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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sarvagnya (talk | contribs) at 17:40, 27 August 2007 (→[]: This article is a WP:POINT vio. Request admins to look into it.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Dravidian civilizations

Dravidian civilizations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

A synthesis of sources, a hoax and ethnocruft. Bakaman 02:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. Bakaman 02:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy keep. A quick search shows this is not a hoax and is covered by reputable academic sources (50+ hits in Google Scholar). Any OR or SYNTH can be dealt with editorially. I'm trying very hard to AGF in the nom. Dbromage  02:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

And I am trying very hard to AGF with you. Do you know anything about the subject that you're voting here? This is not about googling and getting some hits. Of course "Dravidian" is not a hoax. This article at best could be titled "South Indian civilisations"(sic). But if Wikiraja had done that, even people people like you who're obviously ignorant of the subject(the very fact that you had to even google for it) would have called his bluff. So he chose next best and called it "Dravidian civilisaitons" and by the looks of it, has already fooled some people. And just so you know, this article is a POINT vio too. Wikiraja has created this article after his "Dravidian civilsiations" template was deleted on the same "hoax" grounds. Sarvagnya 04:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Really, I seem to be getting 5 google hits for "dravidian civilizations".Bakaman 04:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Try "dravidian civilization" and "dravidian civilisation". Dbromage  04:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Close A Hoax? Really? Did they travel back in time and add their hoax to my copy of EB, or does the Hoax date from when it was published? I don't know about you, but any family of languages with over a hundred million speakers probably has a civilization to go with it. More seriously, I suppose there may be some concerns about this page, a lot of ethnic-pages on Misplaced Pages are natural targets for problems. I suggest engaging in work to improve it. It might be valid to merge this with Dravidian people but that's about it, and even then, I'm not certain of it. I'm really hoping this isn't a disruptive nomination, but I do have my doubts. Mister.Manticore 02:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the history of the page, it does seem there is a concern that this was aggregated from several existing pages. In that case, we may have a problem, since the edit history doesn't reflect those additions, which may be a GFDL attribution problem. Not an unsurmountable one though. Mister.Manticore 02:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Dbromage and Mister.Manticore. --Metropolitan90 03:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Looks like a grab-bag article, but the topic is certainly legit. MarkBul 03:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)— MarkBul (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Speedy delete - There just is nothing like "Dravidian civilisations"(sic). To fathom the absurdity, try picturing a "Indo-European civilisations"(sic) or Afro-Asiatic civilisations"(sic) etc.,. Sarvagnya 04:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing in your statement to indicate this qualifies under Speedy Delete criteria (which are listed at WP:CSD. As for your analogy, I'm not convinced that it's accurate. Could you explain further? And why shouldn't we have an article on either of those civilizations? Mister.Manticore 04:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Because those arent civilisations! Thats why. Those are language families! Wikiraja has simply culled info from articles relating to speakers of languages belonging to this language family and conjured his own 'civilisation' out of thin air! This is not like the 'Roman civilisation' or anything. There just is nothing like a "Dravidian" civilisation! Sarvagnya 04:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

To put it in perspective, let me break it up for you. German is an IE language. So is Hindi or Bengali. Now, we may at best imagine that there is something like a "German civilisation" or even a "Hindi civilisation"/"Bengali civilisation". That itself would be absurd. But then bringing all three under one roof and calling it "Indo European civilisations" is plain nonsense. Sarvagnya 04:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reliable scientific sources define "Dravidian civilisation". Dbromage  04:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You're asserting that they aren't civilizations, but the problem is, you're not showing why. I'm sorry, but you've failed to substantiate your argument, neither making the connection clear nor making the argument that the examples you gave don't merit articles. Besides, a quick book search gets me plenty of usages of the term, enough that I'm not going to take your comment on simple faith. And I can also find plenty of examples of German Civilization and Hindu] so I'm also unimpressed by that argument. Mister.Manticore 04:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

