Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Halibutt (talk | contribs) at 07:38, 6 June 2005 (→[]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:AN
• WP:ANB

• For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
• If you are new, try the Teahouse instead.
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead, follow the instructions on Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight.
• For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent.
• Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here.
• Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• If you want to challenge the closure of a request for comment, use {{RfC closure review}}

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search)

Tasks

In an attempt to streamline, I have created {{backlog}} (and accompanying Category:Misplaced Pages backlog) to draw admin attention to pages that require it. This is only intended for places that require an admin to resolve the backlog, e.g. VIP and SD. Please give it a try and see if you consider it helpful. I've cleaned all 'task requests' older than a week listed here (plus WP:G since it was indicated as resolved) and added them to the category. Radiant_* 10:04, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

• ...and added a link from the AN template. I hope people find it useful. Radiant_* 12:27, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Template:NoncommercialProvided

This template needs to be updated to reflect the current ban on noncommercial images. Could an admin please update this please? Perhaps a warning like the one on Template:Noncommercial? Thank you. 青い(Aoi) 10:04, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

General

Cut and paste move repair holding pen

There is currently a problem with deleting older articles, which sometimes makes it impossible to fix cut and paste moves.

I have created Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen as a place to hold articles waiting for this problem to be fixed (so their histories can be merged). (I debated created a category for them as well, but decided not too - there no good reason I can think of for gunking up their histories.)

I have linked to it from Misplaced Pages:How to fix cut and paste moves; if there's anyplace else it should be linked from, please do so.

If you run across more of these situations, please add them to the list there. Thanks! Noel (talk) 15:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There's another list of pending history merges at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#History mergers. You might want to merge the two lists and update the instructions at the top of WP:RM accordingly. Gdr 18:18, 2005 Apr 6 (UTC)

Oooh, thanks for the tip. Will do. Noel (talk) 16:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This apparently got done while I was off sick with the flu (just catching up on stuff now).

It's worth noting that to some degree, the holding pen has been replaced with use of Template:Pending merge, which adds things to Category:Pending merge: you're supposed to move the page needing to be merged to {Foo}/history, and add the template to the top of that. Noel (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there a place for non-admins to report cut and paste moves so that histories can be merged? I'm assuming that the Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen is just for moves where the block compression bug is an issue. The recent move of Stain (biology) to Staining (biology) is what brought this to my attention, but it might be a good idea to provide general instructions for non-admins on Misplaced Pages:How to fix cut and paste moves and/or Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 20:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, as far as I can see there isn't; we ought to have a place (and it ought to be mentioned on the two pages you list). One suggestion is a new Misplaced Pages:Requests for history merge page; another suggestion is to divide Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen into two sections: one for these requests from non-admin editors, and one for the those cases which can't be done because of the block-compress problem, and don't otherwise fit into the {{Pending merge}} system. Noel (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I've drafted a new version of Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen that incorporates the second section; it's in my sandbox. Thoughts? --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 16:29, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

That looks good. I'd consider chaning the title of the first section to Cut and paste moves needing repair or simply remove the word "Admin" - you explain at the top that it needs admin privs, and the current title feels unnecessarily wordy to me. Thryduulf 17:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Suggested template for POV pushers

What do people think about using this as a {{test}} template for new/anon editors that are making repeated POV edits? I know I've typed it on to a few talk pages recently, it also points out a useful policy that new editors may not be aware of that as far as I know isn't covered on any of the test templates:

Misplaced Pages has a strong neutral point of view policy, if you wish to make controversial edits please discuss them on the articles talk page. Continued insertion of POV opinions into articles may be considered vandalism, it is likely that your changes will be reverted and you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages

--nixie 07:56, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Like {{3RR}} (I only thought of checking for that after I found myself repeatedly saying things of this kind), this sort of thing has to be used with care. Simple vandalism is easily identified, but why 3RR violations and POV material insertion are not allowed is harder to communicate.

This template could be useful for the very clear-cut cases ("George W. Bush is an imperialist mass murderer") that nobody should be expected to get away with, but then again, you can file this under simple vandalism as well, as it's clearly done in bad faith.

