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Ships Project‑class

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Continuing issues with Balao class submarine propulsion

I had previously posted about Balao class submarines and all the difficulties involved in determining the details of their propulsion. Since then, I've found numerous reliable sources giving the surface power of the Gato, Balao, and Tench class subs as 5,400 hp and the submerged power as 2,740 hp. I'm reasonably inclined to rely on those figures. shafts. The diesels did not drive the boats directly. That means that whether surfaced or submerged, the boats are being driven by the same motors, and so I don't know why surfaced power differs from submerged. Theories:

1. The batteries don't generate as much voltage as the generators can.

I have an issue with them, though. The U.S. fleet boats were true diesel-electrics: their diesel engines drove generators only. The generators provided power to the electric motors, which drove the

1. The 2,740 hp figure is the amount of power that can be maintained for a certain period of time, like perhaps half an hour.

Another problem I have is with figures on GUPPYs provided by Norman Friedman's U.S. Submarines Since 1945. According to the book, four-engine GUPPY conversions are rated at 5,400 hp surfaced and 4,610 hp submerged. GUPPYs with one engine removed are rated at 3,430 hp surfaced and 4,610 hp submerged. Those numbers don't seem to work for me, though, for several reasons:

1. 5,400 hp divided by four engines is 1,350 hp, while 3,430 hp divided by three engines is 1,140 hp.
2. Just for the heck of it, 4,610 hp divided by four is 1,150 hp. What a coincidence!
3. Mild GUPPY conversions which were only streamlined, whose batteries are just mildly updated Sargo II's, are listed with 4,610 hp submerged.
4. From pg. 35 of the same book, which discussed early results with GUPPY-type batteries, it was thought that 496 GUPPY cells would be capable of producing 6,800 hp for a half hour. As converted, GUPPYs actually had 504 cells.

I've also seen a few scattered sources saying that GUPPYs were downrated to 4,610 hp on diesels. Here's one source and here's another. That first source quotes a forum post that says they were derated because the snorkel systems were much more restrictive than the old intakes and exhausts and because lower-compression pistons were fitted. That's sufficiently detailed for me to believe it, but neither source is what I'd consider reliable enough to cite.

The above point #4 is interesting. If 496 GUPPY cells can produce 6,800 hp for half an hour, that's 14 hp per cell. Multiply by 126, the number of cells in fleet boats, and you get 126 cells producing 1,700 hp. So... compare that to the 2,740 hp "submerged power" figure for fleet boats. This is a little bit of original research, but I think you could deduce that the 2,740 hp figure is the absolute maximum the batteries can provide to the motors, and the "half hour rate" must be much lower.

Anyway, here's what I think based on the available information:

1. GUPPYs were downrated to 4,610 hp surfaced, and Friedman mixed up and/or misinterpreted some figures.
2. From the information I have available, it isn't possible to determine the submerged horsepower of GUPPYs and it should not be listed.

Does anyone know any really detailed, in-depth sources on GUPPYs or perhaps have any reliable sources related to this possible downrating of their surface power? TomTheHand 17:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I still don't have any reliable sources that really explain the 4,610 hp thing. However, I was reading Norman Friedman's sub books this weekend and I came across a passage that explains the relationship between submerged and surfaced power and the reason why they're different even if the motors are the same. On the surface, four-motor subs run on all four motors, and two-motor subs run on both armatures of both of their motors. Underwater, four-motor subs only run on two motors, and two-motor subs only run on a single armature of each of their motors. This is because pre-GUPPY boats did not have the battery capacity to run on all of their motors for any length of time. When battery capacity was greatly increased with the GUPPYs, it became possible to run on all motors while underwater. TomTheHand 14:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, but on the subject of the exhaust backpressure thing, I'm looking right now at a diagram of the snorkel system used on GUPPYs and Fleet Snorkels. When the sub's not snorkeling, the exhaust does not exit through the snorkel. It has a direct path out to the deck and through mufflers. A page I linked to above does say that the compression ratio of the diesels was reduced, but I can't see that costing so much power. TomTheHand 14:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Importance rating

Could someone from this project assign an importance rating to the battleship USS New Jersey (BB-62)? I would rather not have that box left with a question mark. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we have established importance criteria for this project. The class and importance flags were imported to the project banner by another editor. I copied the class assessment guidelines from WPMILHIST to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ships/Assessment, but we have no importance guidelines (which are supposed to be relative to each project) yet. Personally I think the NJ rates a Top or High, but until we come up with some guidelines and consensus, it's probably best to leave them unrated for importance. I wouldn't worry about the ??? too much until then.

To kick off the discussion we need to have to create the project's Importance Critera, review Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria#Importance of topic. Given the Editorial Team's global criteria, I guess we have to ask which of our topics are essential to an encyclopedia. This would seem to correspond roughly to a notability scale. That suggests that RMS Titanic be of higher importance than the NJ. It puts me in two minds on ship indexes though. Including the index before the individual articles at least gets some mention of a given ship in the encyclopedia, but on the other hand the individual ship articles are meatier. --J Clear 23:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think NJ rates "top" importance. I think only the most notable ships ever should be given "top" importance, like RMS Titanic, as you said. Maybe RMS Lusitania. Bismarck. I think that most of our "top" importance articles should be ship types, like battleship and aircraft carrier, with a few of the most important individual ships mixed in. The most important ship classes might rate "top" as well, like the Essex class.

I think that "high" importance should be important ship class articles, like Fletcher class destroyer, and fairly important ships, like USS New Jersey (BB-62).

I think "mid" importance should be less important ship class articles, like perhaps Mackerel class submarine, and the majority of individual ship articles.

"Low" importance should be ships that were cancelled before completion and other ships that are not very notable. TomTheHand 02:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

About criteria: this will be tricky. Criteria such as design can be relatively objective - is there an technical advance, does it represent a new direction for a navy, perhaps - but importance also includes subjective elements that will be national and emotional. To me, eg, the NJ is just another WWII US battlewaggon (one of many), whereas the Hood was iconic and disastrous and demonstrated the weakness of a particular approach and a Viking ship was a real ground breaker. Criteria? Design innovation, international importance, national status (ie importance of the topic to a nation), public awareness (?). Any more? BTW, "importance" has been abandoned on the Mil Hist project. Folks at 137 07:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that HMS Hood (51) is probably "top" importance, as well as HMS Dreadnought (1906) and HMS Victory. As far as American ships go, I'd call USS Constitution, USS Monitor, and USS Arizona (BB-39) about as important as they come.

