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see mena suvari tuleb sealt kiiresti ära koristada. ja üealegi on seal kogu valik täiesti vale. aga pole hullu, kyll ma teen uue
I'm sorry, my estonian is not that good, but since this is the english wikipedia, i'd hope you could please translate your comment into english, thank you. Epf 20:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Mena Suvari
I have removed the photograph of Mena Suvari from this page. I have done so because this article is about Estonians - not people of Estonian ancestry. The page is entitled Estonians, not "People with some Estonian background". I can tell you, that as an Estonian, I view her as an American (which she most definitely is). If you wish to place her picture on a page, place it on a page of List of Estonian Americans or Estonian-American. This article is not about "descent" as you claim, but is entitled Estonians, not "People who have some tentative "ethnic" connection twice removed from Estonia". This page deals with Estonian nationals and emigrés, and Suvari is neither. She doesn't belong on this page any more than her picture should be on the main page for Greeks. There are far better examples of actual Estonians to represent Estonians than a foreigner of rather tentative connections to the country.
Just as an aside, you are Canadian, correct? Would you place the photograph of some popular Quebec celebrity of half Swedish, half Quebecoise on the page of French people? ExRat 08:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is not about simply Estonian nationals, it is about ethnic Estonians, that is those who identify with the Estonian ethnic group (based on common culture, language and common descent). When you are of significant Estoninan ancestry/descent/ethnic origin, you alrady have ethnic traits (biological, psycho-behavioural, linguistic, religious, cultural, etc.) associated with other ethnic Estonians. She is an American, but that is based on nationality, not ethnicity, since there is really no unified "American" ethnic group. Just because you are born or live in a certain nation, does not mean your own familial culture and descent is somehow negated or you automaticcaly become part of another ethnic group. This article deals with ethnic Estonians in Estonia and those outside Estonia as well as their descendants who still reatin significant Estonian heritage or descent. Her father was an ethnic Estonian from Estonia and therfore she is half-Estonian, and due to the very recent and significant heritage of such, clearly retains many ethnic elements. Of course you want alot of indigenous ethnic Estonians from or living in Estonia represented since they maintain all the ethno-cultural traits, but this doesn't mean you exclude those of Estonian heritage outside of Estonia.
And, I am a Canadian national, but few people here identify as Canadian ethnically or in terms of actual ethnic origin since we're one of, if not the, most diverse and multicultural societies on the planet, and still have various indigenous/abroginal Canadian ethnic groups which retain their identities across the country. Canada rightly values diversity and multi-culturalism and thats perhaps what is most unifying about our country. Ethnically, I consider myself of British and Italian descent as you can see on my user page. I have many ethnic traits (especially from the Italian side) I don't share for example with French-Canadians (French-Canadian Quebecois included), Portuguese-Canadians, Aboriginal Canadians, Chinese-Canadians, "African"-Canadians etc. Epf 04:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying to me what an Estonian is :) I was very amused. Firstly, I dare you to add her photograph to the main page of list of Greek people and see what reception you get. Secondly, how do you know what "ethnic elements" she retains? Thirdly, there is no such thing as "being of significant Estonian ancestry" and having some inborn, innate predisposition psycho-behavioural traits. That is just ridiculous. So, tell me, what behavioural traits do we Estonians biologically have that separate us from others? What innate, inborn psychological traits does Mena Suvaru have from having an Estonian-born father? Absurd.