OK, all the naysaying aside for a moment, we can take a shot at this. In the spirit of being bold, I've created {{POVwarning}} where we can edit this to suitability. Since this is a "if you don't like it, you're free not to use it" template, I don't see this as reckless. JRM · Talk 11:25, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

I'm extremely nervous of this template, as it may well just become a weapon to throw in POV wars. Why is the 3RR stuff included? There is no necessary causual link between newbies/anons inserting POV materials and their getting involved in revert wars, or if there is, I have yet to see the data. And there is certainly no clear policy on banning newbies/anons for POV pushing, or at least nothing I can find in the policy. A personalised message, suited to the exact circumstances, would serve much better, IMHO. Filiocht | Blarneyman 12:43, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with everything you say. I've taken the liberty of copying your remark to Template talk:POVwarning. Please continue further discussion there. JRM · Talk 12:56, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

You might want to make it grammatically correct. Those are four independent clauses and need more than a period and two commas to separate them. Let's keep our templates literate. alteripse 00:23, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

You might want to look at {{POVwarning}}. JRM · Talk 03:06, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

Ok, Mr. Languageperson gives it a pass. alteripse 02:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there a way to check when a user registered?

Given the recent spate of impersonation, I thought it prudent to check the user list to see if there were any names close to mine. Of course my current account, User:Knowledge Seeker, and my previous briefly used account, User:Knowledgeseeker, are there. I was also surprised to find User:Knowledge seeker, User:KnowledgeSeeker, User:Knowledgeseeker2004, and User:KnowlegeSeeker (and even User:Knowledge lover), none of whom seem to have made any contributions. It is quite possible that I registered one of these by accident and forgot about it, although I don't think that's the case. I also realize that my user name is made of two common English words and is a common phrase so I may not be the only one to think of it (indeed, I was surprised to find it untaken when I registered). I am curious, though, if these names were registered before I joined Misplaced Pages. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:03, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I happen to have looked into this subject recently for reasons completely unrelated. Technically it's not possible to tell when an account was registered, but it is possible to tell when the user last logged in/out, which may be good enough in this case. You do need database access for that, though. It's possible a malicious/benevolent user deliberately registered these accounts to facilitate/prevent impersonation of your account. JRM · Talk 06:39, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

Thanks; I hadn't thought of that. I was wondering if I (or another administrator) should preemptively block these accounts, before they gain page move ability or are used for other vandalism/impersonation. But I wouldn't want to catch any well-meaning user with an autoblock, so I guess I'll just leave them for now. — Knowledge Seeker দ 18:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

you could register any variations that haven't been already created yourself to prevent malicious others doing so. Thryduulf 20:17, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't reccomend doing this. There are so many variations on a name that it is futile. BrokenSegue 21:44, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of only ones like replacing lowercase l with uppercase I in names, or introducing/removing spaces, but differences like changing numbers I agree is futile. Thryduulf 22:51, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism investigations

A couple of pages on my watchlist were recently vandalized. In addition to fixing the vandalism, I started to check the user's contribution list and reviewed their other edits for vandalism. So far, they have mostly been anonymous IPs with a pattern of returning to commit vandalism every few months. As a notice to future reader/editors doing the same thing, I've started adding a notice on the anon user page saying how far I took my investigation. My hypothesis is that if we can flag where the last investigation ended, the future investigator can start from there and won't have so much rework.

Right now, I'm using a variation of this notice. Is there a better template already out there? If not, can anyone help me improve this wording? Rossami (talk) 15:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

==Vandalism investigation== A user from this IP address has recently been committing vandalism against Misplaced Pages. The edit history shows that this IP has also been used by well-intentioned Wikipedians making quality edits. The edits up to and including the edit at <timestamp> to <articlename> have been reviewed and the inappropriate entries have been reverted. Future investigations may begin here. ~~~~

Block not working?

From the block log:

08:55, May 9, 2005 UtherSRG blocked "User:38.139.36.117" with an expiry time of 1 week (talk:Main Page vandalism)

But as you can see the user's contributions show a few bits of vandalism on the 10th and 11th. I reblocked for another week before I was aware the previous block. There were no unblocks in the meantime. What gives? - Taxman 17:42, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

That is pretty odd. According to the log this user was never unblocked, but they do indeed seem to have made some edits after the block went on. Maybe some sort of database glitch lost the block? Curious. Noel (talk) 20:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed the same thing with User:210.0.177.84 they were blocked for a year on the ninth but they edited today. BrokenSegue 03:43, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

What's going on with deletions?

