Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Karl Dickman (talk | contribs) at 04:24, 5 June 2005 (this does not belong here; moreover, it has already been posted elsewhere, so it's inclusion is superfluous). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I have tried to bring Islamic terrorism and militant Islam into some sort of neutral, coherent state. These two terms are closely related in usage and problems, so please read both before making changes. --Zeeshanhasan 18:16, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

This article suffers badly from it's American POV. It really needs a re-write --195.7.55.146 17:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An authority

• An Islamic ideal of non-violence by Zeeshan Hasan from LiberalIslam.net

I dont question the content of this person's writings but rather the extent of his influence upon the more than one billion Muslims in the world. Can anyone indicate the extent of his influence. On this own web site, he says that he can not find a publisher for this ideas. Lance6Wins 02:18, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Even if my own writings are not well known, and I would hardly claim to be an 'authority', I do contend that the POV I express is necessary for the NPOV of this article. Compare with the article on Baruch Goldstein, which mentions that the Israeli government and many Jewish groups condemned his murder of civilians. The vast majority of Muslims in the world do not go around killing innocent people, and NPOV requires that their existence be acknowledged when talking about phrases like 'Islamic terrorism'. Otherwise this all too easily becomes a derogatory term for all Muslims. Of course, it doesn't matter whether NPOV is maintained by simply mentioning the disagreement between liberal movements in islam or by including a link to the non-violence article. So even if you don't like the non-violence article, please don't delete the contrast with liberal movements. --Zeeshanhasan 09:57, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You wrote "The vast majority of Muslims in the world do not go around killing innocent people,". No one disputes this. Members of the Misplaced Pages community are not considered sources for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Surely you can find a Muslim organization that subscribes to these views. Please check with others.....Misplaced Pages members are not sources. Lance6Wins 10:43, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out to me, I honestly had not realized this. I am removing all links to my own website from Misplaced Pages, with one exception; as a reference to the liberal movements within Islam article. There are only a handful of sites on the web dealing with that particular topic, and mine is one of them. --Zeeshanhasan 13:20, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

rename....

As per the suggestion of Ancheta Wis, I changed the name of this article form Islamic to Islamist. He suggests it is a more precise and respectful label, and I agree. Kingturtle 19:57, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Updated text to match. --LeeHunter 20:15, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Oops, thanks. Kingturtle 20:17, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Islamist terrorism an oxymoron?

I agree Islamist terrorism is a much better phrase than Islamic Terrorism although I think it is still not accurate and assumes that Islam and terrorism are not incompatible. 'Islam' means submission to God and also has a close relationship to the arabic word for peace. Therefore saying 'Islamist terrorism' is similar to saying 'Peaceful terrorism' - the two cannot exist at the same time. Obviously there does have to be a recognition that these people may claim to be muslims, and claim to be furthering the ideals of Islam, although every Muslim would agree (and everyone else) that unprovoked killing of innocent people does nothing to further the ideals of Islam. Therefore it seems an insult to Muslims to even call terrorists Muslim or associate the word Islam and terrorism. Also, some people refer to "Islamic extremism" which gives the impression that 'Islamist' terrorists are extreme Muslims - when really they are not Islamic at all. --Cap 13:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC) see also Christian terrorism

I don't buy the linguistic argument. Islam means "submission", while it may come from "Saalam"/peace it is not the same thing. It would translate as "submission terrorism", not "peace terrorism", if I understand the arabic correctly. --Josiah 02:52, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To give another example, a hebrew word meaning "a lost thing" has a root word that means "destruction". If taken from the root word and combined with terrorism, it would be "destruction terrorism", but if taken by the actual word, it would mean "Misplaced Terrorism." Obviously, there is a huge difference.--Josiah 02:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Islamic terrorism" should be an oxymoron, though sadly some terrorists consider themselves to be acting in the name of Islam. However, in any event, "Islamist terrorism" is a better word choice, despite the doubts surrounding the definition of that term, since it conveys the politics-religion interface which in practice is relevant. - Mustafaa 17:47, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Islamist vs Islamic

