Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Elonka (talk | contribs) at 03:37, 2 August 2007 (→Discussion: - reply to Proabivouac). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Elonka

Voice your opinion (talk page) (139/57/4); Scheduled to end 15:32, August 3 2007 (UTC)

Elonka (talk · contribs) - I think Elonka will be familiar to many of you. She was been a Wikipedian since September 2005 and has accumulated more than 30,000 edits to the project (including 20,000 in the article namespace). Elonka has shown a long running dedication to the project and a willingness to help out with a number of complex WP:BLP articles showing remarkable calmness in dealing with extremely difficult users. I have found her input and assistance with our article on Matt Sanchez (which some of you will know is a long running headache to keep the article neutral and discussion civil) over many months especially invaluable.

Elonka is a formidable writer of content – she has written or significantly expanded over 200 articles, and her work on Knights Templar brought that article to featured status and Dirty Dancing to GA status. On top of this she has gained experience of the various processes admins deal with on a day-to-day basis. She has contributed regularly to XfD discussions where the points she raises are sensible and help build discussion. Her deleted contributions show that she is familiar with the speedy deletion criteria and she warns vandals appropriately.

Elonka was previously nominated for adminship in October 2006 and you may wish to look at that unsuccessful request. It is my opinion that she has worked hard to address the criticisms raised in that RfA, but I will leave her to persuade you of that. What I will say is that it seems to me not unexpected that editors new to Misplaced Pages will makes mistakes and may misunderstand some of our policies and processes – that should be no permanent bar to earning our trust. I believe that Elonka is one of our strongest and most resilient contributors and that the project is missing out by not having her on our admin team. WjBscribe 00:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Conomination from Durova

When Elonka told me she was considering a second bid for administratorship I wavered between neutrality and conomination, which is an unusual fence to straddle. Her overall contributions dwarf those of the typical RFA candidate: multiple WikiProjects, GA and FA work, and over 30,000 total edits. There can be no doubt that she's a seasoned Wikipedian. What particularly caught my attention is her interest in helping the important and chronically understaffed WP:SSP noticeboard. Her skills as a professional cryptologist make a perfect fit for that work. And as anyone who's been asked to double check a sockpuppet investigation knows, it's far more efficient when the main investigator has the tools.

I am aware of doubts in other respects and I looked into those. Some of them such as the WP:COI matter were genuine issues when she was a new editor, but she's taken time to put that behind her (and I welcome editors who take a principled stand on that guideline to join me at WP:COIN). Among the more recent questions I examined was the naming conventions arbitration case, where not one arbitrator proposed a finding or remedy against her. Other situations followed a similar pattern: either legitimate but very out-of-date problems or instances where she acted within the realms of policy and common sense. Any editor as prolific as this is unlikely to please everyone all of the time.

So I've asked Elonka to be open to recall, as I am. She knows that if I ever see her misuse the tools I'll talk to her and if that fails I'll open or endorse an RFC on her myself. She, of course, is welcome to do the same with me. I hope this satisfies reasonable concerns. She has exceptional dedication and talent and I look forward to seeing this site get the maximum benefit from her skills. Durova 15:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:

I am honored to accept the co-nominations from two such well-respected Wikipedians. Thank you, and I look forward to being able to further help this amazing project that is Misplaced Pages. --Elonka 15:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Misplaced Pages as an administrator. You may wish to answer the following optional questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What admin work do you intend to take part in?

A: Several things. For example, helping out at CAT:SPEEDY. I've already done quite a bit of WP:CSD tagging, just as a regular editor. I also frequently participate in AfD discussions, and would like to expand this to helping out at WP:DRV, but am prevented by not being able to see deleted edits. That's the main tool I'd like. I'd also like to help out more with Requested Moves, and making edits on protected pages. Someday I would also like to have CheckUser access, as that's a task that I handle in my dayjob, and I think I could be very helpful on Misplaced Pages. I've also been watching some of the reports at WP:SSP, and would like to help out there in the future.

2. What are your best contributions to Misplaced Pages, and why?

A: I've done substantial work on hundreds of articles in a variety of subject areas. The article I'm currently most proud of is the one on the Knights Templar, both because I helped shepherd it to Featured status, and also because we're going to get it on the Misplaced Pages mainpage on October 13, 2007, which will be the 700-year anniversary of the famous arrests by King Philip IV on October 13, 1307. The article I'm next most proud of right now is on the 1987 film Dirty Dancing, which I've gotten to Good Article status, and I hope to get to FA someday. For a list of the others, check my userpage, where I've tried to maintain a list of all the articles where I've made substantial contributions.

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

A: I paid close attention to comments at my last RfA, and have done my best to improve my style both of editing, and dealing with conflicts. When a dispute comes up about an article edit, I move discussion to the talkpage, and do my best to build consensus on which way to move forward. In regards conflicts prior to that RfA, specifically about my block from January 2006, all I can say is that I was a very new editor at the time, and that though I still feel that a perm block was an over-reaction at the time, I also did not handle the situation as well as I could have. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures, as well as the entire RfC process. Because of my misunderstanding, several procedural blunders on my part had the inadvertent effect of making the situation worse. If the same thing were to happen again, I would approach a User Conduct RfC completely differently. I would also like to say that I have used the knowledge that I have gained about the RfC process, to help expand the instructions on the RfC page itself: Perhaps my own hard-earned experience can help prevent other editors from making similar mistakes.

4. What is your opinion of Misplaced Pages's WP:COI policy in light of concerns about this at your last RfA?

A: I am well aware of Misplaced Pages's COI policy, and I strongly support it. I have seen the damage that can be caused when those with a conflict of interest get involved in controversial situations. If I am working on any edit where I have any concerns about COI, I either show it to another respected editor and ask them if they think the edit is worth making, or I ask another editor to review any changes that I've made. And in regards to articles about me or my immediate family, I just don't edit them, period. My last edit to any of them was a year ago, months even before my last RfA.

5. How do you feel about Category:Wikipedian administrators open to recall?

A: I completely support it, and will definitely add my own name to the category. If anyone feels I'm getting out of line (which I strongly doubt is going to happen), just come to me and tell me. I have been listening carefully to the desires of the Misplaced Pages community, and intend to continue this practice in the future.

6. In what situations do you think admins should avoid using their tools?

A: One of my core principles is that with increased power, comes increased responsibility. Admins should never use their tools to give themselves an advantage in a personal situation, or even to take action against a user with whom they have been involved in a prior personal dispute. In such a case, it is always better that the admin get a third opinion. If you feel very strongly that a user needs to be blocked, get another admin's opinion. If you've got a strong case, they'll agree. If they don't agree, then you probably shouldn't be blocking that user in the first place.

A question from bainer (talk)

7. Under what circumstances should one ignore a rule?

A: Where the rules are getting in the way of "doing the right thing." However, I should add that if I do take an action that appears to be in opposition to some rules somewhere, then it's important that there's oversight of my actions. So "the right thing" includes both whatever admin action I took, and also requesting that other admins review that action. For example, if I do something that seems to be a serious violation of any rule, I should also followup with a summary of the situation at the Administrators' Noticeboard. Or in other words, IAR is something that might be invokable in an emergency of some sort, but that doesn't free the admin of the responsibility for their actions. Everyone's activities, including mine, should be subject to later review.

Question from Deiz

8. Several sections on the biographical article Elonka Dunin, notably the biography section, are apparently unsourced, or at least not supported by inline citations. How should this be dealt with?

A: Well, since I'm not the one who should be editing the bio in the first place, I'm not really the right one to be asking, per WP:AUTO. However, as the subject of the bio, I can affirm that all of the info there is accurate, and does have sources, either in major press or my own autobiography. If someone would like to take on the job of updating the bio, I'd be happy to work with them to point out the appropriate sources for any problematic section.

Question from Nihiltres

9. What are your feelings about the article about you? Please explain your position on the subject. This was a major issue in your last RfA. (Note: this question is highly subjective, you are especially free to decline.)

A: Erm, my understanding is that I already answered this question via my replies to questions #8 and #4. If you need further clarification, please let me know? --Elonka 22:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions from SMcCandlish (talk)

Withdrawn due to lack of response, attack-dog candidate supporter behavior, and having found my answers elsewhere. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

10. In your own words, what does and does not constitute disruptive editing (including wikilawyering, which is defined as a form of DE, and disruption to make a point) – where do you draw the line? — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 23:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: I am acknowledging that this question was asked, and then withdrawn. If you'd like to post an alternate version of the query, please let me know. --Elonka 22:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I ack your ack, but even brilliant answers to these wouldn't assuage the other concerns I have. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 23:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

11. Selecting one item listed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion that has a strong majority !vote count to delete, but on faulty justifications (misunderstanding of policy, "I don't like it", etc.), explain, citing relevant policies, guidelines, procedures and/or precedent, why the article should be kept (alternatively, invert delete and keep; or select a CfD, TfD, or MfD instead if nothing in AfD seems to fit this pattern, though that is highly unlikely; or select an AfD that has already closed as "delete" that you think should not have been, and has not been sent to WP:DRV yet. Please keep your personal opinion of the subjective value of the item or its topic out of the equation, as this is a demonstration of administrative not editorial judgement, of something you would close as keep (or no consensus at worst) on the basis of policy and the basis that a "consensus" of inapplicable nonsense is not a consensus.

