User talk:MastCell - Misplaced Pages

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Welcome to Misplaced Pages!

Dear MastCell: Welcome to Misplaced Pages, a free and open-content encyclopedia. I hope you enjoy contributing. To help get you settled in, I thought you might find the following pages useful: i

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User:70.110.190.189

Hello, MastCell. I noticed that you recently blocked the anonymous user at 70.110.190.189 (the user in question has also edited from other 70.* addresses, and as User:Stevewk)- I just wanted to alert you that he appears to have returned, recognizable from his hostile edit warring pattern and pages of interest, as User:Gwilmont. I wasn't sure of the right avenue to pursue to deal with this problem, so I figured you might be able to advise me on it. I've been away from the Misplaced Pages project for a while and am trying to get reacquainted. Thanks. --ForbiddenWord 15:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

An obvious sockpuppet; I've blocked the account indefinitely. MastCell 15:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the fast reply! You're the man, MastCell! :) --ForbiddenWord 16:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Regulatory Toxicology & Pharmacology

Many thanks for sharing your information about Regulatory Toxicology & Pharmacology and for having unearthed the documents showing the close ties between this publication and the tobacco industry. These documents are illuminating, and they deserve to be made more visible and easily reachable for future reference. They are currently somehow difficult to locate, being deeply buried in a very long Talk page which contains a lot tedious discussions.

In passing, you may be interested to know (in case you didn't know already) that a somehow similar situation exists with the journal Inhalation Toxicology in which Enstrom and Kabat published their meta-analysis. The editor-in-chief of this journal, Donald E. Gardner, is a tobacco industry consultant who was recruited on behalf of Lorillard by the law firm Covington & Burling in 2000 (see , and ). --Dessources 22:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I had a feeling, based on the journal's name, that it was tied to the industry. By the way, at some point I'd like to create a set of articles on the International Society of the Built Environment and its journal, Indoor and Built Environment. This, as you probably know, is a well-documented example of a society and a journal created by the industry as an outlet for industry-friendly "research" which would not survive standard peer review. See, for example, PMID 15733724. I believe the society and journal are still operative; in any case, they were quite respectable to all appearances until the relevant documents were made public. If you're interested, let me know. MastCell 22:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am interested. --Dessources 23:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Great job!

Great job adminning so far! You're doing a brilliant job; we appreciate the hard work -- 205.211.160.1 00:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. MastCell 03:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Your block of Ionas68224

You invited comment on your block of User:Ionas68224. Although the user's behavior might fairly be described as trolling and might merit a block under other circumstances, I think we should be extremely reluctant to block anyone based on comments on an admin RfC. In the interest of transparency and accountability, which I mentioned in my outside view on Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Ryulong, we should bend over backward to ensure that criticisms of admins may be aired. Having some junk on the RfC page is an acceptable price to pay. Therefore, I don't agree with your block in that it was apparently based on the user's comments on that page. I haven't looked at the user's emails or edits to other pages. JamesMLane t c 04:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I hear you, and that's one reason I wanted to invite comment on the block. I have a slightly different take: RfC's are intended to gather community input, but as they single out a user for criticism they can turn into free-for-alls. There's recently been discussion about the number of productive users we've lost by being overly tolerant of clear harassment; perhaps that's influenced my take on the situation. I don't have a problem with him, or anyone, being critical. But it defeats the purpose of the RfC to have a huge sideshow created by someone who's basically shouting, "Hey, look at me! You're all Leninists! I hate the Kabbal ! I mentioned Daniel Brandt! Here's a Misplaced Pages Review link!" I just don't see a lot of constructive input there. I won't get into the emails or post-block contributions, because I hate it when admins justify a block by pointing to the user's behavior after the block. I am sensitive to the need for transparency and accountability; in fact, just today I complained on AN/I about the deletion of what seemed to be a properly certified RfC, so I'm wondering if I'm being consistent here. MastCell 05:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right that we certainly don't want to lose productive users because of harassment. On the other hand, admins have to expect a certain level of harassment. Those who don't want to be scrutinized in their use of the special admin tools shouldn't ask to be given those tools (or should relinquish them); they can contribute productively without being admins. I would definitely apply a different standard to admins. It's important to have a check on possible abuse of admin powers. From the point of view of the project, it's also problematic to impede criticism of admins, precisely because that provides ammunition to those who charge "Leninism" or who see a cabal. JamesMLane t c 12:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree; in fact, one of the concerns I raised at Ryulong's RfC was that of being overly sensitive to criticism. Certainly Ryulong's use of the tools is being scrutinized. I'm generally a big believer in accountability and such for admins. But that particular contributor, in my judgement, went beyond criticism or demanding accountability to simply trying to generate controversy for its own sake. Allowing and encouraging feedback, accountability, and constructive criticism of admins doesn't mean that we need to tolerate people who appear to be acting in bad faith or solely to generate controversy and get a rise out of people. Again, it's a judgement call. If another admin thought it appropriate to unblock him, I would be fine with that. An alternative, since his requests have already been declined here and on unblock-en-l, is to post this situation to AN/I in the interest of getting community feedback and accountability for me in terms of the block. I'd also be fine with that. Right now, though, given his behavior immediately before and after the block, I don't feel it would be appropriate to unblock him myself. MastCell 18:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