No they dont. Did you read those sources? They speculate about the Indus Valley civilization being Dravidian. This page adds wildly disparate material and attaches a tag-line to try and unify them in a revisionist manner.Bakaman 04:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's just your bare word, which I'm afraid I can't trust. That's a problem on Misplaced Pages in general, let alone with regards to highly charged situations like this which tend to lead to cases of POV-pushing in my experiences. As far as I can tell, I don't see any of those sources saying what you claim, let alone sources that refute that position. You're welcome to provide some if you like though. Just point them out. Though that might just lead to rewrite this article to take into account their disputes, not deletion. Mister.Manticore 04:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on this subject. But the arguments put forth by User: Sarvagnya strike me as almost bizarre. There are people in India and Sri Lanka today who are Dravidians, are there not? It is not automatic that they have a civilization, but it is not ridiculous for others to believe that they do. This comparison to Indo-Europeans is silly; no one walking around today calls himself an Indo-European or is called such by others. But there are people today called Dravidians. And they have historically (if I remember my history from over 30 years ago) been subjected to some significant degree of ostracism from the mainstream of the society of India, have they not? Seems like such a people could develop a culture, if not a civilization, of their own. Again, I am no authority, but explain to me why this cannot be so. Unschool 05:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If my analogy sounds bizarre to you, its only because this article happens to be equally bizarre. And no. There are nobody here who goes around calling themselves "Dravidians" except some Tamilians and their political parties who draw their 'intellectual'(sic) fodder from crank race theories of a certain E. V. Ramasami Naicker. These crank theories run almost parallel to the Nazi 'Aryan' theories and are far removed from how bonafide researchers define the word "Dravidian".

And they have historically (if I remember my history from over 30 years ago) been subjected to some significant degree of ostracism from the mainstream of the society of India, have they not? - I have absolutely no idea what you've been reading. But you probably should try looking under Dalit.

And as for your comment about India and Sri Lanka, I dont know what you're trying to hint at. But, there are people in both these countries who speak languages that belong to the Dravidian language family. That is about it. But that is not what this article is about at all! Sarvagnya 06:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously you wouldnt. You didnt read the sources, did you? No mainstream sources on google discuss it.

. But if you want something better, try

.Bakaman 05:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

That's *one* source. Wow. Let's see....there are how many other sources that *don't* say that? See, that's the problem with those sort of situation, one person can push their own POV. Thus you'll need *sources* and even then, it may not be possible to refute the others. Sorry, but what I'm seeing here is a classic case of one bias meeting another. Mister.Manticore 13:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy keep I have provided valid sources to the article Dravidian civilizations here. These are also from valid books including the title, author, and even the page numbers of where I found this. As for the other article called Dravidian people, if one were to take a close look at the article, it is nothing more than a biased proof page on whether Dravidians exist or not. Further more, it looks more like something I would find in a Nazi cookbook! However, in respects to Misplaced Pages standards, I have left that page alone and have contributed this article called Dravidian civilizations. In regards to comparing this situation with Europe, let me explain that in Europe itself you have the Spaniards, Portuguese, and Italians which belong to the Latino branch of ethnicities and languages, while in Northern Europe there are the Scandinavians which comprise of Swedish, Norwegians, and Danes. Lastly, why is it that articles such as this one including other related articles (such as Tamil people, and Tamil language, for example), have to be the ones to provide reliable sources for every nic and cranny? Here is another sad example of the Bharatanatyam page where the the dance needed five sources to prove it's true origins. The fiasco can be found on its talk page. Whereas, on sites such as these (Indo Aryans, Aryavarta, and Proto-Indo-Europeans) all they need are just one, two, or three referenced sources, page numbers not included. Even better, how about this article called Indo-Aryan languages. This article does not even have a single cited reference source! Wiki Raja 05:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment. That's cherry picking. See the other scientific sources on Google Scholar which define Dravidian civilisation, e.g. 'Journal of Ethnopharmacology, Journal of South Asian Studies, etc. Dbromage  05:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If thats cherry picking, would you be so kind as to spell out how your sources define it? All those sources when they use the term "Dravidian civilisations" only use it to describe a population that (probably) spoke a Dravidian language. Calling Carnatic music a "Dravidian" art is as absurd as saying Karate is "Japonic".