When I try to delete a page, I get an error message twice before the deletion takes. When I try to look at a deleted page, it takes FOREVER before the page comes up. No other edits are taking this much time. RickK 23:42, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Not sure. It's working for me now (two minutes after your post) but I was having a similar problem yesterday. Antandrus 23:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm getting bug slow downs on deletions and checking my watchlist--nixie 23:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Same problem here. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 00:11, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I get the same thing. At this point, I give it a few seconds, then cancel and try again until it goes through. Everyking 00:44, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Yup, similar deal here. One error, and then things would delete normally. Oddly it seemed to be exactly one error. No more no less. Every delete was taking two tries. Isomorphic 04:38, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

It occasionally happens to me, too, but about half of my deletions go through without problems. I didn't check the MediaWiki sources or study the setup, but as I understand it, this is just an indication of server overload. If the database request times out (i.e., the servers are so slow that they can't perform the request within some reasonable time, which itself is probably defined by the MediaWiki software or its configuration), the transaction is cancelled and you get an error message. For deletions, just retry; for edits, check the page history or your own contribution list to see whether the edit took despite the error message. Lupo 06:54, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

A wild guess, but databases are often limited by hard disk I/O. On the first try you probably succed in getting most of the needed database structures into RAM cache on the DB server (but the transaction doesn't quite make it in time). On the second try the needed DB structures (or most of it) are already in the RAM cache and the transaction finishes quickly. Thue | talk 08:13, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Over the last few days I've been trying to empty Category: Candidates for speedy deletion once a day. I've had this problem for about one in three deletes, sometimes taking up to four attempts. Filiocht | Blarneyman 08:32, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Worse today: three out of seven gave problems. Filiocht | Blarneyman 08:46, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

It's definitely a load issue, and I don't think the number of retries is anything but mostly random - I've had to retry up to 5 or so times on some of the redirs I deleted this morning. (I.e. there's not some bug so that the first one always fails, and the second always succeeds.) Noel (talk) 15:56, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

It's still a problem. Not a big problem, because I just keep trying till it happens, but it's strange that only deletes have this problem. RickK 07:40, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Deletion (e.g on VfD) housekeeping

Can I remind people when they delete pages (e.g. from VfD) to please hit "What links here", and check for things that point to the page you're deleting? Redirects to it need to be deleted as well (we've had a flock of redirects to VfD'd entries on RfD recently), and it would be good to check for dangling links in articles as well. Thanks! Noel (talk) 15:56, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

• I've suggested that a dangling redirect pointing to a VfD'd article should be valid candidate for speedy deletion over on Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion. What think you? --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 23:11, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
  • They're already speedyable. The point is that it's a lot more work if the person doing the VfD doesn't do them when they do the page; someone else has to find them, and (probably) list them on RfD to get them deleted. Noel (talk) 21:09, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

POV-pushers with DHCP pools

So once again (see, e.g WP:AN/I#User:SummerFR) we are having problems with POV-pushers coming in as anons from DHCP pools, which make it a lot of work to deal with them (and there's always the issue that a range block might impact innocents). So here's a suggestion: add another flag to articles which, when set, allows them to be edited only from logged-in accounts. We would set this flag only on articles which are the target of POV-pushers, and they'd be then forced to sign up for an account, which we could block. (Yes, they can sign up for another account, but that's still a certain amount of work, and we already have sock-puppets to deal with.) Yes, yes, I know this is a change to our policy of allowing people to edit without logging in, but it's a minimal change. Also, you can think of it as being a milder form of Misplaced Pages:Protection - and like protecting, we can always clear it after a while, once the problem editor has given up. Noel (talk) 01:00, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

GFDL non-compliance

I've been corresponding with a Wikipedian (User:Amerindianarts) who is upset that his work is being ripped off by another site. Specifically, the site http://language.school-explorer.com appears to be using our content as hidden text in java code, so that it shows up in google searches but not on the page.