If I were an admin, I would've unblocked him, but I'm certainly not going to take the time to post it to AN/I. One reason I'm not an admin is that I don't want to spend time on stuff like that. :) JamesMLane t c 18:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:University of Oxford

Hi, I was reading through the article talk page here, and referred myself back to Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines to see if the sort of content under the section "Most selective? Discuss" was appropriate and what the guidelines where for removing text which constitutes a personal attack, and misrepresents other people. The guidelines also say in bold at the top of the page "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views". I wondered what advice you have on this? The guidelines on removing text from talk pages seem to be contrary to the guidelines on how talk pages should be used. Should I go ahead and archive the off-topic discussion about selection? Coldmachine 16:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It's unclear what the best approach is when an article talk page degenerates into random speculation, off-topic discussion, etc. Clearly the talk pages are meant to be used to discuss concrete improvements to the article, and not as a discussion forum on it (that's what USENET is for). In general, removing text from talk pages is a pretty drastic step. You can warn the ofending party with {{uw-chat1}} through uw-chat4. You can gently but firmly try to redirect them. Often this is enough. If it's not, then you can consider removing or archiving blatantly inflammatory or off-topic posts, but this is often a controversial action. Good luck. MastCell 15:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Passive smoking

MastCell, I wasn't even referring to you. While I disagree with you wholeheartedly, and loathe your editing, I perceive you as one of the cooler, more reasonable heads. For one thing, if you examine the record, I've been accused of the same things: bias, being misleading, advocacy, and so forth. I've even had Holy Scripture hurled at me, accusing me of damnable hypocrisy. I do, though, wish that you would see that accusations of bias and misleading contributions do not rise to the level of WP:NPA. What it does mean is that you are (or I am, whoever the object is) allegedly guilty of poor editing, and -- yes -- even of motives borne out of personal interest(s). I do think you are abusing the "good faith" assumption -- but you aren't the only one. You cannot make deliberately misleading edits and/or contributions (saying far more than the source does) under cover of "good faith". Chido6d 22:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah. MastCell 15:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Status of the Review Aritcle

Hi MastCell - how is the article on statins coming? Wiseoldowl 16:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't gotten around to working on it yet - in fact, I don't think I've made a single edit there since we last spoke. Amazing how many things come up around here... MastCell 15:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

We should probably do CML first, and then acquiesce to Wiseoldowl's request. JFW | T@lk 21:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That sounds fine. MastCell 21:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Pleased! Wiseoldowl 16:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Political correctness

I wonder if you'd mind taking a look at political correctness. From my perspective, this article was in pretty good shape until recently, but has come under attack from a couple of determined POV-pushers, similar to problems encountered in Passive smoking and elsewhere. Of course, YMMV. JQ 08:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I will take a look. I'm sure that article is a magnet for POV-pushing. MastCell 15:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

China allegations AfD

Thanks for your comment on the proposal. Perhaps you would consider revising your own vote on the AfD page? For example: "Merge and redirect to Human rights in China, and failing that, (H1.b)". In any case, I appreciate your consideration. HG | Talk 16:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Unwarranted warning by MastCell

I have been threatened with being blocked from editing by the above user, who has taken little part in the discussions apart from criticising my seriousness. This, he says, is because I continually revert and there is a revert war on this page.