I don't normally butt into these, but Q11 is one of the most loaded questions I've seen. This could take hours to do! You are in effect asking the candidate to go and judge the consensus on just about every AfD in an effort to answer your question, and if they can't find a suitable one, hell, they should move on to MfDs. With the greatest respect to SMcCandlish, Elonka, if you're listening, I wouldn't bother. Ryan Postlethwaite 09:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought the same thing, and asked SMcCandlish if they wouldn't mind simplifying it, or suggesting an appropriate discussion to evaluate, request politely declined. Deiz talk 09:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds rather a bit overprotective. I used the same questions at load of RfAs today, and plenty of hopefuls rapidly asnwered them. I was hardly the originator of this line of questioning (and the version I got didn't even have any options available). I think you are reading it too way too literally. It doesn't mean literally read every single AfD there is, it means look around for a landslide of obvious "me too", "I don't like it", "I don't know it", etc. type reasoning, with a handful of well reasoned opposing !votes that are based in real policy and explain what the faults are on the wrong-headed majority side. This is really a pretty darned basic excercise, and is directly reflective of what real admins have to do. And really only takes a few minutes to find one – just in the rash of new Harry Potter cruft AfDs there's a lot of emotive loveit/hateit nonsense "arguments" (noise) being presented, on both sides. And she can can invert it and look for a landslide of boneheaded "keeps", doubling the odds of finding one, or go to TfD (hint, hint - many of the arguments in there are frequently way off-kilter; easy pickings). I had one candidate report back with a landslide but wrongheaded merge, which was just as interesting. So, like, don't get all perturbed please. :-) — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 12:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Any further discussion of this should please go to User talk:SMcCandlish#RfA questions; protracted commentor-to-commentor debates on RfA pages aren't a Good Thing. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: I am acknowledging that this question was asked, and then withdrawn. If you'd like to post an alternate version of the query, please let me know. --Elonka 22:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions from Matt57 (talk)

12. We've had some discussions on this before but people should see this too. You've supported replacing the Kaaba image or putting a show/hide option because its offensive to some editors (who are obviously not typical Misplaced Pages readers). When you're an admin, are you going to repeat the kinds of judgements you've made on the Kaaba image or will you respect WP:CENSOR? --Matt57 02:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

A: I respect all Misplaced Pages policies, including WP:CENSOR, WP:CONSENSUS, and the WP:UNDUE portion of WP:NPOV. In this particular issue, as regards the issues of images of Muhammad, I feel that the issue fell into a grey area in between conflicting policies. As such, since there were good faith objections, I felt that it was worthwhile seeking if there was a valid compromise position. But at this point, consensus seems to be clear that inclusion of the images is appropriate, and I am willing to support that consensus.

So you changed your own opinion of Replacing the image to keeping the image because consensus said so? Why did you decide on a Replace in the first place and why did you change your mind based on what other people are saying? i.e., where's your own judgement? You changed your stance on an issue depending on what people wanted. Thats not a good sign of strong independent judgement. --Matt57 00:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, people don't need to have strong independent judgement to become administrators. A.Z. 01:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Seriously?! —Wknight94 (talk) 01:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

A.Z., according to you, everyone should be an administrator. I guess that includes Willy on Wheels. --Matt57 01:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This issue has already been addressed on my talk page. A.Z. 01:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka and I had considerable discussions on this point so perhaps I can clarify (and please correct me if I misspeak, Elonka). Occasionally a situation arises where two different policy concerns intersect and a variety of opinions are valid, depending on how the editors weigh the relative claims of each interpretation. Mutual respect and consensus play an important role in those outcomes. Durova 01:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

There was no such thing as "two different policy concerns" in this case. All policies pointed toward keeping the image. --Matt57 01:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, at the Muhammad images RFC where I participated before Elonka got involved in the matter, I went on record with an opinion the anti-iconic tradition in Islam did hold water with WP:NPOV#Undue weight. A wide range of images exist beyond portraiture: location photos, maps, calligraphy, etc. That doesn't mean censoring out portraiture, just giving it a proportionate place in the larger context with a focus on the overall informative value of the article, with excess images of all sorts to Commons. If you'd like to discuss this further, though, suggest taking to talk. Durova 03:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Artificial arguments for the removal of images are invented all the time, but artificial they remain. Beit Or 19:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Durova, the UNDUE is a weak argument in this case and is actually not true. CENSOR is very strong in its application here. Please see this for details. --Matt57 20:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Question from Twenty Years

13. In the past, you have had some issues with Assuming good faith, making personal attacks, and making point/s. What have you done to adress these issues? 13:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

A: Um, no, I don't believe that I've had any trouble with any of those. In fact, it actually makes me smile to see anyone accusing me of making personal attacks, because if anything I think that I am over civil, not the other way around. ;) In fact, at least one of my opposers commented that I'm "too soft," heh. Anyway, if you do have diffs of anything that you have concerns about, please feel free to bring them forward. --Elonka 17:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This is yet another "Are you still beating your wife?" question. Pascal.Tesson 20:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I was merely giving Elonka a chance to reply to the reason many people who have opposed her on any of the three grounds i mentioned above. And for the record, I do not have a wife ;) Twenty Years 08:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions from Jehochman

14. Have you apologized to the people who you may have offended in the past? Have you made peace with the people with whom you've had conflicts. Why, or why not?

A: Wherever possible, I absolutely have gone back to those with whom I have been involved in disputes in the past, and tried to patch things up. My offered olive branch is not always accepted, but I do make the effort, and have frequently been successful. I could offer several examples of cases where my opposers in one dispute (Piotrus and PKtm come immediately to mind) became friends later on. --Elonka 17:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

15. Do you disagree with current CSD policy and if so, why? Do you think this policy needs to be clarified, and if so, what aspects could be improved?

A: I try to keep up on the latest changes at WP:CSD. When I'm on New Article Patrol and scanning through new articles, I generally pick articles that were created about 48 hours ago, and do some rapid scans. Most articles are fine, but when I do tag for deletion, tags that I use most often are probably {{db-music}}, {{db-corp}}, and {{db-bio}}, though I've also used {{db-spam}}, {{db-attack}}, {{db-empty}} and a few others. Whenever I have doubt about whether or not an article should be tagged, I try to tag with {{prod}} instead. If I were to ask for a strengthening of any particular CSD category, it would probably be related to music or sports figures. It seems often that I see articles flowing in to Misplaced Pages that are just creating a page for every single album of every single minorly-notable musician, whose only claim to fame may be that they were once briefly a member of a more notable band. I also see many articles that are little more than stats pages for sports figures who seem to be notable for briefly being a member of a more well-known team. These feel to me like a violation of Misplaced Pages is not a directory, but if the consensus is to keep those kinds of articles around, so be it. I skip those articles and move on to other projects. There's definitely plenty else to do!  :) --Elonka 02:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

15.1 Some people have expressed a concern that you've been playing fast and loose with the speedy tags. If you could speedy delete the articles yourself, would you hold the same criteria as you have with your speedy tagging, or would you be more conservative if a second person wasn't going to check your decisions?

A: Oh, I'll absolutely be more conservative. That's one of the things about a {{db}} tag, is that it's something easily reversible -- it automatically requires a second opinion. If I'm actually hitting the "delete" button myself, on an article that wasn't already tagged by someone else, I'm going to check and double-check and triple-check. When in doubt, I will not delete. If I have doubt, I can always use a {{prod}} tag instead. --Elonka 06:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Questions from Van helsing

16. Knowing you have an external link to your own website (www.Elonka.com) on your userpage, which is fine of course, I was surprised to see en.wiki actually still has 107 of them in total (including non-main space). For instance Beale ciphers carries 3 in one article, one in each section for books, references and EL’s. The EL to your book only gives a description of what to expect of its contents and... its price. You included them a long time ago when knowledge about the customs here were a bit "blurry", but they are still there. Are the mainspace EL’s to your website in accordance to WP:EL, WP:COI and a bit extreme maybe WP:SPAM guidelines? Should they even be (they are only guidelines)? How would you go about explaining a new user – eager to include his own website on several relevant pages, and smartly pointing to your own website EL’s – that his/her "informative" website shouldn’t be included because of WP:EL, WP:COI or WP:SPAM concerns? --08:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

A: You're right, the Beale ciphers page needed cleanup. There was no need for a link that was in the References, to also be in External links. And the link to the book site was not helpful to the article. I have removed both. As for the other links to my website, I think this points to one of the core problems with COI -- I am an acknowledged expert on some subjects, and as such am well-qualified to work on the articles about those subjects. But by working on the articles, there's a valid claim that I have a conflict of interest. And by sourcing something to my own website, this apparent contradiction in goals becomes even more obvious. I mean, of the links to my site, most are to real references. For example, I maintain mirrors of articles that have "scrolled out" of other news organization websites. Or I provide PDFs of old newspaper clippings. These are not to promote my site, these are just to make the information available. If you look at the actual links that are going to elonka.com, you'll see that these are mostly to these types of information resources. My love for Misplaced Pages is no accident -- I'm a natural historian. My website has sections on everything from tracking the history of my company, to posting the press releases on codes cracked by the Kryptos Group, to pictures of Saint Raphael Kalinowski (who I am related to by absolutely no effort on my own part, heh).

As for how I'd advise other people, it would depend on the link that they were trying to add, and how notable it was. It basically boils down to, "Is someone adding a link because their site already gets lots of Google hits on this subject, or are they adding a link because they want to get lots of Google hits on it?" Is the link trying to sell something, or provide a carefully-researched information source? Was the site already known for providing information, or is someone trying to "build the case" that it could be a useful resource? Has the site been mentioned in major press or other third-party sources? Was the information on the site non-neutral, or were there legitimate challenges to its accuracy? Those are the kinds of things I'd talk to them about, with the bottom-line being, "Misplaced Pages aside, did other third-party sources already think that this was a useful link? If not, then Misplaced Pages shouldn't be leading the charge here."