When the user emailed the site to complain, they responded by trying to blank the Misplaced Pages article! (See the history of Zuni language.) Between their blatently abusive use of our content, and their attempt to respond by blanking our article, this is something we should not allow. This is a bit more egregious than your typical non-compliance case, IMO

Also, we need to create a good system for GFDL enforcement. We have a well-defined system to avoid infringing on other peoples' copyright, but none for defending the copyright of our own writers, and that is embarassing. Isomorphic 03:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

You can see the ripped text by looking at the google cache. If warnings and threats don't work what power do we really have? We don't have a legal team to protect the content. I'd say just send more emails and hope they get scared. BrokenSegue 04:25, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I guess I didn't understand. This website is mirroring all of our pages in this way even our ipblock list. This is quite a serious violation. BrokenSegue 04:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, and made more serious by hiding the fact that they do it. They obviously know they're in violation. We can't let this go. Isomorphic 04:49, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Although I agree that the blanking was an inappropriate act, I don't see that they're in violation of copyright. It clearly says "." at the top of the page, and has a link back to our Zuni page at the bottom of the page. RickK 04:59, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

The violation is that you'll never see that notice if you go to their site. The text shows up in google, but if you click through to their site, it doesn't show up. Try it for yourself. Isomorphic 05:40, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I never get to the article when clicking through, and I can't figure out how to find it when I go the site. All I get is the Home page. RickK 09:02, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's the point. That's how we think they designed it. The articles are hidden in java code and never actually display. But google can see them, so they bring in traffic. Isomorphic 09:29, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't think they are hidden in Java code - I looked at the HTML source I got back from clicking through to the site from a Google search, and the article text was nowhere to be seen. I suspect that they do is look at the source of the query, and if it's Google or Yahoo or whatever they give them back the Misplaced Pages page content, and if it's someone radom they give them their advertising page. Noel (talk) 04:17, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there any value in making Google aware of this specific sort of gaming? Pcb21| Pete 11:08, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Good thought. Yes, it would be worthwhile. Google tries to tweak the algorithm against various abuses. How would one go about making them aware, though? They have talked with us in the past.. perhaps we should ask Jimbo to send them a note? They pay attention to him, for sure. Isomorphic 16:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I think this is the correct page to report abuses like this. Should Jimbo send it? Or just anyone? BrokenSegue 17:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

the page for yahoo BrokenSegue 17:30, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I have submitted spam reports to both Google and Yahoo. Isomorphic 16:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I might add that this article is listed on my website, stating that it is freeware to be used and not abused with a link to the Wiki article and referencing GDFL and gnu.org, so copyright infringement is a stretch. However, whatever language school explorer is doing is abusive according to GFDL, and is dangerous for intellectual property rights all across the web. I have contacted Google twice in the past week in regard to this issue and they are usually very consciencious taking action towards those spamming the search engines and using hidden text. I think that perhaps a word from Jimbo would carry more weight. It may not be java code. It could be an ROR format where only the robots can find their text pages. That is purely speculation since searches for their ror.xml and articles.xml still bring up the home page (without a 404 error). Amerindianarts May 15, 2005, 18:14 CST, I think. What is UTC?

• Oops. I just noticed that this page is for administrators only. Sorry.Amerindianarts
  • Actually, it isn't. As some text buried somewhere near the top of the page says However, any user of Misplaced Pages may post here. We're not an elite club, just normal editors with some additional technical means and responsibilities. Anyone is free to use it to talk to admins as a group. Please feel free to leave a message. --Calton | Talk 00:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

In regard to the comments made above thus far, I would like to summarize: It doesn't matter how school-explorer is doing what they are doing. The point is that Misplaced Pages articles are freeware but school-explorer is restricting access to the information while using it for self-promotion with profit as an objective. Mirror sites are for profit, they have click-through ads everywhere, but they do not limit access to the information they promote via search or webpage content. School-explorer limits access to the information they advertise to provide and because it is freeware that is this information, they are blantantly non-compliant according to GFDL standards. Freeware is no longer free. It is unethical, maybe criminal, definitely non-compliant, and I cannot emphasize enough the precedent this may set across the web in regard to intellectual property rights if it is allowed to go unchecked. School-explorer could fix the problem by simply putting the text on their pages with the proper references, but have yet to do so. Maybe administrators should deluge Google with complaints expressing these very sentiments. Amerindianarts 01:43, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Was everyone aware of this:Misplaced Pages:Standard GFDL violation letter? Does someone have the contact information for the infringer? If you have the correct legal address and those violation letters have been sent I could probably get a follow up letter from a law firm sent and I'd also be willing to do the legwork to sue on behalf of the Foundation if it came to that. Copyright law says I can sue in my jurisdiction. Costs alone for them to defend a suit like that would mean they would likely fold quickly. Since they are infringing multiple copyrights, they could be sued from every jurisdiction if need be. Filing fees for a small claims lawsuit are about $60, which the Foundation could easily afford. - Taxman 20:54, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll have to research this more. It may have been wishful thinking that I can sue them here. It's also possible I'd have to sue in district or circuit court, with slightly higher fees, but that's not a big deal. Perhaps someone in the Netherlands can call the below number and/or dig in more to find their real location. The link at the bottom of their pages "by WEC" links to what presumably is the pages designer http://www.w-e-c.nl/ Their contact link seems valid, and they may be able to get real contact info for the offender. - Taxman 04:00, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