Strong keep. Dravidian civilization is a myth for people who want it to be. Otherwise it is mostly accepted. Genetic studies on human migration already suggest that Aryan-Dravidian patterns which along with historic suggestions point to one thing the existence of Dravidians. If you remove the Dravidian civilization and people out as hoax then there is no explanation for the existing genetic pattern in South Asian population. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 05:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

'Existence of Dravidians' only means that speakers of "Dravidian" language(s) may have existed. Nothing more. Nothing less. And what's with genetics now? I tried doing a ctrl-F for "genetics" in the article and didnt find anything to substantiate your line. Sarvagnya 05:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You will have to go through the references I have provided which show that people who speak the Dravidian languages were indeed the first population of the South Asia and the Aryan language speaking population migrated in later. I dont know why you did a ctrl-F instead of getting into the sources provided. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 06:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

So you're talking of c. 2000 BC etc. Right? You must be because, even according to AIT/AMT Indo Aryans were in South Asia since 1500 BC. But nothing on this page discusses anything from pre-'Aryan' times. You probably need to first get together with Wikiraja and ask him how he defines "Dravidian civilisation(s)". I'd be tagging this article for failing to provide enough context if I hadnt already tagged it for being a hoax! Sarvagnya 06:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Merge to Dravidian people, where those parts of it that survive OR-checking can be spun out to History of Dravidian people if necessary. Hornplease 06:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment In regards to Sarvagnya's suggestion, let me clearly state that the article Dravidian civilizations is about Dravidian civilizations. Secondly, this is not a proof page of who was in India first or not. Thirdly, merging the article would not be a good idea since it would be defeating the purpose of the Dravidian civilizations page which is about Dravidians. Whereas, the Dravidian people is nothing more than a propaganda proof page on whether they exist or not. Wiki Raja 06:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear the Dravidian people article is in bad shape currently (if that is what you mean) . No doubt it will improve in due course, but that does not affect my argument per se. Hornplease 06:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Please take a look at the sections in both articles:

  Dravidian people
  # 1 Concept of the Dravidian people
   * 1.1 Racial classifications
   * 1.2 Genetic classifications
   * 1.3 Linguistic classifications
         o 1.3.1 Early arrival theory
         o 1.3.2 Late arrival theory
   * 1.4 Prominent Dravidian linguistic groups
         o 1.4.1 Geographic distribution
  # 2 Political ramifications
   * 2.1 India
   * 2.2 Sri Lanka

(The sections to the above article Dravidian people are only about theories, classifications, and political ramifications)

  Indo-Aryans
   * 1 Pre-Vedic Indo-Aryans
   * 2 Vedic Aryans
   * 3 Antiquity
   * 4 Middle Kingdoms
   * 5 Contemporary Indo-Aryans
         o 5.1 Hindustani communities
         o 5.2 Roma and Sinti
   * 6 Indo-Aryan peoples
         o 6.1 Ancient
         o 6.2 Modern
   * 7 Notes
   * 8 References
   * 9 See also

(The sections to the above article Indo-Aryans show the history, kingdoms, antiquity, etc. about these groups, which is very similar to the article Dravidian civilizations)

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with the two articles in the boxes above in comparison with each other? Dravidian civilizations should stay. It is about the civilizations and their cultural heritage, history, and the arts. Dravidian people is strictly about proving whether that the actual people exist or not. Wiki Raja 06:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Now User:Sarvagnya is making a joke out of this by removing parts of the article from Dravidian people here and here. So now, according to user:Sarvagnya Dravidians only exist in India and no where else. So, what about the Tamils of Sri Lanka that was just deleted? Do they not exist now? Furthermore, this user has just removed the Category:Civilizations from the Dravidian civilizations page here. Can someone please put a lock on that page until this issue has been resolved? Thanks. Wiki Raja 07:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Did I remove Sri Lanka? If so, it was a mistake. Feel free to add it back. And do Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh sound like "only India" to you? Not to mention, I've since removed Bangladesh and Nepal coz I saw no evidence of it in that map. Sarvagnya 07:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