The article makes it seem like there is some nuance between these words which would make Islamist more respectful than Islamic. I am having difficult understanding this difference as they both seem pretty much like synonyms to 'Muslim' for me. Can someone care to explain how Islamist is more respectful please? Thanks 24.187.18.164 03:50, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

They are not synonyms any more than Islam and Islamism are synonyms. —No-One Jones 03:54, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Islamist refers to people who adapt Islam for other purposes (e.g. in this case violence) whereas Islamic refers to people who follow Islam. Islamic terrorism is seen as less acceptable as it implies that it involves all Muslims Cynical 13:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I think Islamist and Islamic distinctions are irrelevent. Islamic/Islamists/whatever terrorism is called as such because terrorist are committing crimes in the name of their religion. It should be irrelevant whether Islam is really a religion of peace. The other page is entitled Christian terrorism, not Christianist terrorism. 12:14 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why AZF is classified as islamic/islamist?

Why AZF is classified as islamic/islamist?

Timeline

Once again Pename is trying to insert his so-called Timeline in articles where he combines military actions and historical wars along with recent terrorist activities, as if wars and recent terrorism are the same OneGuy 06:59, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Moreover, this is like someone writing a Timeline of US military history in which wars like WWs and terrorists like Timothy Mcveigh are included. This timeline is a joke. And we can see that by including Muhammad and early Islamic battles on the page of terrorism, where this anti-Islamic editor is going with his agenda. This is clearly anti-Islamic POV and unacceptable OneGuy

No kidding. See also Template talk:Timeline of Islamist militancy. - Mustafaa 23:37, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Verdict of the Qur'an...Revert War brewing

I have reverted to last version by Kingturtle. Kingturtle was reverting to the last version that (coincidentally) I was the last to edit. User:68.107.102.129 is trying to insert something that is a POV and inaccurate.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:27, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I just added the following to the talk page for the IP Address from which the non-logged user was adding the material:

== Islamist terrorism ==

I hate to remove something you added without discussion. But I removed your section at the top that said

"Qur'an prescribes killing infidels. Islam is a belief in what is written in Qur'an. Therefore by any modern definition of terrorism, Islam is a terrorist doctrine, an..."

and so on. While agree that the section titled "Verdict of the Qu'ran" is a little simplistic, a better way to go about what you want to do would be to help that section expand, not add something that most folks would not agree with.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:33, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I do think the "Verdict..." section should discuss the point of view (if only to refute it) that the above user represents.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:36, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't seem right to talk about the "verdict" of the Qur'an without mentioning the doctrine of abrogation (sura:verse; 2:100; 13:39; 16:103; 22:51) and all that implies.

I have no clue what you are talking about; please explain.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:17, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Lists of terrorist organisations & NPOV?

Don't really strike me as all that NPOV. One persons terrorist is the other persons' patriot. (I noticed someone on the dutch terrorism article adding George Bush, for instance :-/ ). Or did I miss a consensus on this someplace. If so, please guide me to where I'm missing it?

(I'll go look some more for a minute) Kim Bruning 20:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ah, the list here is redundant with List_of_terrorist_groups#Islamic, and the nice thing is that that list has a very nice Great Big Disclaimer at the top of the page. Anyone oppose merging the list to there? Kim Bruning 20:44, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Frankly, I think that the statement that "One persons terrorist is the other persons' patriot." is a red herring that belongs in the statements of governments, activists, and opinion columnists not in an encyclopedia—unless we are to admit that the encyclopedia has a POV. Terrorism is a description of tactics. And being a terrorist is not mutually exclusive with being a patriot any more than being, say, a bomber pilot who flies planes that can carry nuclear bombs is. Or being a fanatic is mutually exclusive with being religious.