Lastly, I would like to say that any information that I have added to a Misplaced Pages article, is of course subject to review and change by any other Misplaced Pages editor. All of the information that I have added is sourced, though granted, some of it is sourced to my own website. If any editor disagrees that the source is reliable, then by all means, challenge it. If anyone sees a statement that they'd like to know the specific source for, then add a {{fact}} tag to it. If a source is not then provided in a reasonable amount of time (by me or by anyone else), then remove the statement entirely. The only case where I think I'm in disagreement here, is where some people seem to be asking me to remove information from articles, even though I know that the information is both true and sourced. I'm sorry, but I just won't do that. I am not going to take an action that would result in making an article weaker. That, to me, would be a clear violation of Disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. But if someone else has a bonafide good faith challenge to any information I've added, on any subject, please, feel free to bring it up! --Elonka 18:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Question from Gnangarra

17 Many supporters have indicated that your intention to be available for recall has swayed their opinion. Given that recall is entirely up to the user's discretion, as participation in this category is completely voluntary and editors can place conditions on their participation can you please clarify exactly what your requirements are. Gnangarra 03:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

A: That's an excellent question. I've actually been researching the requirements of other admins in Category:Wikipedian administrators open to recall. Theoretically, it looks like they're all supposed to put their requirements on their userpages, but in actual practice, it looks like most don't. I'm willing to make a commitment, but I'd also like to get some input from folks who might disagree with it. So how about this: My standards for recall are, "If 10 editors in good standing point out where they feel I have misused admin tools, I will stand for reconfirmation." If anyone would like different standards though, please bring it up at talk? I'd be happy to consider different options. --Elonka 05:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

followup why 10 when the recall suggests only six? Gnangarra 10:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Question from Matt57

18. Here you advised this anon: "For every talkpage message you generate about the dispute, try to have 5 or more edits on other non-dispute-related articles." Is it appropriate of an admin to give this advice to another editor? --Matt57 02:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

A: Well, it depends on context, but in general, I would say yes. Whenever someone is obsessing on a dispute, in my opinion, it runs the risk of being unhealthy. Several of the mechanisms about Misplaced Pages can easily lend towards obsessive behavior. I think most of us can sympathize with the occasional times of hitting "refresh" on our watchlist over and over, waiting for something new to happen on a particular page. If I see a user who's in a dispute, and I look at their contribs and see that that's all they're doing is focusing on that dispute, for days at a time, well, I worry a bit. I think it's a good idea to get away from a dispute, and go work on some other articles. Like JEHochman said below, it can be refreshing to work on some articles where there's a different emotional vibe -- where people are cooperating and are thankful for help. That kind of experience can be refreshing emotionally, and can also help give perspective on a dispute -- perhaps help someone think of a possible compromise. It can also help reduce the "sting" of sharp words from one direction, when you have positive comments coming from another. As for the specific number, well, I'm a numbers person -- they're easy for me to understand. But the exact ratio isn't really that important -- the real goal is simply to find balance, and recover one's equilibrium. And perhaps, in the case of a "problem" user, these other activities may actually lead to them becoming useful and constructive contributors. And then everyone benefits. :)

General comments

• See Elonka's edit summary usage with mathbot's tool. For the edit count, see the talk page.

• Requests for adminship/Elonka
• Requests for adminship/Elonka 2
• Requests for adminship/Elonka 3

• Links for Elonka: Elonka (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)

Please keep criticism constructive and polite. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review Special:Contributions/Elonka before commenting.

Discussion

• Consensus not numbers: I'm convinced that Elonka can be trusted with the tools, and I therefore propose that we promote her at the end of this discussion. --Tony Sidaway 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Er, that disregards the actual meaning of the word "consensus". If a lot of people disagree with something, then, by definition, there isn't a consensus. I personally agree that she can be trusted with the tools, and it looks as if she will be promoted. But if she falls below 70% support, then she should not be promoted - admin tools should be given out at the decision of the community, not the bureaucrats. Walton 16:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
    • To whom are you addressing your remarks? If you're addressing me, note that I am only proposing that we promote her, as are many of the other people in this debate. That hardly amounts to "disregarding consensus". We are the community (and that includes me and the bureaucrats).
    • On a minor niggle of mine, please avoid referring to numeric constraints to which the bureaucrats need not, and in practice do not, feel bound. --Tony Sidaway 16:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry, I misunderstood your original comment - I didn't realise your comments were a substitute for a vote; rather, I assumed you were advocating that she be promoted regardless of the outcome of the RfA. Please ignore my statement above. As for the numeric constraints, the bureaucrats should be bound by those, but we've had this discussion before. Walton 11:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
• Question 12 is quite loaded (Are you still beating your wife?), and I urge Elonka to ignore it. Sean William @ 09:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

  I'm in sympathy with this suggestion, but I don't see how the answer could reflect poorly on Elonka. Although I do not support her view on this matter, it does not reflect on her judgement on administrative matters. As one of the principal architects of the element of What Misplaced Pages is not that has become known as "Misplaced Pages is not censored" or WP:CENSOR, I reject the notion that that policy makes discussion points of the quality of this, or this, in any way unacceptable. Elonka is clearly acting in the highest traditions of Misplaced Pages, seeking a compromise that will allow all editors to be comfortable with the presence of an image that is very problematic for a significant proportion of the readership of that particular article. --Tony Sidaway 12:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

  I agree that Question 12 is quite loaded and unfair. However, as an admin, Elonka will end up thrusting herself into situations that are loaded and unfair and I don't see how avoiding the situation created by Matt57 as a way to deal with it. Subtly skillful handling of a situation does not always require directly answer the loaded and unfair question posed but may include addressing the underlying issue, including the hurt felt by the person posing the question. -- Jreferee 16:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

  I too would like to see that a candidate is willing to answer a question like that here. I would not judge on whether I agreed with the answer, but on whether the answer was reasonable and supported. DGG (talk) 02:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

  I have to pile on here. Yes, Q11 was an odd homework-type exercise but what happened to Q10 and Q12? Loaded or not, there's no reason not to give some sort of response. She had time to correct one of her RFA supporters today (meaning she's obviously watching this) but doesn't have time to address anything here? I'm having flashbacks to the selective answering days of the Naming Conventions RFAR. Maybe my first inclination to go in the Oppose pile was correct after all. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

  Despite leaning towards opposition, I wouldn't expect Elonka to answer question #12. It's an openly antagonistic question from someone whose mind is obviously quite made up. In my view it's best for candidates to ignore questions that openly assume bad faith; to acknowledge them diminishes the collegiality of the process. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

  I have no knowledge of what will be answered or when, but lets remember that these are all optional questions.... WjBscribe 04:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

A loaded question? First she opted to replace the image. Then she told me she's changed her vote to a Keep because that was what consensus was looking like. That means she was unable to give or defend her own judgement. How did she explain her opinion to replace the image? She told me later (something which she had never mentioned in public talks) that the image wasnt relevant. She knew she would be jumped on by everyone if she said this in public. Ofcourse the image was relevant. There are 3 key elements in the image: Muhammad, Kaaba and the Black stone and she was saying the image wasnt relevant for the Kaaba? Its not a loaded question. Yes she's polite and not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but the bottomline is that she supported taking off this highly relevant image from the article by either replacing it, or doing a show/hide option. Policy states clearly that Misplaced Pages is not to be censored. Bieng informative is our mission, not being offensive is not. If consensus was to write "lets all play with goats" in place of the image, is that what we'll end up doing? Was her attempting to keep the image off from the page an act of censorship? Obviously it was. She was willing and is still willing to appease a small minority of editors who found the image offensive, and thats wrong. If some of us hadnt been there, she would have happily taken off the image. Where's the mission to improve the encyclopedia? Basically she needs to stick to her opinion and defend it. If originally she wanted to do a Replace and now she wants to do a Keep because of what consensus says, what does that say about her own independent judgement? Not much. Again I havent interacted with her on other issues, but because of her, this image issue got stretched more than it should have and I didnt see her respecting policies (all the other couple of policies she cited are weak in their application, and she has never used them to defend her decision before in this issue and further they're just copies of arguments from other people who wanted the images out). There's a serious lack of her own indepedent judgement. I dont know if I should use this page to drill her more about her censorship decision but it was clearly really bad judgement on her part. Yes these are tough issues if you want to make sure everyone is pleased but in the end, its Misplaced Pages policies which have to be upheld in high regard. From her answer you can see that she's avoided answering my question i.e., she's not given any assurance that she'll respect CENSOR. I'll say without doubt that she has no respect for CENSOR and judging by her answer, she'll probably never have any. I'm sorry but I cant support anyone being an admin who censors stuff in the name of compromise and consensus. Thats not the right thing to do. --Matt57 00:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