One more thing, since you have stated that nobody says that they are Dravidian, the same can be said about people not saying that they are Indo-Aryan, Mon-Khmer, Malayo-Polynesian,Meso-American, etc. even though these are names for families of related groups. Enough with these nonsensical games for one day. Wiki Raja 07:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• De-list. There seems to be some serious editorial concerns here for which the proper forum is the talk page. It is unlikely that delete will be the answer. It's likely that large amounts of material will be moved, and if it all goes then a redirect should be left and the history retained. --SmokeyJoe 08:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep as per Wiki Raja and a search in Google and Yahoo gives over 130000 results .It clearly passes WP:N ,WP:V and has WP:RS.It is subject of study in several universites.Harlowraman 08:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: POV fork and per nom --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 09:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• redirect to Dravidians as pov fork. dab (𒁳) 09:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. I am surprised that so many people have voted Keep without even reading the article or actually going through the Google scholar results that they have provided to support their vote. This article is not about "Dravidian Civilization" -- it is a fork of Dravidian people. As is evident by the Google Scholar results, the term "Dravidian civilization" is used to refer to the civilization of the proto-Dravidian people, before their miscegenation with other groups, such as Indo-Aryans. For example, the Indus Valley Civilization is considered as a candidate for a Proto-Dravidian culture by some experts, so these people call it "Dravidian civilization". All the Google scholar results for "Dravidian civilization" (or "civilisation") talk about proto-Dravidian civilization. On the other hand, this article talks about "Dravidian people" (a linguistic and cultural group in India, not a separate civilization). It is simply an aggregate of information from various articles related to the Dravidian linguistic group or South India (such as Dravidian people, Dravidian languages, Dravidian architecture etc.) Most of the article is a blatant violation of the GFDL policy, taking verbatim content from other articles without any attribution -- a simple Google search proves it. For example, "direct voyage from Aden to the South Western coast" is from Thomas the Apostle#Indian_legacy; "heralded a new chapter in South Indian" is from History of South India. utcursch | talk 10:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  So what you mean is that the article should be pruned it's essence instead of its current status? in effect you are saying fix it not delete it ? just looking for clarification. Thanks Taprobanus 12:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  There is nothing to fix, because the article is not about proto-Dravidian/pre-Aryan people. It's about Dravidian people (which already exists). There is nothing to merge, because most of the article is GFDL violation, taking large chunks of contents from other articles without attribution (I've given some examples above). If a new article has to be created on the history of Dravidian people or proto-Dravidian people, it will have to be written from scratch anyway. utcursch | talk 12:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  The attribution problems are easily fixed with statements of where they come from. It's not a unsurmountable problem. I suggest you make a note of all copied text and put it on the talk page. Mister.Manticore 14:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Merge to Dravidian people and create History of Dravidian people per Use:Hornplease Taprobanus 12:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy, strong keep. It's a valid topic in its own right, and the article, while it could use some copyediting and likely more citation, seems informative enough. I find it remarkable that there is no discussion whatsoever about the merits of this article on the article discussion page -- seemingly an important first step which anyone acting in good faith would take when considering whether or not to AfD an article. The failure to do so on the part of the user who initiated this AfD, therefore, could give rise to suspicions of bad faith or nefarious intent. deeceevoice 12:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Nefarious intent ?! If anything, this article is one hell of a WP:POINT violation. We went through a protracted deletion debate about Wikiraja's "Dravidian civilisations" template and it got deleted with an overwhelming consensus. Soon after that he got blocked for three months for socking. Now he's back and his 'template' has now become an article! And once again, he's wasting our time which ought to be counted as disruption. Sarvagnya 17:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per User:Utcursch. The article is just all about Dravidian people, which is already an existing article on its own. - KNM 13:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. This article is adequately cited to academic journals/ books. Further, it seems that the citations are not of question but if it contains WP:SYN. However, the editors fail to show how the article is WP:SYN and it is not enoguh to "take your word on it". As we search google we get 138,000 hits. Seems very notable. For the Scholar search for dravidian civilizations yields 1,820. The argument of ethnocruft is pointless here. This article is as WP:CRUFT as any other cultural history. Also it is not a proper rational for a delete as WP:CRUFT is not a policy or a guideline and even if it was it does not relate to the article at hand. Watchdogb 13:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  See my comment above. The article is not about Dravidian civilizations that those scholarly papers talk about. utcursch | talk 13:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Really ? Your comment above make no sense at all. How can you prove that this article is not about Dravidian_civilizations ? Please explain further. You current argument is like saying the String theory is not about the string theory, instead it about the make up of everything around us. Very funny. Watchdogb 15:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Also note that Dravidian People is a subset of Dravidian civilization. So if a merge is to happen, then Dravidian people should be merged into Dravidian civilization. However, that poses a new problem because Dravidian people is 17,157 kb long and Dr avian civilization is 58,787 kb. Merging would well exceed 70,000 kb. I believe that gives reason for the merged article to be made into two separate articles. I believe that is exactly why we have two seperate article rather than just one.Watchdogb 15:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason to bring up the Google scholar is because people seem to think that Dravidian Civilization is not notable. If this article is not written well, then it needs to be edited and fixed and not deleted. Watchdogb 15:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps this page should be rewritten to be about those civilizations. Constructively editing a page to improve it is something to be encouraged. Mister.Manticore 14:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