By my count I have reverted twice today, and once yesterday, and that's it, in months! If this is a revert war, then I'm not in it, am I? Can I have an appology? I never break the 3-revert rule, and three reverts in two months represents restraint by most peoples standards? --Memestream 17:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm simply making you aware of the three-revert rule, if you weren't already. The other involved editors are already aware of it, but I didn't see confirmation that you had been apprised. You are, indeed, involved in an edit war. I'd suggest discussing your proposed additions a little further rather than reinserting them, as they seem to be meeting resistance from several other editors. Three reverts is not an entitlement, but an "electric fence"; the bottom line is that edit-warring is bad, and the onus is on editors who want to add content to justify it. I'm not threatening to block anyone at the moment; I just want to be sure you're aware of our policies on edit-warring. MastCell 17:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No, the bottom line is that reverting is not to be used to remove additional material, no matter how much it may appear POV. My careful contribution has been repeatedly deleted by reverting, and that is a clear contravention of the rules which say discuss and change but do not revert. Revert is for vandalism, which this is most certainly not - never for taking out material. You seem to consider me naive. Read the rules (as copied by me onto Political correctness and then tell me that they do not say this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Memestream (talk • contribs).

Edits which violate Misplaced Pages's policies are reverted all the time - it's not just vandalism. Bottom line: you need to work toward consensus on the talk page. Engaging in an edit war is not going to have the effect you want. MastCell 17:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No. While the general sentiment is correct, and exactly what I have been formost in doing, with support from another editor who treads carefully now after the page was improperly protected to shut him up, the use of revert that you suggest is strictly against policy:

Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Misplaced Pages, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate unless, and only unless, you as an editor possess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. MERE DISAGREEMENT IS NOT SUCH PROOF.

Generally there are misconceptions that problematic sections of an article or recent changes are the reasons for reverting or deletion. If they contain valid information, these texts should simply be edited and improved accordingly. Reverting is not a decision which should be taken lightly.

Which bit of this do you not get? --Memestream 18:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in arguing further with you. Read WP:EW and don't edit war. MastCell 18:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

MastCell please check out the editing at Evolution and Talk:Evolution. This individual also engaged in a personal attack here, which was rather strange. I think we have a problem with this user. OrangeMarlin 21:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Remember when I told you I could spot a sockpuppet? OrangeMarlin 22:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Think it's Raspor (talk · contribs)? MastCell 22:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

VacuousPoet (talk · contribs) and ImprobabilityDrive (talk · contribs). Exactly the same editing style. I'm trying to complete a FAC for Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, so I'm not paying attention to other articles too carefully, but I got involved when I saw a large number of odd edits to Evolution. The editing style and comments remind me of what I've observed previously, specifically at Talk:Creation-evolution controversy and the article itself. The claims to being a scientist, then completely missing the point of science is exactly the same. I need to do further research, but it would take me a day to build an appropriate case. OrangeMarlin 22:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

G-Unit

Hi, Thanks for protecting G-Unit, its been real annoying having to revert vandalism every 10 minutes every day all day. Thanks again! --The-G-Unit-Boss 20:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. You can always try WP:RFPP if it flares up again after this round of semiprotection expires. MastCell 20:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

WHICH PAGE CAN I CREATE?! I wanted to create an article about my profile on YouTube!KiaraFan13 22:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Answered on your talk page. MastCell 22:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Billy Ego / RJII sockpuppets