I could also see abandoning "importance." Seems like there's way too much room for fighting there, and I don't know how helpful it actually is. TomTheHand 12:33, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'd prefer if we didn't have the importance rating, as like you say there is just too much room for arguing over what constitutes an important ship. Martocticvs 14:06, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

If we have clear (no pun intended) criteria, that should keep the arguing to a minimum. Seems like Tom has at least a start for the criteria above. I'd think the criteria for Top and High should be the a bit more detailed just to cut down on the arguing. For intstance, for Top and High, I think it should be criteria plus peer vote/review. We should also make sure that Importance remains relatively orthogonal to Quality rating. One of the points of Importance is to help with "workflow". I.e. a "Top Stub" would be something we'd want to do something about, while a "Medium GA" could be ignored.--J Clear 16:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so how about this. General criteria will be essentially as above:

1. Top importance - ship types, like aircraft carrier and galleon
2. High importance - ship classes, like Fletcher class destroyer
3. Mid importance - ship themselves, like USS Fletcher (DD-445)
4. Low importance - relatively unimportant articles, like stubs for cancelled ships

Articles can be given an importance either higher or lower than the guideline as appropriate. A rating two or more levels different from the guideline should be the result of peer vote/review, while importance ratings within one level of the guideline can be initially assigned without discussion. That will cut down on bureaucracy. If there's a dispute about importance rating, a discussion will obviously be necessary. The discussion should be held on the talk page of the article, so that people can find it easily, but a note that a discussion is taking place should be put here, on WP:SHIPS talk, so that people can be made aware of it. TomTheHand 17:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Well that seems reasonable enough to me, my earlier reservations aside. If everything goes smoothly, then excellent! Martocticvs 18:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! When do we splice it into the project (maybe Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ships/Assessment#Importance_scale?) and update the banner? --Kralizec! (talk) 04:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

As a general rule it sounds good, but should there not be higher ratings for revolutionary ships (Warrior and Dreadnought come to mind), or those which by virtue of their service have achieved a higher degree of recognition (e.g. Enterprise and Warspite)?

"Articles can be given an importance either higher or lower than the guideline as appropriate." TomTheHand 13:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll copy it over in a bit. I'd like to clarify that it is one step higher or lower w/o a review. Also what is the default importance for {{shipindex}} type pages like USS Constellation? Does the WP editorial board have general importance guidelines for DAB pages? --J Clear 19:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I would personally call disambiguation pages "NA" importance but I don't have a strong opinion. TomTheHand 21:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

In a fit of boldness, I went ahead and added an Importance assessment section based on our above discussions. --Kralizec! (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I copied in the bit about assigning ratings higher or lower as appropriate, because I think it's important. I also changed your example of a low-importance article, because I would sort of say that Soviet aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk is an unusually important cancelled ship: first Soviet supercarrier and all. I used USS Turbot (SS-427) instead, because she was simply one of dozens of ships cancelled at the end of World War II. TomTheHand 23:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for including the higher/lower text. You also make a good point on the Ulyanovsk, however to avoid any perceived USN or RN preference, we should probably use a non-US or -UK ship. (My intention was to only use one each from the RN and USN in the examples.) Perhaps Soviet submarine TK-210, French aircraft carrier Verdun, or something else from Category:Proposed ships ... ? --Kralizec! (talk) 23:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No arguments here. The two ships you just named look like good examples, and a little bit better than the articles in Category:Proposed ships. I'll add the Soviet sub to the guideline. TomTheHand 17:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I added some notes about not copying importance from another project and doing due diligence in copying class, as we may have additional required elements.--J Clear 01:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Just one comment regarding the relative importance of a ship such as BB-62 New Jersey. The New Jersey does happen to be the only US battleship to have fought in each of the WWII, Korea and Vietnam campaigns. In that regard, she is not only unique, but of greater import. xl_five_lx 16:29 30 July 2007

List of ship launches - which flag is correct for civilian ships?

This has been puzzling me for a while so I thought I'd finally ask. In the Category:Lists of ship launches, which flag is correct to display in the "Country" box: the nationality of the shipyard or the nationality of the company it's being built for? For military craft this is always the same country, but for civilians it isn't and there doesn't seem to be an established guideline.

Currently the nationality of the shipping company is used (which, if incorrect, is mostly my fault as I've been practically the only one adding civvie ships to the lists). - Kjet 11:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't assume that it is always the same for Naval vessels. I believe I saw on one of the Amphibious ship articles that some other country is having some made by Spain, Juan Carlos class sticks in my head. --J Clear 15:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Here it is Amphibious assault ships#Australia, used to say Juan Carlos class there.

And of course several Japanese naval ships were built by Britain before the second world war... Martocticvs 16:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, admittedly not always, but nitpicking aside that still leaves the original question. - Kjet 20:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It occurs to me that List of ship launches in 1942 through 1945, are going to get pretty fat. See my recent remarks on this page about trying to write an article about every Liberty and Victory ship (over 5000).--J Clear 16:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Lists of Ship Launches- I love the idea and layout - looks great. I just modifed the List of Ship Launches 1943, but the changes necessary might save whomever is working on these files a lot of time when applied to articles for other years.

