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This article is in dire need of expansion so I have expanded it and added some references. Any help with references would be great. Kephera975 21:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Speaking of sources, the Clark source you used appears very dubious. The ISBN was good, but belonged to another (fictional) title, "The Broken Seal and Other Cases". I did a thorough search for the title you used, but came up empty handed on Google, Amazon.com and Amazon.uk. Any suggestions? Was it perhaps a self-published book that never got an ISBN? I'm afraid such a book couldn't be used as a reliable source. The book to which the ISBN belonged was published by "Authorhouse", a vanity press. IPSOS (talk) 00:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm still looking for better sources. If you are familiar with the history of the Golden Dawn, perhaps you could find some as well? This article definately needed to be expanded. Kephera975 01:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Title of article
- So what do you think about moving the article? Are the sources you list for the full name reliable? On the other hand, Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to be at the most commonly used form of the name, which I think is unarguably Alpha et Omega. If we keep it here, I think that name should be mentioned first, then (full name Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega) with the footnote. It's always best to make sure the first mention of the subject matches the title, then give the alternates and explanations. IPSOS (talk) 01:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. If we were to follow the logic of this argument to its logical conclusion, then user IPSOS would also be agruing that the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article should be truncated merely to Golden Dawn as well. The only possible reason that I can see for truncating the name of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega to Alpha et Omega and not truncatiing the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article to Golden Dawn is that this would serve the corporate interests of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. which has consistently attempted to misleadingly portray themselves as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and to gain an unfair business advantage over their main rival, the modern Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega. I believe that what is truly happenning here can only be fully understood by also considering that a Misplaced Pages administrator recently had to protect the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn page against what he called "HOGD, Inc. activism." It appears that this same activism may have spilled over to this page as well.--Rondus 18:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm. First on the moving question. How are you suggesting possibly moving it? Kephera975 01:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not. But since you've changed the bolded subject introduced in the article, I'm trying to find out whether you also think the article should be moved to match the title to that subject. Or should we reverse the order in which the common name and the full name are mentioned? IPSOS (talk) 03:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the common name for the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is the Golden Dawn. Therefore, it is my opinion that the full name should be the title and the common name should be used in most of the article so that it is not awkward, just like how it is done with the main article for the sake of uniformity. Kephera975 03:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I seem to have misplaced my Francis King book as far as the page number, but I'm sure it will turn up. Kephera975 03:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but in that case it's well-known and not obscure that that is the full name of the order. In this case, the full name is not well known and the short version is used almost everywhere. IPSOS (talk) 04:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- The correct name of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega is not obscure at all, although H.O.G.D. Corporate activist, IPSOS would like it to be. Either the entire name should be used as the title of the article, or the related Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article should have its title truncated to Golden Dawn as well. Of course, we all know why the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. corporate activists like user, IPSOS, oppose this. It would make it more difficult for them to go on inappropriately using Misplaced Pages as an advertising vehicle for their corporate interests.--Rondus 16:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but in that case it's well-known and not obscure that that is the full name of the order. In this case, the full name is not well known and the short version is used almost everywhere. IPSOS (talk) 04:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. IPSOS (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please note that I am not attacking User IPSOS. It was not I, but rather a Misplaced Pages adminstrator who protected the related Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn page due to that activities of user IPSOS and associates, which the administrator characterised as "HOGD, Inc ativism." I certainly intend no attack. User IPSOS hidden POV motivations, however, are highly relevant here --Rondus 17:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Accusing me of "hidden POV motivations" after I've repeatedly denied them is indeed a personal attack. IPSOS (talk) 17:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- For this, I apologize. How about toning down the rhetoric and discussing instead the issues of reliability iinstead of your making more reversions without discussing the relevant issues first here?--Rondus 17:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, you've gone too far. And I did discuss the book reference in the very first section of this page several days ago. Try reading the talk page yourself befire YOU revert. IPSOS (talk) 17:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
'Reliability of Sources: Regarding the correct name of the order about which this article is about, I have provided 3 separate sources a references. User IPSOS has accepted the Francis King source, yet insists that the other two are unreliable. Curiously, during the discussion of “The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc.” User IPSOS previously argued that material from the SRIA website should be considered reliable, yet the same user now argues that a facsimile of an original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega document from the same website is somehow unreliable. Let us give User IPSOS the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith anyway. Here are the references in question:
As a secondary reference, the cover of Enochian Chess: Book Three contains a facsimile reproduction of an original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega historical document, clearly demonstrating the correct name of the order.