- As I have already stated, her photograph doesn't belong on this page any more than it does on the main page for Greek people. There are plenty of actual noteworthy and successful Estonians who better represent Estonians than some American actress of tentative Estonian connections. I think many Estonians find this sort of disregard insulting. I have reverted. ExRat 06:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
1)I would add her to the Greek people page and not be afraid to do so, but they already have enough variety of celebrity photos to fill the up the space 2)I can somewhat tell what ethnic elements she retains because it takes quite a degree of time and intermarriage to "lose" most of them, but she is first generation, her own living father an ethnic Estonian from Estonia, so obviously she retains a singificant degree of these traits. 3)Yes, there is a thing of being of significant Estonian descent that is usually having at least a quarter of such or more, but "significant" is obviously a subjective term. There are obviously inherited genotypic and phenotypic traits associated with ethnicity, and you sound ridiculous if you dis agree with such. Despite this though, we also learn various ethno-cultural traits from our parents and other family, including psycho-behavioural ones since we spend most of our important (younger) developing years around those who we descend from (our family). Obviously there are some traits which have higher averages amongst some groups of peoples than others, and if one were to make a detailed analysis of such (and some have been made) I guarantee you would see which traits are more prevalent among some populations (ethnic groups, "races", etc.) than others. Oh and BTW, nationality obviously is separate in most cases from ethnicity and ethnic groups/peoples are spread across national or political borders.
I have stated that yes you could find better candidates who are of full Estonian descent and from Estonia that would better represent the page because they retain all or a great majority of ethnic Estonian characterisitics. However, I havent found such on Misplaced Pages and Mena Suvari is ethnically half Estonian with her own living father she was raised by an ethnic Estonian from Estonia. Also, she is a famous actor and there aren't many other known Estonian-American actors or actresses in hollywood as well known as her and I don't think many Estonians would be disgusted but that the vast majority would in fact be proud that she is of Estonian heritage and proudly acknowledges such. Ciao, Epf 07:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Again, thank you ever so much for telling me all about Estonians and what they believe and what they are comprised of. So, this is the criteria for inclusion now - what Epf can determine by looking at someoen what "traits" they have? Also, if you can not find a better candidate to represent Estonians for this page (or any other) then why don't you let an Estonian gauge that? Because I can tell you that I can think of plenty with Wiki bios.
- I also never said whatsoever that their is no such thing as being of Estonian descent - I said there is no such thing as an innate, inborn "psycho-behavioural" trait common to any ethnic group, and for you to say so is ridiculous. Why don't you concentrate more on subject matters you are more familiar with, such as Canadians?
- I also never said Estonians were "disgusted" by her. I said that it is offensive for someone (a non-Estonian) to try to determine for us who best typifies an "Estonian". But, it was nice for you to speak for all Estonians about how we feel about Mena Suvari.
- I will reiterate, how do you know what traits she has? Somehow you are able to determine a person's traits you don't even know and that should be good criteria for inclusion in an encylopaedia?
- And lastly, the page doesn't need another photo anyway - it makes the box far too large and look bulky. ExRat 09:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- 1) I again tell you that there are others who may be better candidates but none that I've seen with valid photos. Also, Misplaced Pages is for everyone, but I am very interested in anthropology and have been so for quite some time, especially European peoples. I am not saying who should be included, I am only saying what traits are associated with descent and therfore with ethnic identity.
2) I never said that there is an "innate, inborn 'psycho-behavioural' trait common to any ethnic group", but there are psycho-behavioural and other cultural traits which are learned/passed down via your family/ancestors which are common to various ethnic groups. The fact you disagree with this is amusing to me and I wonder if you know what behavioural psychology or even ethnicity is. I am focusing on matters I am most familiar with: anthropology and European ethnic groups.
3) I am not trying to best typify what an Estonian is, I'm merely saying her photo can be included since she is ethnically Estonian, being half ethnic Estonian descent. She also helps resemble the significant Estonian diaspora and their presence elsewhere in the world.
4) I only know what traits she has because she is of very recent Estonian descent and identifies at least in part as ethnically Estonian. Obviously she has the genotypic/phenotypic traits which are genetically inherited, but also at least the psycho-behavioiural traits which would not somehow "disappear" after only one generation. I am able to deduce this because she acknowledges herself she is half-Estonian and her father is an ethnic Estonian from Estonia.
5)Finally it may look too large but the photo in turn exemplifies a very notable Estonian and the Estonian diaspora. Epf 10:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Again, how do you know what "psycho-behavioural and other cultural traits" Suvari has? Simply because she has an Estonian-born father means little. How do you know what suposed "psycho-behavioural traits" she has that are "typical" of Estonians? Have you met her? What "behavioural" traits does she have that you are able to pin-point as "Estonian behavioural traits"? This has become nothing more than a a North American's stereoyping and generalisation of various nationalities and I find it ridiculous. I am very interested to learn from you what "psycho-behavioural traits" we Estonians all share. Please, enlighten me.