• Seattle-Tacoma built CVEs were listed as being built in Seattle, Washington. Sea-Tac had yards in both Seattle and Tacoma. The Tacoma yard built all of their CVEs, regardless of class, and Seattle built destroyers.
• Kaiser built CVEs were listed as being built in Richmond, California. Kaiser built CVEs were built at the Vancouver, Washington yard and only at the Vancouver, Washington yard. Kaiser's four Richmond, California yards built: Oceans, Libertys, Victorys, LSTs, Big C-4 Transports and tiny Frigates - but never any CVEs.
• Also just noticed that all Kaiser built CVEs in the 1943 article are listed as modified S4 hulls. There is no such thing as an S4 hull. They were built on heavily modified P1 hulls which was smallest of the four sizes of, what the US Maritime Commission classed as "standard" pre-war transport designs. The confusion comes from MarCom's designation of S4-S2-BB3 assigned to the Kaiser CVEs. Deciphering contemporary Maritime Commission parlance, all the S4 meant was it was the 4th time it was asked to build a "Special" military type for one of the services - S, in the S4 meant Special Military Type, the 4 meant 4th special ship type built by them. The center portion of the S4-S2-BB3 designation connotes length of final design. It asks two things: 1) Was the length modified, and if so 2) how long is it now? And since the length of the P1 hull was indeed lengthened to accommodate a minimum required length for a flight deck, the S in S2 answers "yes", it was modified, and 2 means it was lengthened to within the range of our standard types with a 2 suffix - ie C-2, P-2, etc. Lastly, the final subset in the S4-S2-BB3 connotes on whose request are we building these ships for, and which iteration of preliminary designs actually got built. The BB, in BB3, was "MarCom speak" for they received the task by direct order of the President on 08JUN42. FDR's files were arranged such that anything warship related had a BB prefix. The 3, in BB3, indicates that the Chief of Preliminary Design at MarCom, Ivan J. Wanless, had two prior versions of his design before getting approval to turn it over to a design agent who would then take his preliminary design and convert that into detailed working plans. Example: His first design was called BB1, second BB2, and so on. It's merely a tracking device used by Naval Architects in the course of preliminary design. In other words, all S4-S2-BB3 is/was/will ever be is a file name. Kaiser CVEs are built on P1 hulls - albeit heavily modified. Using the S4-S2-BB3 designation is tantamount to calling what is essentially a "design name" and elevating it to a "hull form", which it is not at all. Hope this helps save both time and effort.xl_five_lx 12:50 03AUG07

Coordinates in ship infoboxes

Could you guys weigh in on this? I'm of the opinion that since coordinates are easily put at the top right corner of the article, above all article content, like on USS Arizona (BB-39), it's redundant to place coordinates in the infobox. TomTheHand 13:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with that. How many ships are there for which this would be relevant anyway? Only a very small proportion of the total number of ship articles we have here, that's for certain, so I think it makes far more sense to use the existing abilities. Martocticvs 17:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think it's good to have coordinates for shipwrecks or museum ships, but there's no need to clutter up the infobox with it when the coordinate template already supports putting the coordinates in the page header. TomTheHand 17:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone's put the coordinates in the infobox on HMS Victory. I saw that before I saw this debate, and wasn't too happy with it. It's a snowball of information in those infoboxes anyway and adding the coordinates messes them up unnecessarily. Since the Misplaced Pages convention is that coordinates go in the header, I really can't see why on earth we'd want to start adding them to the ship infoboxes. Despite the fact he'd like to add them to the Empire State Building box, they simply aren't there. See Stonehenge, the Terracotta Army, the Eiffel Tower, the Statue of Liberty, etc, etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Why should ships be different? It's unnecessary, unappealing and against established Misplaced Pages practice. If no one objects, I'm going to remove it. Benea 20:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the guy who added them to the infobox put them on HMS Victory as an example. At least he didn't go adding them to dozens of ships; I can't blame him for doing one as a proof of concept. I want to remove it from both HMS Victory and the infobox, but I wanted to hear from a couple of other people about it first. I'll go ahead and remove them. TomTheHand 20:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Benea, could you please cite the assertion that "the Misplaced Pages convention is that coordinates go in the header"? Certainly I've seen them in the header (not to mention added a few), but I've also seen them in other infoboxes (e.g. {{Infobox bridge}}). ISTR there was a very contentious debate about putting anything up on the title bar when it first started. It seems to me that the coordinates go right along with the status/fate of the ship when it has ceased to move. We set the status to museum, sunk or wrecked, why not include the coords there? I hesitate to bring this up here, but it's probably a lot more useful than some of the things that are in our infobox to a casual reader. Obviously it would need to be hidden if not supplied. Either way we go, we should be using {{coord}} (note the d at the end), as that has the code that ties into Google maps and others.--J Clear 02:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that it works so well in the header that there's no reason to put it anywhere else. It's clean and presents information in a consistent way. I generally support infoboxes being as clean and simple as possible. If this were a discussion between putting coordinates in the infobox versus putting them in the main article text, I'd support the infobox solution, but given that {{coord}} already supports putting them in the article header, and that feature is already widely used around Misplaced Pages, I prefer sticking them there. TomTheHand 02:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Tom on this one. Perhaps I should have said 'conventional' rather than 'convention', as I'm not sure of any official ruling on the matter. You're right, bridge infoboxes sometimes do, as in Golden Gate Bridge and London Bridge, as well as a few others. But unless there are more I've missed, this seems more of an exception. For examples of other fixed locations, see the examples I've listed above, as well as Houses of Parliament, Moscow Kremlin, etc. Also, for articles without infoboxes, the co-ordinates are there in the header, as with White House, Panama Canal and Mount Snowdon, so this is where people would go for it. If there was no where else to put them, then fine, but I would agree they are fine in the header. The 'casual reader' can look there and see if there are any co-ordinates immediately on opening the page, without having to go through an infobox of varying length and detail, so see if they are there or not. Benea 18:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Mount Snowdon is an interesting example. That infobox has a coordinate parameter which was ignored. Yet the non-universal Ordnance Survey grid was supplied in the infobox and a {{coor title d}} added near the bottom of the article. Personally I think the whole question cries out for a consensus at a much higher level than WP:SHIPS. It may have already been discussed over on pages associated with {{Coord}}, but my mental DB is reindexing after a few IPAs. --J Clear 23:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) May I suggest we put the coord parameter back as an infobox input parameter, but use {{Coord}}'s "display=title" to display it at the top. Then if we ever change our mind or the community at large changes it for us, we just edit the template to display it in the info box. Much like we've done ensign vs. jack.--J Clear 13:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Riverboat

I just found this recently and while I'll help clean it up, I have no idea where to start, or if it should be merged to something else. The article's rather scrambled up, but contains some good information. The history section mentions only the Skeena River and Terrace, British Columbia, which I (as a British Columbian) find amusing. However, I think the Mississippi (among other rivers) might also have something to contribute to the history of riverboats :).CindyBo 01:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Check Navsource links

When spiffing up old articles, please check the www.navsource.org URL(s) that many have. Navsource was reorganized and all the old links end up, after a long delay, at the top page. Thanks. --J Clear 03:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the change. I have updated the article I look after (Landing Craft Support). --Lee Begg 04:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

"You can help!" page

Some time ago, I had mentioned that I'd like to create some sort of a page where we can advertise tasks and projects. I whipped something up here but I haven't linked it from the main page yet. Obviously it's pretty U.S.-centric because that's my area of interest, but we can add a variety of stuff. It's not pretty, and it's only got a handful of things on it, but I was thinking that it might be a helpful resource for new members and might also be a good way to get us all cooperating on tasks. What do you guys think? TomTheHand 18:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

TomStar81 nominated for Admin

A WP:SHIPS contributing editor, TomStar81(Talk, Contribs), has been nominated for adminship. If you wish to contribute to this process, there is a Guide.