In the last few hours Matt57 has been tagging the Dunin family articles for sourcing and notability. Durova 16:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Not the "opportune moment". --Van helsing 20:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Whats wrong with that? User Matthew must be a member of her family or a very close friend becuase he removed the tags very quickly. I'll deal with these articles later. It looks like some are not notable. --Matt57 22:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The named user was a co-party in the same ArbCom as Elonka, and was involved in the same anti-consensual moves which led to it. Beyond that, I won't comment, as this isn't his RfA. Orderinchaos 23:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Matthew and I are not related, and we have never met. We've worked together on miscellaneous articles, and we've disagreed on various articles. I cannot speak for what is or isn't on his watchlist. --Elonka 23:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• Elonka's not going to like this but I find this RfA vaguely reminiscent of Danny's (actually, I'm pretty sure Danny won't like that comparison either). Just like Danny she has been around too long, has made too many mistakes, big and small, has stepped on too many toes to have her RfA fly under the radar. Too many editors have long memories but I think "forgive and forget" is a more constructive approach to moving the project forward. I know these few sentences will get lost in the chaos here but just in case someone bothers to read it: let's remember that we are here to decide whether the net effect of sysoping Elonka would be positive. I think it's also crucial to remember that future editorial disagreements one might have with Elonka will barely be impacted by her sysoping: we all know that the easiest way to look silly in any dispute around here is to say "I'm an admin so that's that". Pascal.Tesson 04:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
• Elonka appears to have a solid and lengthy history of positive contributions to wikipedia and deserves adminship (which is supposed to be no big deal). Tim! 20:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
• Elonka, I suggest you clean up any past COI, SPAM or OR from your own page, as well as the pages of your family members, and any of the articles that link to your site. The fact that these problems remain in Misplaced Pages seems to undermine your candidacy in the eyes of some people here. If you are concerned about WP:COI, take a look at WP:COI#Non-controversial_edits, item 4.—Jehochman 11:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed. That would be enough of a good-faith gesture that I would remove my opposition entirely. It simply reflects poorly on Misplaced Pages if one of our long-term editors - let alone an admin! - has violated one of the core policies (meaning WP:OR, not the WP:COI which is unfortunate but not policy) and has let the violations remain for more than a year-and-a-half in some cases. Meanwhile we chastise and sometimes even block or indefblock others for doing the same. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm sure both of you mean well but it really is not up to Elonka to edit articles about here family members, precisely because of COI concerns. It is, however, her responsibility not to interfere if someone makes a good-faith attempt at cleaning up these articles and I don't see evidence that she wouldn't. I'd like to add in her defense that although she overreacted quite a bit during the AfD of Elonka Dunin, she was not the creator of the article and participating in a debate regarding whether or not your personal accomplishments make you notable is a rather akward position and she's not the first who saw her stress level rise on that occasion . As for the external links, I'm not sure if this has been cleaned up recently but in the 100+ links to Elonka.com quite a few are reasonably legit or are on talk pages where they were simply mentioned in discussions. Sure Elonka.com is not exactly a reliable source but for things related to her work it's fairly acceptable. Again, we should be concerned if she was systematically inserting these despite advice to the contrary and regardless of relevance but I don't think that there is much recent evidence in that regard. Pascal.Tesson 16:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
• Whoa, look at this. Looks like Elonka knows how to avoid COI issues. Just 20 minutes after someone created the article on her, she came and added links. This is about 2 years ago, but I saw this at other places too. One year ago, in Bruce Woodcock, an article she created, guess what - Bruce appears on the page an hour later to edit the page. Seeing that the behavior/attitude is the same 1 or 2 years ago, it would probably be the same now too. See the coordination she does to avoid COI problems? She probably has all these people on her IM. For sure if she ever gets to be admin, she's going to run into problems soon for poor judgement. She's here to pat other people's backs and get pats on her back in return. This is not someone who has any sincere respect for policies (add to that her recent utter disregard of WP:CENSOR with regards to the Muhammad images issue). They're here to make themselves famous and feel important. Judging by the huge number of unsourced and possibly non-notable family articles, that might be an understatement. After this RfA ends, I'll ask her to help me decide if any of the articles should be AfD'd. --Matt57 13:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  Whatever happened to assuming good faith? Yeah, I'm sure this is exactly how it happened... Elonka contacts Zippy off wiki and asks "Can you write my bio? Then I'll come in 2 hours later, add my spam and it will look perfectly fine since you started the article" (add mad scientist maniacal laughter). Seeing how this worked so well she later contacts Bruce and says "I've got this great idea to help you add spam to Misplaced Pages: I'll create the article and you can discretely add the spam an hour later. It worked wonders when I did this with Zippy". Give me a break... Pascal.Tesson 14:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  I havent even checked other articles, these are just the two that I found. Seeing that the duration between their edits is only 20 minutes in one case and an hour in the other, we can safely say that they were communicating something on the lines of: "Ok, you create my article first and then I'll come back later" and then "Hey! I've made it, there you go!", "Roger!" --Matt57 14:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  I'm sorry but you have no right to assume that this was done on purpose and in bad faith in order to circumvent the conflict of interest issues. Pascal.Tesson 15:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  Again, given that the differences between the edits were 20 minutes and 1 hour only, its safe to assume that Elonka was in communication with other editors for COI issues. She might have to be more careful now that I highlighted this. She might involve some other friends in future so this kind of thing is hard to detect. There's no way that 20 minutes and 1 hour was a coincidence. --Matt57 16:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  Matt57, I appreciate that you're doing a lot of research here, but please, you've really got me wrong on this one.  :) Yes there were off-wiki conversations, but they're not like what you think. I never encouraged someone to make changes. More often the off-wiki conversations involved me repeatedly and insistently telling the subject to stop editing their own bio. For a better timeline of what happened with Woodcock: I created the bio on June 12, 2006, at 18:45. He started making changes at 19:49. At 20:38, he even made a point of putting his site in ALL CAPS. I was actually running into edit conflicts with him, for my next expansion edit, at 21:52. At 21:57, I put a (gentle) warning on his talkpage (in combination with some off-wiki admonitions) A few weeks later, he posted some requested changes at the talkpage, including that he wanted certain sourced information removed. His requests were ignored, so a week later, he went in to his own bio again and added info about one of his upcoming talks. You can see another (mild) admonishment from me in the following edit summary. So please, don't assume that I was encouraging him to make those edits. It's actually quite the opposite, I was doing my best to rein him in. --Elonka 18:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  Thats what I'm saying. You created his bio and he came in an hour later. That means you were talking to him on IM or something so he could come in and make changes after you created his stub. Take my advice if you want: dont stand for an RfA again. It wont work. I will always oppose you until you admit that you were wrong in trying to remove Muhammad images and until you apologize sincerely. As another user pointed out "Her tendency to simply not consider that she might be wrong is a problem that I cannot overlook.", and unless you're willing to admit you're wrong, you'll never be an admin, trust me on that.--Matt57 19:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  Matt57, your participation in this RfA seems to be classic Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. Your dispute with Elonka over the Muhammad pictures issue is just one aspect of Elonka's Misplaced Pages participation, yet you stake everything on it and categorically refuse to consider any other evidence unless Elonka bends to your will. That's not the wiki way. If you feel that this dispute has not been resolved to your satisfaction, please take it to an appropriate forum. Jehochman 19:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

  I'm seeing it now. She tells the anon: For every talkpage message you generate about the dispute, try to have 5 or more edits on other non-dispute-related articles. - Thats advising someone else to be manipulative, isnt it? Thats what other people said too:

• "Elonka is a highly manipulative editor"
• "Shameless self-promoter, who has figured out how to manipulate Misplaced Pages"
• "Danny's claims of Elonka's manipulating Misplaced Pages for bare-faced publicity seem to have some weight"
• "she strikes me as manipulative and ego driven"

• You were one of her initial supporters. I'm going to ask you: If someone was an admin, is it appropriate of them to advise someone else to have 5 or more edits for each dispute-involving edit? This is teaching people to be manipulative and behave like trolls infact. It reminds me of another banned user (not naming him per WP:DENY). He'd hang around the reference desk giving advice to people and looking nice and then he's do the kind of trollish/abusive editing that eventually got him banned. In summary, she's teaching this anon to game the Misplaced Pages system, which is what other users have pointed out too. Pascal.Tesson (who tried to remove my comment) and you should both respond to this and tell me that this is not manipulative or gaming the system. --Matt57 02:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

  Come to my talk page for a longer discussion. In brief, I think Elonka is a mathematically minded person. So am I, which is why we understand each other. Some people think in terms of numbers, rules and patterns. She's counseling this user to maintain balance , using a formula (5:1 ratio) as a guideline. I recently gave similar advice to one of our administrators who was spending too much time on the noticeboards and too little time in mainspace. This condition, adminitis, can also affect non-admins. I've experienced it myself. Users must be careful not to become overly involved in disputes to the point that they start seeing bad faith where there is none. It's very healthy to edit different articles in mainspace where most of the users you meet are cooperative and helpful. Elonka is helping this user to avoid adminitis and reduce stress levels. That's a Good Thing® for the project, in my opinion. Jehochman 03:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Support

1. Beat The Nom Support - was thinking of nominating her myself. Walton 15:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Incredibly active, hard working, talented, and one of those editors who bear our project in their hearts with passion. I'm nothing short of awed by her amazing contributions and the high quality of her work. I fully echo the sentiments expressed by WjB above, and it's with pleasure that I support this request. Phaedriel - 15:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
3. Support, of course, per my nomination above. Durova 15:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
4. Support Elonka would make a great administrator. She helps other editors willingly and has made a significant contribution to many articles on Misplaced Pages. She gets things done, but does not act in an authoritative manner. I've found her to be fair, friendly, supportive and definitely someone I could turn to for advice on policy and editing in general.Gungadin 15:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
5. 10-plus year Dragonrealms player support Elonka would be an asset as an admin. ⇒ SWATJester 16:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
6. Strong Support, for extensive experience managing online communities as evidenced by this comment:, and for maintaining composure when I essentially suggested that she might have a COI (when she didn't). Jehochman 16:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
7. Support Seems like a perfect admin candidate. Pax:Vobiscum 16:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
8. Strong Support Not only is she experienced with many facets of Misplaced Pages policy and operations, but she handles sticky situations on a regular basis without becoming involved in conflict. Her skills and dedication make her a great candidate for the mop. Shell 16:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
9. Support I see no problems with this editor using the admin tools. (aeropagitica) 16:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

   Support. Looking at the previous RFA, I'm reminded that I've had some reservations in the past about her behavior in a conflict with another editor, but this was over a year ago. She's open to recall, and I'm inclined to believe that she'll take feedback from other editors seriously if there is a perceived problem. Friday (talk) 16:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

   Looking at some of the oppose reasons gives me pause. Given that I'd already had reservations, I can no longer support. When in doubt, do not promote. The potential harm of a bad admin outweighs the potential usefulness of a good admin. Friday (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