- Also, for someone who is studying anthropology, you seem to have a very loose interpretation of what defines ethnicity and seem to enjoy the idea that there are somehow specific blanket terms that can be claimed as "traits" to sum up entire peoples. I would call this POV and against Wiki policy. ExRat 03:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- I do not know which exact traits she has, but I do know she does have them considering her father is an indigenous ethnic Estonian from Estonia (therefore she automatically has the common descent and at least some associated traits), and he was not simply a national or person born in Estonia. I havent met her but she acknowledges her Estonian heritage proudly and in any case, everyone has these traits associated with a common descent since they are not easily lost, and definitely not after only one generation. I again can not pin-point what these traits exactly are but obviously they are there since they exist with all peoples of a common descent. This is nowhere near some "North American's stereotyping and generalisation of various nationalities" and is based on anthropological and biological facts held anywhere. Also, I point out that we are talking about ethnic Estonians, based on identifcation of common elements of culture and descent (and traits associated with such). I told you before I do not exactly know what psycho-behavioural traits ethnic Estonians mainly show on average (this doesnt include other people who are born in Estonia that do not share the common descent all ethnic Estonians share and are therefore not ethnic Estonians), but they obviously do exist since all ethnic Estonians are indigenous to Estonia and can trace a shared genealogy.
- I am someone who has long had a passion for this subject area and I have a very accurate and widely accepted interpetation of what defines ethnicity. It is a population that identifies with each other based on common descent and various traits (genotypic/phenotypic, cultural, linguistic, psycho-behavioural, familial/traditoinal, etc.) which may or may not be associated with such. I would call this widely held scientific opinion as well as verified fact that is in no way against Misplaced Pages's policy. It is only at odds with your own issues on the subject area for some bizarre reasons. Ciao, Epf 08:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Mena Suvari is less Estonian than Winston Churchill was American. Winston Churchill's mother was an American, and he could speak the language of both of his parents. There is no evidence of Mena Suvari's command of Estonian and Greek languages. Cheers, --3 Löwi 09:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Umm, his mother was an American national, but she wasn't simply "American" and I believe was mainly Dutch and British descent. In any case, she is half-Estonian and I don't believe she can speak Estonian fluently, but so what, she still probably knows many phrases most non-Esontinans dont know and probably has other traditional/familial, cultural, behavioural, religous and/or genotypic/phenotypic traits assoicated with ethnic Estonians (especially since shes first generation, her father an ethnic Estonian emigrant from Estonia). Epf 04:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Your conversation is very interesting. It seems that in USA people are proud of their origins
but in Europe a serious study about these subjects it could be understood as too 'volkish' (demagogical nationalism). I am european but in this subject I am pro USA.
Well, in Estonia I'd say that we usually don't perceive emigré Estonians as Estonians anymore. After all, the immigration-based countries as Canada or Australia, but most of all and especially USA are real meltpots, where people simply lose their nationality, previous culture, language simply within few generations, probably much faster.
Estonia is a nation-state. It's deeply encoded into our constitution:) So I think that we get to decide ourselves who are Estonians and who aren't. It's not just blood or your grandparent's birth certificate. It's also very much about language, culture, beliefs. And people on the other side of the globe, who only speak English, have some very blurry idea about where Estonia is situated at, know absolutely nothing about Estonian culture, and most of all - are not returning anymore - if they don't want to live in Estonian's own nation-state then it's safe to say that they're happily been transformed into anonymus yankees or canucks, who's heritage isn't more than another smalltalk subject over coffee. (It turned out bit too strong, but reality always bites) Sorent 00:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Canada
The page says, some 30,000 Estonians live in Canada. That is also the number widely acknowledged in Estonia. But the homepage of the Estonian Central Council in Canada says, only 10,848 Estonians do live in Canada - http://www.ekn.ca/edemog.php . So, which number is more accurate? 87.119.165.214 11:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The 10,848 one. I know, because I live in Canada. Most people here who are from Eastern Europe are Russian, Polish, Croatian and Ukrainian. --24.87.7.43 21:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)ggg
"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Changes to table up right
The claim about 20 000 estonians in Brazil is hugely different of whats given by any serious source (let's only take Hill Kulu's "Eestlased maailmas"). The number was accounted to be more than 10x less at its peak, currently - could somebody give some newest info? It seems that historically instead in that place should stand Australia, which was alongside (although with some difference) with US, CA and SE one of the most popular places of residence since 1950s. In Australia however, assimilation is been the strongest and the number was accounted to 6-6,5 th.. Newer (2,5 th.) is a reference to birthplace.