I have attempted to remain withing the spirit of WP:CANVAS by keeping this to a single, non-disruptive, neutral announcement. I've also intentionally omitted a direct link to the nom, to encourage reading about the process. Please review WP:CANVAS before responding here or spreading the news further. --J Clear 13:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

• My rfa has been withdrawn. For the full details you can check out this link. I appreciate the trust this project and the WP community have in me; however, this time around things just didn't work out. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hullnumber.com

I just had a new user, User: Usnht, stumble over my watch list. They seem to be adding hullnumber.com links to DDG articles. I requested that the user not top list them, but I seem to find myself ambivalent about the worth of that www.hullnumber.com links to Misplaced Pages. I'm not quite against it, but neither do I feel like it's a big gain. Anybody else feel either way about it? --J Clear 17:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I was going to drop a note here and remove it as linkspam. WP:EL seems split. Though interesting, crew lists don't seem encyclopedic. Though there doesn't seem to be any advertising attached to it, seems like a conflict of interest since the user is likely associated with the site. Under "Links normally to be avoided" these seem to apply to support removal.

1}Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.

3)Links mainly intended to promote a website.

10) Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET.

My gut feeling is to remove them, unless someone can explain why they are needed / beneficial to this project / wikipedia. --Dual Freq 21:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily have a problem if the user is from that site since the site appears to be incredibly non-commercial. I didn't see an ad anywhere. If it where, then it would seem like a blatant attempt to draw traffic using wikipedia. Now I didn't delve too far into the site, perhaps it puts a hook in you later if you try contact anyone or put your info up, then I'd weigh in more on getting rid of the links for WP:LINKSPAM. I'm still trying hard to hold on to WP:FAITH here. ;-) Anybody played with that site in more depth? --J Clear 23:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd leave them in. Hullnumber isn't a social networking site in the same sense that the others are -- it specifically lists people who served aboard a specific ship. IMHO it wouldn't be good to say "there are some connections to people who served aboard this ship, but we aren't going to tell you about them because it's against our policy." Lou Sander 23:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd remove them for the reasons Dual Freq lists. It's no MySpace, but it's not far off from some other social networking sites. TomTheHand 15:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed a link to a similar site, navybuddies.com, on USS Bismarck Sea (CVE-95). Guess we should add them into the discussion. navybuddies does have ads, but also has some ship data and photos. I also see that at least hullnumber also has the registration part of

6) Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content.

weighing against it.

Given that people are coming by and adding these links, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to do what the WP:BOOKS folks did and create something like the Misplaced Pages:ISBN link. It is an accepted way of linking to sites that clearly violate the no commercial links and other parts of the WP:EL guidelines. Make it something like a crew resources page that has links to acceptable sites (e.g. how to get your service record) as well as those we are discussing, much like ISBN has libraries followed by commercial booksellers. Don't clobber me on the details yet, it's only a partially baked idea. ;-) --J Clear 02:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The people most interested in most of these ships are the people who served on them. They probably also represent the largest number of people who might actually read the article on any given ship. It just seems whacky not to steer these folks to other sites that might specifically relate to their ship. Maybe a way can be found to do that without offending the "no commercial interest" people, the "no social networking" people, etc. Many ship reunion groups have their own web sites, which IMHO should definitely be included in the ship article if they are known. For things like hullnumber.com, military.com, etc. maybe there could be an article telling people of their existence, and referring them to the site in general (rather than to the specific part that applies to their ship). Something like J Clear suggests would be good, too.

The point is that there ought to be a way to guide folks to further resources about their ship, which resources can be researched, added, changed, etc. by any Misplaced Pages editor; and there needn't be a separate guide for each ship -- one generic one would do it. Lou Sander 02:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

To all, if there are multiple sites that provide the same social networking service, linking former shipmates, how can wikipedia favor one over the other? I don't think I'd object to linking a specific ships association like http://www.ussiowa.org for example, but adding a generic site just seems to be traffic building. Additionally, what if that site changes its internal links? http://www.hullnumber.com/commands1.php?ct=DD&st=DDG&hn=60&n1=USS&n2=PAUL&n3=HAMILTON&n4=&n5= doesn't seem like a long term stable web address. These also seem to focus only on US ships ignoring the other navies of the world.--Dual Freq 02:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above: First, that web sites for specific ship organizations, like ussiowa.org, or for specific ship classes, like destroyerleaderassociation.org (which covers DL-1 through DL-5), are alright for inclusion, and second, that general-purpose ship networking sites should not be linked off of every ship article. It'd be like linking classmates.com from every high school article. I agree with Lou Sander, though, that if there were a shipmate reunion article, it wouldn't be a bad plan to link to some shipmate networking web sites. Class reunion lists a ton of classmate networking sites. TomTheHand 12:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not proposing to move single ship specific external links to reliable and specific sources, just the generic multi-ship ones. Especially ones that might be WP:EL marginal but important to certain users. As to my ISBN example, maybe I should give an example. Go to "Hunt for Red October", and click on the ISBN link in the infobox. I propose we could have a page like that, which could be linked from ship articles. You will note that it has a mix of "free" library resources and "paid" booksellers. It also tries hard to give a very broad coverage of both kinds of sites, i.e. not favoring one bookseller over another. Another good example of this type of wikipedia resource is the maps page that you get clicking on 42°22′20.88″N 71°03′23.68″W / 42.3724667°N 71.0565778°W / 42.3724667; -71.0565778. While we might not be able to be as slick (how do you map a hull number to DANFS directory structure?), at least not right away, we should be able to have a page that gives folks a solid set of pointers in the right direction. Another feature of consolidating all the shipmate finders on one page is that, as noted above, if they changed their URL format, or like navsource, their directory structure, then only one page on wikipedia needs updating. --J Clear 23:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