10. Certainly —AldeBaer 16:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
11. Support - There were some problems of self promotion raised during the last RFA, but as long as that's far behind and there are no conflict of interest issues raised in the future I'm going to support. Wikidudeman 16:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
12. Anyone questioning her commitment to and well meaning toward the project after reviewing her prodigious contributions, especially over the last year, need only be reminded that she has allowed herself to be subject to recall. Besides, the mop is "No big deal". And concerning the COI incidents, I think Oscar Wilde said it best: "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
13. Support. I strongly endorse this nomination. Elonka is ready for adminship. In a recent encounter with her, I found her helpful, and I agreed with her assessment of the situation. Plus she has a cool name... my's real name's boring. --Deskana (talk) 17:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
14. Support Like what she plans to do with the tools and the sum of her contributions. I've reviewed the reasons editors have not supported her becoming an admin in the past and they seem like they're over and done with. Darkspots 17:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
15. Support There is no doubt in my mind that the candidate is a respected and valued contributer but I have to admit this was not an easy decision for me. On the one hand, I personally consider WJBScribe to be one of our finest adminstrators and a person whose judgement I trust but, on the other hand, the fact remains that there were some serious issues raised in the previous RFA. I obviously agree that this should not be held against the candidate for all eternity but I also feel that it warrants careful review and consideration. Having said that, I also believe that one should not forget that ~9 months is long time (well, at least in terms of wikitime). I did skim over the last few thousand of the candidate's contributions (ignoring this month's), and while there's a chance that I might have missed something, I did not find reason for concern. I did pay particular attention to the points made by the opposing voters in the last RFA and didn't find anything of note (which is obviously a good thing). Hence, I see no reason not to support the candidate. S 17:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
16. Support - I've been very impressed with Elonka, she will make a fine admin. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
17. Support Good active friendly admin, will do a good job. Englishrose 17:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
18. Support - I read over the previous RfA & yes, all of that is well in the past now. Everything checks out, editor is kind, courteous, helpful and never BITEy. Definitely mop and bucket time - Alison ☺ 17:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
19. Strong support a nomination from WJBscribe and Durova? A fine candidate here. :) Acalamari 17:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
20. Support. Opposed last time, but record of contributions looks very good since the RfA. Was actually contemplating a nomination myself. IronGargoyle 17:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
21. Support. I believe that Elonka has a good attitude, and she knows policy. She and I have both edited Juice Plus, an article where she helped out by creating a neutral and properly-sourced draft of a contested article that had serious COI issues. Later, she set up a user-conduct RfC for an editor who some people thought was attempting to WP:OWN the article. So far, this is my only exposure to conduct RfCs and I think she handled it well. The article seems to be overcoming its problems, and the cited editor is still participating. EdJohnston 17:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
22. Support encore. --Fire Star 火星 18:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
23. Support - as per Ryan Postlethwaite..--Cometstyles 18:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
24. Support- per Phaedriel. --Boricuaeddie 19:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
25. Support - Garion96 (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
26. Support -- good editor, good answers to questions, q.v. Bearian 19:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC) - P.S. I was not solicited for my vote! Bearian 19:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
27. Support per Bearian, I am also liking everything that I see. LessHeard vanU 19:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
28. Support No reason to oppose, + Question 5 response: I don't think you'll have anything to worry about. --BsayUSD π 19:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
29. Support. I've been familiar with this user and her work for quite some time, and while she did have problems early on, most of that was due to her high ambition crashing her into a steep learning curve. I don't think that's the case anymore. Philwelch 19:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
30. Support Without my customary level of reasoning. It's all been said by the noms and the valued contributions above. For once, I have nothing more to add. Very best wishes. Pedro |  Chat  20:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
31. Support. Even more deserving than last time, which I scarcely thought was possible. —Xezbeth 20:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
32. Support concerns on the first RfA were completely blown out of proportion. Pascal.Tesson 20:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

    Additional comment: ironically, these same concern are also being blown out of proportion here despite a complete lack of evidence that the COI concerns are still present. Elonka's behavior in this RfA has been exemplary and for what it's worth I'm even more convinced than I was a few days ago that the net effect of her adminship would be positive. Pascal.Tesson 14:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

33. Strong Support All my interactions with Elonka were excellent and positive. Elonka is always ready to offer help, which is a quality I like to see in admins. I was recently seriously considering nominating her myself (if I weren't too bonked to do so). An asset definitely. —Anas 21:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
34. Support These difs indicate (as a small sample) an improved effort from what concerns were raised in the prior RFP: ,,.Best of luck! Hiberniantears 21:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

    Support ~ Wikihermit 21:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

    (Changed to Neutral.) ~ Wikihermit 02:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

35. Support. A great editor, with plenty of knowledge and experience. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 21:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
36. Support. Supported before, happy to support again. Nothing has happened in the intervening time to change my mind. Agent 86 21:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
37. Support. Every editor is going to get into conflicts and misinterpret policies from time to time; no one's perfect. When you have an editor as prolific as Elonka, the raw number of mistakes is inevitably going to rise. That she's been involved in conflict from time to time is also the inevitable result of all the work she's done. The only time she's actually seemed to get into trouble was with the COI incident, but this is all now far in the past, beyond even the timescale of ArbCom blocks. Forgiveness is a necessary part of working with others on Misplaced Pages, and especially for a mostly-innocent mistake such as this, we owe it to her. As for her behavior with regards to this matter since then, I've noticed that she's been incredibly careful. I can't fault her for stopping editing on all potential-COI articles, even if it leaves up her own OR claims. Stepping out really seems like the best option. Also, I'd like to point to this comment. Even though you'd have to bend over backwards to make a case that she had a COI in that issue, she made it clear upfront that the possibility was there. I don't think it can be any clearer that she's learned from her mistakes. --Infophile 22:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

    Noticed a canvassing template up, so for full transparency I will note that Elonka did inform me of this. However, this is likely in response to me making it quite clear I'd be interested in this process. Unless she also sent such e-mails to others, I really doubt this qualifies as canvassing. --Infophile 19:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    I don't notice that on your talk page. Can we assume that Elonka canvassed you off-Wiki then? —Wknight94 (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    I don't think so, dear Wknight. From what I gather, Infophile refers to his offer to nominate Elonka, and his realization that he wasn't experienced in RfA process enough to handle it. Tho it looks pretty clear to me, maybe a confirmation from Infophile could clear this for good? Best regards, Phaedriel - 19:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    I honestly hope you're right. But since Infophile specifically mentions e-mail ("Unless she also sent such e-mails to others"), I am now forced to think that Elonka has e-mailed all of her friends off-wiki to ask for their support. Distasteful at best. However, it would not surprise me much since I counted no less than six obvious or confessed meatpuppets at her first RFA: Rewtguy (talk · contribs), TheBigPicture (talk · contribs), Cwire4 (talk · contribs), 81.178.239.93 (talk · contribs), Sparr (talk · contribs) (who mentioned meeting her in person), and Aestetix (talk · contribs) (who admitted to working with Elonka). The trust level is sinking like a cement cloud. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Phaedriel's description of the situation is essentially correct. Wknight, please see what I said in my last comment to her on her talk page: "I'll be happy to help out and co-nom, though. Just let me know if there's anything I can do to help." I was quite literally asking her to let me know if anything such as this happened. What happened recently is simply that she e-mailed me saying that this RfA exists - thus letting me know that such a something had happened. See WP:CANVASS#Friendly notice - this qualifies as "an unsolicited request to be kept informed." And no, I am not an off-wiki acquaintance of hers (she used the wikipedia e-mailing system), and I have no reason to believe that she has contacted anyone else. --Infophile 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Well it makes me curious why she didn't just use your talk page but I probably already know the answer to that question. Now I wonder how many other people she e-mailed. You admit you've never spoken off-wiki and yet you got an e-mail. Surely her close friends were notified if you were! Hopefully she'll be honest about how many people she e-mailed and set my mind at ease. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Interpret it however you want, you have all the facts I can provide. In my opinion, she informed me of something I'd asked to be informed of; the specific method doesn't really matter to me. I don't know her specific reasons for choosing e-mail, and I'm not going to jump to the assumption that they're malicious.--Infophile 20:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    (reply to Wknight94) No, I am not doing any mass-emailing. And most of those supposed sockpuppets at my last RfA, I have no idea who they were. And if I would have known what they were planning, I would have told them not to participate. I'm fully aware that any sockpuppet or meatpuppet !vote here makes me look bad. Also, to be honest, if I make admin here, I want to know that I made it on my own merits, by consensus of the existing Misplaced Pages community -- not some artificial collection of voting blocks. --Elonka 21:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

38. Support. Your dedication to the project is phenomenal. J-stan 23:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
39. Support. Mackensen (talk) 23:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
40. Support. A genuine asset to the project and worthy of promotion. Nick 23:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

    Note: The above comment was added by 172.214.105.244 (talk · contribs), who has few other edits. --Elonka 21:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Maybe Nick forgot to login. --Matt57 21:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Yeah it was Nick - I don't think he was on his own computer so didn't want to log on. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

41. Support - dedicated, and I think that, even if she was denounced as "disruptive" by several editors, it does not mean that she has not learned. Will 00:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
42. Support. Excellent editor. Handled a troublesome situation on Gnostic Gospels very well. I think this is a no brainer and the votes reflect that. jbolden1517 00:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
43. Support Valued and experienced editor. I endorse the nominators' thorough scrutiny.--Húsönd 00:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
44. I wish I had my own article :P Giggy _UP 01:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

    Conversely, I'm really glad I don't have my own article! ;-) --Fire Star 火星 18:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

45. SupportShe has avoided editing her own article since at least October of last year, and that would be my only concern. Other than that, she is a great editor. i  02:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
46. Support. Elonka will unquestionably benefit the project if given the extra tools and I have no doubt she will use them wisely. - auburnpilot talk 02:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
47. Support. Elonka is an excellent example of a user who bumped her head into a couple of things in her early days but because she was given a chance and carried on she developed into an extremely valuable and thoughtful editor. I have no hesitation in recommending her for adminship. She has experience across the board and will use the admin buttons with wisdom and restraint. Haukur 02:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
48. Support. She's put up with a lot, and keeps coming back, improving every time. Side note: when I read the oppose reason that she was too soft, I nearly spit out my drink, that was the last objection I expected. Polite, yes, she's gotten better at that, but Elonka's never been soft. Maggie Thatcher has nothing on this lady. --AnonEMouse 02:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

    The issue in Oppose vote #3 seems to be trying to assume AGF rather than "oppose (on being) too soft" - The substance of the vote was actually a criticism of Elonka's call for censorship of the encyclopaedia. Zivko85 09:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