I wrote jacques at w-e-c.nl . I sent him a copy of the GFDL non-compliance letter, but this letter does not fully address the situation, i.e. using Wiki articles as hidden text, so I had to add a postscript explaining that hidden text is unacceptable (which it is according to Google, et.al.). They may have the correct references on the hidden text, but this is still non-compliant. I also wrote the owner address below, which may be the same individual. Amerindianarts 18:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Whois search for school-explorer.com yielded:

• domain: SCHOOL-EXPLORER.COM
• owner-address: geen
• owner-address: Web Exploring Consultancy
• owner-address: Dhr. J. van Nes
• owner-address: Boschdijk 256
• owner-address: 5612 HJ
• owner-address: Eindhoven
• owner-address: Netherlands
• owner-phone: +31.402801419
• owner-e-mail: d58c00a5a30f97986191f070fe730acd-855895@owner.gandi.net
• admin-c: DR63-GANDI
• tech-c: DR63-GANDI
• bill-c: DS145-GANDI
• nserver: DNS01.IP2.NET 212.125.141.134
• nserver: DNS02.IP2.NET 216.238.194.134
• reg_created: 2001-08-16 06:33:19
• expires: 2005-08-16 06:33:19
• created: 2004-07-17 06:55:21
• changed: 2004-07-19 09:52:58

This may not be entirely correct. gandi.net is the hosting server in France with a server in New York (possibly) It is a maze. Amerindianarts 03:48, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I have received correspondence from security at leaseweb.com. They state that school-explorer is a 'customer of a reseller from us' which is confirmed by my whois research. They want to help but want a formal complaint with proof. I suppose that I can send a formal complaint via email? Proof of hidden text is going to be the difficult part. Suggestions welcome. Amerindianarts 17:24, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I hope you just sent the links people have given above. Then they can verify the hidden text themselves. Thanks for sending that and keep us posted. - Taxman 20:25, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a detailed account of Google page results for keyword phrases from wiki articles and their links to school-explorer.Amerindianarts 02:11, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The complaint has been sent. Anyone wishing to see it can email me for a copy. Amerindianarts 19:16, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Good. Keep us posted. Isomorphic 02:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The only thing that has happened thus far is it appears that Google has removed MY site, where the original copyrighted version exists, from the index. It may be that more is going on here than meets the eye. Amerindianarts 20:51, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

It may be that what this site is doing is within the bounds of the GFDL. After all, the version of their pages they return to Google does have the credit to Misplaced Pages and the link page. The version they give to other people doesn't - but then again, it doesn't contain the Misplaced Pages text either! But you'd think that Google would want to avoid these scams, and I also don't understand why they'd pull your page. Maybe they either don't get it, or they are still trying to figure out what to do, or something. Jnc 21:17, 21 May 2005

I haven't seen any credits thus far. I think that GFDL complaince means that access to the information cannot be limited. The "text" is not visible while they are using it, and the access is limited. Thus, it is not free. My interpretation is that this is non-complaint. I also wrote to Jimbo about this some time ago. Thus far, I am the only one to suffer and I'm doubting that Wiki really wants to do anything about this and my efforts are futile. Amerindianarts 22:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