HullNumber.com was founded eight years ago of the death on my best Navy Buddy in 1999-> http://www.hullnumber.com/about.htm

HullNumber.com is a one man operation. I have a full time job and have to work another 15 years to retire. Currently I host 8,700+ Ship, Sub and Air Squadron Rosters. HullNumber is linked to approximately 500 USN Command websites that are owned, for the most part, by reunion goups. That leaves the sailors of 8,200 commands no where to go but the “Pay to Communicate” sites, ie Military.com, Classmates.com, or the lesser sites that unindate the Sailor with Jiggling Banners, Popups, Spam and offer T-Shirts, Coffee Cups and Ball Caps for sale.

Earlier in this thread an Editor stated HullNumber.com is “incredably non-commercial”. Registration and communicating with shipmates is FREE and will be so FOREVER. If an Old Salt, reaching the end of his days discovers an old pal on HullNumber.com, he will not have $20 extorted by me so he can send an email. There is nothing for sale on HullNumber.com. Further, there are no banner ads and no popups. They add no value to the service I perform for my fellow US Navy Veterans ….

A Guided Missle Destroyer (DDG) Sailor goes to HullNumber.com and in two clicks is viewing a Roster of Shipmates. If posted, the Sailor can view reunion information, see his Reunion Group / Ship Assoc. website and email a shipmate securely. If there is a Shipmate they would like to hear from, a Sailor can "Remember A Shipmate". The Sailor enters what information he can recall of his Navy Buddy and that info is posted on the Roster with a tag of Remembered By .. the Sailor’s Last Name. This serves as a bulletin board to let a Shipmate know an old friend would like to hear from them. I don’t see my service as Social Networking. I see it as "Making Contact With An Old Friend" in the most direct and uncluttered manner possible.

The idea of establishing reciprocating links between Specific USN Ship/Sub pages on Misplaced Pages and HullNumber.com was to allow the HullNumber folks to help write the history of their ships and to allow the Wiki folks to see if their old friends were on HullNumber and to get in touch with them for free. The DDGs were to be used as a trial of about 6 months. The number of DDGs (100) and the age of their crews (average about 50), would provide a good trial of the idea without the investment of too much time, the lone webmaster’s most precious resource.

An example of my idea uses the Misplaced Pages and HullNumber.com pages of the USS Henry B. Wilson at: http://en.wikipedia.org/USS_Henry_B._Wilson_(DDG-7) http://www.hullnumber.com/commands1.php?ct=DD&st=DDG&hn=7&n1=USS&n2=HENRY&n3=B.&n4=WILSON&n5=

I ask to continue this trial, using the 100 or so DDGs, for the following reasons: 1) The HullNumber.com folks directed to Misplaced Pages can read and potentially add to the history that they helped create. 2) The Misplaced Pages Folks can potentially find and make contact with a Shipmate for free. 3) HullNumber.com does not “require payment or registration to view the relavant content.” There is no commercial aspect such as banner ads, popups, spam or anything for sale.

HullNumber.com, like Misplaced Pages, is a non-commercial SERVICE to others.

I commend you all for your contribution to the Navy and Maritime communities. Usnht 02:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)USNHT

Abbreviation for nautical miles

I usually abbreviate nautical miles as nm, because I feel that it most accurately reflects real usage. For example, navy.mil has 10,700 hits for nm and 1030 for nmi. I acknowledge that nm is the SI symbol for nanometre, but I consider it essentially impossible for someone to be confused because of the massive difference in scale. Thunderbird2 is currently working through articles fixing up units, and one of this fixes is replacing nm with nmi. I was wondering what you guys thought about this, and also wondering if our project should have an official abbreviation for nautical mile that we should strive to use in all articles. TomTheHand 19:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well there seems not to be an internationally agreed standard for it, though whilst nmi is used, I would say that nm is far more common. To avoid any possibility of confusion, we could make sure all instances are correctly linked, ie nm. Martocticvs 20:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I usually strive to link the first usage of nm in an article. I think that's a really good idea. TomTheHand 21:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Class naming conventions

I've been applying the ship class naming conventions to US Navy blimps (eg: B class blimp), but another user insists that these should be hyphenated as, for example B-class blimp. The example here about nominative and adjectival usage doesn't seem to be very helpful - the two examples look identical to me! Any guidance would be appreciated. --Rlandmann 08:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Article names don't have the hyphen, so B class blimp.
• Within an article,
  • the class name used as a noun phrase isn't hyphenated:
    "The blimps of the ] were the most humongous airships ever produced by the Navy."
  • But the class name used as adjectival phrase is hyphenated:
    "The ] ]s were the workhorses of WW2 ASW."

Does that help? —wwoods 19:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah! Exactly what I was looking for - many thanks. Perhaps the example on the naming convention page could be expanded along similar lines? --Rlandmann 23:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Something I notice all too frequently is the misuse of italics in ship class names. The "Author's Guide" printed by the United States Naval Institute Press states that while individual ship names should ALWAYS be italicized, that same ship name when used to speak of class should NEVER be italicized. Example: The Casablanca is the lead ship in the Casablanca class escort carriers. xl_five_lx 16:38 30 July 2007

Please see the last topic on this page, New Addition - 'Class style', where we're discussing your change. The U.S. Navy italicizes class names, and so I believe we should continue to do so. TomTheHand 20:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Correct ensign for a replica ship

Which ensign would be best to place in an infobox of a replica ship? The ensign from the period the replica is active or the period when the ship the replica was based on was active? This question pertains to US Brig Niagara (replica). --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​ 18:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of changing it to the 1812 flag she flies. I cite USS Constitution as precedent, also recall something about using "most famous period". --J Clear 14:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Naval ensign of Azerbaijan

I'm wondering about this flag: -- it is labeled as the Naval Ensign of Azerbaijan here on the 'pedia; however, according to Flags of the World it is nether an ensign, nor a jack, but a "ceremonial flag". Do you have more information or another source? Thanks, --Himasaram 12:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

New Addition - 'Class style'

A new user (User:Xl five lx) has added this to the project page:

"One of the most common flaws in articles regards the proper presentation of class and individual ship names. "Author's Guide", United States Naval Institute Press, states USS ship names are to be italicized when referencing the individual vessel, but never italicized when referring to class. Example: The Corregidor was the fourth ship of the Casablanca class."