As a tertiary reference, the website of the Societas Rosicruciana in America, has published a facsimile of an original historical document of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, clearly demonstrating the correct name of the order, at http://www.sria.org/alpha-omega-application.htm.
Steve Nichols is a well respected author within the field of Enochian Chess. Misplaced Pages rules regarding reliability indeed generally preclude self-published works, as authors may try to pose as experts. What we have here, however, is merely an author publishing a facsimile of an original Rosicrucian ORder of Alpha et Omega document. This is indeed reliable according to Misplaced Pages standards. Moreover, this is only a secondary reference, which is all the more reason that it should be kept.
I must admit that I personally do not believe that many of the claims made on the SRIAmerica website are reliable. However, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the facsimile reproduction of the original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega document in question itself is unreliable.--Rondus 17:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Uh, on an unreliable website, anything can be photoshopped. Plus even if it isn't, use of primary sources is original research. That document may or may not be from the organization cited. It could be from a similar organization in New Zealand or something. Without a reliable secondary source that analyzes its origins, both you and the site you are linking to are just guessing. In any case, if you want to use that site, I will insist that it also be acceptible to use in The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. which is likely to soon be restored. IPSOS (talk) 18:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
French Language Sources One of the reasons why this article has remained a stub for so long is because it is about a French organization. User IPSOS has consistently deleted each and every citation from a French language source. Please note that Misplaced Pages does not prohibit foreign language sources as references, but rather merely asks that preference be given to English language sources and that any foreign language references be properly documented. Let us assume good faith and that user IPSOS is not doing this merely to be obstructive to the development of this article beyond a stub. I would nonetheless like to request that user IPSOS please refrain form further deletion of references to French language sources. Since a great deal of material about this French order exists only in French, this is particularly important if this article is ever to be fully developed and not to remain little more than a stub.--Rondus 18:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't delete that, another editor did. Please be more careful with you reading of the history and diffs. I have other objections to that source, which is associated with a partisan profit-making organization. IPSOS (talk) 18:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Corporate Activism Vs. Historical Accuracy
The real reason why User IPSOS, is insisting on truncating the name of this historical order from the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega to its nickname, Alpha et Omega, is because there exists a modern order of the same name that is the major rival of H.O.G.D., Inc., for whom user IPSOS has been engaging in coordinated activism, together with users Parsifal, Glassfet, and HOGD120.
Pleae note that the related, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, page has presently been protected to prevent further such activism. To prove my point, here is a verifiable quote form Francis King, whom user IPSOS himself has elsewhere cited as reliable:
“On the whole of the flying rolls and other instructional material produced by the schismatic fraternities derived from the Golden Dawn after that orginization had broken up into internecine disputes (circa 1900) are of little interest. Notable exceptions to the general mediocrity are the papers of the Cromlech Temple, a side order to the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega -the name adopted after 1900 by those temples loyal to MacGregor Mathers.”
-King, Francis (1971). “Ritual Magic of the Golden Dawn”. Chapter 8, P. 195. ISBN: 9780892816170.--Rondus 15:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Since you've provided source, I will integrate it correctly. Thank you. And please stop with the personal attacks. IPSOS (talk) 16:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Again, there is no attack intended. However, I still believe that the characterization of your activitiies by the Misplaced Pages administrator that protected the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn page is relevant to the present discussion.--Rondus 17:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- And again, I've informed you that that characterization is incorrect. Discussion of sources is below. Why not respond about that? IPSOS (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Retaining "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" as Outer Order
I don't believe that this is accurate or that the source supports it. Please provide a quote. Even if it does, the link is misleading, because the page linked to is about the Order which was closed. IPSOS (talk) 03:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for bring this up on the talk page. As far as the contradiction you have placed on the page, are you talking about the Golden Dawn being the outer Order of the historical A+O?