49. How-could-I-not-support-this-even-if-I'm-meant-to-be-on-Wikibreak support. ~ Riana ⁂ 02:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
50. The response to the psalm RfA is hell yes... Daniel 03:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
51. Support: I could definitely use some help at WP:SSP. I'm also favorably disposed toward admin candidates who contribute a lot of high-quality content. While some of the concerns raised below are significant, I think that being open to recall will provide a meaningful layer of accountability and assuages any concerns I have there. MastCell 03:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
52. Support: Elonka has shown herself to be a prolific wikipedian. I support her for many reasons, and most have been stated above. One that hasn't is her neutrality on the issue of images of Muhammad and her willingness to create concensus with users based on wiki policy.Bless sins 04:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
53. Support It is time to give her the mop. A very active editor as well. --Siva1979 06:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
54. Support Nothing in the opposition makes me doubt for a second not supporting you. Dfrg.msc 07:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
55. Support For some reason a few weeks back, I was looking at Elonka's prior RfA and remember thinking that it was unfortunate that it wasn't successful, and that's why I support so quickly. A great editor as far as I can see. daveh4h 07:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
56. Support Have personal experience working with this editor.--Alf 09:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
57. Support I'm fairly convinced she has her brain turned on. This isn't true of everyone. Subversified 09:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
58. Support (ec x2) The naming conventions RFAR was long enough ago for the behavior of the parties to be forgiven. No big deal. Sean William @ 09:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
59. Support, you should have passed previous RfA. @pple 10:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
60. Support - The Cone of Silence cabal says yes. - hahnchen 10:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
61. Support A good editor through have no interaction. Harlowraman 10:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
62. Support - In my time on Misplaced Pages, I have seen Elonka's name numerous times and have always been impressed with her intellect, cogency of argument, productivity, unpretentiousness and use of elegantly measured language, even under the most trying circumstances. I feel certain that she would be an excellent administrator. —Roman Spinner (talk) 11:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
63. Support - my opinion hasn't changed. Deb 13:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
64. Support Exceptionally qualified candidate -- this should have happened long ago. Xoloz 14:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
65. Support - Thought she was one. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 15:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
66. Support - Trustworthy and unlikely to abuse the tools. The oppose and neutral positions seem to generally agree with this assessment, but with different !votes. -- Jreferee 16:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
67. Support -Not swayed by the opposes. They might have been relevant for her previous RfA, but I fail to see how her earlier actions are still relevant now. Contributions now seem exemplary, and I see nothing to suggest this user would abuse the tools. And I've gone quite far back checking it out. Raystorm (¿Sí?) 17:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
68. Support, good editor. Everyking 18:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
69. Support I hear babies crying ~ Infrangible 18:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
70. Based on my previous experience with the user. -- ReyBrujo 18:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
71. Support--Duk 19:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
72. Excellent user, not convinced by some of the oppose votes that was concerns from an RFA from one year ago that she managed to fix in my opinion. Jaranda 19:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
73. Support - Elonka is a fine writer, and logical and articulate on the talk page. In my experience she has been open to reason, taking a thoughtful and mature approach to editing that I expect she will continue as an admin. Tom Harrison 20:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
74. Strong Support I had voted neutral on her last RFA. But that she has stuck with Misplaced Pages and made some excellent contributions has swung the vote to her.--Agεθ020 (ΔT • ФC) 21:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
75. Support - Excellent editor, more then desearves adminship Deliciously Saucy 21:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
76. Support. From what I've seen of Elonka's editing skills, she is one of the best Wikipedian editors we have here at Misplaced Pages. Not only does she do fabulous work on editing articles, but she keeps a calm attitude when addressing editors who are a little less than polite in expressing their feelings, and she even goes out of her way to assist newbie Wikipedian editors who would be more so lost on Misplaced Pages otherwise. She was also great with me in my first few days and weeks here at Misplaced Pages. But her assistance in making me a better Wikipedian editor is not the main reason that support her as an administrator here. I've watched Elonka edit Misplaced Pages on several occasions and am impressed at the hard work, devotion and seemingly inherent care that she exudes while editing articles here. I must say that out of all the great Wikipedian editors on Misplaced Pages who would be great as administrators, Elonka is definitely in the top ten. Flyer22 21:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
77. Support Maybe a bit too eager to reach compromise in my mind, but overall a grand editor, always remarkably civil.--Aldux 22:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
78. Support a great candidate --Stephen 23:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
79. Support. i was surprised to discover that she wasn't already an admin. i would also reiterate the sentiments expressed by Raystorm. ITAQALLAH 23:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
80. Support wonderful writer, good answers. Highly-qualified for adminship, no doubt at all. Peacent 02:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
81. Support Everyone should be an administrator. A.Z. 03:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

    Closing admin, please ignore this invalid vote. --Matt57 05:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

    Since I instigated a comment (though not this one), I'm going to explain what he means. A.Z. has participated in six RFAs today with the same "everyone should be a sysop" reasoning. In one case, someone commented that no, not everyone (such as Willie on Wheels) should be a sysop.--Chaser - T 05:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

82. Support Elonka is a high-quality editor, and my interactions with her have generally been positive. JavaTenor 04:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
83. Support. Just realised that despite having nominated Elonka I haven't supported her yet. I am unmoved by the opposition here - some strong allegation have been made and Danny's comment would in any other setting I think fall foul of our rules against personal attacks. Nevertheless no diffs have been provided to demonstrate recent conduct issues - those that have appeared are a minimum of 9 months old. My confidence in Elonka expressed above is unharmed, but my faith in the community is a little shaken by the apparent unwillingess on the part of some to forgive and move forwards. WjBscribe 05:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

    The ArbCom closed on 20 January - a fraction over 6 months ago. Zivko85 08:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

84. Support. Very helpful, kind, and reasonable. I watched her try to mediate an intractable dispute recently, and I was impressed by the respect she showed for the arguments, and her calmness and rationality. I think she'll make an excellent admin. SlimVirgin 06:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
85. Support Appears to be suitable for adminship overall.--MONGO 08:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
86. Support I was just reading RfA's out of boredom today, and this one caught my eye, so I did some research into her edits over the past several hours. To be honest, as near as I can tell, she's human, has made a few mistakes in the past, but has learned from them. Might she make a few mistakes in the future? Sure, she's not a bot. Nonetheless, I'd feel safe with her in posession of admin tools (and I couldn't even say that about myself right now). spazure (contribs) 10:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
87. Strong Support While I do not agree with her on everything, I would like to think I have gotten to know her over the past few months and I think she will do a fine job with the tools. EnsRedShirt 15:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
88. Support I have seen Elonka present Misplaced Pages to people; she is an involved, invested participant in this experiment. Let's let her take her participation to another level! -JustinHall 15:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
89. Support Why not? Politics rule 19:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
90. Support: Unlike (I strongly suspect) most of the Oppose voters, I've personal experience of Elonka's measure in an administrative, customer service position. We did not always agree, but she always expressed her position clearly and promptly addressed concerns brought to her attention. Perhaps I'm just peculiar in that her telling me "I disagree with you" doesn't by that reason alone provoke me to to believe that this capable, veteran administrator is somehow unfit to be an admin on Misplaced Pages.  RGTraynor  23:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
91. Support An established editor and a great Wikipedian. I had a small conflict with her awhile back, but she kept a cool head and I found her to be a pleasant editor. I think that her cool head will help her as an administrator. Pablo Talk | Contributions 00:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
92. Yep. Long history of commitment to Misplaced Pages. Sensible and flexible, coolheaded. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
93. Support. Much improved from her last RfA, which I had opposed. --Hemlock Martinis 03:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
94. That's so hot. Yes, I'm bringing back "That's hot" for my support, because Elonka is a fabulous lady, both in her work here and as a friend to me. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 05:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
95. Support. I've wrestled with this one for a few days now. The opposing arguments are very compelling, but after delving into the user's past history extensively, I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt. Trusilver 05:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
96. Support. I've never before participated in an RfA, although I do paroose this page from time to time. I was suprised to learn that this editor was not already an Administrator. After carefully delving through the evidence presented below, she has my vote and confidence. Mrprada911 05:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
97. Support. I was firmly neutral in the last RFA and later enumerated my reasons upon request. This user is a far better candidate now that in the last RFA. The tone of her writing suggests to me that much of this is from calculation about policy parameters, rather than indoctrination into wikiculture, but the two largely express themselves identically in action. I certainly won't say that someone who obviously actively thinks about their editing is not qualified to be a sysop. Rebecca's concerns give me pause, but speedy deletion is currently a sore point due to the ongoing backlash against the widespread aggressive stance on speedies. I personally am awaiting further policy/norm clarification on the scope of the October 2006 "shoot on sight" directive and I have no reason to think that Elonka won't also fit herself under whatever clarification may emerge. - BanyanTree 07:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Just a minor clarification - the problematic speedy deletions that I'm talking about have generally not been in relation to the BLP "shoot on sight" directive. Her pet targets tend to lean more towards places and organisations, which do not have the same imperative. Rebecca 08:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    I recognize that but this appears to me to be a cultural problem stemming from the corporate "shoot on sight" directive, which has been further compounded by the more recent "potential BLP problems trump all other concerns" clarification. The problem, in my eyes, is that RC and New page patrollers are told to ignore normal process to whack articles, but the norm quickly became to apply this to a broader and broader range of articles. Since the uproar last week of wiki-greyhairs getting their unreferenced stubs deleted, I'm waiting to see if Jimbo's stated preference for less articles and more quality means that he didn't actually want us to make sure that there was less articles through stricter application and liberal interpretation of the deletion criteria and process. As for how this all relates to this RFA: based off a few bouts at CSD in the past six months, nominating an article for speedy deletion that states "Foo is a bar" with no third party references, which I think is what Elonka is being accused of, might actually be considered a good faith interpretation of the observed norms. If one thinks this is a ridiculous perversion of the deletion process, the issue IMO are the norms at CSD, not any particular user. I therefore don't ignore your concerns, Rebecca, but one of the few points on which Brad's directive, e.g. "I am issuing a call to arms to the community to act in a much more draconian fashion in response to corporate self-editing and vanity page creation," is explicit is that it supercedes on-wiki policy, seemingly including proving that a page falls under the loose definition he provides. CSD thus needs to be clarified at a much higher level than an RFA. I am confused by the state of CSD and I am thus forced to give less weight to disagreements about CSD as examples of lack of fitness to be an admin. (P.S. I'm not a policy wonk so, even if a relevant clarification has already been offered somewhere, I wouldn't notice until it trickled down into a handful of guideline pages or the Signpost.) - BanyanTree 00:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

98. Support - seems to be a good candidate. --Aminz 09:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
99. Kusma (talk) 09:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

    Any reason? Zivko85 08:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

100. Support. I've recently interacted with Elonka in a FAC, where I found her good-natured contributions to be exemplary, and she was going an excellent job in helping less experienced editors through the process. Her article and FA work is also impressive to me. J.Winklethorpe 11:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
101. Support good candidate --rogerd 15:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
102. Support, no problems. The oppose reasons thus far are either unconvincing to me or happened too long ago. - Zeibura 16:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
103. Support. I share the views expressed below that she has a past history of clear self-promotion, but it is a past history. We reject people for adminship for a lot of foolish reasons... Even if Elonka were the worse self-promoter on the face of the earth that alone wouldn't be a reason to deny her the admin tools. I would have remained neutral and not participated in this RFA were it not for the fact there is clear evidence of canvassing against her. --Gmaxwell 16:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
104. Support I'm coming momentarily out of a long Wikibreak to support this hardworking, able contributor once again. It's also again distressing to see the character assassination, long-held grudges, and clear canvassing, perpetrated by people (can you say cabal?) like Danny, Rebecca, Ned Scott, Wknight94, who haven't liked Elonka's outspokenness and fairmindedness. See my user page for a lengthier discussion of why I no longer contribute here--this RFA, a never-ending diatribe against a solid contributor, is yet another example of how politics and pettiness have taken over Misplaced Pages. -- PKtm 16:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