Example: When the Taleban were fighting the Soviet Union, he was a 'freedom fighter' because he was on America's side. When they are doing much the same to American forces in Afghanistan they are called 'terrorists'. Cynical 13:21, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The list in this article is odd because it (often :D) has Hizballah listed with a number of other organnizations that are all Sunni groups. Putting it here only works if you take the loosest meaning of the word "Islamist" in the title. But if we are to take that meaning, isn't it odd that that is the only non-Sunni group?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:11, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Jihad

Aren't the Islamist terrorist groups motivations tied up in their interpretation of the meaning of jihad? :ChrisG 17:05, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions

I am just wondering how naming is supposed to work out? we use Jama'at al-Tawhid wal Jihad not Monotheism and Holy War Movement .... yet we use Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group and not Groupe Islamique Combattant Marocain. So, it seems that for Arabic names we use transliteration and for French names we translate? I don't quite understand it.... gren 14:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please correct it. Though in both cases, I would put the translation in parentheses and suffix both with a "...usually known by the <Arabic/French> nickname/initials <Jama'at/GIS/etc.>67.118.240.18 17:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Correct Title

Islamic terrorism is a fine name for it. It's the using of islam (Which means submission) as a justification for Jihad and Holy War against infidels. Basically, islamic people are using their religion in order to force the rest of the world to submit by violence.

If we take Islam to mean only submission then Christians are submitters too... there's more to it than that obviously. Islamists are typically the Muslims who commit terrorist acts and thus we get the title. We could say "the Christian papacy"... but, I'm thinking many would reject that title and say "the Roman Catholic papacy"... Islamism is more specific... gren 00:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

REPLY: By Matttodd

Your understanding of the meaning and implications of the word 'Islam' is incorrect, madam/sir. Indeed, 'Islam' means to submit (to God), but it is from the point of view of the Muslim, and not non-Muslims. To clarify, it is the Muslims who submit to God and not non-Muslims. Also, according to Islamic doctrine, it is wrong for force to be used for anything save defense. It would be anti-dogmatic to offensively force non-believers to believe in their God and their doctrine.

As far as your arguments for the title, it's obvious that you do not understand the complications of naming this "Islamist Terrorism" in that the title implies that Islamists or Muslims are doctrinally permitted or even commanded to commit terrorism. However, as I stated previously, non-defensive force is not sanctioned and is specifically prohibited. It is due to a lack of understand of Islamic law and beliefs that many mistakenly assume that it is alright for the title to remain how it is.

Simply, my suggestion is to recognise the non-traditional nature of terrorism associated with the Islamic faith. It would be quite sufficient, yet lacking slightly, to make the name something along the lines of "Islamic Extremist Terrorism" or similar. This designation of the sect of Islam would more aptly differentiate and educate everyone on the nature of terrorism as it is related to Islamic faith.

Matttodd 04:13, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree. BrandonYusufToropov 16:11, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

General Confusion

Correct me if I am wrong, but I beleive Islam is the religion Muslims practice, and an Islamist is something that practices Islam. Why can't we just say Muslim Terrorism? It does have a different connotation, but wouldn't it be simpler and less confusing? (to people like me)

No. A person who practices Islam is usually called a Muslim. (The word exists in that same way in Arabic. Other languages use "Mussulman", etc. BTW Muslims abhor "Mohammadan".) "Islamist" is a pretty recent label for people who follow a political ideology--usually the ideology based the writings of people like Syed Qutub, Maulana Maududu, etc.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:34, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

It is extremely POV to discuss "Islamic terrorism". "Terrorism committed by Muslims" if you must. Even "Islamist terrorism" is very dodgy, given that not all Islamists by any means are in favour of using terror to gain their ends. Grace Note 06:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Did you read the article? The term is commonly used. You are accusing anyone who has used it for whatever reason, including most of the Western media, of being "Islamophobes". Jayjg 06:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