The credits are in the copy that's cached on Google. IANAL, but I'm not sure about your argument about "access to the information cannot be limited .. The "text" is not visible while they are using it". Just because a site has some GFDL content on some pages doesn't mean that the GFDL rules apply to all their pages. GFDL rules probably only apply to pages that have GFDL content. Yes, it's really sneaky that the same URL (seemingly) returns different results depending on who's asking for it, but then again, plenty of sites do this (try looking at a page on a pay site when you don't have an account). I do think Wikipedians care, but it's not clear that we have any legal standing here - I thihk Google are the ones who ought to be really concerned, because if they let this hack stand, soon everyone will be using it. Noel (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I have to disagree. I think GFDL rules apply for educational resources and information. If you search for Zuni language and follow the school-explorer link there is entirely nothing about Zuni resources or information, nothing is offered in the way of instruction, plus it is a for-profit site. When I joined Wiki I expected to be edited, but I did not expect that the activity by language school would be tolerated. It may be best to pull my contribution and exert my right as a copyright holder.Amerindianarts 19:31, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah. Let me try to put it more directly. There's a good chance that Misplaced Pages has no legal way to stop them. I am not an intellectual property lawyer, so I can't say for sure, but that's my knowledgeable amateur first take (if in fact they are doing what I have guessed (above) that they are doing). Iff it's true that Misplaced Pages has no legal recourse with them, you can berate the Misplaced Pages community all you like, but it can't do what it has no legal grounds to do. Noel (talk) 20:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

PS: Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you can't "pull" any contributions you have already made. With you, on the other hand (and I understand the irony here), Misplaced Pages does have legal grounds! When you hit the "Save" button, you are granting an irrevocable license for use of whatever it was you just entered. You can edit it out, of course, but you have no legal right to stop someone else putting it back in. Noel (talk) 20:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, after what I have seen, I'm willing to take my chances with whatever legal grounds exist. I certainly have nothing more to offer Wiki. Hitting the "save" button is, as you infer, a legal contract. Legal contracts work two ways, at least. If you assert GFDL complaince, it is expected, as is its enforcement. If I expect enforcement when I hit the save button... well, you figure it out.Amerindianarts 01:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I still don't seem to be clear - let me try this another way. Your comments ("GFDL .. enforcement") seem to indicate a belief that language.school-explorer.com is violating the GFDL. However, if LSE is not in fact violating the GFDL, what exactly do you expect Misplaced Pages to do, and on what legal grounds? Noel (talk) 04:54, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

You are perfectly clear. Maybe I'm not clear. They are in violation. That is clear from my interpretation of the rules. I don't see how they can not be. However, It wouldn't be worth it for Wiki to pursue it on legal grounds. Maybe someone from Wiki with some clout has contacted Google, but I wouldn't know it. That may help. Maybe LSE has permission from WIKI to do it. I wouldn't know that either. One very essential point of the rules is that the text not be changed (don't know that it has, but don't know that it hasn't, it's hidden). Even more essential is the part that use is maintained for informational and educational purposes. If you search for "zuni language", "zuni worldview", or "zuni world view", you get three different descriptions, all verbatim from Wiki, but the source page of LSE has no info on zuni. It is not on their language menu. They don't offer any resources for instruction. There is not one single reference to the language on the supposed "Zuni" page, which is a file in their "/info/" folder. It doesn't take rocket science to see the violation. I'm through here. Finis. I am going to concentrate on persisting with Google. The others will follow if Google takes a position. Amerindianarts 11:10, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

School-explorer has changed their cache page from the article on /Zuni_language to the article on the /Zuni. They do reference Misplaced Pages on the cache page. I don't remember seeing the references on the cache page before. Still, however, the text doesn't appear on the search page results which is illicit, but Google doesn't appear to be concerned with it. Neither does Wiki, as I have gathered from email correspondences with the Misplaced Pages information team. 64.136.26.235 20:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Special:Upload message is wrong

If you do not want to use the GFDL, you must upload your files to the Wikimedia Commons.

This is nearly the opposite of what it should say. Suggested change:

If you do not want to use a free license, you must not upload your files to the Wikimedia Commons.

where WIkipedia:free license is either written or points to a suitable explanation page. Lupin 20:03, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

We have an article, Free content, which I think would be a suitable target, so we don't have to write a new article. I'm not sure your suggested text is less confusing than what's there now, though... Noel (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

What he is trying to say is that all images uploaded to the english wikipedia must be under the GFDL. If you want your image to only be licensed under fx a creative commons license you can't upload it here, but can upload it to the commons and have a choice of a free license (I don't know if this is official policy, but that's what is it trying to say). I agree that the current wording can be read the wrong way.