omg you got 138,000??? :-o then see how did I shinked your 6 digits into 3 digits. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 16:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and Rewrite to reflect Dravidian Civilizations. --vi5in 14:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment BTW, people, please be careful about your edits to this page. Twice I've had my addition of the Category:Civilizations to this page reverted. There is no reason to do that, and especially not any to call it POV. The proper place to dispute the contents of the article is here, but needless removal of otherwise valid categories isn't it. If this page does merit deletion, then what categories it was in becomes irrelevant, however, until then, it's hardly unreasonable to say an article that is supposed to be about a civilization belongs in that category. Really, it's a completely neutral category, not even a sign of bias. When you remove it, it looks like vandalism and POV-pushing to me. Make your case here, not by altering the page in a way that can't be considered an improvement. Mister.Manticore 14:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Fiction or not these articles deserve a place in wikipedia. They do have scholarly backing and is by far million times more scholarly than the hundreds of pokemon articles. Will anyone dare delete the pokemon articles? The point is the articles are important because it apparently has a great influence in south india and encompasses a certain philosophy and theory. The debate should not be about the truth. Is it your truth or my truth ? All the important theories deserve a fair place/space. Sinhala freedom 14:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete "Dravidian" is a linguistic group and period. There is absolutely no civilization attributed to so called "Dravidian". That's the reason this article jumps back and forth from 21st century to 2nd century!! Utcursh has already pointed this out pretty neat. Gnanapiti 14:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to back up your claim that it's nothing but a linguistic group? I think any language is going to be spoken by people. So at the least, there's a case to be made for an article about the people who speak Dravidian languages. Since people tend to have a culture/civilization, it also seems reasonable to cover that issue to some extent. What that is, well, is a decision that's not going to be best made by simple assertions, but rather by careful and diligent sourcing. Mister.Manticore 16:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply To start with, Dravidian hypothesis in Britannica which states Features of Hinduism that cannot be traced to the Rigveda are sometimes ascribed to the influence of the original inhabitants, who are often vaguely and incorrectly referred to as “Dravidians,” a term that refers to a family of languages and not an ethnic group. Gnanapiti 16:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be stating that they are often referred to in that way. That the author of the Britannica article disagrees doesn't prove that position right though. It means this is a presumably controversial situation. In which case, multiple sources are what's needed. Mister.Manticore 17:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Mr. Mister - Every linguistic group, has a 'culture'. Agreed. But 'civilization' as used in historiography? Well, even if we are charitable and assume that every a 'civilization' exists for every language, by that logic this article should be a summary article drawing from Badaga civilization+Brahui civilization+tamil civilization+telugu civilization+tulu civ+kannada civ.... Pray, tell me where are these child articles? Greek civilization for example, is NOT the 'civilization' of people who spoke the Greek language but that of people who lived and built their empire in/from Greece. That they spoke Greek is incidental. I cant think of any parallel where a linguistic group has a 'civilization' named after them and if there is, it must be for very good reasons.
• All the results in Google scholar which refer to 'Dravidian civilization(s)' only do so when they're hypothesising/discussing about the language that a particular culture/civilization spoke! They're not discussing this mythical civilization that exists only in Wikiraja's imagination.
• For example, when they talk about a DC in the context of Harappa, they're just speculating that the people of the Harappan civilization spoke a Dravidian language. Thats all. Sarvagnya 17:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, that may be your interpretation of the sources, but it's not conclusive. And as far as I'm concerned, I have objection to the other articles you mention. If we don't have one right now, well Misplaced Pages is incomplete, a lot of things aren't included yet. Mister.Manticore 17:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment In regards to KNM's comment on the article page here when he removed the Category he stated that "there is no Dravidian civilization, and this article is just all about Dravidians". Hello????? That's what this article is about, Dravidians. I don't quite understand your comment. It's like disputing that the Polynesian people article should be removed because it is all about the Polynesian people. This is also not solely about India. If it were about India, then I would be talking about the Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, and the Mon-Khmer groups. If that is what you are implying, please read the name of the title before commenting. Wiki Raja 16:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Yes, thats exactly my point. And I am glad that you are also agreeing that this whole article is all about Dravidians. Thank god! When we already have Dravidians why do we need this new article?? Dravidians is redirecting now to Dravidian people. So this article, Dravidian civilizations will have to be either Deleted or redirected into Dravidians. Hope you got it. Thanks - KNM 16:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as per User:Utcursch -- ¿Amar៛16:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

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