a lot of nuts and we have to be careful of our references . any way , back to the article Green108 13:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108, your response has nothing at all to do with the article, Misplaced Pages or anything any editor here has done and just looks like petty mud slinging. It's no surprise the link you provide is to a website you are intimately involved with. What anyone else is doing does not excuse you conduct. And since you have contacts at that web site will you please ask Ex-L to respond to our email request for personal dialogue so we can keep this nonsense off Misplaced Pages.Bksimonb 17:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

maintenance work on references

i did a pretty major bit of maintenance work on the references putting them into shap as User:Utcursch did..............they are about 95% complete but have a few quotes and ISBN numbers and proper dates to go back in ,so i am working on it just now

i have a couple of question , if the same reference is used but a different quote..........technically how do you do that?

what is the proper way to lay out the bibliography at the end?

i have a general observation to make ,because of the persistent trolling of the BKWSU Internet PR Team , I think the article has become over referenced................they have always attacked each and every word demanding citations and have pretty much always been given them

its impossible to seriously edit the piece if individuals have not got or read or refuse to read the actual quoted works............there must be a limit to how far others are expect to go to appease interested parties that are not informed............surely, beyond a certain point such behaviour has to be seen for what it is!!!!!!!!!!!Green108 13:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not 244, he got banned ......but you can think what you like, but that is not relevant here.....avaykt 7 I don't come on here to hear your ideas and churnings on gyan, love and peaceGreen108 13:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear 244, Your new gig now is to delete references which do not support your views.that is serious maintenance, 244. I decided to go into it and do a bit of maintenance myself, hoping to get the tune up just right.... How about if you supply a copy of the articles you are researching and post them in your BKI site? I have done that before so there is no doubt of how legit my sources were. I will go for some "sun and fun" and come back to change the oil and get it just right... yes, we know 244 was banned. What is new 244? you keep coming back with different names, IPs, friends and different writing styles. I see that your integrity is quite high, 244. No one could tell that you were a Brahmin before. Apologies for posting my own churnings, I know you don't come here to read them but... why do come here again?? Perhaps you could set me up with an account in your BKI site, in that way I could post my little churnings on Gyan, How about that ol' buddy? Best, avyakt7 16:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108, if the article is over referenced it is because just about every claim being made in it is chosen to be controversial. If the article actually did it's job of just informing people of who the BKWSU are in a balanced way then there would be no need for so many challenges. There are some sections of the article like that where the text is more free-flowing because it is not trying to prove something controversial or that most BKs would think, "Huh? That's not right! That's not us!". There is much more required than just references, the article also needs to be neutral and balanced. Just trying to cram in more references to prove controversial points is not what the article needs right now.

Yes, 244 did get banned. That is why it is highly inadvisable that you continue to act exactly like him. Right now I feel as though Green108 has faded away and I am really talking to 244. If you don't want to give that impression then I suggest you drastically modify your style. It's ironic we were recently discussing "spirit possession". I know who the original Gree108 was in real life and can say this is not the same person as I remember him now.

Regards Bksimonb 07:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108 AKA 244 cleaning up his talk page

244, In the past you have performed the same behavior. As you know, you are not allowed to erase any admin messages in your talk page. Are you afraid of showing your 24 hrs block to the world? As always, you do not follow the rules of the game. Your old sanskars keep popping out, 244. So, in this cycle, what comes next, 244? Are you spinning the cycle of wikipedia? I believe arbitration comes next... just like before? Best, avyakt7 16:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry Simon to say the same about you, I know who you are and you've become something quite different. It is sad. Avyakt 7, when you leave gyan which I suspect won't be in the too distant future, you will look back on all this and the way you feel now in a different light. All the best. Green108 17:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

244 a fortune teller? So; What your little crystal ball says about showing up for a personal dialogue with BK? you need guts for that. Best, avyakt7 18:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

there is no point going to talk to the Bk leaders ,believe me i tried .

there is no point in continuing such a dialogue with you two Bks...........Your intentions are entire clear

on the basis of my many years involvement with the Bkwsu ,I can promise non-Bks reading this that the topic as it stands is very highly , if not entirely ,accurate and this explains the strength of these individuals' reaction........of course it is not the PR job the Bkwsu wants and what you want to do as we have seenGreen108 09:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:TEND

Green108, I've reverted your edits because they were undoing valid edits originally made by Utcursch and Andries. Your changes were quite extensive and may have contained some valid changes but I'm not going to sift through them as long as I can see that there are also tendentious edits that undo the valid input of other, more experienced, editors who are not emotionally involved with the subject matter, as your posts and edits indicate that you are.

It is a pity you feel there is no point in dialogue with BK editors. However, judging by the way you force your edits over Utcursch and Andries it seems to me that you are not interested in dialogue with any editor. Period.

Regards Bksimonb 12:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

this is incorrect.........i included andries correction (the only problem was a missing bracket which i just fixed), have corresponded with Utcursch and ,and having actually read the books in question provided full citations from books for where he has relied on partial google extracts..........as you well know the issue of the ras lila has no real significance at all unless if we want to discuss whether it was trance dancing as the girls had visions of krishna and the golden age

otherwise be specific , all i can see is that you are riveros are trying to set me up for another 3rr with this "Dada versus real name" business and date of birth which is not reported correctly.

you have worked your way through just about every complaint in the book , why not just be honest about what you are trying to achieveGreen108 13:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Green108 I have to sincerely apologise regarding the edit Andries made. I completely misread what had happened and thought you were reversing it when in fact you restored it after an accidental deletion.

However the "Dada Lekraj" name business is not resolved yet. It would be helpful if you could keep the references tidy-up you were doing separate from the more contentious edits. I can't speak further now because I have to rush off. Thanks & regards Bksimonb 17:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Misleading use of edit summaries by BK Team

i am sorry..........i really wanted to avoid continuing the conflict but i have to flag up the misleading use of the edit summaries by the Bk team simon and riveros . can this please stop ?

the issue is whether we use "Daddy" Lekhraj or call the man by his name Lekhraj Kripalani ,i say his formal name is more correct and inline with other individuals on the wikipedia.........he is not a mahatma gandhi yet and it is not the place of the wikipedia to deify him

i have replace the version with the resolved references.........a lot of work went into fixing them

i see simon has also put in another admin complaint trying to have me ban ,it seems to be that he and riveros are working together to try and trip others up with 3rrs and the rest , as a rule i wont become involved in tit for tat complaining but as long as others are aware of this ,i stand by my editsGreen108 13:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear 244, it appears that you want to close your doors of understanding. What a pitty 244! well, I am sorry to hear that. I have put a lot of work as well fixing your arbitrary changes in this article. Why worry so much at the 3RR anyway, 244? You keep deleting them from your talk page anyways...and if you get banned, you will re-appear again and again...so we are in it 244, aren't you happy? Best, avyakt7 16:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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