You can edit the message at MediaWiki:Uploadtext. In generel, system messages can be found via menu->Special pages->System messages. Thue | talk 22:36, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

That can't be all true because fairuse isn't GFDL compliant. Also you can upload images under GFDL compliant coyprights like creative commons (or PD) and not license under GFDL. At least that was my impression. BrokenSegue 22:50, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

You can edit the message at MediaWiki:Uploadtext.

No, I can't since I'm not an admin. Hence I'm asking here for someone to fix this (it's still hopelessly confusing and perhaps deleting the offending sentence would be an improvement). Lupin 16:44, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Why not? - the page isn't protected. Thue | talk 20:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

MediaWiki: is special - it's hardcoded in the programming so that only admins can edit any page there. (I.e. the setting of the protected/unprotected flag is immaterial.) Noel (talk) 20:41, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to:

• If you want to use an exclusive free license other than the GFDL, you must upload your files to the Wikimedia Commons.

-- AllyUnion (talk) 19:44, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

That definently makes the intended meaning clear. Thue | talk 20:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Help merging pages

Hello, can I please request admin help regarding the discussion here: User talk:NevilleDNZ#Duplicate talk page?. The user accidentally duplicated his talk page and now wants to merge the two fragments and their edit histories. Thanks in advance for your help -- FP 08:36, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Policy/guideline/etc

With a couple of others, I've deprecated Template:Notpolicy and Template:Semi-policy. Most relevant Misplaced Pages pages are now classified in Category:Misplaced Pages official policy, Category:Misplaced Pages guidelines, Category:Misplaced Pages policy thinktank (which is proposed for renaming to 'policy proposals') or Category:Misplaced Pages rejected policies (or, possibly, Category:Misplaced Pages style and how-to)

Since the admins here respresent a large amount of knowledge of procedure and history of Misplaced Pages, I would request that some of them here look over one or more of the categories, and see if there's anything in the wrong place. There probably isn't anything controversial, I hope. Thanks for your time. Radiant_* 09:15, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Category:Philippine Writers

Can this be fixed ? There are two Category:Philippine writers The other one is accessible from the redirect of List of Philippine Writers. Please merge. Thanks.--Jondel 06:44, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

New image speedy deletion criterion

This was added to Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion based on the linked mailing list notice posted by Jimbo.

Images licensed as "for non-commercial use only" or "used with permission" which were uploaded on or after May 19, 2005. link

Any previously uploaded images should be replaced with free images and then put through the WP:IFD process. -- Netoholic @ 05:14, 2005 May 20 (UTC)

• What about images tagged as {{noncommercialProvided}}? Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:05, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
• And what about {{Ordnance Survey Copyright}}? --cesarb 12:52, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

New page

Could someone add my dog mine article to the newest article page? Thanks. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:08, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

• It's on ]. Did you want something else? Filiocht | Blarneyman 09:11, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I was kind of thinking of the front page template. Isn't that locked nowadays? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:55, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
    • You mean, you don't know how Did you know works? I'll have to change my vote! :-) You propose new articles at Template talk:Did you know. But frankly said, dog mine may be a tad short... Lupo 15:26, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

{{PD-US}} and {{PermissionAndFairUse}}

Does anybody know why Template:PD-US and Template:PermissionAndFairUse are protected? I ask because I was thinking about changing both of these templates' layout so they look more like the other public domain and fair use image tags, respectively. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:33, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Likely for legal reasons. All our copyright pages are protected for that reason, it's safe to assume that template pages which relate to copyright are protected for the same reason. I'm not certain what you want to insert, but I will gladly do it for you. Please let me know on my talk page. Or you can leave a copy of the formatted template on this page and let some other administrator do that for you. -- AllyUnion (talk) 08:43, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

This is low priority, so I won't really go into much detail now. But I was thinking that {{PD-US}} should look similar to {{PD-USGov}} and {{PermissionAndFairUse}} should look similar to {{PD-US}}, in terms of generally look and layout. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Both of those are heavily used templates. So changing them will kill the cache for thousands of pages. That could be one reason why they are protected. --mav 02:14, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Anyone else getting previews when they hit submit?