Operation Spooner appears to be the most recent. A ham-handed checkuser request seems to have got him off the hook for now. The endless-edit style is gone, for now, but it was also a matter of very public record that this was a tell-tale. The content of the edits is all too familiar. You've shown some interest in this case in the past. Thanks for that. For myself, I'm seriously considering moving my efforts to other encyclopedia sites. Misplaced Pages seems destined to be primarily a source of misinformation in my areas of interest and expertise. FWIW. Libertatia 00:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably block evasion

A user you blocked August 2 and apparently received abusive Email from, Ionas68224 is likely trying to bypass his block using the account Jdmorrison. The user seems to have gotten his new account blocked from 24 hours already for continuing his activities and is an admitted vandal from when he editted from IPs. The user included the iw: link on his Simple: userpage to his new account. It may require a checkuser to verify the accounts are socks, but the edits are notably similar enough to leave little doubt that he is both accounts. Creol 02:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC) (simple:admin)

Yup, it's him. He's already been indefinitely blocked for trolling. MastCell 15:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Spartanad

Thanks for your intervention. Unfortunately it looks like User:Spartanad just blanked your blocking message. I'm hoping that we can still keep him/her from going completely over to the dark side. Notmyrealname 02:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that--that's what I understood the rule to be. I thought you could archive these things, but deleting warnings and such was not allowed. Now that a few other editors are involved, I think I'm going to check out of this whole thing for a little while in any case. Notmyrealname 16:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope I'm not coming off as petty, but a newly-minted user by the handle of Tteppupkcos just posted a comment on the Talk:Arnoldo Aleman page that reads like something User:Spartanad would write. My concern is really that Spartanad might be using sockpuppets while on a block. Since you're the one who initiated the block, I'm posting this here. Notmyrealname 16:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely suspicious and worth keeping an eye on. If the user declares themselves as another single-purpose account pushing the same viewpoint, then I'd probably take action. For now, let's keep an eye on the account and the article. MastCell 16:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Article Assistance

MastCell - thanks for your assistance in the past. I was wondering if you can assist with a current dispute on an article. I am asking several admins to review a list of links for reliably. If you can simply take a moment and comment on those sources which are reliable enough for WP policy. Please see: User talk:Tiggerjay/Resolutions/1 Thanks in advance Tiggerjay 05:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on Britney Spears' album sales, but the only sources on the list that look reliable are Time and Forbes. Those should definitely take precedence over the other sites of more dubious provenance if their numbers don't agree. MastCell 15:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm no expert either, somehow I got caughtup in the edit war while RC Patrolling. :) So I decided to dive in a see if I could help facilitate a consensus. Tiggerjay 01:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

No, please

Don' be sorry, that's fine.

I got a bit upset by the WP:SPA reference, and I logged off to think about these problems (that's what I usually do to avoid stupid unnecessary disputes). Thinking about it, you were perfectly right ; no matter how many contribs I have on the French-speaking project, I'm still barely a WP:SPA on this WP... And I had not thought I was being provocative on the talk page, but yeah, again, my exasperated answers to his hijacking comments may look so.

Sorry for making such a mess of a few comments... Sometimes, it's just, too much. NicDumZ ~ 06:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page... I apologize. I wasn't referring to you as either a single-purpose account or as provoking Greg. I was referring to Jeemde (talk · contribs) in both cases. I apologize for the misunderstanding. MastCell 15:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, thank you for your precisions then. Not every contributors makes the efforts you do to be this courteous... I do appreciate this gesture. À la prochaine ! NicDumZ ~ 17:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of Israeli Apartheid

Hi, I appreciated your comments on the China AfD. Trying to sort out what I've learned. Perhaps you could give me some feedback on the framework, tone and content of my effort at Talk:Allegations of Israeli apartheid#Exploring the grounds for a consensus. Please reply on there or on my Talk, as you deem appropriate, or let me know if you'd rather not. Thanks! HG | Talk 12:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I Have A Question

Excuse me, do you know what kind of articles I can type? KiaraFan13 18:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see my earlier response on your talk page, describing the criteria that new articles need to meet. MastCell 18:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

re:Znypes

Hi, thanks for the support on this. All Znypes' socks were blocked indefinitely a while back but this one was not for some reason.... figured I'd give him/her the benefit of the doubt at least for a while, but the Love Train has officially stopped. I'll be on the lookout for "new" user names from this person, too. See ya! - eo 16:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry...