• Jay, I look at fights like this and wonder a) what on earth you're trying to accomplish b) how on earth to respond.
• It's not like you don't know terms like "Christian terrorist" or "Jewish terrorist" would be radioactively POV, so I can only assume you're trying to distract someone into launching a revert war on another page trying to incorporate such terms, and perhaps then seek some kind of benefit, known only to you, from the ensuing chaos.
• The thing is, though, I would never, ever do use such term,s because a term like "Jewish terrorist" is patently offensive and loathsome to me.
• As a matter of fact, if you look at the history of the disputes you and I have had on these kinds of issues, you will never find any slander of the Jewish people, or any other group, in any of my edits.
• Our whole discussion is about cleaning up piles of, shall we say, debris that you heap on Muslims (as Muslims, not as individuals).
• You ask me to accept edits that say my religion (not any individual practitioner, but the faith itself) is inherently terroristic.
• You ask me to accept edits that say my religion (not any individual practitioner, but the faith itself) is inherently fascistic.
• So I give up. You're clearly a very intelligent person. You know how to hold clear discussions about important issues. Why don't we get to the core question. Why do you want to write these things about Muslims?
• I'm not asking about what is commonly used, commonly said, commonly "known" about Islam. I'm asking about you. Why is it so important to you to impart this view of my faith to the world? BrandonYusufToropov 13:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

No responses to you Brandon, until you indicate good faith in some more tangible way. You know what I'm waiting for. Jayjg 14:19, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

What he said though. Discuss the term in the body of the article. Discuss uses in the media and cite it. But putting it in the first line is setting the tone, Jay. You know that. I feel you try to poison the well in articles like this by inserting a POV upfront. Why? Why not be as neutral as possible in presenting the article's subject, and then begin presenting both sides' poison in the body of the article? Grace Note 02:55, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

And I might add that you are not supporting the argument that wide use of a term should substantiate our using it in Jesus, concerning "BC/AD". I don't mind your claiming that you are editing on principle, but it must be the same principle for the every article, surely? Grace Note 03:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

You are making a broad unsubstantiated claim, that anyone who uses the term "Islamic terrorism" is an "islamophobe". You have not brought any justification or source for this claim; moreoever, it seems to tar huge numbers of people with that label. For example, according to you version of the article, PBS are islamophobes:, as is The Economist magazine , as is Salman Rushdie , etc. I personally think people should use the term "Islamist terrorism", but is absurd to claim anyone who happens to uses "Islamic" as opposed to "Islamist" is an Islamophobe simply because you prefer the latter term; more importantly, it is a violation of the WP:NPOV and Misplaced Pages:Cite your sources policies, since you have worded your opinion as incontrovertible and unsourced fact. As for the usage of BC/AD, I fail to see the parallel; in fact, if anything, the parallel goes the other way. I'm not claiming that people who use the term BC/AD are "Christian supremicists" or "culturally insensitive" or any other such broad label, I'm simply saying that BCE/CE is academically preferred and more neutral, which are indeed good reasons for using "Islamist terrorism" over "Islamic terrorism" as well. If you want to move the Islamic terrorism label down into the article, and discuss its alternative usage there, and why people don't like it, that's perfectly reasonable; but to simply claim that "Islamic terrorism" is only use by Islamophobes violates Misplaced Pages policy and is simply wrong. Jayjg 09:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I think you've at least seen the point. Grace Note 23:39, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, not really. If you have an issue with a section of an article, the answer is to fix the problem, not introduce new ones. And I never understood your claim that I was "inserting a POV upfront"; I inserted nothing in the article, but rather deleted your obvious POV. I shouldn't have had to, if you cared about policy at all you would never have put it in to begin with. Jayjg 01:00, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The answer is to do what works, Jay. We now have an article we're both happy with. You want to continue bickering about "policy", please indulge yourself, but please don't expect me to join in. Grace Note 05:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Islamofacism