Thus I made some changes here according to fastest found solid source in net - a work on about a bit different matter (Inga Kask "Eestlaste tagasiränne Eestisse ..." is about the re-emigration to Estonia since 1990s), because it's addition (Lisa 1 starting at page 90)
http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/10062/1297/5/kaskinga.pdf
Another change concerns the matter discussed previously here about 10 000 or 30 000 estonians in Canada. Due the assimilation the number of estonian diaspora has obviously diminished strongly during years and numbers, which once were valid, shrink (exception - new emigration into Finland since 1990s). How many of them should be accounted as estonians or instead only as people with estonian heritage, is, well, sadly a thematics which is and will be discussable whilest data sources do not explain fully the backgrounds of the respondents. Took here the middle way and made 30 000 to 22 000 according to referred source, which is using THIS:
as its source.
But i'm sure that when somebody starts with an article about estonians in Canada, this should be discussed somewhat longer, whilest it's well possible that 10 000 is closer to reality today. Sadly don't know what's the source for EKN - some other study or only their networks (in the estonian societies).
Result is still somewhat different from the numbers in Estonian wiki
http://et.wikipedia.org/Väliseestlased
But it seems that in this question only a general fitting is possible, not exact matches.
Parakaru 08:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Arrival in Europe
Is there anything to support the rather bold claims that Estonians were among the first to arrive in Europe? I know that for every single people in Europe, there are some nationalists trying to show that "their" people were the first, best, largest etc. It's not very scientific and usually just gives a negative perception. If there's any source for these claims (except Kalevi Wiik, Ago Kunnap, Erich von Däniken and Monty Python), it should be inserted. JdeJ 15:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Using Lonely Planet as the source for claiming that Estonians are the oldest people in Europe is not a very good source. Especially not since the source doesn't even support that statement. Saying that any given group in Europe is older than any other is very dubious at best. People have mixed with each other in this continent for tens of thousands of years and to speak of one group of people having a well-defined ethnicity that they don't share with other peoples is simply not possible. The ancestors of the present inhabitants of Europe have not arrived in large Indo-European and ] waves, the languages arrived that way and were taken up by the original peoples in the same way that the spread of English to Ireland didn't involve any mass influx of Englishmen (except in Northern Ireland) and the disapperance of Occitan and Breton in France was the consequence of language change, not population movements. Almost all Europeans are descendants of the many peoples who inhabited Europe before the arrival of all modern European languages (with the possible exception of Basque), making any claims for a certain ethnicity to be older than any other more a nationalist argument with little or no accuracy. JdeJ 20:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Older than any other"? Certainly not. There had been people in many regions of Europe, even territories of what ended up becoming Estonia (modulo the geological changes) before. These people in question were merely among earliest to settle in Europe, and then stay put. Most of the other people whose descendants are currently settling Europe came in later waves; great numbers arrived even after the Roman times.
- And the reasons for that are not really cultural nor tied to your supposed primacy in any way -- they're purely technological, and somewhat, geological. If there hadn't been the Baltic Sea (or, well, its precedent bodies of water), the Westward migration would have continued for some more time, and the settling would accordingly have taken more time. If there hadn't been the Ice Age, the migration would have been faster, and so would have been the settling. Similarly, if cold-tolerant breeds of grain had been available earlier, the settling, and population's expansion, would have been faster. Digwuren 05:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)