I did confuse your recent indefinite block with a previous "month long". The sock is still blocked now anyway. Regards, --Asterion 21:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Anoshirawan

thanks for blocking user:anoshirawan, but i think it's not enough because he/she will resume vandalising pages as soon as his block expires. this individual is not here to contribute but is here to vandalise all articles that he/she doesn't like. his/her's history has no contribution but just vandalising articles, especially those related to afghanistan. he/she believes that there is no afghanistan and that all the history of afghanistan should be history of iran. it's bizarre thinking but this is how all vandals think. i believe blocking anoshirawan permanently is the only solution, thanks.Mirrori1 16:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

If they continue their behavior after the block expires, then they'll be blocked for a signficantly longer period of time. MastCell 16:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

thanks, he/she has a tag-team partner, user:beh-nam, both have same identical p.o.v's on every subject.Mirrori1 16:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

user:anoshirawan is back now, in edit-war with me and other users. i warned him/her about 3RR and not to remove sourced info but the user ignores. please, if you can, fully protect Hotaki dynasty, Durrani Empire, and Ahmad Shah Abdali articles. there is not much to be added to those articles and please revert user:anoshirawan ridiculous edits. thank you,Mirrori1 01:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

user:beh-nam was previously adding tags on user:anoshirawan's user page.--->check here!.Mirrori1 01:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I asked Mirror to provide sources for the following article and he like the others ignored my sources and still removed them. I have nothing against Mirror or any of them but they cannot remove information that has more than one citations. I was blocked yesterday because of the 3RR but my information is not POV and it has been backed by sources always, for instance, In the Ahmad Shah Abdali article I provided numerous sources in english and Persian and they were removed by khampalak and Mirrori1, so I was forced to revert their vandalism. I hope you understand and these fake reports on me having close relations or a partnership with Behnam is not true. Thank you --Anoshirawan 08:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

re: your baseless accusation

I have not made vague accusations of antisemitism against anyone. If you read what I wrote, it's readily clear that others have made this accusation, not me. As for the rest of your bloviation, I'm not interested, thanks. Tomer 16:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to be interested. Just don't do it again; it violates WP:NPA in a pretty major way. The diff is here, and it's obvious that you are making the accusation. Hiding behind the passive voice ("charges have been leveled") and then denying you've made the accusation doesn't reflect very well on you, either. MastCell 16:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not hiding. If you're interested enough in the situation, go look. The charges have been made. What is obvious is that you'd prefer to attempt to intimidate me, for whatever reason, a violation of WP:CIV based on your misinterpretation of what I said, violating WP:AGF in the process. Still more bloviating, which doesn't reflect very well on you, either. Tomer 18:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Please don't quote policy on civility and good faith to me after your previous comments. If you're going to sling serious charges around, it's incumbent on you to actually back them up, or stop making them. MastCell 19:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I have slung nothing, except the accusation that you are perhaps more interested in commenting on discussions you know little to nothing about, rather than in participating in them. You, on the other hand, have slung serious charges against me, with no other evidence than your complete misinterpretation, willful now, obviously, of what I said. In any case, I'm not interested in further discussion with you. Good bye. Tomer 20:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't the Twilight Zone. You charged other editors and admins, one named and others alluded to, with anti-Semitism and provided no evidence, just bluster. Then you came here to spin your remarks and quote WP:CIV and WP:AGF to me when called on it. I'm fine with dropping this, so long as you don't make such egregious personal attacks without substantiation again. MastCell 20:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

kiss kiss

why was kiss kiss deleted it is the second single off the album, all other artists have pages for their singles. --FSX-2007 17:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It needs to have evidence of notability - see WP:MUSIC for guidelines. MastCell 17:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

speedy deletion

Hi, you left a note on my talk page about a speedy deletion. Did I make that article? Was it just a redirect? No biggie either way. I don't remember it and it's not like me to make a spam page. Gil Gamesh 21:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, looks like I left the note for the wrong person. More on your talk page. MastCell 21:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