It's really annoying. Especially if you then hit submit AGAIN and it replaces the entire article with the section you just created... - Ta bu shi da yu 11:49, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

...or doubles the length of the whole article, or tells you you're in an edit conflict with yourself. Yes, it seems to have been happening a lot lately. ISTR someone writing on the VP about that, too. Can't help but wondering if it's connected with the peculiar things that have been happening when you try to delete articles - you quite often get an error the first time and have to do it again. Any techs here have any idea what's going on? Grutness...wha? 11:55, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I think something somewhere is out of sync.Geni 12:02, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

My sense is that the delete problem (#What's going on with deletions?) is mostly a server load issue, and I don't think it's related to this - I have been seeing this "preview when you hit submit" problem for some months now, and the delete problem just got bad recently (IIRC, at the same time when the block-compress delete bug was fixed, so there may be a connection there). There does seem to be a load-related component to the preview problem (i.e. it's worse when the servers are loaded) but I suspect it's a separate bug, just one that is also more likely when the system is loaded. Noel (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Yep, I have seen this firsthand. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:32, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes. The thing to do when it happens is to hit preview before trying to submit again. That usually works - SoM 20:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Cut and paste move

Could someone fix the cut and paste move at Eastchester, New York? Thanks. --W(t) 03:14, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

Talk:Elizabeth Morgan

I'm not sure what to think of this situation, nor whether any action needs to be take. It's an article Talk page which seems to have been taken over by Amorrow (talk · contribs) (also editing from 204.147.187.240 (talk · contribs)) — see . Should it be Userfied, or just ignored? It's not doing any real harm, I suppose, but it seems an inappropraite use for an article Talk page. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Move it to the user page--nixie 11:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I have done, and the User doesn't seem to mind, but has happily gone on adding to it. Thanks. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Date of the deletion principles poll should be updated on Misplaced Pages:Recentchanges

The date of the deletion principles poll has been the subject of debate on Misplaced Pages talk:Schools/Deletion principles poll, and the outcome has been the consensus view that May 25 is too early to hold this contentious poll while the content of the poll is still in flux. Please could someone either remove the date from Misplaced Pages:Recentchanges or update it to reflect the current date of June 4th? (I am not an admin so am unable to edit pages in the Misplaced Pages: namespace). Thanks, Lupin 14:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

• By the way, what is a generic poll that isn't even proposing policy doing there in the first place? Radiant_* 14:57, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

• The date is still wrong. Please update it to June 4th as stated on the poll. Lupin 15:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for updating this. The phrase "a one-week review period" is now incorrect. Please remove "one-week". Incidentally, is the protection of this page really necessary? Has it been mass-vandalised in the past? Lupin 15:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Done. – ABCD 19:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

yes the page has been vandalised yes it is going to stay protected. The profile of that page is simply too high.Geni 00:34, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Moving considered harmful?

The text for moving a page says, "WARNING! This can be a drastic and unexpected change". Apart from the fact that it isn't nearly that bad (since it leaves a redirect and can be reverted by any experienced user) this warning, among others, is deterring newbies from performing page moves. Would it be a reasonable suggestion to reword it somewhat? I'm trying to educate n00bs in general on moving and merging, since some of them tend to VfD things instead and that doesn't seem right. Radiant_* 21:09, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Moving isn't considered harmful, but it is drastic. On the whole, I'd rather the warning stayed, in my experience new people moving when they shouldn't are more of a problem than them not moving when they should. Making the warning about copy+paste moves twice the size would have my support though. Also, having a move tab for new users and not-logged-ins with an explanation about moving and warning against copy+paste moving would be useful. What's more, it should be doable with only light hackery of the skin files I think? --W(t) 21:15, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

One thing that may need to be enlarged is the "check for double-redirects" bit. I don't know how many times I've come across a page move (the moving of Time (magazine) comes to mind) and people haven't bothered to fix double redirects. Evil Monkey∴Hello 00:16, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Please clarify what "double-redirects" are. I could guess, but would rather have it spelled out. Thanks. --Unfocused 04:29, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

If a A redirects to B, and B in turn is a redirect to C, you have a double redirect. The problem is that the software only redirects once, so if you go A, then you only get as far as B, not C. This is stop you ending up in an infinite loop. Evil Monkey∴Hello 04:48, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

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