- Here is the quote from the Greer book from Dion Fortune who was initiated into the A+O in part: ".. anyone who made a study of them also speedily found out that the system of correspomndences taught in the G.D. they had got something of inestimable value." That is straight from the lips of someone who was initiated into the outer order of the A+O in 1910. As Greer states: "Dion Fortune was initated into the London Temple of the A+O in 1919 under the leadership of Brodie-Innes." This is from page 350 in Women of the Golden Dawn. I hope you have it so you can look it up for yourself. Kephera975 03:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Who cares about the one that was closed. That is gone now. This is a better page about a notable historical organization. Kephera975 03:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Those quotes do not support the statement. IPSOS (talk) 03:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Umm. Please explain why. Dion Fortune was initiated into the A+O and called what she was taught in the A+O Golden Dawn teachings. That can only be due to the fact that the outer Order of the Organization was still called the Golden Dawn. Change it to just Golden Dawn if you like but that seems fairly incontavertible to me. Kephera975 03:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, that's reading between the lines and therefore original research. I don't dispute that people continued to colloqiually refer to the "Golden Dawn" material, they did so in Stella Matutina also, and Regardie published Stella Matutina material under that name. However, unless you can find a direct statement to the effect of what you wrote, you can't include it. It's an assumption. IPSOS (talk) 03:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Here's a fuller quote: "Dion Fortune was initiated into the London temple of the Alpha et Omega in 1919 under the leadership of Brodie-Innes. Her immediate teacher seems to have been Maiya Curtis-Webb, who later became Mrs. Trenchell-Hayes-a "walking encyclopaedia of occult knowledge." But Fortune found the Golden Dawn seriously lacking." Do you think Greer contradicts herself by calling it both Alpha et Omega and Golden Dawn? Greer's work is not original research. Kephera975 03:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I still think it is simply a colloquialism. Greer doesn't say that the A+O still formally used "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" as it's outer order. We can't assume anything from the sorts of references you are making. IPSOS (talk) 04:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I still think it does and that perhaps this is getting a bit too picky, but I can probably found another better quote and one that is more direct. Actually, I can probably find several sources for this. For now, I'll let that go. Kephera975 04:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also, it's not a colloquialism when an initiate of that historical organization called it the Golden Dawn. Kephera975 04:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. And I note that they didn't call it "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn". It's well known that the term "Golden Dawn" was used colloquially and even misused to refer to the the post-HOGD deriviatives. That doesn't make give it the significance you assert. A direct statement that such was the case is needed and the only thing that can support the kind of assertion you added to the article. IPSOS (talk) 04:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it 1906 or 1903?
Another contradiction you've inserted is that the old article and the current lead section based on Ruggiu say the A+O was founded in 1906. Later you say 1903 based on Greer. Is there really a discrepancy between the sources? Or is there a typo, or what? IPSOS (talk) 03:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, that was a typo. It should be 1906. Thanks for finding that. I'll correct it. Kephera975 04:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Say what the A+O is in the lead/first sentence or 2
It doesn't quite do this at the mo. I'll have a go but I don't know a lot about it so feel free 2 edit my gross errors.:) Remember most people won't have heard of the A+O, so rather than starting 'the A+O was started in the year 19--, ' it needs to say 'the a+o was an occult order type thingy.'Merkinsmum 23:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Reliability of references
You can't use the SRIA site. You've already argued on the The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. deletion that the source is unreliable. Plus is is self-published so by Misplaced Pages rules can only be used in an article about itself.
Second, you can't vaguely refer to a book and call it a citation. Please supply author, title and ISBN. I believe the book is question is published by vanity press and also can't be used. IPSOS (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Request for Comment: Title of the Article. Rosicrucian Order of A+O or just A+O
Template:RFCreli Editors can not agree whether the title of the article should be the full formal name Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega or the common name of Alpha et Omega. Kephera975 18:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not true. Per Misplaced Pages policy, the most commonly used variant should be used. That's Alpha et Omega as there is only 1 reliable source which says any different. However, since there is that reliable source, it is also appropriate to mention the uncommonly used full name at the beginning of the article, with citation. That has been done. There's really no conceivable issue here, given Misplaced Pages's clear policy. IPSOS (talk) 18:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)