This seems to contradict what our manual of style indicates, that where a class is named after the lead ship it should be italicised (e.g. Duke of Edinburgh class cruiser, and where it is not, it should not be italicised (e.g. Battle class destroyer or R class destroyer. For his example, the Casablanca class escort carrier, this would mean it would be rendered as the Casablanca class. I prefer the way we do it IMHO, it can lift it out of the page and fits with ship name style conventions. Also, his source refers to US ships. What about other nationalities? Can we come up with a standard? Benea 19:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Some Googling around navy.mil seems to support italicizing class names, too. TomTheHand 19:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Nathan Miller's The US Navy: An Illustrated History italicizes class names as well. Auror 20:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact remains were any of us to submit a manuscript to the US Naval Institute Press later today, all italicized class names would be edited to normal text. If a rational argument can be made that we, or any of us, know better than the organization created for, and dedicated to the advancement and preservation of all things U.S. Navy, then we have a more global problem to which this issue merely served to bring to light.

It is about professionalism and doing things properly. Misplaced Pages can be great, but only if those helping build it make paramount their task to dig deeper and beneath the mass of apocryphal that inundates the world wide web. If you consider 08:08, 18 May 2007 new, then yes, I am brand new here. But that hardly changes the fact the most prestigious organization to carry the naval torch claims - in writing - that the proper way is to never italicize a ship name when used to indicate class, while always italicizing ship name when used to refer to an individual ship.

As for book references that employ, or ignore, this practice: repeating another's mistakes and citing them as precedent for your act will never get you out of trouble. Just ask any 4 year old caught stealing candy after seeing his friend do it. It's about credibility. It's about getting the facts straight and removing the erroneous apocryphal that appear on so many websites. This is an encyclopedia, not anyone's soap box, nor outlet for how I, nor anyone, feels things should be - or could be better done. In our particular genre, the history of ships and naval history, it is of extreme import to make absolutely certain that the rehashed misinformation not be allowed to creep into nor corrupt an encyclopedia. You hear the word "encyclopedia" and you think truth. You think fact. But frankly, there is far too much misinformation being carried over from this or that website into these relatively new entries.

In summation, why not do things correctly? To the letter? Indeed that is the letter of that law. Casablanca class carriers, of which the Casablanca was the lead ship. Et Cetera. Et Cetera. Et Cetera. xl_five_lx 17:52 30 July 2007

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I take issue with your rather POV claims, there are other navies in the world other than the US one. If one source does things one way and others do them another, then it is perhaps an oversimplification to claim one is full of mistakes and the other is gospel truth. And labelling other people's contributions as 'misinformation', and themselves as children ('Just ask any 4 year old') is rather uncivil. I'm sure other users could point you to appropriate policies if you asked. I'm going to leave it at that and see what other people think. I don't think I've climbed on my soapbox at any point. You may of course correct me if you feel otherwise. Et Cetera. Et Cetera. Et Cetera. I'll pop back at somepoint though. I have a manuscript to submit. Benea 22:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This a tad absurd. The single source you deeply discount here is the United States Naval Institute Press who state the proper way to present ship class names in their published "Author's Guide". You talk as if I cited a passage from JohnnyV, the kid from down the block who aspires to become a rapper. By the way, USNIP also claims, in this very same publication, to adhere strictly to the Chicago Manual of Style - a staple reference for writers everywhere. xl_five_lx 18:12 (not the war of, the time) 30 July 2007

I'm terribly sorry to disparage your source which I'm sure is all good and proper, but again I reiterate that it is ONE source. A couple of other contributors have listed others. Interestingly the US Navy website appears to italicise class names. Perhaps by some terrible oversight they have not been informed of the United States Naval Institute Press' ground breaking decision? A regretable oversight to be sure. Incidentally, there are other navies around the world too, not covered by your source. What shall we do about them? Also kindly don't attempt to claim that the Chicago Manual of Style is the staple of everyone "everywhere". I'm sure the old boys at Oxford (England donchaknow?) would be heartbroken. Benea 22:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Not unlike Admiral Lutjens allowing the Prince of Wales to live to fight another day, I opt to no longer engage. It is pointless and not my primary objective - not to mention against standing orders (the wife).

Interestingly, I went to Navy.mil and indeed saw where they do in fact use italics for ship CLASS names in addition to individual ship names. Ergo, I just took full advantage of their 'Contact Us' messaging facility and made my case before the bureaucratic monster otherwise known as the USN. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Tom. xl_five_lx 18:47 30 July 2007

I own three of Norman Friedman's Illustrated Design Histories (Battleships, Submarines to 1945, and Submarines since 1945), and they all italicize classes. In addition, Garzke and Dulin's Battleships: United States Battleships, 1935-1992 italicize classes. These four books were published by the US Naval Institute Press. TomTheHand 00:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Norman Polmar's The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet, published by the Naval Institute Press, capitalizes both individual ship names and class names, without italics, in all text, including the introductory essay on the state of the fleet. (I don't know if this format was used in this work when it was written by Fahey-- there are many editions.) There appears to be no one consistent style here, even among Naval Institute publications, and there is no one "correct" or "incorrect" style. Kablammo 00:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I had hoped this horse was long dead by now, but I see that it is not. I concede your collective victory.

If, as you claim, there is no correct nor incorrect way of citing ship class names, then why is it permissable for Benea to have gone back and changed all my work on that Casablanca thread to suit his liking - after, repeat, after, this whole discourse had reached port?

If the final analysis is that it is suited to taste then I choose a clear distinction between a class name vs. an individual ship name. It is this precise distinction that USNIP is trying to impress upon the community of those who write on naval topics. You cannot have it both ways. First, fend off my assertion by producing a littany of exceptions to the proverbial rule in support of the view there is no right nor wrong way and then go back and change someone's work to suit your personal view! Right? Quite right.