User talk:69.115.162.235

Since you previously issued a block for similar behaviour, I thought you mind be interested to know that User:Jebbrady has resumed editing under this IP, as well as another IP at 208.253.158.36, all on the Herbert Armstrong article and related talk page. 24.6.65.83 01:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for unblock

Thank you for reviewing and unblocking User:Jeeny. With it being a 10 hour block, I was afraid that the block would expire before anyone reviewed the case, which would leave a stain on Jeeny's block record. Looking forward, I think that the user knows to be more careful, and also knows that if he does lose track that he can recognize and amend the mistake. That's particularly good because the user realized plainly that he had slipped up but didn't know that he could still make up for it by self-revert. That article (and related) can be pretty tense at time, but hopefully we won't have to go through this again. The Behnam 04:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Sheppard

Hi, re your deletion of my entry for F.S. Grimwade, I think you should restore it. He is an historically important figure, and as was indicated in the text, a member of a state legislature (see criteria quoted below). Also he has an extensive entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography (cited), indicating his importance and also the source for his dates.

thanks

"Politicians who have held international, national or statewide/provincewide office, and members and former members of a national, state or provincial legislatures."

Coughinink 23:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. MastCell 23:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Jim Inhofe

I don't know if your statement that the "scientific consensus" on global warming is beyond question is OR or not, but I have added data on a study of the published literature, which does not support your contention on this issue. People can agree or disagree on "scientific consensus" and global warming, but there is a lively debate on this subject, and deleting any reference or note to such debate to suit personal convictions would be wrong, in my opinion. - MSTCrow 23:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The scientific consensus itself is not beyond question - certainly there are still dissenters, and disagreement about specific predictions, etc. But the existence of a scientific consensus is well-supported. Calling it an "alleged scientific consensus" in the lead is POV, prejudicial, and inaccurate. If it's a matter of going around in circles about the definition of scientific consensus, then I'd favor something like "Inhofe is a critic of the widely accepted scientific belief that climate change..." MastCell 23:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The existence of consensus on the topic of climate change may be quite well supported. This does not mean that the other side is not just as well supported. Going by the published literature on climate change, Dr. Benny Peiser of John Moore University found that at most 1/3rd are in agreement with the "scientific consensus," and using an international study, German climate analyst Dennis Bray found that fewer than 1 in 10 climate scientists believe that climate change is primarily man made. I am not challenging the proposition that some believe there is a "scientific consensus" on global warming, but ignoring studies that would indicate the "scientific consensus" is a minority opinion would be wrong. Most people would not be aware of such things, and I think Misplaced Pages can help by presenting both sides of the issue, and not advocating one over the other, regardless of our personal viewpoints. I hope we can work together to ensure that all sides are aired, and presented in a non-biased fashion. - MSTCrow 00:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I know, you cited the Peiser paper, which if I understand correctly is from the early 1990's. You'll understand if I question its relevance in a discussion about whether a consensus exists today. There are a number of articles and POV forks dedicated to rehashing just these arguments. Surely on Jim Inhofe we can find a mutually acceptable wording which acknowledges the fact that most scientists and scientific organizations accept human activity as a cause of warming, rather than fighting the battle every time the term is mentioned? MastCell 00:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

The Pesier paper was written shortly after, and in response to, the Naomi Oreskes paper of 2004, titled "Beyond the Ivory Tower, The Scientific Consensus on Climage Change." I hope this clears up the issue of temporal relevance, as the Oreskes paper is certainly a frequently cited paper in support of the existence of scientific consensus on the subject of human activity and climate change.