     Note to closing bureaucrat: user inactive since 11 April when s/he announced his/her resignation on the talk page of Danny's RfA. . User made no other edits today and has not edited outside Danny and Elonka's RfAs since 31 March. Sarah 03:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     I was going to bite my tongue per WP:DNFT but this user has been threatening to leave since late last year. He reappears just long enough to slam someone (often me) and remind everyone how Misplaced Pages has wronged him. If anyone cares to consider a permablock for this blatant trolling behavior, it wouldn't break my heart... Nothing constructive has come from this account in a long time. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     As much as I disagree with PKtm on certain things, and even though he just slammed me too, there's nothing that says he's not allowed to just show up to make an RFA comment and leave again. -- Ned Scott 04:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     My most sincere respect and admiration at Ned's thoughtfulness and level-headiness, materialized here in not equating the opinion of a disgruntled, but legitimate former editor with the disruptive comment at Oppose #36. Phaedriel - 07:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     I don't know PKtm or anything about them. But I think the likelihood of canvassing and possibly lobbying, from both sides of this debate needs to be equally recognised, not simply in response to comments made in opposition to this candidate. As far as I know, the "This is not a vote" template at the top of this page applies to both sides, not just the people who oppose the candidate. This is a person who has retired from Misplaced Pages, who has not edited a page outside Danny and Elonka's RfAs since March 31 and who has incidentally previously supported Elonka. (eg: ) When someone suddenly comes back after not editing since their retirement apparently to specifically support an RfA candidate, we should treat it the same as, when all these things being equal, the person has opposed. I don't know this person or their history with any of the above users. I was simply noting their very recent history for the closing 'crats information, in the spirit of "This is not a vote" template at the top of the page. That is all. I was not trying to cast aspersions on anyone, deny anyone a 'right' to comment as they so desire, wind anyone up or equate this person with anyone else. Sarah 13:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     I know absolutely no evidence of canvassing on Elonka's side. And for what it's worth, I've spoken up for Ned at his WP:RFC because his actions at this RFA were criticized there. Durova 14:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     For the record, no, I did not contact PKtm to tell him about this RfA. He knew about it without my even mentioning it. My understanding is that though he doesn't edit Misplaced Pages, he still continues to read it on a daily basis, and checks his watchlist to keep up with changes. His support does mean a lot to me, because he and I were originally in opposition at last year's mediation on the Lost pages, and so I was very pleased when he and I were able to learn better means of communication, and work together on other projects. However, the acrimony that resulted from the Naming Conventions dispute, I'm afraid permanently soured PKtm on further actual participation on Misplaced Pages. It's my hope that someday he will return to editing, as I think he's a good editor and did a heck of a job keeping the Lost articles free of cruft. But that's entirely his call. --Elonka 17:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     Dear Sarah, first, let me say I hold you in the highest regard; and everytime I see your name, I think fondly of you, for reasons we both know. That won't change in the least because we happen to think differently at this particular process (and in fact, this is an example of collegial behavior compared to other recent discussions!). The formatting of the note to the closing bureaucrat, identical to the one left at Oppose #36, seemed as equating PKtm's opinion (of whom I had never heard prior to this; and, as criticizable as his past behavior may be, still has a long history of positive contributions) with that of a disruptive and very likely SPA. My deepest apologies if you felt that as criticism; I simply took it as a point over which two friends reasonably disagree.

     I will point out, tho, that I sincerely do disagree with the appreciation that the possibility of canvassing has only been commented on those who have chosen to oppose. Far from it, I see below several statements that take it for granted for the Support part of this RfA, when the only episode that could look remotely similar to it is a notification that was requested by its recipient. Yet, when a very similar situation presented itself at the Oppose section, it was immediately swarmed with "this is not canvassing" comments.

     For this reason, I urge everyone involved, that we all assume a little good faith; and instead of happily starting a mud-slinging war, and of delving into what Ned superbly called below as merely "speculating", that we concentrate on discussing the actual and relevant facts. Best regards, Phaedriel - 19:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

105. Support Elonka is an extremely active and talented contributor of the highest caliber. She is helpful and reasonable, and displays a high level of calmness and rationality. I think she will make an excellent admin! – Dreadstar † 17:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
106. Support - I see nothing overly negative that overshadows the good she has done for this project. I think she would make a great adminsitrator. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
107. Support. I agree with Pascal, Tim!, and Chris Kreider, among others: Elonka will be a benefit to the project with the extra buttons. Nothing raised in opposition worries me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
108. Support if open to recall. I could not add anything to this, but I will: I had edited alongside Elonka; we have both agreed on certain issues and disagreed on others, which led us to mediation. We have settled our issues, and in the aftermath I can see nothing that would make me believe she would abuse the mop or, powers forbid, the bucket. But if she will, this is where the recall comes in. PS. Elonka, if this nom fail, feel free to canva... inform me about the next one when you take a go at it. Good luck, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
109. Support. I am not convinced by the opposing arguments. Elonka has established herself as a worthwhile and trusted member of the community, and the ability to delete and protect pages is entirely transparent to the numerous other sysops on the project. I am certain that allowing her access to the sysop tools will only further improve her value to the Misplaced Pages project. Cary Bass 00:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     (just a bit of food for thought, not trying to influence your vote) That argument worked better when single reverts of admin actions weren't considered wheel warring. Zocky | picture popups 07:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

110. Support -- there's barely a single reason in the oppose section that isn't based off ancient history. While her behavior long ago (in wikitime, of course) is troubling, it appears that she's done all she can to remedy it. If Elonka had disappeared nine months ago and come back as a new user she'd be flying through this RfA -- because for the last nine months she's been an exemplary user. But instead she took the honest way out and is being pilloried for it. Is that we want? Do we want editors who have made mistakes to hide, to never be able to salvage their reputations, to be forced into a situation where a conflict of interest is hidden by the new identity they've been forced to assume? I don't want that. --JayHenry 01:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     Note that my oppose would never have been placed were it not for events in the last four weeks, although with the background that watching the ArbCom as it unfolded gave me. That I consider to be relatively recent. Orderinchaos 06:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     Though we disagree, I sincerely appreciate your response as it shows you've considered both past and present, and come to a reasoned conlusion. But it appears to me that you're in the minority of the oppose section. Many of the opposes refer only to behavior that's more than 9 months old. Some of the opinions expressed in the opposes are based off careful consideration such as yours, but my impression is that others are based on a visceral dislike of Elonka's past deeds, that has little to do with the Wikipedian she is today. --JayHenry 20:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

111. Support good editor, nuff said.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 01:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
112. Character assassination and ancient history aside, I am thoroughly convinced that Elonka being given the sysop tools will be a net gain for the project, especially with her being open to recall if she conducts herself poorly above and beyond the normal learning curve of those who have newly gained the tools. I am unconvinced by the opposition, especially since RFA has shown itself to be vulnerable to gaming in the not-so-distant past. At least with Elonka, she will tell you when she disagrees. Support. -- nae'blis 03:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
113. Support. per Cary Bass, and more unusually, Alkivar. RyanGerbil10(C-Town) 03:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
114. Support, Elonka is a good editor. Does she have a spotless record? Nope. Do any of us? I challenge you to find anyone with any nontrivial number of edits who does. I think she will on balance use the tools responsibly and for the good of the project, so I've got to say to hand them over. Seraphimblade 05:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
115. Support. Elonka has shown to be a kind and helpful member of the community with a respectable contribution history. I trust she will make an excellent admin as well. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
116. Support. a good editor not withstanding, I do not fear that she will at all abuse her administrator privileges, she shows wisdom and intelligent. for those who may fear abuse there are remedies if this should occur, the important thing about all editors and potential administrators is that they grow and learn from their mistakes which I'm convince that she has ▪◦▪ЅiREX 07:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
117. Support. There's no doubt she has the necessary experience, and very likely, the temperament, especially since she seems to learn well from her mistakes. The opposes seem to be, for the most part, wholly unreasonable. Opposing because she has an article here and declaring "I'm more notable"? C'moooooooon. An arbitration case with no sanctions against her? Sorry. "Too polite and soft?" No freaking way, not based on what I've read from her. I'm afraid the opposition seems to be grasping at straws or transgressions in the relatively distant past, and the project deserves better than that. Grandmasterka 08:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     The issue in Oppose vote #3 seems to be trying to assume AGF rather than "oppose (on being) too soft" - The substance of the vote was actually a criticism of Elonka's call for censorship of the encyclopaedia. Zivko85 09:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     I'm still waiting for a link to any consensus discussion that established the show/hide template as an inherent violation of WP:CENSOR. I doubt there has been such a consensus or the template would have disappeared on WP:MFD. Durova 14:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

118. Support. Appears to be a very respected editor and I do not believe she will misuse the tools. → AA — 08:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
119. Strong Support. While I may not be familiar to many here, I have been a registered member for 2 years, and a contributor for longer (previous ISP/IP). For nearly two years, my contributions were few, and far between, simply for the reason that I was busy in RL, but rest assured, I was reading, and learning. I have read many, many RfAs, and yes, I'm still learning; it has taken me several days to go through the viewpoints offered here. My apologies in advance for my verbosity. I met Elonka recently, simply because she'd found some of the messages I post to user's pages, and she dropped by to say they were cute, and appreciated. I responded, and we struck up a dialog, about our shared interests. She went on to assist me in an issue I had been drawn into while on Vandal patrol, with a very satisfactory outcome, showing both a willingness to see both sides of an issue, and the ability to remain neutral and offer a compromising alternative. I've read the concerns the opposition has voiced, and here is what my opinion is. First: She has freely offered to be open to recall. She is further supported by not one, but two nominating, established and respected administrators. That tells me she knows fully what the outcome of any questionable actions on her part would be. Second: At the heart of Misplaced Pages, I believe, is one of the values of Jimbo Wales: Quality not Quantity. There can be absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind, that Elonka's quality of contributions is in line with that value. It is one thing to make 30,000 minor edits. It is fully another thing to have the ability to take multiple articles (some in their infancy) and bring them to Featured Status. Third: We all are encouraged to assume good faith, to give second chances, and to forgive others of past mistakes. It seems to me, that many on the "oppose" side, are still holding grudges, some for actions that are many months, if not years old. I would encourage everyone to consider the great depth of knowledge that Elonka could bring to this wonderful community, and be encouraged knowing there are more than enough people here to "watch over" her (so to speak,), to be sure none of the past issues arise in the future. To err is human, and obviously, with 30,000+ edits, Elonka's passion is undeniable, of course some issues will become important to her. Mistakes are made by everyone at some point. Let us forget the issues of long ago, and welcome Elonka's vast knowledge with open arms, knowing that if any future issues come up, they will be dealt with appropriately. (And, to answer any doubts, nobody asked me to vote.) 14:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     I find that to be a very nice and kind support Ariel, and I don’t want to offend you (or Elonka), but I would like to put the 3 points you mention in some perspective.