If there indeed is no correct nor incorrect way to cite ship class names, as seems to be the consensus all yesterday afternoon into night, then there certainly can be no objection to restoring the way it was written and intended to be read by the writer - whomever that writer shall be. Right? Again, quite right.

In other words, how can any of us hereafter pass judgement on whether one italicizes ship class names or if one chooses not to if the consensus agreed it is a matter of choice?

I'm glad the issue is now finally settled. Thank you. xl_five_lx 00:28 31 July 2007

I think you'll find that the consensus was that Misplaced Pages naming conventions are not bound to follow the USNIP style manual that you cited. Nobody but you is claiming that there is a right way or wrong way to write class names. All stylistic and orthographic conventions (including Misplaced Pages's and the USNIP's) are arbitrary, and all have a common purpose to ensure similarity in usage across different works written by different authors (in Misplaced Pages's case, across hundreds of articles contributed to by hundreds of editors). The USNIP's style guide is enforced (or not!) by an editorial team rather than by a community consensus. If you're unhappy with the conventions here, then you should see if you can build consensus to revise them. --Rlandmann 05:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely no need to try and lobby nor garner support for something that already exists. If neither is right while neither is wrong, then one can choose as he/she sees fit. With such an existing state I have no desire to change the convention. /s/ Happy as a Clam, I am. xl_five_lx 02:30 31 July 2007

Neither is right and neither is wrong, but on Misplaced Pages, one is conventional, and one is not; just as for the USNIP one is conventional and one is not. Of course, you are free to contribute here in whatever form you prefer; but you must expect the community to edit your contributions to make them align with the conventions that we use, in precisely the same way that you would expect an editor at USNIP to edit a manuscript you submitted there to make it conform to their style. --Rlandmann 07:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the point just there: the Misplaced Pages style guide is that class names should be italicised, except where the class name is not that of the lead ship. Most publications that I am personally familiar with seem to follow this methodology. The USNIP is only one publisher, and its style is no more right or wrong than any other. Martocticvs 17:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the point I've been trying to make. I have not changed the style to what it was to "suit liking - after, repeat, after, this whole discourse had reached port?" (I like your nautical analogy by the way). What we had agreed was that the USNIP was not as sancrosanct as you made out and there really is no globally accepted style, not even in the US, not even in the one publishing house. We wikipedians have therefore reached consensus as to which style we used, and if you use a different one, an editor will likely assume that the style you used was an oversight and will correct it, as I did with your Casablanca class.

I'm also a little concerned about you viewing this as some sort of a battle. If you go about with that sort of attitude it's likely that you'll get into a lot of arguments, in which case your choice of the Bismarck to represent your position was quite apt, you might find yourself blown out of the water. Read WP:CONS, and the other editing guidlines, and you'll be back on course, and happy sailing to you. Salutations from the Prince of Wales, Benea 18:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

lol. You're in shoal waters now, mister. I never once so much as mentioned the Bismarck. Speaking of her though, seems you've chosen to sail aboard a ship that didn't last much longer than she did! And this despite Lutjens' gracious generosity that gray day in company with Prinz Eugen. Bit of advice to you, my friend, stay out the Indian Ocean, wear a life preserver at all times (including when you sleep and visit the head), and put in for immediate transfer to a shore station. Does the RN maintain a sheepherder rating? If so, the Falklands are lovely this time of year. But if you can't score a shore billet, then at least move to a ship with a future. I have friends aboard the HMS Pedantic and HMS Neurotic who say they could really use a fella like you. Send along your transfer papers and I'll be sure to add my glowing endorsement! ))) Xl five lx 00:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well quite so old boy, laughing out loud indeed. Forgive me, but I believe you started the reference to Bismarck with, and I quote with the degree of pedantry you so kindly attribute me with, "Not unlike Admiral Lutjens allowing the Prince of Wales to live to fight another day". And indeed the fate of Prince of Wales had also occured to me as I wrote it, but it seemed even more apt to me. None of us are invincible. If I violate guidelines, I too may be sunk. I had meant it as a friendly parting, as one ship to another. Perhaps, like the Prince of Wales, it missed its mark. I also try to wear a lifebelt at all times, and have been known to duck for cover when aeroplanes are spotted overhead. I am also unsurprised to find you have friends on those two fine ships. I believe they are missing their captain however. Perhaps you should rejoin them post haste!

In all seriousness, I don't mind a joke but I think your intention was to offend me rather than provide some friendly banter. I'm not sure how I've earned your emnity in this way. Perhaps because I was the one who was most vocal in trying to point out guidelines to you, and was the most nettled by your earlier comments. Please read WP:CIVIL. Implying I'm "Pedantic", "Neurotic" and a "sheepherder" may well be true, but still comes across as rather bad manners, as well as somewhat stretching the point about the nautical anology. Is it a veiled hint for me to bow out? But then again I might have the wrong end of the stick. We British are rather well known as a nation for our dry wit, which doesn't come over well without all the facial expressions/gestures/secret handshakes. Please feel free to clarify, or insult me slightly more explicitly. If anyone else feels they want to weigh in on this, then please feel free. Kind regards, etc, etc. Benea 00:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Warrior

Hi all. I am working on expanding Misplaced Pages's coverage of the Black Hawk War of 1832. It seems during the Battle/Massacre at Bad Axe a steamship? gunboat was involved. It was called the Warrior, maybe the USS Warrior. Any help from ship gurus would be greatly appreciated as I would like to see this article created as part of my Black Hawk War project. Thanks. IvoShandor 17:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Dr. James Lewis, Professor Northern Illinois University wrote a piece on the Black Hawk War of 1832 in which you'll find:

"On August 1, Black Hawk's band of perhaps five hundred men, women, and children reached the eastern bank of the Mississippi, a few miles downriver from the Bad Axe. The leaders called a council meeting in which Black Hawk and the Winnebago prophet White Cloud suggested breaking into small groups, turning north, and hiding out in the Winnebago villages. But most of the Sauks and Foxes wanted to build rafts or canoes and cross the river as quickly as possible.