What wording would you suggest? - MSTCrow 00:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I have located the Pesier paper for your perusal. It can be located at http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/Scienceletter.htm. The submission date is January 4th, 2005. - MSTCrow 00:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is the paper by Dennis Bray, http://downloads.heartland.org/17407.pdf. I think you will find both to have mounted strong arguments against the Oreskes position. - MSTCrow 00:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

The Peiser "paper" is formatted as a letter to the editor of Science. Yet I can't find it on PubMed. Was this letter ever actually published by Science, or are you holding up an unpublished letter to the editor, formatted as if it had been published in Science, as a rebuttal to Oreskes? MastCell 03:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Peiser's paper was rejected. Note that in the interim even Peiser has acknowledged the existence of a consensus, though to save face he adds the obvious point that the consensus is not unanimous. Raymond Arritt 03:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Aha. Thank you, Raymond. I guess I assumed it had actually been published somewhere. I didn't expect a rejected paper to be cited as a reliable source, or as debunking a widely cited study. If that's where the bar is, though, I have a few papers of my own which were rejected by Science, which I'll start citing immediately. MastCell 03:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

MastCell, you aren't acting in good faith on this. The contents of the letter are still valid. First you supposed it was from the early 1990s, and therefore was not relevant. I have demonstrated that it dates from 2005. Now you have proposed another innovative reason to dismiss the dissenting viewpoint and research therein. If I send a letter stating "X = X," and publisher Y does not publish it, that doesn't affect the reality of the statement, or that such an argument has been made. You are taking the position that unless publisher Y prints "X = X," it is not true, and the proposition itself does not exist. You are also ignoring the abstract from the GKSS Forschungszentrum, Geesthacht, Germany. Per above, what is your proposed "mutually acceptable wording?" - MSTCrow 19:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I think we all have some of those. ;-) Raymond Arritt 04:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

A little help on User Talk:THF?

I am trying to remove a comment I left where I commended Ted Frank on his editing that I don't think applies anymore, and he keeps re-adding it to is talk page. Can you please assist in this baby matter, and confirm to Ted that 1. he doesn't rule supreme over his discussion page; and 2. that I have a right to remove a comment I left, that now misrepresents me? Thank you. He was warned about behaving that way, removed the warning, left the comment.--David Shankbone 01:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest just striking it and leaving a second note that you no longer admire his editing. If he removes that and leaves only the praise behind, just let it go. Yes, he doesn't own his talk page, but fighting over such things is more trouble than it's worth (trust me, I've been down that road). MastCell 03:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Hotaki Dynasty origin and ethnicity

I noticed that you have dealt with some of the parties to this dispute, Mirrori1, Anoshirawan and User:Beh-nam. The RFC on the origin and ethnicity of the founder of the Hotaki dynasty are being conducted on the Hotaki dynasty talk page, as that is where a lot of the discussion of this issue has appeared. --Bejnar 17:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

No, really - use the talk page

You are once again removing well-sourced material without bothering to use the talk page (). You may wish to re-read WP:BLP, particularly the section which states: "If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." You may wish to tone down your constant complaints that well-sourced, mildly critical information is "defamatory", as they verge on a legal threat. There are avenues open to you if you disagree: you can go to the BLP noticeboard for outside opinions, or discuss things on the article talk page. If you continue to do neither of these and remove well-sourced content, that's a problem, and not a new one in your case, either. MastCell 21:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

your assertion that I am removing material without using the talk page is a falsehood. Why don't you read the talk page ? My comment on the talk page was up before your unfounded revert. Also, you have removed a completely accurate section without any justification, where I have edited to comply with your suggestion.

Your comment about the AJPH editorial is flatly wrong, as set out above. THe paper does not state that Milloy's website is an example of such an approach- it merely states that numerous subjects are labelled as junkscience on the site. While there may be an inference to be drawn from the AJPH article, it is wrong to state the inference as a fact when the article does not. This is yet another example of you making incorrect edits to suit your point of view. Peroxisome 22:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, can we centralize this in one place instead of cross-posting it? Preferably the article talk page? MastCell 22:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Speedy delete of pure crap

Thanks. KP Botany 02:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,Newyorkbrad 18:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment

Thank you for your comment on my RfA, which was successful. It was nice to see a familiar name on the list, especially with such positive things to say about me :) Lyrl _C 00:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)