     • Your first: I got the impression that the "freely offered to be open to recall" was actually a request by Durova which Elonka was prepared to fulfil. And being nominated by two respected administrators gives of course a boost to an RFA, but in Elonka’s case that is unfortunately a sensible required strategy because of anticipated "concerns" about the past.
     • Your second: "The Quality not Quantity value" – If you look at the 3 most prolific months of Elonka (Sep. Oct. Nov, 2006 see this talkpage) you will see that she made 12,150 edits to main space. 9,800 (>80%) of those consisted of adding an {{uncat|}} tag to an article. Regardless of the merit of doing that, I think that’s contributing in "Quantity", not "Quality". I would rather see somebody adding an article in an appropriate cat than duplicate Special:Uncategorizedpages. So yes, I have some doubts about Elonka's quality of contributions in line with that value. Concerning Elonka’s FA writing skill, I’m hold back a bit by former remarks of an experienced user like Bunchofgrapes on Elonka’s first RFA and talk page. Though I do congratulate Elonka on Knights Templar, and I do not believe that past behaviour are a guarantee for similar behaviour in the future.
     • Your third: "Assume good faith" – yes, this is actually the only point where I fully concur with you. However, assuming good faith with people doesn’t automatically lead to a support vote in their RFA, it needs a bit more. --Van helsing 23:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     Hi, just to be clear, I have been a fan of the recall category since I first learned about it over a year ago. And at my last RfA, I indicated my support of it there as well (question #6). In terms of my current RfA, there was absolutely no arm-twisting from Durova.  :) As for my contribs, yes I've tagged thousands of articles as uncategorized, but I've also added and expanded plenty of articles. Feel free to review a list at my userpage. --Elonka 23:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

     • I understand your points, and I'm not offended at all. I stand by my statements, For what little it is worth, I still believe Elonka has contributed greatly, and I believe she would do well as an Admin. 23:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

120. Support. Elonka is a perfect fit for Misplaced Pages and will integrate very well with the culture and environment. --Jscott 16:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
121. Support - I was neutral, but have decided to support. Elonka has shown a willingness to bend and does do ALOT for this project. Not afraid to change my mind. Good luck! --Tom 16:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
122. Strong Support - Having read through many of the diffs--pro and con, I have come the conclusion that Elonka is a very strong contributor who does understand the rules. I believe that difficulties which took place in her early WikiCareer have been learning points for her. I see a strong desire in her to be a fair and effective Administrator and I believe that she will use the admin buttons to our greater good. After seeing that she is willing, like Durova, to be subject to recall, I feel that Elonka is doing everything that she can to show that she will be a worthwhile administrator. I look forward to congratulating her on her success! Lmcelhiney 18:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
123. Weak Support I am loath to support an editor that has so many respected editors opposing with good reasons, but I think that there is still cause to support. Captain panda 19:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
124. The Strongest Support - Having previously nominated Elonka last year, there is still no doubt in my mind that Elonka would make the most fantastic and fair administrator. She is utterly kind and professional in her Misplaced Pages activities as, I am certain, she is in other areas of her life. Without a doubt, make this lady an administrator! SergeantBolt 21:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
125. Support. I am unswayed by the opposers, and her contributions and expertise are impressive. ➪HiDrNick! 21:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
126. Support I think the opposers have some valid points and some that have been quite overblown. I expect the net effect of Elonka becoming a sysop will be positive.--Chaser - T 04:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
127. Support Et in Arcadia ego. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
128. Support Not really following this too deeply I admit, but looking over all of the Opposes, frankly, all I see is "her past" this and "her past" that. How about you leave her past out of it, and you vote on who you think she is now? And looking at the support arguments compared to the oppose arguments? I'd say who she is now is perfect for a wikipedia admin. That's my 2 cents. Oggleboppiter 08:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

     RFA is about trust how can assertain whether any editor is worthy of that trust without looking at their past actions, its normal at rfa for editors to be oppose because they lack past actions. As far as I know there isnt yet anyway we can assess a person on their future actions. Gnangarra 09:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

     The past actions in question were never vandalism, always intended to improve the encyclopedia, at worst disputable ... but most of all eight or more months ago, since which time she has improved markedly in response to criticism and demonstrated an excellent record (see her contributions or Phaedriel's research). That's a long time. --AnonEMouse 13:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

     The issue where she was trying to remove the Kaaba images just happened about a month ago. Removal of relevant historic images is not an improvement. --Matt57 13:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

129. Support per Phaedriel. Epbr123 15:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
130. Support. per all above. --AndyFinkenstadt 18:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

     User has made only a handful of edits, the majority of which are related to Elonka or her family's pages (,,,), including his support for Elonka's last RfA, support for keeping the Bruce Woodcock article (also ) and also edited the page about her company (,). --Matt57 18:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

     I disagree. User has edited various random articles in good faith by clicking "Random Article" and looking for appropriate improvements. Not all edits have been while logged in. Not withstanding uncredited edits, it appears that some people have more hands than I do, since I have only 5 fingers on each hand and more edits than fingers and toes. --AndyFinkenstadt 18:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

     Andy Finkenstadt, how did you learn about this RfA?Proabivouac 20:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

131. I wasn't going to leave a comment on this RfA, so I could close it, but it looks like it's going to be contentious enough that I don't really want to close it. Therefore, I'm going to support, as I think this user probably can do more good than bad. Andre (talk) 20:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
132. Support personally, but I also support the overall decision of the community, if this fails or passes. I think in this user's case an unsuccessful RFA will only spur improvement, and she will become more prepared for another RFA. Elonka will make a good administrator when ready. -- Renesis (talk) 21:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
133. Per Phaedriel and Ned and Danny's oppose votes. Generally, these high profile RfAs have so many opposes because these users have been around a lot, not because they are bad users. — Deckiller 22:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
134. Support. Opposes seem to be based on personal grudges and/or things that happened in ancient wiki history. Whatever trouble was in the past appears to be firmly in the past. Elonka is obviously quite dedicated to the encyclopedia. No problem with answers to questions. (And Danny's grudge vote really put a bad taste in my mouth. I would like to say that that didn't affect my opinion, but it probably did.) --Fang Aili 23:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
135. Support. This one is a little more difficult for me than some. I do believe that it is likely that Elonka will use the buttons to delete articles that I personally don't believe meet CSD criteria, not because she will misapply or misunderstand policies and guidelines but because in those gray areas where administrators must exercise discretion, her personal leaning will be to delete. However, I also feel that she will not buck consensus or intentionally disregard guidelines to impose her own views. She is obviously dedicated and talented, so looking at the big picture, I think Misplaced Pages will be better off if Elonka has the tools. -- DS1953 23:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
136. Support. I don't see any reason to think she'd abuse the tools. And her response to the incredibly loaded question, 12, was impressive and restrained. Bladestorm 00:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
137. Support. I don't think she'll abuse the tools. Durova's co-nom (and admin coaching?) is impressive, and she's open to recall in any case. Give her a chance. <<-armon->> 01:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
138. Support - looks like a capable candidate, per Phaedriel, Durova and Andre Modernist 02:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
139. Support - I trust Elonka. My first Misplaced Pages experience with her was when she noticed that I had made some minor edits to my own wikipedia article, nothing major, at the time I just didn't know any better, she noticed it, explained to me that that was not something that was done here, explained the rules, it made sense, and I followed the rules from then on, but she didn't just stop there, she took the extra time to teach me how to do things in Misplaced Pages and how the culture works here. She helped me (and continues to help me) work on some original content which (real life issues permitting) I should be finished with this week. I know I trust her with admin powers and I'm glad she was nominated --Michael Lynn 02:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

     Michael Lynn, it appears that, like AndyFinkenstadt above, you have a professional relationship with Elonka. How did you find out about this RfA? The only other RfA vote I see from you is against Danny, of all people.

     Elonka, I'm not convinced that you shouldn't have the tools, but, for the sake of full disclosure, would you be willing to mark those supports (and opposes if you like) with whom you are personally or professionally acquainted?Proabivouac 03:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

     Erm, for clarity, no, I do not have a professional relationship of any kind with Abaddon. I see him once or twice a year at conferences, but that's about it. And I definitely heard his name a lot in 2005, as he was the center of world-wide attention during one conference, when he quit his job to "do the right thing." (see Michael Lynn) I have a lot of respect for him because of that incident. Support #5, SwatJester, has evidently played my games, but I have thousands of customers, and I'm sorry, but I don't remember exactly which one that SwatJester is (no offense! LOL). I definitely didn't tell him about this RfA, he found it on his own. As for AndyFinkenstadt, I see him on a daily basis (he works down the hall). I think I told him that I was going to be going up for RfA soon, when we went out for sushi last week. Not to "canvass", but just because we talk about all kinds of things: Games, Misplaced Pages, politics, TV shows, etc. A couple other people in my office also have Misplaced Pages accounts, but no, I have not gone to them and asked them to participate. --Elonka 03:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)