The word has been used in the article before, not as a direct reference to Islamist Terrorism, but as an article of interest of those who want to read up on the entire issues of terrorism. What happened this morning is that a user by the name of Spastika took the word out, called it a POV. I reverted it, since nearly everything he did was reverted because of his possible pro-Arab pov pushing. I am not sure when the word was added to the article, but all I wanted to do is bring it back to a previous version. Zscout370 (talk) 23:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Do not use links to instill POV. BrandonYusufToropov 15:11, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

As said before, I was reverting an edit made by a vandal, which removed the word. I am happy to work with yall on trying to reach a consensus on inclusing of this link at the end of the article. Zscout370 (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Do not use links to instill POV, Jay.BrandonYusufToropov 23:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you expand on that, please. I just want to know why could be it be considered installing POV by adding the link. Zscout370 (talk) 02:10, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I have explained why on your talkpage. There is no connection between the Islamists and fascism except that some rightwing commentators in the West (and Nick Cohen) call them fascists. The link is being included in my view to legitimate a POV about the islamofascist page. Source the link and I think the objection will disappear. Of course, I'm confident you cannot. Grace Note 08:59, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Here is an article from a website called Faithfreedom.org. It compares between Islam and the Facsism movement, but from what I read, this has a huge anti-Arab POV. This one, is an article from Joseph Sorba, who is challenging people on how the term is actually defined. The other websites that even discuss the term are just blogs, which I stated earlier at the Islamofacism. Zscout370 (talk) 16:53, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I know you're not advocating this, but if faithfreedom.org is the standard we adopt for NPOV, this encyclopedia is in a great deal of trouble. As for the likelihood that Islamist movements are actually fascist, see the messy debate at Talk:Islamofascism. BrandonYusufToropov 18:03, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

You win. I will drop it. Zscout370 (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

The Faithfreedom article is very misguided to be fair. It has to be a worry for the pro-concept crowd that that's the best that can be found. The site it appears on is virulently antiMuslim. The Sobran article describes it as a "bogus label". "Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term." Indeed. Grace Note 23:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I do agree that the first website I posted has a huge anti-Arab POV. Hell, this website says that Muhammad was a pedophile, rapist, murderer, etc. The second site, I know it is a blog, but it does pretty much say to those, like Rush Limbaugh, to define the term. And other than Limbaugh and a few blogs, I do not see anywhere notable or respectable this term is used. As I mentioned earlier, I will drop the subject, will not add this word, since from what I am feeling here, the consensus is not to add the word. Now, I will take this off my watch list, but if you guys still need anything, just let me know on my talk page. Zscout370 (talk) 00:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Islamist being replaced by Islamic

Noitall has been replacing Islamist with Islamic despite the template and the many discussions that have taken place on this page. I expect his changes will be reverted soon as he has not even sought out a discussion on this page to explain his edits.Yuber 01:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The term that is widely used in the West, which is what this article is about, is Islamic terrorism. The article describes that Muslims prefer a different term, which is appropriate and accurate. Even if the term is inaccurately used by the west, it is still the term that is used. As in many Wiki articles, the primary editors have a POV. This is contrary to Wiki policy. In addition, it is Wike policy to not simply do a reactionary rv revert just because you dislike one edit. Doing the reactionary revert is vandalism. Do not do it. My edit improved the article without a POV.

--Noitall 02:02, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Western media outlets also use such terms as "Israeli-occupation", but using that term in this encyclopedia is very contentious.Yuber 02:07, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The purpose of Wiki is to describe the term that is used. Wiki reflects the usage and anything else is an improper POV. It is also proper to describe any objections that others in the world have with a term used, but not to change the term used.

--Noitall 02:11, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The term "Islamist terrorism" is also very widely used in the west - even by Islamophobes like Daniel Pipes. I hope you have a better argument than that to offer. - Mustafaa 02:15, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)