"Some got across the Mississippi that day. But the crossing was checked when the steamboat Warrior approached. Privately built and owned, the Warrior had been chartered by an army major a few days earlier to take a message to the Sioux. Armed with an artillery piece and guarded by twenty soldiers, the Warrior was returning from this mission when it came upon the Sauks and Foxes trying to escape to safety. With the Warrior armed and anchored just fifty yards from shore, the Sauks and Foxes abandoned their efforts to cross the river. Under a white flag, Black Hawk waded out into the river and tried, once again, to surrender. As at Stillman's Run and Wisconsin Heights, however, the soldiers could not understand him. After ten or fifteen minutes of failed communications, the soldiers on the Warrior opened fire on the unprepared Sauks and Foxes. A number of the warriors around Black Hawk died instantly; the rest found cover and opened fire. After a two hour fire-fight, the Warrior's fuel supply was nearly exhausted and it headed off downriver.

"The battle with the Warrior left nearly two dozen Sauk and Fox warriors dead."

Sounds interesting. Good luck from here. xl_five_lx 23:49 01AUG07

I appreciate it. I have actually come across that source in my work on the war and planned to include that information in Battle of Bad Axe. I am specifically looking for information on the ship and its history for the article on the ship. Thanks again though. IvoShandor 15:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

DANFS doesn't list a Warrior, so the ship was never commissioned in the Navy, so it's not "USS Warrior".

In addition to the above, I found

At Prairie du Chien, Captain Loomis charters the new steamboat Warrior. He orders Lieutenant and Quartermaster James W. Kinsbury to take charge of a detachment of fifteen soldiers and five volunteers, load a six pounder cannon and ammunition on board, and steam north on the Mississippi to the village of the Sioux chief Wa-ba-shaw. Kingsbury is to inform Wa-ba-shaw that the "Sacs and Foxes were flying before the Americans and were expected to cross the Mississippi into their Country, which we hoped to prevent." The goal is to enlist the influential Wa-ba-shaw to bring warriors south on the west side of the Mississippi to prevent the escape of Black Hawk's followers should they cross the river. Captain Joseph Throckmorton commands Warrior, which he pilots the 120 miles north on the Mississippi River to Wa-ba-shaw's village.

http://www.geocities.com/old_lead/bhwchron2.htm

and a book, The Sauks and the Black Hawk War:

Perry Armstrong wrote one of the first comprehensive histories of the Black Hawk War in 1886. Based on interviews with participants and witnesses, as well as visits to prominent battle sites, Perry presented a surprisingly balanced and sympathetic portrait of Black Hawk and his people. In this section, Armstrong describes the massacre of Sauks at the cruelly misnamed Battle of Bad Axe in August of 1832. Over 400 Indians were killed despite repeated attempts to surrender to American forces. Included in the text is a letter written by Captain Throckmorton, captain of the steamboat Warrior that fired on the Indians.

http://wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=1396

The letter is on pages 467–8. Armstrong took a dim view of Throckmorton:

"... most inhuman and dastardly action ... And by this letter Capt. Throckmorton wrote himself down in history as a second Nero or Calligula — as heartless as a stone, remorseless as the sea and cruel as death. ... Such a brute not only was a disgrace to the service but a slander upon the word man. ... To call him coward would be to admit that he had some of the attributes of manhood, which would be flattering the cold-blooded butcher."

No concerns about NPOV there!

—wwoods 17:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

On occasion, DANFS simply hasn't gotten around to adding certain minor vessels yet. So, to make certain, I called Bob Cressman, Naval Historical Center, Ship's History Branch, Director DANFS. There indeed was no Warrior commissioned in the US Navy at that time, however, there was a Warrior of much later vintage - a small mine craft. The Loomis and Kingsbury information I hadn't found, but I have been reading the second book cited above - the overly opinionated one - and all about Army Captain Throckmorton for the past few hours. It's interesting. Seems this Black Hawk was quite the tactician. Anayway, I think with what has been presented here so far, it would seem Dr. Lewis had it right in that the Army chartered a privately owned and built steamboat named the Warrior. It would have been nice to have found you characteristics of the ship beyond what can be gleaned by reading the online book, but there is much there if you look for it. Use the link wwoods posted or here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XfkfC5mOPdoC&dq=black+hawk+war+steamboat+warrior&pg=RA2-PA467&ots=Je2KG4jfCK&sig=Jh6IXjv9Bks3NV9bORfKyhHGSg4&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dblack%2Bhawk%2Bwar%2Bsteamboat%2Bwarrior&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1#PRA2-PA529,M1

This one will take you directly to all three sections involving Warrior. Good luck. xl_five_lx 13:47 02AUG07

Wow, thank you both so much for going so far above and beyond the call of duty, this is so awesome. I knew this project was pretty active but this is amazing. Thank you both so much. IvoShandor 17:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure how I missed this stuff in the first place, thanks again. IvoShandor 17:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Lieutenant Zatsarenniy

Can someone write an article on the Russian destroyer Lieutenant Zatsarenniy, which blew up on a German mine in 1917? Its shipwreck was located a couple of days ago by Russian divers on the bottom of the Black Sea near the Snake Island. KNewman 18:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Paul G. Halpern's exhaustive tome "A Naval History of World War I", 1994, USNIP touches on the circumstances that caused the sinking of Russian destroyer Leitenant Zatzarenni, note correct Russian spelling. I don't feel it alone is enough to write a proper piece on the sinking, but it will make a very solid jumping off point for whomever is interested in taking this on.

According to Halpern, Leitenant Zatzarenni sank 30JUN17 on a mine sowed just days earlier by the Turco-German forces cruiser Breslau. In the early morning hours of 25JUN17, the Breslau had laid seventy (70) mines off the mouth of the Danube, followed by another ten (10) off Fidonisi Island, which to the Germans was then known as Schlangen Island.

It seems that both sides were running concurrent mining operations in areas not too distant from each other, as a covering force for a nearby Russian mining force chased Breslau all the way back to port in a running battle the day after she laid the eighty mines. Just four days later, the Leitenant Zatzarenni was sunk.

Dr. Halpern, Professor of History at Florida State University, is a source worth consulting. xl_five_lx 10:08 02AUG07

I created the page "Leytenant Zatsarenni", with the information I had at hand. However, I won't have access to any good sources until the next time I'm going to the military academy library, which will be in a couple of weeks time. --MoRsE 16:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

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